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[Veelk]

Didn't they cover that when they went down to hobo-town and there was no disparity between the benders and non-benders there, showing that it wasn't a big deal without Amon stirring the shit?

It seems like there's more evidence that it wasn't a big deal, and that the whole point of it in season 1 was to show that there isn't a disparity at all, just Noatok trying to get revenge for his father because reasons.

Even in AtLA there was plenty of times to address it, but Mai and Ty lee took care of benders all the time.

I don't know, it seems like you really want that to be a storyline when it would just contradict a bunch of stuff in the show and the point of Amon being a fraud in the first place.

They were wrong to just shrug off any suggestion about it being a problem afterwards, but that's only because you have to really reach to find that they made the whole dispute nonsense anyway.

Given that the whole fiasco was happening specifically due to Amon's actions in the previous episode, I don't count it. Besides, just because it's done once, it must never be done again? AND, don't forget, she didn't fix anything. She realized she couldn't beat the problem into submission, so she left, and then went on to try to threaten Tarrlok later on.

Anyway, I know it isn't a big deal, but that's just as stupid, if not more so, than it being a big deal and then everyone forgetting about it. Apparently, with nothing but a ragtag group of extremist nutjobs, Amon managed to effortlessly overpower the entire city....and despite the people being this capable, they just give up once the leader is gone? No, that's stupid. Even if the equalist cause isn't legitimate, a group with that much capability doesn't just go away.

I don't 'want' it to be anything except well written, and that doesn't happen when they ignore the equalist issues, whether their motivations are valid or not.

 

[Trey]

Given that the whole fiasco was happening specifically due to Amon's actions in the previous episode, I don't count it. Besides, just because it's done once, it must never be done again? AND, don't forget, she didn't fix anything. She realized she couldn't beat the problem into submission, so she left, and then went on to try to threaten Tarrlok later on.

Anyway, I know it isn't a big deal, but that's just as stupid, if not more so, than it being a big deal and then everyone forgetting about it. Apparently, with nothing but a ragtag group of extremist nutjobs, Amon managed to effortlessly overpower the entire city....and despite the people being this capable, they just give up once the leader is gone? No, that's stupid. Even if the equalist cause isn't legitimate, a group with that much capability doesn't just go away.

I don't 'want' it to be anything except well written, and that doesn't happen when they ignore the equalist issues, whether their motivations are valid or not.

Korra was way out of her depth in dealing with Amon. Everyone was, which made it difficult to construct scenarios where Korra learns to start using her wits. Honestly, I wish they played up the fear factor Amon struck into the avatar - that was the most interesting the series ever was.

I agree with the rest. The Equalist resolution is easily the most disappointing thing about LoK for me.

 

[Veelk]

She clearly has a form of ASPD. There is definitely an element of reduced empathy in the diagnosis of sociopathy or psychopathy but that doesn't mean the non-existence of it altogether. She is no way mentally normal.

She didn't just have a mental break at the very end of the series but other than that she was fine. She had a whole host of mental issues already.



She fits that really really well.

Nope.

Impairment has to be a constant feature of a person's life. Azula was functioning perfectly fine until several percieved betrayals accumulated on her all at once. That makes it situational. Her self esteem was also defined by others, not herself. Despite her amazing achievements, she did them all for Ozai, remember. She does have a very goal oriented mind however.

For the second definition, impairment has already been covered for why it's not applicable, as well as Empathy. She does have trouble with intimacy, but she tries in small ways that are not related to power dominance or manipulation. Not just with Zuko or her friends, but that random guy she tried to hook up with. When she tried to get with him, she (awkwardly) offered him a partnership in power, she didn't try to coerce or trick him into it. She obviously has issues thinking of things outside of terms of power, but that is not a sociopathic trait in and of itself.



I won't argue that she isn't completely normal. As a child, she was into dark stuff, but really, that's about the extent of it, and that could have been because she was trying to emulate her father while still being innocent of concepts like death.

I'd agree with you if we hadn't seen her actions as a teenager.

 

[neojubei]

Why does Korra have such an amazing visual design and such a terrible personality

wryyyyyyyyyyyyyy

i'd like to know too. Man did i hate last season and the conclusion of it still pisses me off. Its like the show lost its history/lore/appeal and the show runners dont know what the heck they are doing. All those avatars all those rich back-stories all gone. I really hate Korra. Asami should have been the star of the show or even Bolin.

 

[Talon]

Amateur readings of the ASM. Fantastic.

Anti-Social Disorder in reality is fucking terrifying. It's an absolute lack of empathy. Those are the kids that kill birds and choke their sisters just because they're curious and want to do it - not because they're trying to hurt someone. They genuinely don't understand why what they're doing is wrong.

 

[LAUGHTREY]

Given that the whole fiasco was happening specifically due to Amon's actions in the previous episode, I don't count it. Besides, just because it's done once, it must never be done again? AND, don't forget, she didn't fix anything. She realized she couldn't beat the problem into submission, so she left, and then went on to try to threaten Tarrlok later on.

Anyway, I know it isn't a big deal, but that's just as stupid, if not more so, than it being a big deal and then everyone forgetting about it. Apparently, with nothing but a ragtag group of extremist nutjobs, Amon managed to effortlessly overpower the entire city....and despite the people being this capable, they just give up once the leader is gone? No, that's stupid. Even if the equalist cause isn't legitimate, a group with that much capability doesn't just go away.

I don't 'want' it to be anything except well written, and that doesn't happen when they ignore the equalist issues, whether their motivations are valid or not.

Isn't that exactly how the Dai Li worked? They even switched from working against the fire nation to for it with little more than fear of Azula and her two friends.

It's not that crazy, I just think focusing on it any more would get tedious. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't do some kind of call back to it now

Spoiler

where some anti-bender suddenly has bending abilities from harmonic convergence now that that's happening.

S3 leak spoilers.

 

[Veelk]

Amateur readings of the ASM. Fantastic.

Anti-Social Disorder in reality is fucking terrifying. It's an absolute lack of empathy. Those are the kids that kill birds and choke their sisters just because they're curious and want to do it - not because they're trying to hurt someone. They genuinely don't understand why what they're doing is wrong.

I'm majoring in psychology and getting my bachelors next year, so I like to think I'm atleast somewhat educated on the subject.

And while people with ASD can obviously be horrifying, like any other mental disorder, there are degrees to which a person has it. I know of a sociopath that understood that he was a sociopath, that people had feelings he cannot percieve, and did his best to navigate through life as an ethical, if not moral, human being. Several sociopaths lead perfectly normal lives because, mathematically, they don't see a reason why they should cause chaos and ruin the ease of their lives they have now, even if they may feel an impulse to do criminal activities.

People with ASD aren't automatic monsters. I liken them more to people who drive a car without breaks. They have a harder time not hitting others with them. Some care about that, some don't. You have to be careful around them regardless, but you can't generalize them to that extent.

