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[Twig]

That's the one complaint I can never, ever possibly understand.

Agreed.

 

[speculawyer]

Valve games sell significantly better on the PC than they do on consoles.

Well, I guess I'm totally wrong on that one. Valve is an exception to the general rule I guess. (I mean look at Borderlands and Modern Warfare 2 . . . with those 2, the consoles dwarf the PC version.)

This would certainly explain why Valve has been so dismissive of the PS3 . . . they are PC centric company and consoles are just gravy.

 

[Shake Appeal]

That's the one complaint I can never, ever possibly understand.

When I turn around on 360, it feels like I'm, well, turning around: it takes about the length of time it would take me to turn around in reality. When I turn around using a keyboard and mouse, it feels so quick and so precise, with so little sense of human momentum, that it takes me out of it. My character should have whiplash. In general, my aim twitches about like I'm a laser-guided robot on speed.

There's absolutely no question that keyboard and most is the quickest and most efficient control method we have for FPS games... but sometimes it leaves me feeling like I'm controlling a precision video camera, and not a character in a world.

 

[Flib]

It's also especially true for Left 4 Dead 2 that the PC version looks and runs SIGNIFICANTLY better than the 360 version.

 

[gregor7777]

Well, I guess I'm totally wrong on that one. Valve is an exception to the general rule I guess. (I mean look at Borderlands and Modern Warfare 2 . . . with those 2, the consoles dwarf the PC version.)

This would certainly explain why Valve has been so dismissive of the PS3 . . . they are PC centric company and consoles are just gravy.

Hell, even the first L4D on the 360 was outsourced, was it not?

IMO, if Valve would release Steam's sales numbers I think people would have a completely different view of the PC as a gaming platform.

 

[Twig]

Well, I guess I'm totally wrong on that one. Valve is an exception to the general rule I guess. (I mean look at Borderlands and Modern Warfare 2 . . . with those 2, the consoles dwarf the PC version.)

They're also console games ported to PC (one of which no doubt suffered from all the hubris and bullshit). Valve games are PC games ported to the console.

IMO, if Valve would release Steam's sales numbers I think people would have a completely different view of the PC as a gaming platform.

Basically.

 

[D4Danger]

Wow, that's an amazing management/workplace philosophy, really.* So it's basically a popularity contest (as regards what employees have the most fun working on) that determines what gets done? This totally explains the whole "it'll ship when it's done" thing. Valve isn't publicly held, is it?

*(I'm not knocking that approach, actually - work should always be fun.)

seems that way. I wish I had episode 3 as much as anyone but between these half-life games we got Portal, Left 4 Dead and TF2 so you can't really complain. They know what they're doing.

 

[Zeliard]

Well, I'm glad to hear that I'm wrong on this one.

I didn't have much success with voice on Borderlands but perhaps I was doing it wrong?

Haven't messed much with Borderlands online, but L4D puts so much emphasis on players sticking together and basically being on the same wavelength that chatting comes out a lot more naturally there than in other games. In my experience, people spoke on mics a lot more in pub servers in L4D than they did in, say, TF2.

Of course you're occasionally gonna hop into a server and find nobody speaking, but it's only natural that not every single person out there on the PC will have a mic, and a lot of times when nobody speaks it's because nobody else is.

The benefit to the 360 in this case is that since every new console comes with a mic, almost every player is theoretically capable of speaking up. Of course, some would also consider that a negative.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

When I turn around on 360, it feels like I'm, well, turning around: it takes about the length of time it would take me to turn around in reality. When I turn around using a keyboard and mouse, it feels so quick and so precise, with so little sense of human momentum, that it takes me out of it. My character should have whiplash. In general, my aim twitches about like I'm a laser-guided robot on speed.

There's absolutely no question that keyboard and most is the quickest and most efficient control method we have for FPS games... but sometimes it leaves me feeling like I'm controlling a precision video camera, and not a character in a world.

If it bothers you that much, there's always turning the sensitivity down and putting on mouse filtering. The default setting in the L4D2 demo feels like I'm slowly tugging my dude's neck around.

