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Left 4 Dead 2 |OT| The South Rises Again
- Thread starter ClovingWestbrook
- Start date
vertopci said:
The "community" can be huge or large. I know a lot of people (relatively) who don't like the mod. But apparently majority rules and it doesn't matter what naysayers think. It's more that "here's a group of people that tested it out and they like it so they're totally the community."
You're again drawing imaginary lines of what's competitive and what isn't. The game is based on score. How do you win, score. No matter how many mods you have in the game, you win based on score. And your last sentence there is YOUR OPINON. Not a fact.
Also, pretty much the majority (or all, I'm not familiar with the online here) of 360 owners CANNOT ACCESS these mods. So they're not competitive at all, according to your rules. Or is it just how much they can work with? Because you can't backtrack, you said it's not competitive for the regular setup of the game. All those 360 owners are just non competitive and don't even need to mouth the word "pro" according to your rules. You need to accept that like said before, different levels of competition, rather than " my way or the highway"
That last part is a failure of an argument, I don't need to go to extremes to prove how useless it is. And this is a discussion forum, if you're detailing outlining points of these mods, I can talk about them. Shitty games get shitty review scores, but I haven't played them so I can't talk!11
Good for them. Also, I don't have to prove that last thing to you, it's not my point. Besides, I didn't say they WEREN'T good in all setups, I was stating a basic idea.
Twig may have been too insulting when he mentioned it, but you are totally being an elitist about the subject of competitive L4D.
PillowKnight
Member
Volcynika said:
The bottom line is that with med kits and no tanks every single competitive team would make it to the safe room after a jolly waltz. That fact makes the game very dull to play. We've been through this before though, you're gonna claim that competitive teams need to try harder and they simply need to reach some imaginary infected skill level.
Are there even any tournaments for 360 l4d2? Even so, i'd imagine you don't need to nerf survivors when you've got crane controls.
PillowKnight said:
Ah, the old "if this game isn't fun for me (aka dull), it isn't competitive!" Bad argument.
And of course the dismissal of the 360 version.
Try again.
Here's a fact: Trying to say this mod agreed on by the "community" (quotemarks are important) is competitive and vanilla isn't makes you an arrogant elitist.
Volcynika said:
No, it's more like the people who play the most and therefore know the most about the game and BALANCE are the community. And they should be the only ones suggesting changes for balance for obvious reasons.
If you don't like it, don't use it but the config increases the skill gap between tiers and balances everything out which is essential for competitive play.
A game where you walk thru a park is really competitive am I right?
I would say the x360 version isn't competitive for the simple reason that there are almost no tournaments for it. And funny enough, some teams on 360 for the original L4D actually did try to play without picking up any extra kits or tier 2. Coincidence? I think not.
Also there are not different levels of competition. They hold one tourney, not a tourney for lower level competition and another for mid level and another for high level. When it comes to competition, there is one level and everyone is lumped in there so competitively speaking, everyone plays on the same exact level/config.
Not it's not a failure of an argument. You haven't even given the configs a try and yet you are saying they are not needed and do stupid things.
I remember a lot of the regular gaffers being not so sure about FrusMod when I used it for the first time. But unlike you, they actually gave it a try, and what do you know? They loved it.
Guess what? You can't be competitive and just straight up ignore the better teams. They are the ones who know the game the most and thus they know far more about balance than you and I. Saying their opinions on balance is just stupid of you UNLESS YOU HAPPEN TO BE ON THEIR LEVEL. Are you on their level? No, so your opinions on how to balance L4D2 competitively is wrong.
Volcynika said:
Guess what? Without these mods, there wouldn't even be a competitive community for L4D.
Also thinking you know more then the community about balances changes when you clearly don't makes you an arrogant elitist, not us.
I can give clear reasons for most of the changes, but you can't give a single decent reason why most of those changes suck competitively. So why don't you go on and address that issue? Oh, right because you can't.
PillowKnight
Member
So you're trying to say my argument is bad because it's bad. Okay.Volcynika said:
And some insults, i'm gonna go play some games.
vertopci said:
Ah, defining even more imaginary lines. Playing "the most" is relative. How many hours? 20 a week? 30 a week? Gotta be more clear with these requirements to be part of the illustrious "community"
It doesn't matter how easy it is for YOU. Everyone that plays the game can be competitive. Every single person. No matter how they play, it can be competitive. Just because you are "too pro" for certain settings doesn't make it not competitive.