Isn't that exactly how the Dai Li worked? They even switched from working against the fire nation to for it with little more than fear of Azula and her two friends.

It's not that crazy, I just think focusing on it any more would get tedious. I wouldn't be surprised if they don't do some kind of call back to it now

Spoiler

where some anti-bender suddenly has bending abilities from harmonic convergence now that that's happening.

S3 leak spoilers.

Ba Sing Se was a totalitarian nation where the Dai Li were the secret police. Control them, of course you control the city. Republic City has no excuse except that their forces suck so hard they were somehow out maneuvered by ordinary, stupid, crazy citizens taking up the cause on a whim.

 

[Jarmel]

Nope.

Impairment has to be a constant feature of a person's life. Azula was functioning perfectly fine until several percieved betrayals accumulated on her all at once. Her self esteem was also defined by others, not herself. Despite her amazing achievements, she did them all for Ozai, remember. She does have a very goal oriented mind however.

For the second definition, impairment has already been covered for why it's not applicable, as well as Empathy. She does have trouble with intimacy, but she tries in small ways that are not related to power dominance or manipulation.

I won't argue that she isn't completely normal. As a child, she was into dark stuff, but really, that's about the extent of it, and that could have been because she was trying to emulate her father while still being innocent of concepts like death.

I'd agree with you if we hadn't seen her actions

In no way was she was functioning normally even in a society that fostered abnormal/aggressive behavior. She took a pretty good amount of enjoyment out of others suffering. She was indirectly setting fire to people as a kid. Even as a child, she took significant enjoyment out of her brother's suffering.

She had no real functional relationship even with her so called friends. As a teenager, if you're born into a ruling family, saying something like this to a guy you barely know, " 'Together, you and I will be the strongest couple in the entire world! We will dominate the earth!' ", shows a complete lack of social norms.

 

[Jacob]

Didn't they cover that when they went down to hobo-town and there was no disparity between the benders and non-benders there, showing that it wasn't a big deal without Amon stirring the shit?

It seems like there's more evidence that it wasn't a big deal, and that the whole point of it in season 1 was to show that there isn't a disparity at all, just Noatok trying to get revenge for his father because reasons.

Even in AtLA there was plenty of times to address it, but Mai and Ty lee took care of benders all the time.

I don't know, it seems like you really want that to be a storyline when it would just contradict a bunch of stuff in the show and the point of Amon being a fraud in the first place.

They were wrong to just shrug off any suggestion about it being a problem afterwards, but that's only because you have to really reach to find that they made the whole dispute nonsense anyway.

I don't find this the least bit plausible considering what the show actually put forward. Setting aside ATLA for the moment, because the world had changed so much between the two series, Republic City is clearly a society with some very major problems. For starters, it's ruled by a council entirely appointed by outside powers, marginalizing its actual population. This probably made sense when the city first started, but it's an unjust and unsustainable system. The funny thing is that the show actually acknowledged this in Book 2, in one of the very few after-effects of the Equalist uprising, by having the office of President created. So right away, the show undermines the creator's claim that there was nothing of substance to the Equalist movement.

But looking deeper, you can actually find a lot more that's clearly wrong. The fact that the Equalists were able to garner mass support from a significant portion of the population is itself a testament to how unhappy people are with the social order. It's not easy to mobilize tens or hundreds of thousands of people, and it's basically impossible if they feel invested in and valued by the establishment. Some people try to brush off Tarrlok's laws that restricted the rights of non-benders since they were passed in response to Equalist violence, but the fact that he was able to get them passed speaks to the chauvinism (if not outright bigotry) endemic in the ruling elite of Republic City. Back when season one was airing, some people argued that we didn't know if all of the members of the Council were benders, but the passage of Tarrlok's bill basically proves that they were. We also know that the entire police force of Republic City is composed of benders (metalbenders, to be exact). So the non-bending citizens of the city have several reasons to feel disenfranchised.

Even if one thinks the creators' position that Amon was a complete fraud who was just duping his followers, that doesn't explain how the movement just melted away immediately. The social ills that were either shown or implied by the show were never addressed (with the exception of replacing the Council with an elected President). And psychology tells us that hardcore followers of a movement tend to double down on their beliefs when challenged, so the most thoroughly duped Equalists should still have been around, causing trouble. But the most offensive part to me was the idea that a significant percentage of Republic City's population, many of them presumably otherwise normal, peaceful citizens, who had been willing to support the Equalist movement would or could merge back into mainstream society at the drop of a hat. The suggestion that this is what happened betrays a lack of respect for the audience, for the rules of drama, and for the concept of realistic worldbuilding.

 

[Veelk]

In no way was she was functioning normally even in a society that fostered abnormal/aggressive behavior. She took a pretty good amount of enjoyment out of others suffering. She was indirectly setting fire to people as a kid. Even as a child, she took significant enjoyment out of her brother's suffering.

She had no real functional relationship even with her so called friends.

...Why not? Firebending, as the fire nation taught it under Ozai, was meant to enhance aggression, and she had the most direct contact with the true sociopath, who doted on her and encourage sociopathic tendencies in her, AND gave her a social role that would reward those tendencies.

Like I said, I wouldn't say she was entirely normal, I agree with you there, but to call her a sociopath is far too much. She doesn't show the chops for it later in life, and the circumstances under which she is raised easily make her tendencies in childhood doubtful. She nearly lit her friend on fire? She was trying to show off her skill. You hear about children doing stupid things all the time because they overestimate their abilities or underestimate the dangers. It's not even usual child behavior. Her amusement in her brother's suffering is the strongest argument, since empathy is done through body language and facial expressions, but even that could be her just trying to be like good old daddy and regarding any show of compassion as weakness to be mocked.

And while you have a point with Mai, Ty Lee was genuinely her friend. Because she's Ty Lee, and she'd make friends with anyone, no matter what. Understandably, not a normal friendship, but that one is not Azula's fault.



On another point, is there ANY character in Korra we could have a discussion this deep analyzing their characters? Because I can't think of any better evidence for the immense gap of quality between the two shows.

 

[Jintor]

I don't know... Azula may have craved validation and approval, but to my mind she never gave ANY indication (beyond her speech at the end of The Beach) that she had any real sense of empathy beyond that required for tactics and strategy. Even as a kid.

Maybe she didn't fit the functional psychological definition of a sociopath, then, but she definitely fits it as I meant it in the popular vernacular. Which may be a misuse, of course, that I don't argue.

 

[Trey]

On another point, is there ANY character in Korra we could have a discussion this deep analyzing their characters?

Tenzin. Maybe Tarrlok.

 

[Veelk]

I don't know... Azula may have craved validation and approval, but to my mind she never gave ANY indication (beyond her speech at the end of The Beach) that she had any real sense of empathy beyond that required for tactics and strategy. Even as a kid.

Maybe she didn't fit the functional psychological definition of a sociopath, then, but she definitely fits it as I meant it in the popular vernacular. Which may be a misuse, of course, that I don't argue.

