Have you played Ziggs? I've been experimenting, and yes I tried maxing the minefield early/first (see the note above about 1000 damage to a single champion or whatever, though I was arguing that it's unlikely to work).
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thestopsign
Member
https://www.youtube.com/user/PSUPeSports?blend=1&ob=0
This is a link to my first IvyLoL team. My team isn't great, I didn't play great, but we picked well and won. Was really fun watching through it again.
This is a link to my first IvyLoL team. My team isn't great, I didn't play great, but we picked well and won. Was really fun watching through it again.
You're describing a lot of perfect scenarios there. That's like calling Nunu's ult OP because it CAN do a lot of damage when fully channeled.
Yes, the mines can do a ton of damage if the enemy hero runs in a circle and hits all 11. Yes, the ult does have a 0.9 ratio and 5500 range. But neither of those are guaranteed damage and in fact, anyone with a brain will be able to avoid a lot of mine patches and anyone with any sort of dash/MS buff can avoid the core hit of the ultimate.
Honestly, I don't think Ziggs is too OP or UP. It depends a lot on the utility of the team you're facing - if they are dumb enough to get baited into the mines and satchel, then you'll have a lot of success. If they stand back and last hit, it will be hard for Ziggs to win 1v1 without poking them to death and then ulting to finish.
I did play Ziggs as a solo top VS Irelia the other day and that was fun. She must have not played against a Ziggs before because she would jump to me, I'd throw mines down and run away, satchel in front of her to knock her back into the mines, then pound away with Q + autos. She couldn't get close to me without taking way more damage than she could deal.
But ya, I find he really peters out at the end, when his only truly usable skills are his Q and his ult. If you are getting close enough in team fights to E or R effectively, you're putting yourself in danger.
Orbis Tabula
Member
I've been playing Ziggs basically nonstop since he came out. I haven't been doing terrible, but not that great either, barring a few really good games. I always build him with two dorans rings, then getting morello's followed by ionian boots. Once I've hit that 39% CDR, I go for rabadons. His ults cooldown at level 3 with full CDR is awesome, and I found that I can perform really well in team fights when things go well. Also, the range on his bombs is great if you can master the timing on the bounces. I love him, even if he isn't quite top tier.
Ziggs case is that he's the first of the "look here's my weak spot" type of heroes, just like Riot's designer said in a forum post when Ziggs was coming out. So until they come up with new heroes which don't have all the same kind of abilities like a shield or self heal etc. and do have a obvious weak spot (Ziggs' being weak cc and a hard to pull of escape) he's gonna feel different and risky to play. But yeah, bombs and risky come in the same package. That is the hunch I've got from seeing Ziggs gameplay.
Inskipp
Member
And I disagree with the majority of your points. You're basically describing how it's hard to land his skills, which cost a lot of mana and that he has no proper CC.Blizzard said:
The first two point are negligible, as they boil down to your ability to aim and conserve mana, which are very basic things that should be factored in and controlled in the first place(which is not very hard to do with Ziggs). The last point.... Well, if you're looking for cc, then you're looking at the wrong champ. Ziggs is about poke and zone- control, not crowd- control initiation.
You're not supposed to max it.Blizzard said:
I've never seen anyone blow up all the mines, but I've seen plenty of AD- carries (and some mages), both by my hand and by other people, getting blown to shit just by touching half the mines. It chips off so much of their health that it just boils down to picking them off, which is really easy to do afterwards with them being slowed and all.Blizzard said:
It also serves as a zoning tool, with which you can veer off chasers, or block escape routes. It has a very long casting range as well (900 units), so it's pretty easy to position correctly while remaining in a safe distance.
Ziggs outranges all of these characters (Except Xerath), and he is more than capable of trading with all of them in the lane.Blizzard said:
Only one that might pose a real threat is Kassadin, due to his inherent design. But before 6, he's free game to Ziggs.
Ziggs is supposed to be a poke champion. He is one of the longest range champs in the game.
The new meta is for champs to have an easily defined strength and weakness. For Ziggs it's his lack of reliable CC.
IsayFever
Member
Poke comps still exist and are quite powerful.
There's not much new about champions without CC. As long as the rest of the team accommodates for it this isn't much of a weakness either.