:lol No tournaments! Not competitive! Again, more requirements to be competitive. Yes there are different levels. Not everything has to be omg super official pro bitches that's how we roll. User made tournaments can be competitive. Hell we have these random tournaments on GAF for fighting games and the like, and I sure as hell say they're pretty competitive. They're just a group of people organizing something together to play and challenge each other. Competition and all that.
Yes, it is a failure of an argument. I can discuss the effects of a mod without actually playing it if I know all the details (which are posted a good bit here)
When did I ignore them? I know there are people better than me. I didn't say their opinion on balance was stupid, stop putting words into my mouth (another bad way to argue). They have their way of balance, other people have their own. Again, different levels which you cannot and will not accept.
Well your argument is bad. And I wasn't insulting you, I was stating a general fact. But if you took it as an insult, that's more telling of you than me.
I'm gonna go slam my head into a brick wall since you completely and utterly miss the point of anything I'm posting, even calling me an elitist when I'm anything but :lol. Stay up on that pedestal and don't bother the people down here, oh man on the highest of horses. (Hint: The answer is there are different setups for competition, but then you'll just say "NUH UH U R WRONG AND I AM RITE I AM THE GREETEST")
Volcynika said:
1. There is one level of competition no matter what genre it is, from FPS to fighting to RTS. Like I said before, they don't hold tournaments for low level and another for high level. There is ONE tournament and the point of said tournament is to the find the best team. Therefore using a config that will create MORE tiers of skills is best from a competitive standpoint as that is the best way of attempting to find the best team. That is the point of the CEVO and confogl configs.
There may be different skill levels but in competitive play what skill evel you are on doesn't matter AT ALL.
2. Playing games with the same group is not playing competitively.
vertopci said:
I don't go actively looking for L4D2 tourneys, but I do know that I'm not referring to skill levels, I'm referring to the setup of the actual game, aka the use of mods. I'm saying that is is completely possible and still competitive to have a vanilla tourney.
drkOne
Member
I think Vol's point is that the game still feels competitive/challenging enough even on vanilla settings for a lot of people.
CEVO/Frusmod wouldn't make the score margin between those people bigger, only games shorter.
Not that they want to be tourney-like competitive.
At least that's how I see it. Not sure if it makes sense.
CEVO/Frusmod wouldn't make the score margin between those people bigger, only games shorter.
Not that they want to be tourney-like competitive.
At least that's how I see it. Not sure if it makes sense.
vertopci said:
Like I said, arguing with you goes nowhere. I tried to argue with you and you completely ignored me last time. You seemed to think I am Twig. When we DO give you reasons, you literally ignore them and pretend we don't.
"Twig and co" is pretty awesome though, I'm keeping it.
Honestly, I have better things to do than behave like a child on the internet, and I'm sure you do too. I think we'll just have to agree to disagree as opposed to shitting up this otherwise decent thread. No hard feelings!
Fucking awesome game tonight guys :lol
Sorry but last time I checked, saying something is stupid is not a valid reason.
They used the Vanilla CEVO tourney to decide how to balance the CEVO config. Like I said before they don't make changes for the sake of making them. They actually get community input and watch games to decide what needs to happen in the config. Kind of hard to balance things out when you don't know what needs changing from the vanilla version isn't it?
notsol337 said:
Sorry but last time I checked, saying something is stupid is not a valid reason.
Daigoro said:
They used the Vanilla CEVO tourney to decide how to balance the CEVO config. Like I said before they don't make changes for the sake of making them. They actually get community input and watch games to decide what needs to happen in the config. Kind of hard to balance things out when you don't know what needs changing from the vanilla version isn't it?
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
vertopci said:
Honestly, the only reason we we won that was because of being completely prepared for the tank in map 2. That ending was fucking wild.
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
Yeah, I really wish there was a mod that would like, kick a person in the head when the tank spawns on the second round of a map.
Then it'd be fair and more competitive.
Then it'd be fair and more competitive.
morningbus said:
The tank kicks me in the head pretty often D:
Edit: Also, as far as the big vs. argument going on, what do you guys rooting for vanilla really like about it. What's being taken away that normally makes your matches more fun.
Because I've seen a lot of arguing about abstract notions of competitiveness and whatnot, but (and maybe I just missed this) what about having health packs and whatnot do you enjoy?