Quick example. When Azula become jealous of Ty Lee getting attention from all the boys at the party, she tells her the boys don't actually care about her, that she's just a tease. Ty Lee starts crying. After a moment of surprise, Azula's voice softens and apologizes. Then she admits the unthinkable. That she is jealous. A show of insecurity, a vulnerability. A weakness.

This is not what a person with true ASD does. There are other examples of random kindness from Azula throughout the series, particularly with Zuko when he's back home.

And while I can't expect everyone to by a psychology major, writing her off as a psycho, even in the common everyday use of the word, is selling her short. It implies that she's evil to me, because that is what a psychopath is to most people, by definition. She's so much more richly complex than that.

Tenzin. Maybe Tarrlok.

Pfft....alright, go for it. What can we discuss about either of those characters.

 

[Jarmel]

...Why not? Firebending, as the fire nation taught it under Ozai, was meant to enhance aggression, and she had the most direct contact with the true sociopath, who doted on her and encourage sociopathic tendencies in her, AND gave her a social role that would reward those tendencies.

Like I said, I wouldn't say she was entirely normal, I agree with you there, but to call her a sociopath is far too much. She doesn't show the chops for it later in life, and the circumstances under which she is raised easily make her tendencies in childhood doubtful. She nearly lit her friend on fire? She was trying to show off her skill. You hear about children doing stupid things all the time because they overestimate their abilities or underestimate the dangers. It's not even usual child behavior. Her amusement in her brother's suffering is the strongest argument, since empathy is done through body language and facial expressions, but even that could be her just trying to be like good old daddy and regarding any show of compassion as weakness to be mocked.

And while you have a point with Mai, Ty Lee was genuinely her friend. Because she's Ty Lee, and she'd make friends with anyone, no matter what. Understandably, not a normal friendship, but that one is not Azula's fault.

Ozai definitely fostered whatever negative traits existed in her but if I remember correctly, she was the one that suggested the razing of the Earth Kingdom which Ozai ran with. She never really understood why people rejected her or why what she was doing was bad. She even at an early age was fairly egotistical and I would say that she took her brother being favored over her as an insult to her directly, moreso than her actually craving her mother's love.

The closest thing she had to an actual relationship was with her father and that isn't fleshed out enough to the point where I can say she actually cared about him as another human being.

On another point, is there ANY character in Korra we could have a discussion this deep analyzing their characters? Because I can't think of any better evidence for the immense gap of quality between the two shows.

lol no

 

[m_shortpants]

...Why not? Firebending, as the fire nation taught it under Ozai, was meant to enhance aggression, and she had the most direct contact with the true sociopath, who doted on her and encourage sociopathic tendencies in her, AND gave her a social role that would reward those tendencies.

Like I said, I wouldn't say she was entirely normal, I agree with you there, but to call her a sociopath is far too much. She doesn't show the chops for it later in life, and the circumstances under which she is raised easily make her tendencies in childhood doubtful. She nearly lit her friend on fire? She was trying to show off her skill. You hear about children doing stupid things all the time because they overestimate their abilities or underestimate the dangers. It's not even usual child behavior. Her amusement in her brother's suffering is the strongest argument, since empathy is done through body language and facial expressions, but even that could be her just trying to be like good old daddy and regarding any show of compassion as weakness to be mocked.

And while you have a point with Mai, Ty Lee was genuinely her friend. Because she's Ty Lee, and she'd make friends with anyone, no matter what. Understandably, not a normal friendship, but that one is not Azula's fault.



On another point, is there ANY character in Korra we could have a discussion this deep analyzing their characters? Because I can't think of any better evidence for the immense gap of quality between the two shows.

This is a stretch...but maybe Tarrlok?

But I agree. The characters have no...characterization. Even in season 1, when Mako was telling Korra about his and Bolin's parents, I was assuming we'd get something about what made him into who he is today...and nothing. They actually cut that scene to the part where they wake up resting on Naga. All we got was that he's hard because he's the one who had to provide for Bolin, who was able to develop into the happy go lucky personality. But then they squandered anything they built there by making a shitty character with all the romance garbage.

But I agree, there is not one character in LoK that has any sort of complexity.

 

[Jintor]

Quick example. When Azula become jealous of Ty Lee getting attention from all the boys at the party, she tells her the boys don't actually care about her, that she's just a tease. Ty Lee starts crying. After a moment of surprise, Azula's voice softens and apologizes. Then she admits the unthinkable. That she is jealous. A show of insecurity, a vulnerability. A weakness.

This is not what a person with true ASD does. There are other examples of random kindness from Azula throughout the series, particularly with Zuko when he's back home.

And while I can't expect everyone to by a psychology major, writing her off as a psycho, even in the common everyday use of the word, is selling her short. It implies that she's evil to me, because that is what a psychopath is to most people, by definition. She's so much more richly complex than that.

Hmmm... I don't know... I couldn't tell you why, but I feel like insofar as Azula admits weakness to Ty Lee in that scene, she's doing it as part of a considered tactic to get what she wants, which is Ty Lee's 'friendship', and she's doing it because that's what she's learned that a friend would do. I mean, if you pressed me I couldn't really justify it, but that's how I always took that scene.

I don't want to push that Azula has true ASD or whatever, but I'm not simply 'writing her off' as a psycho when I call her a sociopath. I mean, to a degree I don't even truly believe she was, like, damaged from birth or something - we don't really see a lot of her childhood (I haven't read The Promise or anything so idk if it's explored there). I just don't think it removes her complexity as a character to call a spade a spade.

 

[Veelk]

Ozai definitely fostered whatever negative traits existed in her but if I remember correctly, she was the one that suggested the razing of the Earth Kingdom which Ozai ran with. She never really understood why people rejected her or why what she was doing was bad. She even at an early age was fairly egotistical and I would say that she took her brother being favored over her as an insult to her directly, moreso than her actually craving her mother's love.

I don't think so. Her hallucination at the end of her mother is the most insight we get into their relationship, but the conversation never turns to Zuko. It wasn't about how her mother loved Zuko more than her, it was about how her mother just flat out didn't love her...to which she hallucinates her saying that she did, which implies a very complex percieved relationship. Azula lies to herself, we can agree on that much, if only because of how she obviously doesn't believe she is affected by the betrayals of her friends whne she obviously is. Based on that, my interpretation was that because she saw her mother's doubts in her, she retreated into her father's arms and dedicated herself to emulating him, and just reasoning that her mother didn't love her, when she actually did, but she couldn't handle the complexity of her mother both loving her while still being very much scared of her and her actions.

To the extent that she doesn't understand her actions....that one is hard to say. The smaller examples show she can regret (the Ty Lee example), so we know she CAN connect the dots on a small scale, but she is rarely confronted on her larger actions in general. Who in the fire nation military is going to criticize her actions of capturing the city they've been trying to capture for 100 years? She's usually facing an enemy where she is reasonably encouraged to do all in her power to stop. Which is why part of where she doesn't conform to social norms is arguable. She very much does in her capacity as a warrior princess.