 

[Swiff Epics]

http://www.thekoalition.com/left-4-dead-2-steam-giveaway/

Left 4 Dead 2 Steam code giveaway.

 

[Tenks]

What I haven't tried in L4D2 yet is in L4D I could not get my fucking microphone to work. Something about L4D overtaking my input. I tried everything online to get it to work but never could. No clue if this is fixed in L4D2 but apparently it was quite the problem.

.

Reposting since it was at the end of the page. Maybe I should just boot up L4D2 demo later today and see.

 

[Shake Appeal]

Hell, even the first L4D on the 360 was outsourced, was it not?

I don't know if it was 'outsourced' as such (Valve have plenty of L4D developer Live accounts; I've played against four of them), but Certain Affinity at the very least helped with it. They're mostly ex-Bungie guys, and they were working on Halo Waypoint, so I don't know if they're involved with L4D2 at all.

L4D sold very well on 360, though. If I remember rightly, it even beat out the Orange Box, and I imagine they expect the sequel to do even better. But it definitely still sells many more copies on PC.

 

[gregor7777]

.

Reposting since it was at the end of the page. Maybe I should just boot up L4D2 demo later today and see.

Never heard of the issue.

Though, I do need to alt tab out of my game to turn on my bluetooth mic. For some reason I can't get it to initialize if I'm already in the game.

My keyboard goes kinda nuts once and while too. I was playing with Red the other night and I couldn't use backspace, and several of my keys got rearranged. :lol

Had to alt tab out, reset my mic, and hop back in.

I don't know if it was 'outsourced' as such (Valve have plenty of L4D developer Live accounts; I've played against four of them), but Certain Affinity at the very least helped with it. They're mostly ex-Bungie guys, and they were working on Halo Waypoint, so I don't know if they're involved with L4D2 at all.

L4D sold very well on 360, though. If I remember rightly, it even beat out the Orange Box, and I imagine they expect the sequel to do even better. But it definitely still sells many more copies on PC.

I thought I remember reading that Certain Affinity did most if not all of the porting work, but I can't find that source.

 

[Jenga]

I don't know if it was 'outsourced' as such (Valve have plenty of L4D developer Live accounts; I've played against four of them), but Certain Affinity at the very least helped with it. They're mostly ex-Bungie guys, and they were working on Halo Waypoint, so I don't know if they're involved with L4D2 at all.

L4D sold very well on 360, though. If I remember rightly, it even beat out the Orange Box, and I imagine they expect the sequel to do even better. But it definitely still sells many more copies on PC.

As far as I know, Valve has a 360 team to work on the port concurrently with the rest of the team on any project.


Only game that could be really considered outsourced was the PS3 Orange Box.

 

[Shake Appeal]

If it bothers you that much, there's always turning the sensitivity down and putting on mouse filtering. The default setting in the L4D2 demo feels like I'm slowly tugging my dude's neck around.

Actually, one of the first things I do when playing a PC FPS is turn the sensitivity up. Just because I think it feels less 'real' to be moving and aiming with a keyboard and mouse doesn't mean I don't appreciate it's also by far the best and easiest way to play.

 

[Tenks]

Actually, one of the first things I do when playing a PC FPS is turn the sensitivity up. Just because I think it feels less 'real' to be moving and aiming with a keyboard and mouse doesn't mean I don't appreciate it's also by far the best and easiest way to play.

Just how slow do you think you move while carrying a weapon? That was my major gripe with Killzone2 was that I could never get that 'feel' down. Probably a result of fairly clumsy controls in KZ2 and the fact that I hate analog sticks for FPS.

 

[Shake Appeal]

I thought I remember reading that Certain Affinity did most if not all of the porting work, but I can't find that source.

From the CA website:

The company’s leadership has taken a long-term approach from the start, beginning with work-for-hire on Bungie’s Halo 2 and Valve’s Left 4 Dead. They have also developed their own IP, a downloadable RTS called Age of Booty, with Capcom, and partnered with Activision on Call of Duty: World at War. This rare exposure to so many top-tier developers and publishers has helped them build their team and their infrastructure and processes, learning from the experts in the field while growing the company at a careful, measured pace.