And what I'm suggesting is that if you poke often, you will be burning crazy mana (especially with 70-100 mana Q), and may have difficulty farming. What I'm also suggesting is that if someone can get in range to use a stun or silence, Ziggs can't do anything besides walk backwards, which means you should eat full spell combos from several of the champions I mentioned. I'm suggesting it's a matchup issue. Maybe it's possible to poke with Q, have enough spellvamp to heal yourself (or stay so far back you don't take damage), kill minions fast enough that they don't damage your tower, and do all of this fast enough that the opposite AP mid doesn't heal it back or outfarm you. I just don't see that being feasible for most of the common powerful AP mids. If you have specific rune/mastery/item/strategy suggestions for accomplishing this, by all means share them.
Why are you fighting AD carries mid? Or are you going to another lane? If you're in another lane we need to clarify that, since that certainly changes the discussion. "blown to shit" is not a numerical value either. I did some quick calculations, and if you manage to get 300 AP by early game, keep the minefield at level 3 (which is maybe higher than you are suggesting), and the enemy hits six of your mines, I think it's 500-700 damage before reduction? That's still a lot of conditions, and I seriously want to know how you are getting people to run over 5 mines in a row. Even if you drop the field on top of someone they should only hit the middle and outer edge, right?
How can Ziggs trade with someone if he's silenced or stunned, given the 6 or so AP mid champions I just mentioned that have that capability? Are you suggesting he needs to attack quickly before the silence/stun happens for trading, or just that it's possible to avoid it in most cases (which wouldn't make it a trade)?
Indeed, I saw it in recent matches. I'm just saying what Morello said.
As long as they've got the strength to offset it. I'll be interested to see where Ziggs lands once Riot is done with his birthing pain tinkering.
I think I agree with this. If there's a way to do enough damage without getting instakilled (Annie/LeBlanc/Malz/Kassadin combo), then he could work by carefully last-hitting and shooting Q with mana regen items.
Inskipp
Member
And if you hit with all that poke, you will do crazy damage. So make it count.Blizzard said:
Where did I say I was fighting them mid? I was referring to skirmish- combatBlizzard said:
Again you're going off with the notion that it's hard to land his skills.Blizzard said:
Also, you're describing as if his mines are there for raw damage. I personally don't care if I hit with all of his mines, or just two of them. Even one is enough to apply the slow effect, which pretty much guarantees my hits with the following Q- spam. Which again does plenty of damage on its own.
By not walking into their range? Like Dance said, Ziggs has one of the longest ranges in the game.Blizzard said:
You seem to be rotating these very simple concepts or unfinished thoughts in your descriptions. Unless you can provide me a replay of your gameplay with Ziggs, I am not interested in continuing this discussion.
Ziggs is definitely in an awkward spot. His kit is odd enough that he's very unique which should make him automatically desirable, however, his stats are weird. His Q and his passive are extremely strong which essentially means that pre-level 6 he becomes a strong counter to almost any AP mid, with a few exceptions. All of his other skills are fine. If anything, they need to lower the scaling on his Q and the damage from his passive early game.
Oh, Sona, by the way. No skill, no risk support.
My exile was a lengthy one but i have made my glorious return. All shall once again fear my rage!
dave is ok
aztek is ok
I think Caitlyn and Miss Fortune aren't different enough in terms of art so one of them.
Ashe and Vayne are different enough from both of them, but 'pirate hunter' and 'sheriff' are kind of generic.
"crazy damage" means 20-40 more damage than Xerath's Q if I'm reading the wiki correctly, and Xerath's hits everything in the line. I'm kinda busy and haven't taken the time yet to compare AP mid Q DPS so I'll concede that maybe you're correct on this. It looks like it should be perhaps 450 damage by the early teen levels depending on magic resist.