The closest thing she had to an actual relationship was with her father and that isn't fleshed out enough to the point where I can say she actually cared about him as another human being.

You don't need a deep relationship for that. One moment is sufficient. She is under the impression that they will go raze Ba Sing Se together, as a Father-Daughter weekend sort of thing. But Ozai abandons her because he wants to strut around in his new "I'M EMPEROR OF THE WORLD" shirt. To make up for this, he gives her the ENTIRE fire nation. But this doesn't make her happy. She is the second most powerful person in the world, and she isn't happy because her father didn't take her out on their big weekend together.

Related to that slightly, if she truly saw him as nothing more than a stepping stone to power, she wouldn't have lead the avatar and his friends away from him during the day of Black Sun. There was literally nothing for her to lose and everything to gain in that moment. Ozai would have been defeated, the sun would have come back soon, and she would have been the new leader of the fire nation pending Ozai's defeat. In terms of gaining power, this was the most obvious step to take in the world. She might have even gotten the avatar in the aftermath.

Hmmm... I don't know... I couldn't tell you why, but I feel like insofar as Azula admits weakness to Ty Lee in that scene, she's doing it as part of a considered tactic to get what she wants, which is Ty Lee's 'friendship', and she's doing it because that's what she's learned that a friend would do. I mean, if you pressed me I couldn't really justify it, but that's how I always took that scene.

I don't want to push that Azula has true ASD or whatever, but I'm not simply 'writing her off' as a psycho when I call her a sociopath. I mean, to a degree I don't even truly believe she was, like, damaged from birth or something - we don't really see a lot of her childhood (I haven't read The Promise or anything so idk if it's explored there). I just don't think it removes her complexity as a character to call a spade a spade.

No, this is Ty Lee. You could probably set her puppy on fire in front of her and she'd still hang out with you the next day with no ill regard....okay, I'm exaggerating, but you could atleast threaten to set her on fire and she'd do it, because she has. Either way, Azula being mean wouldn't have been sufficient to end a friendship anyway. Keep in mind, if she really pushed, Azula could just force her to do what she wanted by threatening her family or something. In the mindset that Azula claims to have, this would amount to the same thing: Ty Lee doing what she said. But she opts to make up a hurt feeling that, honestly, wouldn't have made any difference in the long run.

Maybe it doesn't for you, but it does for a lot of people. Not everyone has the same definitions of things even that are generally agreed on, so when the discussion for whether she is a sociopath comes up, I always feel obligated to argue against it because even if you don't mean it in the technical sense, people will interpret it as the stereotype of a sociopath, without all the subtleties that make Azula such a fantastic character.

 

[Trey]

Pfft....alright, go for it. What can we discuss about either of those characters.

Tenzin is man trying to live up to and preserving Aang's legacy, which causes him to be super uptight. This affects his relationship with his siblings as they feel resentment toward him for being the direct heir. He actually shows the weight of this responsibility is sometimes a little too much for him, and he lashes out when he feels that he's not doing right by his father.

Through all this you can tell the kind of person Tenzin is: a "good guy." A person that sees himself in a better light than others and a person who tries to "fix" everyone. Bossy. Every relationship he has outside his nuclear family corroborates this: Korra not learning a thing from him, his brother and sister telling him his shit stinks, Lin obviously still sour over how Tenzin and her relationship went.

And it all stems from the extreme pressure he puts upon himself as the new last airbender, arbiter of Republic City.

---

Tarrlok was always second fiddle to his brother, and his tragic upbringing led him to seize power in spite of his father. He wanted to do the right thing, yet went about it in a harmful way. In being the other side of the coin that was Amon, he atoned for his mess making in a shockingly grim way.

It doesn't show through well (if even sparingly), since in most of his scenes he's mustache-twirling villain goofy, and all of the context surrounding him was courtesy of an info dump. But it provided more angles from which to read his character, and understand his motivations.

 

[Veelk]

Tenzin is man trying to live up to and preserving Aang's legacy, which causes him to be super uptight. This affects his relationship with his siblings as they feel resentment toward him for being the direct heir. He actually shows the weight of this responsibility is sometimes a little too much for him, and he lashes out when he feels that he's not doing right by his father.

Through all this you can tell the kind of person Tenzin is: a "good guy." A person that sees himself in a better light than others and a person who tries to "fix" everyone. Bossy. Every relationship he has outside his nuclear family corroborates this: Korra not learning a thing from him, his brother and sister telling him his shit stinks, Lin obviously still sour over how Tenzin and her relationship went.

And it all stems from the extreme pressure he puts upon himself as the new last airbender, arbiter of Republic City.

Good effort (and that's not sarcasm), but your describing generalities. The level at which we are describing Azula is where a very tiny, seemingly insignificant moment like her apologizing to Ty Lee can change the entire perspective we have on the character. Where deep characters truly lie is when you have to sit down and discuss how a moment defines or changes their character.

For example, a small layer of complexity added to Tenzin was early on, when he was against probending because he saw it as a waste of time. When he actually went to a game, his perspective quickly changed. His sterotype of a stoic, serious minded monk was broken when he started cheering like any sports fan would. He becomes more open minded as he sees Korra succeed in using his airbending tactics, and progresses as a teacher and a person.

The problem is that there aren't a lot of those moments because his character development is largely insignificant as a teacher, so that subtlety becomes insignificant. Who cares if he's a more open minded teacher if he doesn't teach her anything or put that openmindedness to use?

If you can talk to me about Tenzin on that level while maintaining relevence to the story, then I'll be impressed. Same with Tarrlok.

 

[Jintor]

Maybe it doesn't for you, but it does for a lot of people. Not everyone has the same definitions of things even that are generally agreed on, so when the discussion for whether she is a sociopath comes up, I always feel obligated to argue against it because even if you don't mean it in the technical sense, people will interpret it as the stereotype of a sociopath, without all the subtleties that make Azula such a fantastic character.

Fair enough

No, this is Ty Lee. You could probably set her puppy on fire in front of her and she'd still hang out with you the next day with no ill regard....okay, I'm exaggerating, but you could atleast threaten to set her on fire and she'd do it, because she has. Either way, Azula being mean wouldn't have been sufficient to end a friendship anyway. Keep in mind, if she really pushed, Azula could just force her to do what she wanted by threatening her family or something. In the mindset that Azula claims to have, this would amount to the same thing: Ty Lee doing what she said. But she opts to make up a hurt feeling that, honestly, wouldn't have made any difference in the long run.

Apologising is way easier for Azula though than having to go through the effort. And I'm not saying she wants to maintain s.link 10 or something, but rather that Azula does genuinely crave validation and friendship and all that jazz, but only understands it on a trade metric. That she apologised is part of the exchange (apology = maintenance of good feelings) rather than out of truly feeling regretful. Of course, this is just interpretation.