Self-described "work-for-hire", and there are definitely dedicated 360 devs at Valve (although obviously L4D/2 are still "ported", as they're built primarily for PC).

Doesn't look like Certain Affinity worked on L4D2.

 

[crimsonheadGCN]

I thought I remember reading that Certain Affinity did most if not all of the porting work, but I can't find that source.

http://www.certainaffinity.com/2008/02/04/cat-outta-the-bag/

Cat Outta The Bag

The latest issue of OXM blew the cover on our involvement with Valve and Left 4 Dead. We can now confirm that yes, indeed, we are working on this most awesome game and are responsible for the Xbox 360 version. Visit the official Left 4 Dead web site for the gory details.

We’ll post a shot of the magazine cover as soon as possible. Be sure to check back soon, we plan on updating this site more frequently now that this is public and with progress on our other game progressing quickly.

http://www.gamesetwatch.com/2008/04/qa_certain_affinitys_hoberman.php

Are you doing the Xbox 360 version or the multiplayer stuff?

MH: We’re responsible for every aspect of the Xbox version, and the game is also in development so we’ve helped them out a lot with the PC version. It’s not exactly a port, it’s simultaneous development on the Xbox version and there’s a lot of back and forth with those guys. But yeah, we’re responsible for everything from the control scheme to the matchmaking, and doing some pretty cool, pretty ambitious things. I can’t talk about that too much without Valve here, but we’re doing some pretty cool stuff.

 

[speculawyer]

They're also console games ported to PC (one of which no doubt suffered from all the hubris and bullshit). Valve games are PC games ported to the console.

By what I understand, Microsoft has a pretty good cross-platform PC & xbox 360 development environment so you can easily develop games that will play on both. So I'm guessing they use that such that they pretty much get the xbox 360 version for "free" (just a little extra effort over the PC version alone). If you develop with that environment, it is not easy to then add a PS3 version.

But that is speculation.

 

[Smokey]

L4D2 just shipped to me from GameFly

Looking forward to it, never played the first!

 

[wayward archer]

If it bothers you that much, there's always turning the sensitivity down and putting on mouse filtering. The default setting in the L4D2 demo feels like I'm slowly tugging my dude's neck around.

I actually agree with Shake Appeal in that I like certain aspects of a controller (for instance, I like analog movement over WASD and I also like the feel of 'pushing' my gun into position with a joystick instead of dragging it with a mouse).

Having said that, overall I enjoy playing with KB/M better for the precision, especially in versus mode where i'm less concerned with immersion. I wish there were a way to combine the things I like about both.

Slowing down the mouse sensitivity usually doesn't cut it for me, they are just too different in other aspects for that to make up the difference.

 

[Twig]

By what I understand, Microsoft has a pretty good cross-platform PC & xbox 360 development environment so you can easily develop games that will play on both. So I'm guessing they use that such that they pretty much get the xbox 360 version for "free" (just a little extra effort over the PC version alone). If you develop with that environment, it is not easy to then add a PS3 version.

But that is speculation.

The problem with that is that a game designed for a console is still a game designed for a console. You can't just drop in PC controls and expect it to be the same experience (or an experience on the same level as games designed for PC).

 

[Zeliard]

And what is it with all these crazy embargos lately where we're not getting reviews until after the game is already out? Seems to be more than usual.

 

[Concept17]

Less than 9 hours! woooot

 

[Nabs]

What I haven't tried in L4D2 yet is in L4D I could not get my fucking microphone to work. Something about L4D overtaking my input. I tried everything online to get it to work but never could. No clue if this is fixed in L4D2 but apparently it was quite the problem.

the 3rd party software they use is gahbage. my mic sounds like utter shit through l4d, so i try to get my team to use something outside of l4d like ventrilo.

i noticed the l4d2 demo turns my mic on whenever i launch it. so i have to hear myself type and talk throughout the entire game. it's a good thing most of my games will be w/ gaffers who don't mind using vent, but it sucks to see them use the same software as before.

 

[Snapshot King]

Sorry if its already been answered, but are there any concrete details on the possible backwards compatibility for L4D1? I didnt pick it up and I'm interested to see if it'd still be worthwhile, if I could play on them with all the new stuff.