To give my side of things, I absolutely hate working as an infected to get someone into the gray just to have them heal up again with a kit. It completely invalidates what my team and I have spent half the map trying to accomplish. I also like the sense of urgency that just pills puts on you as a survivor--it adds, in my opinion, a nice sense of urgency to the whole affair.
dragonlife
Member
Sooo...how's that weather, guys? Blindsided by Tanks in Hard Rain recently?
Red Scarlet
Member
I think whenever vert mentions 'the competitive scene', he is talking about the players/teams that actually play in the various tournaments for money/prizes. The CEVO tournament used the default settings so at least one tournament would, and there weren't any completed mods or anything. Newegg uses a different one, but that tournament recently started..CEVO's started a couple weeks after the game came out.
I didn't discover it, but I tried it out and it works okay: skip the roller coaster event/~65% of it.
I did fraps the Swamp Fever vs we played if people without the game are interested in seeing the changes to the game in action:
http://redscarlet.paragonsigma.com/L4D/L4D2 New Cevo Config First Play-Swamp Fever 1.avi
http://redscarlet.paragonsigma.com/L4D/L4D2 New Cevo Config First Play-Swamp Fever 2.avi
http://redscarlet.paragonsigma.com/L4D/L4D2 New Cevo Config First Play-Swamp Fever 3.avi
http://redscarlet.paragonsigma.com/L4D/L4D2 New Cevo Config First Play-Swamp Fever 4.avi
I didn't discover it, but I tried it out and it works okay: skip the roller coaster event/~65% of it.
I did fraps the Swamp Fever vs we played if people without the game are interested in seeing the changes to the game in action:
http://redscarlet.paragonsigma.com/L4D/L4D2 New Cevo Config First Play-Swamp Fever 1.avi
http://redscarlet.paragonsigma.com/L4D/L4D2 New Cevo Config First Play-Swamp Fever 2.avi
http://redscarlet.paragonsigma.com/L4D/L4D2 New Cevo Config First Play-Swamp Fever 3.avi
http://redscarlet.paragonsigma.com/L4D/L4D2 New Cevo Config First Play-Swamp Fever 4.avi
SundaySounds
Banned
Stallion Free said:
When the game autokilled me as tank during the finale, that was some bullshit.
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
Red Scarlet said:
Whoa, that is some Metroid-level sequence breaking. Though I don't think it'd work too well in Vs.
Red Scarlet
Member
morningbus said:
I dunno, I was watching a match uploaded today about people making a jump on Dark Carnival 1 (the one where you jump over a bus or something) being called 'illegal', and the other team saying a team skipped the roller coaster earlier being legal, so I looked it up. Maybe they just did the ~65% skip on the first hill though instead of the entire event.
vertopci said:I hope you highlighted panda bear making us lose the game
I still <3 you panda
I don't add any crazy text or anything, so I guess watch Panda take over as tank on SF3 or something.
As for your incap, I ran and tossed the pipe and it bounced near you, so I gave you my pills for you to take before it went off, but too much was going on at the time.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
SundaySounds said:
It did try to make it up to you by giving you the next tank :lol
vertopci said:
maybe obvious to someone who is seems to be so wrapped up in it.
it was not obvious to me. thats why i asked the question. seemed like a contradiction until you explained why it was that all of the tourneys were vanilla.
no real reason to throw the whole "it should be obvious, DUH" in there unless you're just trying to be a dick about it.
thomastoad
Neo Member
Having not read a lot of the arguments in this thread, I agree with Vert that the concept competitively in terms of rules should be to clearly distinguish the difference between a good team and a bad team, the more you muddle the rules in terms of clear distinction between teams the more vague it becomes. Valve has created the vanilla game for public usage, they NEVER(and i mean never) regard their rules and balancing issues towards the argument of competitive play(see cs 1.6and even tf2 to an extent), as they shouldn't.
Red Scarlet
Member
Well please stop being so abrasive in your arguing. This goes for everyone.
PillowKnight
Member
I got a virus shortly after clicking that first link. Dunno if it's a coincidence or not(the file played fine)Red Scarlet said:
dragonlife
Member
Hmm...PillowKnight said:
I didn't get anything. Maybe just an extreme coincidence?
Red Scarlet
Member
Valve made its version of competitive L4D/L4D2 in vs and scavenge mode. They didn't/probably won't really tweak it any more. Why? Because the modders have always done so instead.