 

[Jarmel]

I don't think so. Her hallucination at the end of her mother is the most insight we get into their relationship, but the conversation never turns to Zuko. It wasn't about how her mother loved Zuko more than her, it was about how her mother just flat out didn't love her...to which she hallucinates her saying that she did, which implies a very complex percieved relationship. Azula lies to herself, we can agree on that much, if only because of how she obviously doesn't believe she is affected by the betrayals of her friends whne she obviously is. Based on that, my interpretation was that because she saw her mother's doubts in her, she retreated into her father's arms and dedicated herself to emulating him, and just reasoning that her mother didn't love her, when she actually did, but she couldn't handle the complexity of her mother both loving her while still being very much scared of her and her actions.

To the extent that she doesn't understand her actions....that one is hard to say. The smaller examples show she can regret (the Ty Lee example), so we know she CAN connect the dots on a small scale, but she is rarely confronted on her larger actions in general. Who in the fire nation military is going to criticize her actions of capturing the city they've been trying to capture for 100 years? She's usually facing an enemy where she is reasonably encouraged to do all in her power to stop. Which is why part of where she doesn't conform to social norms is arguable. She very much does in her capacity as a warrior princess.

You don't need a deep relationship for that. One moment is sufficient. She is under the impression that they will go raze Ba Sing Se together, as a Father-Daughter weekend sort of thing. But Ozai abandons her because he wants to strut around in his new "I'M EMPEROR OF THE WORLD" shirt. To make up for this, he gives her the ENTIRE fire nation. But this doesn't make her happy. She is the second most powerful person in the world, and she isn't happy because her father didn't take her out on their big weekend together.

Related to that slightly, if she truly saw him as nothing more than a stepping stone to power, she wouldn't have lead the avatar and his friends away from him during the day of Black Sun. There was literally nothing for her to lose and everything to gain in that moment. Ozai would have been defeated, the sun would have come back soon, and she would have been the new leader of the fire nation pending Ozai's defeat. In terms of gaining power, this was the most obvious step to take in the world. She might have even gotten the avatar in the aftermath.

She was already losing it when she got appointed. She was suffering from hallucinations and bouts of paranoia. Whatever grip she had on reality, that was going straight out the window.

I will agree that the Fire Nation fostered whatever issues she had, as those traits were beneficial for them. That said, even among the Fire Nation she was viewed as irregular.

As for her father, I'm not sure she was thinking even close to rationally near the very end.

 

[Kinvara]

As I see it:

Ozai was without a doubt an abusive father and husband. If anyone's to blame for Azula's warped personality, it's him.

Azula never allowed herself to show any kind of weakness in front of her father in order to avoid getting the same ridicule and abuse that Zuko so often received. Ozai was her main example of interpersonal relationships growing up and he always used intimidation and fear to interact with others. She repeats this kind of behavior with her friends, Mai and Ty Lee.

Azula was constantly having to put up a facade. This is an immense strain on anyone especially someone so young. She never learned how to make healthy relationships with people so in a state of indefinite emotional isolation.

It's no wonder she finally had a breakdown.

 

[Jintor]

As I see it:

Ozai was without a doubt an abusive father and husband. If anyone's to blame for Azula's warped personality, it's him.

Azula never allowed herself to show any kind of weakness in front of her father in order to avoid getting the same ridicule and abuse that Zuko so often received. Ozai was her main example of interpersonal relationships growing up and he always used intimidation and fear to interact with others. She repeats this kind of behavior with her friends, Mai and Ty Lee.

Azula was constantly having to put up a facade. This is an immense strain on anyone especially someone so young. She never learned how to make healthy relationships with people so in a state of indefinite emotional isolation.

It's no wonder she finally had a breakdown.

Yep. I'm basically about this.

 

[Veelk]

She was already losing it when she got appointed. She was suffering from hallucinations and bouts of paranoia. Whatever grip she had on reality, that was going straight out the window.

I will agree that the Fire Nation fostered whatever issues she had, as those traits were beneficial for them. That said, even among the Fire Nation she was viewed as irregular.

As for her father, I'm not sure she was thinking even close to rationally near the very end.

She wasn't hallucinating until the very end. She started losing it the moment she was betrayed by Mai and then by Ty Lee. Then her brother's new found firebending abilities rattled her confidence. Then her father finally broke her completely. And it was after that the hallucinations and paranoia truly set in.

As for her issues...well, whose the fire nation? Mai, while she had enough of her shit on several occasions, made no allusion that Azula was too far gone. Ty Lee was obviously uncomfortable being threatened, but doesn't mind Azula besides that. Ozai obviously thinks she's the perfect daughter. Zuko, his mom, and Iroh are the only ones who sense a problem. So....roughly half the people, half of whom are screwed up themselves.

And she was rational, at that point. Disturbed, but she could easily reason. Her rationality failed when she talked to her mother, but aside from that...even when she was fighting Zuko, she was still thinking tactically by attacking Katara, knowing Zuko would defend her. She was perfectly coherent.

Apologising is way easier for Azula though than having to go through the effort. And I'm not saying she wants to maintain s.link 10 or something, but rather that Azula does genuinely crave validation and friendship and all that jazz, but only understands it on a trade metric. That she apologised is part of the exchange (apology = maintenance of good feelings) rather than out of truly feeling regretful. Of course, this is just interpretation.

Your still not clear as to why Azula would go through the trouble of maintaining those good feelings. If there is anything Azula has never done, it's half ass things, which is what an apology would be when she believes fear to be a far more powerful motivator. Nevermind the fact that she admitted she was jealous. Honestly, consider her obsession with strength and perfection as well as her belief in the power of fear, and tell me that she would prefer "I'm sorry, I was jealous" to "Stop crying or I'll set you on fire" because she is being lazy, of all things.

That'd be almost out of character to me. For your interpretation to work, you'd have to ignore the other two most prominent aspects of Azula's personality. The more reasonable explanation is that she just genuinely cared abut Ty Lee being hurt.

Yep. I'm basically about this.

Interesting, because that's basically what I'm saying.

See my point though? We're arguing like we have two supposedly different interpretations, but Kinvara posts a short paragraph that we both seemingly agree to. Words are very fluid and that's why you have to be a bit careful just saying 'she's a sociopath' even in terms of the common place vernacular, because very few people are going to interpret it the way you mean.

 

[Jarmel]

She wasn't hallucinating until the very end. She started losing it the moment she was betrayed by Mai and then by Ty Lee. Then her brother's new found firebending abilities rattled her confidence. Then her father finally broke her completely. And it was after that the hallucinations and paranoia truly set in.

As for her issues...well, whose the fire nation? Mai, while she had enough of her shit on several occasions, made no allusion that Azula was too far gone. Ty Lee was obviously uncomfortable being threatened, but doesn't mind Azula besides that. Ozai obviously thinks she's the perfect daughter. Zuko, his mom, and Iroh are the only ones who sense a problem. So....roughly half the people, half of whom are screwed up themselves.