 

[gregor7777]

And what is it with all these crazy embargos lately where we're not getting reviews until after the game is already out? Seems to be more than usual.

Surely the embargo will be up as of today, no? Are they really waiting until the game is released?

 

[Shake Appeal]

Just how slow do you think you move while carrying a weapon? That was my major gripe with Killzone2 was that I could never get that 'feel' down. Probably a result of fairly clumsy controls in KZ2 and the fact that I hate analog sticks for FPS.

I don't think it's even to do with moving a weapon. The way you move and aim in 90% of FPS games is weirdly inhuman, even if you weren't weighed down with armour and rocket launchers and railguns and whatever else. The speed and fluency of mouse/keyboard contributes to that. Before people get further upset about this, the FPS has been my favourite genre since Wolfenstein 3D shareware. And I didn't own a console before 2002.

There are a few games that approximate physical motion better than others (off the top of my head, the way you move in the Riddick games, or in Monolith games, has a more natural feel to it), but then again, that may not suit every title.

And without getting into another argument entirely, Killzone 2's controls are clumsy partly because of the large dead zones on the analog sticks (although I believed this was what they tweaked with the post-release patch), and the game also suffers more input lag than many other titles, at least according to this Digital Foundy article.

 

[Tim-E]

Surely the embargo will be up as of today, no? Are they really waiting until the game is released?

I know Rock, Paper, Shotgun will be posting their review at midnight (EST) tonight, at the same time of the game's release.

 

[Lostconfused]

I know Rock, Paper, Shotgun will be posting their review at midnight (EST) tonight, at the same time of the game's release.

Well I guess thats something to pass the time with while steam crashes on you.

 

[RocketDarkness]

Well I guess thats something to pass the time with while steam crashes on you.

C'mon guys, I've got a good feelin' 'bout this!

 

[Shake Appeal]

Eurogamer said theirs would be "early in the morning". Whether that means just after midnight, I don't know.

 

[Firestorm]

For Left 4 Dead on PC, just jump in this thread and say you want a game. You should find one. Add a bunch of GAFfers to your friends list. There's no 100 friend limit like on Live.

PC:
+PC is Valve's home turf
+Better aiming with mouse.
+Better display resolution
+Eventual mods & user created levels
-Voice? (Perhaps this is supported better & used by more people than I realize?)
-Small desktop screen (for most people on PCs)

Xbox:
+Easy ubiquitous voice support . . . it is a co-op game and it improves the game fun to talk with your fellow survivors.
+Sitting your ass on the couch in front of the big TV
+Larger installed base
-Controls not as tight.
-No Mods

really:

PC
+Better aiming with mouse
+Better graphics (model quality, anti-aliasing, resolution)
+Mods and user created levels
+Voice
+Choice of Monitor or TV if your computer is near one (like mine!)
+Choice of Keyboard or 360 Controller
+A LOT CHEAPER

360:
You don't own a PC or all your friends bought it on 360

 

[Zeliard]

Eurogamer said theirs would be "early in the morning". Whether that means just after midnight, I don't know.

5 AM for our pals in Europe.

Surely the embargo will be up as of today, no? Are they really waiting until the game is released?

Hopefully not, though even then, waiting until the very day prior to release isn't much better. It's already 4 PM EST and Metacritic is empty.

 

[The Lamonster]

360:
You don't own a PC or all your friends bought it on 360

COUCH

 

[gregor7777]

COUCH

What's stopping you from sitting on one? :lol

 

[Rad-]

L4D sold very well on 360, though. If I remember rightly, it even beat out the Orange Box, and I imagine they expect the sequel to do even better. But it definitely still sells many more copies on PC.

It beat TOB pretty easily too. L4D passed the 2 million mark on 360 like 6 months ago. It sold over 1.5 million in US alone according to NPD.

Hell, it might be over 2 million in US by now but this is just a guess based on the crazy legs that L4D had.