The vast majority of my analysis was based off of playing Ziggs as AP mid versus other common AP mid champions. I'm sorry if that wasn't clear. =/ I tried to make it clear that I was suggesting the matchups could be unfavorable. You could of course argue he works well in another lane.Inskipp said:
How? The section you quoted is in relation to one specific skill, the minefield. What other skills did I mention in that section?Inskipp said:
The reason I mentioned the mines for damage is because you said "His mines can deal 1000+ damage (not exaggerating) to a single target", something both I and EXGN responded to.Inskipp said:
I agree that playing poke style could be feasible as long as the enemy champion can't absorb/shield/heal, or push the lane too quickly, or stay out of range themselves. I would need to experiment more with Q specifically.Inskipp said:
There's no need to be rude about it. You brought up the misleading ult information (it does less damage in the middle which you did not mention), you were talking about heavy minefield damage (which both I and EXGN responded to) only to followup by saying you didn't care about minefield damage, and you seem to be talking about skirmishing rather than AP mid matchups. I took a good bit of time to look up numbers and run calculations for AP mids, and your response phrasing of "blown to shit" didn't really lend itself to numerical comparisons and arguments.Inskipp said:
So I'm getting kind of weird mixed messages about what exactly you're discussing -- AP mid matchup feasibility, or skirmishes, or poking with a lane partner, or what.
If you'd rather not discuss it that's fine. I welcome general playstyle suggestions and numerical comparisons, and I agree with Volimar that I want to see where he ends up once Riot finishes experimenting. My personal theory is that he will be subpar, especially if nerfed, but I'd be happy to be wrong. I think several other people in this thread who have played Ziggs have mentioned that he's either fun or "meh" but ultimately probably not as good as other AP mid options.
Thanks for the noob tips everyone. I'm probably going to try to main one of the two free heroes from the OP to start. Alistar looks cool. I think I'll probably be more into a melee or AOE type character.
The trouble I was having before was all the targeted attacks while also keeping my ranged guy away from people.
I'm going to join the GAF chat room and probably just play a bunch vs the bots like suggested.
My biggest question is with all the heroes how do you pick one?
Edit: So it looks like the free champions from the OP are just skins? That doesn't sound nearly as good.
The trouble I was having before was all the targeted attacks while also keeping my ranged guy away from people.
I'm going to join the GAF chat room and probably just play a bunch vs the bots like suggested.
My biggest question is with all the heroes how do you pick one?
Edit: So it looks like the free champions from the OP are just skins? That doesn't sound nearly as good.
MultiCore
Member
Trist and Alistar are unlocked if you don't already have them when you Like or Subcribe on FB or YT.
clg.na and clg.eu scrimming
http://static.ec.own3d.tv/player/Own3dPlayerV2_77.swf?config=liveembedcfg/10955;autoPlay=true
http://static.ec.own3d.tv/player/Own3dPlayerV2_77.swf?config=liveembedcfg/10955;autoPlay=true
Happy to hear that they are more then just free skins.
So while waiting for the updates I decided to read up on general roles/strategies. I think I will start out playing Alistar as support -- I'll be able to play melee without having to worry about last hits or a specific build AND I can hang out with a carry who hopefully knows what they are doing so I can see how to play.
From this weeks free champs, Wukong and Maokai are the most interesting to me.
So while waiting for the updates I decided to read up on general roles/strategies. I think I will start out playing Alistar as support -- I'll be able to play melee without having to worry about last hits or a specific build AND I can hang out with a carry who hopefully knows what they are doing so I can see how to play.
From this weeks free champs, Wukong and Maokai are the most interesting to me.
dave is ok
aztek is ok
Alistar is awesome. If you're playing support. Take Pulverize at level 1, then take Roar if your carry is low at 2 (if not, take headbutt) and max out your E first.
You can literally spam the first couple levels of E on cooldown with a Dorans Ring without losing any mana. Also: Learn to headbutt/pulverize combo.
SouthernDragon
Member
As for how we pick our champions?
I found the champs I like just through experimentation. For example, I love Maokai but would never have tried him out due to his art. He's an excellent tank, though, and I'm glad I did.
On the other hand, I thought playing Akali would be easy and fun, but I did terribly with her. I might try her again at some point, but for now...
I found the champs I like just through experimentation. For example, I love Maokai but would never have tried him out due to his art. He's an excellent tank, though, and I'm glad I did.
On the other hand, I thought playing Akali would be easy and fun, but I did terribly with her. I might try her again at some point, but for now...
Orbis Tabula
Member
soraka
Agreed
Speaking of jungle, I need to just buckle down and learn Lee Sin and Shyvana. Sure LS was nerfed, but I need more options (since I'm obsessed with J4 atm). I used to just play GP and I really do love his ability to impact every lane, but I was getting tired of him as I did Fiddlesticks before him.