And she was rational, at that point. Disturbed, but she could easily reason. Her rationality failed when she talked to her mother, but aside from that...even when she was fighting Zuko, she was still thinking tactically by attacking Katara, knowing Zuko would defend her. She was perfectly coherent.

She was dismissing people over minor things because she thought they were attempts on her life. She wasn't sleeping properly most likely because of the paranoia. She was already way on the decline.

The Fire Nation again wasn't a healthy environment for anyone so yes, it's hard to isolate how much of her issues are hers alone and how much are a result of bad upbringing on the part of Ozai. That said, she couldn't function that well even inside the Fire Nation on a social setting. She lacked the emotional core tenets needed to interact with other human beings in a meaningful way, even Ozai was more capable of this.

Even Zuko acknowledged before he started fighting her that Azula was off. Her body language is much more exaggerated and unrestrained. She's not really thinking long term strategy or anything defined like that but more just killing Zuko. Also when she directs the lighting to Katara, I didn't get anything like her expecting her brother to take the bolt but more just wanting to either hurt him emotionally or just hurt a person in general. Zuko has to taunt her into using the lightning in the first place after all and afterwards she doesn't gloat about tricking him or anything of that nature.

 

[m_shortpants]

It's honestly mind blowing that ATLA came from the same guys. Every character, even side characters like Mai and Ty Lee have more depth and fleshed out backstories than the main characters in LoK.

 

[Jarmel]

It's honestly mind blowing that ATLA came from the same guys. Every character, even side characters like Mai and Ty Lee have more depth and fleshed out backstories than the main characters in LoK.

It's fucking depressing, that's what it is.

 

[Veelk]

She was dismissing people over minor things because she thought they were attempts on her life. She wasn't sleeping properly most likely because of the paranoia. She was already way on the decline.

I can't remember if that's after her father told her she's staying home...if it isn't, then yeah, the cracks were showing before the crescendo, but still, she was still mostly rational is my point.

The Fire Nation again wasn't a healthy environment for anyone so yes, it's hard to isolate how much of her issues are hers alone and how much are a result of bad upbringing on the part of Ozai. That said, she couldn't function that well even inside the Fire Nation on a social setting. She lacked the emotional core tenets needed to interact with other human beings in a meaningful way, even Ozai was more capable of this.

That party just means she is not used to social situations where she is not identified as the princess. Keep in mind that she was experimenting because she has never been in a place where she was treated as just a regular joe. Most nonsociopathic royalty with zero exposure to normal society would act similarly. She seems works well in her aristocratic social situations, given she maintained connections with Mai and Ty Lee from childhood. An inability to interact emotionally doesn't suggest a lack of an emotional core, just a lack of understanding in how to utilize it.

And you don't know that about Ozai. We know he could maintain a veneer of civility, but at no point do we see him chilling with friends or whatever. I could believe Ozai could manipulate people socially, but that implies the opposite of what Azula has. He didn't truly have an emotional core due to his lack of empathy, but he could manipulate people with charm and charisma.

Even Zuko acknowledged before he started fighting her that Azula was off. Her body language is much more exaggerated and unrestrained. She's not really thinking long term strategy or anything defined like that but more just killing Zuko. Also when she directs the lighting to Katara, I didn't get anything like her expecting her brother to take the bolt but more just wanting to either hurt him emotionally or just hurt a person in general. Zuko has to taunt her into using the lightning in the first place after all and afterwards she doesn't gloat about tricking him or anything of that nature

I'm not sure what point your getting at here. I'm not saying she wasn't mentally and emotionally unstable. She obviously was. But irrational is different from unstable.

 

[The Silver]

I think Azula is someone who thinks she is and tries to be a "sociopath" but really isn't.

She was "born lucky", she's daddy's little princess, she's the prodigy firebender.

Ozai took her under his wing and poured every negative aspect of himself into her when she probably just wanted to be loved like a normal person. The worst if it for her was that she saw all the love her mom had for Zuko and felt like she wasn't getting any of it, so she slides further and further into being this perfect monster with no emotions like Ozai wanted her to be.

 

[Kinvara]

How many of you have read "The Search"?

The comics are considered canon and it does offer some more insight into Azula's character.

 

[Cloud Strife]

How many of you have read "The Search"?

The comics are considered canon and it does offer some more insight into Azula's character.

I have. I loved it to pieces for that very reason.

 

[Veelk]

How many of you have read "The Search"?

The comics are considered canon and it does offer some more insight into Azula's character.

I haven't, don't care to. Reliable sources have informed me it suffers from the same narrative degeneration that LoK does. I don't know the specifics, but I don't need to. I'll be happy with the show and a few choice fanfics that also understand how to do the series justice.

 

[Poyunch]

This scene is so ironic in retrospect.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bMnzrUrzX8Q

 

[Jarmel]

That party just means she is not used to social situations where she is not identified as the princess. She works well in her aristocratic social situations, given she maintained connections with Mai and Ty Lee from childhood. An inability to interact emotionally doesn't suggest a lack of an emotional core, just a lack of understanding in how to utilize it.

I would say she didn't understand basic emotions other than the ones her father taught her, fear and respect.

And you don't know that about Ozai. We know he could maintain a veneer of civility, but at no point do we see him chilling with friends or whatever. I could believe Ozai could manipulate people socially, but that implies the opposite of what Azula has. He didn't truly have an emotional core due to his lack of empathy, but he could manipulate people with charm and charisma.

Ozai did actually care about his family and did love Ursa at one point. He also does seem to care about Azula in his own way.

I'm not sure what point your getting at here. I'm not saying she wasn't mentally and emotionally unstable. She obviously was. But irrational is different from unstable.

She's seemingly not acting normal even for herself, to the point that it's obvious to Zuko. She shows no long term thinking capability or strategy, part of which you note is just due to the context of the scene. Her moment of what you're deeming strategy, which is striking at Katara, wasn't really thought out by her until a second before she does it. After which she doesn't even gloat, like most villains, about how she knew her brother would take the bolt because he's 'noble' or whatever. It's seemingly an impulsive act that granted her a surprising bonus.

 

[The Silver]

But seriously how the hell did Korra easily bend 3 elements when she was 4 years old, did she just randomly or instinctively firebend and earthbend one day? You'd think it would've happened to Aang and Roku as well if that's possible.

 

[Veelk]

I would say she didn't understand basic emotions other than the ones her father taught her, fear and respect.

She showed examples of understanding happiness and sadness. It's love she had trouble grasping with, by and large, but that was less that she didn't understand it and more that she felt she was lacking it.

Ozai did actually care about his family and did love Ursa at one point. He also does seem to care about Azula in his own way.