 

[Firestorm]

COUCH

My computer is connected to my TV and monitor at all times =) I switch between depending on what experience I want. L4D2 will be in front of a PC because my friends will fucking kill me if I even think about using a controller on Expert Realism mode :lol

 

[fallengorn]

L4D2 will be in front of a PC because my friends will fucking kill me if I even think about using a controller on Expert Realism mode :lol

Do it once while Twig records everything.

 

[Talamius]

COUCH

My DVI->HDMI adapter says hello

 

[itsinmyveins]

For Left 4 Dead on PC, just jump in this thread and say you want a game. You should find one. Add a bunch of GAFfers to your friends list. There's no 100 friend limit like on Live.


really:

PC
+Better aiming with mouse
+Better graphics (model quality, anti-aliasing, resolution)
+Mods and user created levels
+Voice
+Choice of Monitor or TV if your computer is near one (like mine!)
+Choice of Keyboard or 360 Controller
+A LOT CHEAPER

360:
You don't own a PC or all your friends bought it on 360

In general, I kinda agree with what Shake Appeal said earlier. I like the clumsiness and slower aim you get on consoles to a certain degree (well, maybe not the DS3 controller since those sticks are horrible). It makes the player seem more human, heavy and less of a floating camera.

But then again, I didn't like L4D on X360 at all and thought it was almost an entirely different game -- a good one, then -- on PC.

And no, the game ain't a lot cheaper for us euros buying through steam. It's cheaper, but not by much :/

 

[RocketDarkness]

COUCH

When my room was having crown molding put in, I had to cart my room off to the living room for a few days. I hooked up my PC to the HDTV and played L4D with a TV tray. It was glorious.

 

[Firestorm]

Do it once while Twig records everything.

This sounds like an experiment I can get behind. It'll be better if I get accustomed to KB+M first. Like Borderlands. I tried with a controller for the first time yesterday night. The menus are way easier to navigate, but I found out I can't quick-switch between weapons (no number keys) which really screwed up my usual strategy x.x

 

[Nabs]

In general, I kinda agree with what Shake Appeal said earlier. I like the clumsiness and slower aim you get on consoles to a certain degree (well, maybe not the DS3 controller since those sticks are horrible). It makes the player seem more human, heavy and less of a floating camera.

But then again, I didn't like L4D on X360 at all and thought it was almost an entirely different game -- a good one, then -- on PC.

And no, the game ain't a lot cheaper for us euros buying through steam. It's cheaper, but not by much :/

it is if you do a 4-pack w/ someone from another region. jump in w/ someone from the states and end up paying 22 €.

 

[itsinmyveins]

it is if you do a 4-pack w/ someone from another region. jump in w/ someone from the states and end up paying 22 €.

Too late, man, I've already pre-loaded the game and I can't be bothered working out deals with people I don't know

 

[Nabs]

not my problem

 

[Firestorm]

In general, I kinda agree with what Shake Appeal said earlier. I like the clumsiness and slower aim you get on consoles to a certain degree (well, maybe not the DS3 controller since those sticks are horrible). It makes the player seem more human, heavy and less of a floating camera.

But then again, I didn't like L4D on X360 at all and thought it was almost an entirely different game -- a good one, then -- on PC.

And no, the game ain't a lot cheaper for us euros buying through steam. It's cheaper, but not by much :/

Well, like I said, PC version (like many PC games) supports 360 pad out of the box.

 

[itsinmyveins]

Well, like I said, PC version (like many PC games) supports 360 pad out of the box.

I'm gonna be playing it with a mouse and keyboard though, since I feel like it's made with that intention and I don't want to be at a disadvantage when playing with others. I just wanted to make a point about me actually liking FPS-games on console with the standard X360 controller

not my problem

No, it's not, but Steam's far from cheap regarding games in general unless there's a weekend deal. The usual games on steam tend to cost about 10 euros more than a store bought PC-game.

 

[Twig]

Do it once while Twig records everything.

I'm down.

 

[Red Scarlet]

For Left 4 Dead on PC, just jump in this thread and say you want a game. You should find one. Add a bunch of GAFfers to your friends list. There's no 100 friend limit like on Live.

There is a 250 limit though. I thought there was no limit.

Try to .dem your first playthroughs if you can, and find funny moments! I'm going to.