The players that play the game for money and prizes are really, really good. Nobody here that I know of is even a member of any teams that play in those tournaments (vert and his friends did for part 1 one time iirc). For those players, the out-of-the-box version of vs is "too easy" for them..it more or less relies on a disaster for a team to get wiped. What that means is the game basically comes down to who did more damage for the tiebreaker 25 points deciding the winner a majority of games.
Like in the first game, the modders/competitive teams worked on making the game a bit harder (more less easy than outright hard) by removing the medkits, then including tanks all the time (and removing prelighting), then getting rid of tier 2 weapons until the finale (because the auto shotty really was too powerful/useful..it's harder to skeet a hunter w/ a normal shotty than an auto). It's basically turning the game from 'normal' to 'hard', and they enjoyed the limitations not having uberstuff provided. It's similar to playing a Mega Man game with just the Mega Buster, or trying a low level game in away. After hundreds of games where eventually they get through unless something catastrophic happens, the competitive folks found a way to spice things up.
Both games are competitive whenever a vs or scavenge game is played. Some people are perfectly fine with the default settings. Some people are more into a tougher mode, those mainly being the people playing for money and prizes. Both configs are fun to various people, just like Volcynika doesn't like what Frustian's mod/the new "cevo mod" offers for what he wants to get out of the game, finalists from the tournaments enjoy what the mods offer instead.
IOW neither one is inherently better than the other, different types of players find enjoyment from different configs, just like in any game (do you start from level 1 or 9 on tetris?). There's little point in going back and forth about how one or the other is shitty, really.
I got some virus warning earlier today when I went to a thread here, hopefully I didn't get something. My scanners don't come up with anything.
The players that play the game for money and prizes are really, really good. Nobody here that I know of is even a member of any teams that play in those tournaments (vert and his friends did for part 1 one time iirc). For those players, the out-of-the-box version of vs is "too easy" for them..it more or less relies on a disaster for a team to get wiped. What that means is the game basically comes down to who did more damage for the tiebreaker 25 points deciding the winner a majority of games.
Like in the first game, the modders/competitive teams worked on making the game a bit harder (more less easy than outright hard) by removing the medkits, then including tanks all the time (and removing prelighting), then getting rid of tier 2 weapons until the finale (because the auto shotty really was too powerful/useful..it's harder to skeet a hunter w/ a normal shotty than an auto). It's basically turning the game from 'normal' to 'hard', and they enjoyed the limitations not having uberstuff provided. It's similar to playing a Mega Man game with just the Mega Buster, or trying a low level game in away. After hundreds of games where eventually they get through unless something catastrophic happens, the competitive folks found a way to spice things up.
Both games are competitive whenever a vs or scavenge game is played. Some people are perfectly fine with the default settings. Some people are more into a tougher mode, those mainly being the people playing for money and prizes. Both configs are fun to various people, just like Volcynika doesn't like what Frustian's mod/the new "cevo mod" offers for what he wants to get out of the game, finalists from the tournaments enjoy what the mods offer instead.
IOW neither one is inherently better than the other, different types of players find enjoyment from different configs, just like in any game (do you start from level 1 or 9 on tetris?). There's little point in going back and forth about how one or the other is shitty, really.
PillowKnight said:
I got some virus warning earlier today when I went to a thread here, hopefully I didn't get something. My scanners don't come up with anything.
SundaySounds
Banned
Stallion Free said:
Which I failed.
vertopci said:Ok
Diagoro, forgive me for being a dick. Let's go eat cookies and milk sometime. But only if the cookies are Chips Ahoy. The blue bag one. Not the crappy red bag ones.
You buy cookies that come in bags? tha fuck?
SundaySounds
Banned
vertopci said:
I don't know what to call that! Bag is the only word at the moment I can think of for it!
lmao. I wonder if anyone actually buys cookies on amazon...
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
Dude, I can get a 48-pack of cookies for 19.23 if I sign up for automatic, recurring shipping?
Someone fetch me my wallet, I think it might be buried under 40 pounds of ass fat.
Someone fetch me my wallet, I think it might be buried under 40 pounds of ass fat.
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
Call it a field of containment.
morningbus said:
Make sure to grab some cheap milk as well: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00032G1S0/?tag=neogaf0e-20
Make sure to check the reviews on the milk too! It's top tier milk!