If your quoting the comics, I consider those non canon, if only in my mind. And sociopaths are capable of caring. They're just not capable of doing it in empathetic terms. When Zuko was calling Ozai out, Ozai defended himself that he was trying to make Zuko strong and he seemed to accept him when he believed he killed the avatar. Sociopaths are incapable of empathy, not affection. Zuko was his son and his son must be strong, and who doesn't want to be strong, right? What is this he is whimpering about that he felt abandoned and shit, god, what a disappointment. That was a rough estimate of his thinking, but he was trying to be a 'good' father.

She's seemingly not acting normal even for herself, to the point that it's obvious to Zuko. She shows no long term thinking capability or strategy, part of which you note is just due to the context of the scene. Her moment of what you're deeming strategy, which is striking at Katara, wasn't really thought out by her until a second before she does it. After which she doesn't even gloat, like most villains, about how she knew her brother would take the bolt because he's 'noble' or whatever. It's seemingly an impulsive act that granted her a surprising bonus.

Again, myopia is not irrationality. And gloating isn't a rational activity in most fights anyway, whether it's something villains stereotypically do or not. It doesn't mean she didn't use katara as a tactic. Honestly, the fact that she is using lightning at all is proof that she has a clear mind in that moment. If she didn't, it'd explode in her face. Irrationality is believing certain things relate to others in a way that they don't. An irrational person believes Obama is really a xenomorph in disguise with an agenda to sacrifice all americans to Ra the Sun God. An irrational person believes they are talking to a mother that isn't really there. This was her at one point, but not in the fight.

 

[BlackJace]

So to cope with tragedy, you randomly listen to music and type out the lyrics in all caps. You are more crazier than Azula.

See this is why Azula is one of my favorite characters ever. You could see this side of her coming out of the cracks that clearly started to form in seasons prior.
Girl was fun to watch from beginning to end.

TLA tha God.

 

[Jintor]

Your still not clear as to why Azula would go through the trouble of maintaining those good feelings. If there is anything Azula has never done, it's half ass things, which is what an apology would be when she believes fear to be a far more powerful motivator. Nevermind the fact that she admitted she was jealous. Honestly, consider her obsession with strength and perfection as well as her belief in the power of fear, and tell me that she would prefer "I'm sorry, I was jealous" to "Stop crying or I'll set you on fire" because she is being lazy, of all things.

That'd be almost out of character to me. For your interpretation to work, you'd have to ignore the other two most prominent aspects of Azula's personality. The more reasonable explanation is that she just genuinely cared abut Ty Lee being hurt.

Azula always lies

I did explain why Azula wants to maintain the good feelings; because she genuinely wants Ty Lee to like her. She does genuinely want to be friends. I'm not saying that she was lying about being jealous. I'm saying she probably wasn't sincerely regretful in her apology. The end goal was not to repudiate her behaviour, it was to get back on Ty Lee's good side. She knows enough to understand you don't get on people's good sides through fear; it's just a last resort that's always there if you don't accept her other attempts (the episode where Ty Lee is first introduced, and Azula makes a big show of being Ty Lee's friend by Ty Lee is noticeably super nervous about Azula being around, and then Azula progressively makes the circus act more dangerous...).

Interesting, because that's basically what I'm saying.

See my point though? We're arguing like we have two supposedly different interpretations, but Kinvara posts a short paragraph that we both seemingly agree to. Words are very fluid and that's why you have to be a bit careful just saying 'she's a sociopath' even in terms of the common place vernacular, because very few people are going to interpret it the way you mean.

If you can't call Azula a sociopath you can't call anyone a sociopath. (Maybe you can't call anyone a sociopath, but Azula is hardly going to inspire me to stop)

Anyway, I just saw an interesting analysis which notes that Avatar Yangchen tells Aang that it is necessary that the Avatar be incarnated as a human so as to experience life and love and to thus gain attachments. In other words, attachments are integral to the functioning of an Avatar! So then what was Guru Pathick on about? Giving up attachments did function to activate the Avatar State in Crossroads of Destiny, so I'm not sure how this squares precisely.

 

[Veelk]

Azula always lies

I did explain why Azula wants to maintain the good feelings; because she genuinely wants Ty Lee to like her. She does genuinely want to be friends. I'm not saying that she was lying about being jealous. I'm saying she probably wasn't sincerely regretful in her apology. The end goal was not to repudiate her behaviour, it was to get back on Ty Lee's good side. She knows enough to understand you don't get on people's good sides through fear; it's just a last resort that's always there if you don't accept her other attempts (the episode where Ty Lee is first introduced, and Azula makes a big show of being Ty Lee's friend by Ty Lee is noticeably super nervous about Azula being around, and then Azula progressively makes the circus act more dangerous...).

No, she doesn't always lie, no matter what Zuko says.

At this point, you're not offering actual evidence in favor of assuming she is just always manipulating people because she manipulated them at other points in time.

The friends excuse doesn't work because 1. She knows Ty Lee is not the type to hold a grudge and 2. even if she were, it wouldn't be over a stupid insult at a party vs threatening to burn her in her circus and 3. She explicitely states and acts she believes Fear > Friendship several times and 4. Regardless of everything else, admitting that you are jealous is revealing you are being weak and that is DEFINITELY something she doesn't do under any circumstance.

It just doesn't line up. She'd have to be splendidly ignorant of her friends personality AND backtrack on 2 beliefs she says define her as a person.

If you can't call Azula a sociopath you can't call anyone a sociopath

Again, DSM-V states otherwise. There are sociopaths, even in TLA. Ozai is one, and Combustion man seemed to be another. But Azula doesn't fit the mold.

Anyway, I just saw an interesting analysis which notes that Avatar Yangchen tells Aang that it is necessary that the Avatar be incarnated as a human so as to experience life and love and to thus gain attachments. In other words, attachments are integral to the functioning of an Avatar! So then what was Guru Pathick on about? Giving up attachments did function to activate the Avatar State in Crossroads of Destiny, so I'm not sure how this squares precisely.

For the billionth time, being the avatar is not just about kicking ass! See, this is what Korra on your brain does to you.

Look, just ask yourself: what is the purpose of the avatar state? Is it supposed to be activated at all times?

I think the requirements for the avatar state are such that it's only activated in either a moment of crisis or when the avatar feels so resolute about a decision is right that they can give up earthly attachments without losing their resolve for that decision.

It's actually a clever defense mechanism if you think about it. An avatar that tries to enforce a decision that is defined by earthly attachment should would have to give it up making it to activate the avatar state necessary to enforce it.

 

[Mononoke]

As I see it:

Ozai was without a doubt an abusive father and husband. If anyone's to blame for Azula's warped personality, it's him.

Azula never allowed herself to show any kind of weakness in front of her father in order to avoid getting the same ridicule and abuse that Zuko so often received. Ozai was her main example of interpersonal relationships growing up and he always used intimidation and fear to interact with others. She repeats this kind of behavior with her friends, Mai and Ty Lee.