For J4 jungle I've been starting out Pendant and going Philo/HoG/Merc Treads. From there it varies. If towers are still up, I'll probably get a Wriggle's and start roaming between clears, otherwise I'll go for a Frozen Mallet or Trinity depending on if I need to build tank or more dps. Then I balance MR/Armor to the enemy damage or build AD DPS.
I like that he is versatile, but I'm debating whether or not I should just start Wriggle's and forego GP5 items when jungling. (For top I'd prob keep the GP5) Also, I can't decide if I like going 21 in Offense or Defense. In general I like Offense more since I need to be a threat for them to care about getting stuck in my ult, but if I have enough team dps then just trapping and slowing them for my team works too. Anyone play J4 and have any tips?
For J4 jungle I've been starting out Pendant and going Philo/HoG/Merc Treads. From there it varies. If towers are still up, I'll probably get a Wriggle's and start roaming between clears, otherwise I'll go for a Frozen Mallet or Trinity depending on if I need to build tank or more dps. Then I balance MR/Armor to the enemy damage or build AD DPS.
I like that he is versatile, but I'm debating whether or not I should just start Wriggle's and forego GP5 items when jungling. (For top I'd prob keep the GP5) Also, I can't decide if I like going 21 in Offense or Defense. In general I like Offense more since I need to be a threat for them to care about getting stuck in my ult, but if I have enough team dps then just trapping and slowing them for my team works too. Anyone play J4 and have any tips?
This. Playing ad carry against soraka is hell
Ahri, graves, fizz. All Tanky run away pussies.
Mister Wilhelm
Member
Vladamir is so anti-fun....
As a player, I would get rid of Udyr. I don't like playing as him and I hate playing against him.
From a balance standpoint, I'd get rid of Ahri. Between the triple dashes and the ranged taunt, her kit is just way too strong.
As someone that likes watching pro matches, I'd get rid of Sona. Maybe it's just the result of a lack of traditional supports, but she is picked almost every game and I'm just sick of seeing her.
From a balance standpoint, I'd get rid of Ahri. Between the triple dashes and the ranged taunt, her kit is just way too strong.
As someone that likes watching pro matches, I'd get rid of Sona. Maybe it's just the result of a lack of traditional supports, but she is picked almost every game and I'm just sick of seeing her.
Vanillalite
Ask me about the GAF Notebook
Probably Sona or Soraka... it also would fuck with the meta a bit not having one of those two in the game... and an extra ban slot...
Beyond those two which seem obvious I'd say Rammus.
ElectraStar
Junior Member
HE SAID ONE YO!
But I agreed about Ahri. She's hard to counter in mid right now.
Also, in case you guys didn't see it the first time,
J Rizzle and I are gonna tear it up with NYC-GAF on the 18th. So if you're in the area and want time away from the computer, join us!!
So I played a couple custom bot games with Alistar. I think I got a pretty good idea of how to play him and what items to get. I almost have enough IP for another cheap champion, but I'm not sure who to get with it.
I have the two free ones from the OP Alistar and Tristan or whatever her name is. I was thinking Ashe because she seems cool and easy to play, but if she fills the same roll as Trist then maybe I should go with something else...
Also, thanks to everyone in the chat who was giving me pro tips. I'm gonna probably start Coop vs bots tomorrow.
I have the two free ones from the OP Alistar and Tristan or whatever her name is. I was thinking Ashe because she seems cool and easy to play, but if she fills the same roll as Trist then maybe I should go with something else...
Also, thanks to everyone in the chat who was giving me pro tips. I'm gonna probably start Coop vs bots tomorrow.
XeroSauce
Member
Very interesting answers. I'm still surprised Ahri gets hate because I feel like it's out of nowhere, but that's been discussed before.
Also surprised that Sona is disliked. She IS a faceroll champion but if you remove her and Soraka, who else do you have that can support like they do?
Also surprised that Sona is disliked. She IS a faceroll champion but if you remove her and Soraka, who else do you have that can support like they do?
davidpdong
Member
sonas problem is that she is just superior to all the other supports. Need poke? sona. Sustain? Sona. AOE CC? Sona.
Soraka promotes a passive game which is what riot DOESNT want.
Ahri is just really frustrating cause she has 3 dashes.
Soraka promotes a passive game which is what riot DOESNT want.
Ahri is just really frustrating cause she has 3 dashes.
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