Azula was constantly having to put up a facade. This is an immense strain on anyone especially someone so young. She never learned how to make healthy relationships with people so in a state of indefinite emotional isolation.

It's no wonder she finally had a breakdown.

Pretty much agree with this. Much of Azula's personality was based on how she looked up to Ozai (and what Ozai expected of people). Her cruelty to Zuko was because she saw him as weak (through the lens of her father). I guess we could get into the argument of whether she had deeper psychological issues (ie. she's a sociopath etc.)...but not like we really have a lot to go off of. Really, it's all just analysis and assumption. Which is fine. Apart of the fun of watching a show is analyzing the characters.

But I still believe that Azula early on was influenced heavily by her father. I don't really see her as this child born evil. I think we can all agree she was an awesome character regardless of which side you fall in (with regards to her psychology/behaviors).

 

[Jintor]

I don't see why analysis based on past performance would fail to be valid.

Much of the point of The Beach in Azula's case really was, I felt, revealing that she does want to have these meaningful attachments but she simply doesn't know how to do so, and for the most part while this was played for comedy (she even punctures the only time she drops her guard in that last speech) I do believe she does genuinely want these relationships

I mean, the reason I brought up the circus was not because I wanted to say Azula's loco, but because of the pretence at friendship. She went all in on the old school friends act. But she always has the edge of threat in the background. So even if she's admitting jealousy - not exactly a glaring weakness, and one that is easy to throw off, at least in my reading of Azula - and even if she espousing fear > friendship (which she does believe, and holds over ty lee and mai in the background if not at the surface) - I still think it's entirely consistent to offer an apology purely as a transactional exchange rather than genuinely.

 

[Veelk]

I don't see why analysis based on past performance would fail to be valid.

Because it is in conflict with other past characteristics, as well as that I'm pretty sure this reasoning is a fallacy of some sort.

Edit: Cherry-picking might be it. I was hoping for a fancier name, but until you address how the characteristics that would stop her from making the decision to do what she did, you are ignoring evidence that contradicts your interpretation.

It might also be Hasty Generalization. Azula manipulated someone in A, B, C and D, so you're mistakingly believing that'd she does it in E, F and G too.

Edit 2: yeah, Hasty Generalization is the one.

 

[m_shortpants]

No, she doesn't always lie, no matter what Zuko says.

At this point, you're not offering actual evidence in favor of assuming she is just always manipulating people because she manipulated them at other points in time.

The friends excuse doesn't work because 1. She knows Ty Lee is not the type to hold a grudge and 2. even if she were, it wouldn't be over a stupid insult at a party vs threatening to burn her in her circus and 3. She explicitely states and acts she believes Fear > Friendship several times and 4. Regardless of everything else, admitting that you are jealous is revealing you are being weak and that is DEFINITELY something she doesn't do under any circumstance.

It just doesn't line up. She'd have to be splendidly ignorant of her friends personality AND backtrack on 2 beliefs she says define her as a person.


Again, DSM-V states otherwise. There are sociopaths, even in TLA. Ozai is one, and Combustion man seemed to be another. But Azula doesn't fit the mold.



For the billionth time, being the avatar is not just about kicking ass! See, this is what Korra on your brain does to you.

Look, just ask yourself: what is the purpose of the avatar state? Is it supposed to be activated at all times?

I think the requirements for the avatar state are such that it's only activated in either a moment of crisis or when the avatar feels so resolute about a decision is right that they can give up earthly attachments without losing their resolve for that decision.

It's actually a clever defense mechanism if you think about it. An avatar that tries to enforce a decision that is defined by earthly attachment should would have to give it up making it to activate the avatar state necessary to enforce it.

To be fair, the way the Avatar was depicted even in TLA was all about kicking ass.

Aang seems like the exception, not the norm. Roku smashes up Sozins throne room and says he would've killed him were they not friends. The only depiction of Kyoshi we have is her also kicking ass. Kuruk is reckless. Yangchen keeps the peace by being feared (presumably by kicking ass). Even Aang uses it to smash up the Fire Navy. At this point I can't tell if Aang is exceptional this way.

 

[Jintor]

I do agree probably the only out and out sociopath in the series is probably Ozai who is basically Evil McEvil as far as the story goes. Don't know about Combustian Man, I always interpreted him as a professional, but he had zero dialogue so *shrugs*

 

[Veelk]

To be fair, the way the Avatar was depicted even in TLA was all about kicking ass.

Aang seems like the exception, not the norm. Roku smashes up Sozins throne room and says he would've killed him were they not friends. The only depiction of Kyoshi we have is her also kicking ass. Kuruk is reckless. Yangchen keeps the peace by being feared (presumably by kicking ass). Even Aang uses it to smash up the Fire Navy.

We only see the cliffnotes of Roku's life relating to the war. He got a dragon at some point and found an island to live on. He obviously did other stuff. And Avatar Kyoshi participated in Aang's trial that one time.

We don't have enough information on their histories to make real judgements, but it feels like it'd make little sense that the other avatars would be less involved in diplomacy than Aang, since Aang's the one that actually lived in war time.

 

[m_shortpants]

I do agree probably the only out and out sociopath in the series is probably Ozai who is basically Evil McEvil as far as the story goes. Don't know about Combustian Man, I always interpreted him as a professional, but he had zero dialogue so *shrugs*

Yeah I don't think we can conclude anything about Combustion Man either. Unalaq seems pretty Evil McEvil but TLOK season 2 is garbage so let's not talk about it.

 

[Satch]

asami is coming TONIGHT

 

[Veelk]

I do agree probably the only out and out sociopath in the series is probably Ozai who is basically Evil McEvil as far as the story goes. Don't know about Combustian Man, I always interpreted him as a professional, but he had zero dialogue so *shrugs*

Even Ozai is a TINY bit more complex than that, because he genuinely believes in his social darwinist vision and therefore isn't a hypocrite. It's not much, I grant you, but I have a certain respect for characters that have genuine regard for their philosophies, even if they're repulsive.

Combustion man doesn't have much characterization, but just seemed a bit too happy to horribly murder a bunch of children at first for money and then later for seemingly no reason.

 

[Jintor]

We only see the cliffnotes of Roku's life relating to the war. He got a dragon at some point and found an island to live on. He obviously did other stuff. And Avatar Kyoshi participated in Aang's trial that one time.

We don't have enough information on their histories to make real judgements, but it feels like it'd make little sense that the other avatars would be less involved in diplomacy than Aang, since Aang's the one that actually lived in war time.

Hmmm... actually, as I recall, wasn't Chin the Conquerer basically devouring the entire Earth Kingdom until he got to Kiyoshi Island?

 

[Veelk]

Hmmm... actually, as I recall, wasn't Chin the Conquerer basically devouring the entire Earth Kingdom until he got to Kiyoshi Island?

Kyoshi also lived to be 250. That's a lot of life and I doubt most of it was spent in war.