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Let's Read 'The Fellowship of the Ring' - Presented By TolkienGAF (Join Us!)

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Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Fascinating post, Dantes even if I think a lot of it goes over my head.

Turning to the Moria chapters, I found these very powerful. Tolkien is repeatedly fantastic at making everything we see seem old and have a long history but it is even more apparent with Moria. The chapters really make you appreciate Gimli and I enjoyed his song.

Something that Tolkien also was good at was creating a mysterious creature that we only ever see once. I always forget about the Watcher in the Water when reading the book or watching the movie. I suppose we don't really know much about what he is. Probably some foul creation of Morgoth that Sauron is now using for his own purposes since he went after the ring-bearer first. I suppose the Balrog appears to be one of these one-off creatures if you didn't know their history in the First Age.

The Gandalf and Balrog show down is great as anyone who has experienced the book and movie knows. Just curious about Gandalf's line "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor". Is he talking about the Imperishable Fire that Eru created that Melkor always sought after? I suppose that would be a triumphant line to use against one of his servants. Or is he talking about the Elven ring he possesses. I'm pretty sure he has the fire ring, right?
He was indeed in possession of Narya, and you are correct about the Flame Imperishable of Eru and Gandalf's reference to it. As you said, what better way to parry against the Balrog than to affirm your allegiance to Melkor's foe and creator.
 
It really is a great line that shows Gandalf's Maiar status and power, if the very act of fighting a Balrog wasn't already enough to show that. Where do you stand on the Balrog wings debate? It is written deceptively but it really does seem like he has wings. Yet, I don't think we ever see them fly so it's odd.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
It really is a great line that shows Gandalf's Maiar status and power, if the very act of fighting a Balrog wasn't already enough to show that. Where do you stand on the Balrog wings debate? It is written deceptively but it really does seem like he has wings. Yet, I don't think we ever see them fly so it's odd.
Ah yes, the great Balrog debate. We need some background info first, the following from the Tolkien OT is a brief surmise:

Most participants in these debates agree on the following:

That the Balrog in Moria had "wings" of some sort, or if you prefer, a "shadow" shaped like wings. Those "wings" were probably not made of flesh and blood, but rather of some sort of "dark emanation" or "palpable darkness".

Many of the most intense arguments seem to have resulted from different uses of the word "wing". In this consensus statement, the word "wing" is used only as a convenient symbol for the feature of the Balrog under discussion, without reference to any standard definition. In particular, the statement does not specify whether the "palpable darkness" always had a wing-like shape.

So what are the different definitions that people use? The Oxford English Dictionary divides its relevant definitions of the word "wing" into two groups. Group 1 includes definitions that for the most part refer to physical parts of a creature's body. For example "each of the organs of flight of any flying animal" (but broadened to include cases where similar organs are not used for flight, such as penguins' wings and even "the enlarged fins of flying fishes").

Group 2 includes definitions relating primarily to a thing's shape or position. For example, “an appliance or appendage resembling or analogous to a wing in form or function", including “an artificial apparatus attached to the human arms or shoulders" and "one of the planes of an aeroplane". Even broader, "a lateral part or appendage: in various connexions."

With a Group 2 definition of "wing", the question "Do Balrogs have wings?" is more or less trivial: Tolkien's description clearly fits (at least at the time described in the quotes below), as does the consensus statement above. With a Group 1 definition of "wing", the question is more interesting and the answer less obvious: it depends on the specific definition, and even then not everyone will agree.

The consensus statement above was not reached quickly, and even with a Group 1 definition some newcomers believe that a simple yes or no is clear from the description of the Balrog in "The Bridge of Khazad-dum". The debates generally begin as follows:

Those in favour of wings point out that when the Balrog steps onto the Bridge, "its wings were spread from wall to wall".
But those against point out that the word "wings" was first used in the phrase "the shadow about it reached out like two vast wings", and deduce that the word "wings" refers to the "shadow" itself rather than to a part of the Balrog's solid central body. (The "shadow" was seen when the Balrog first appeared: "it was like a great shadow, in the middle of which was a dark form", and it is likely the "cloud" in the phrase "It came to the edge of the fire and the light faded as if a cloud had bent over it".)

They also that claim that as the Balrog came closer to the Fellowship its uncertain appearance became clearer, so what first looked like a "shadow" or "cloud" and later "like wings" was finally recognized as "wings" once the Balrog was nearby. Those against wings do not agree with this interpretation.

Progress beyond this point is difficult, but again, most of those on both sides of the debate agree with the consensus statement. One substantial remaining point of disagreement is whether the "wings" always had a wing-like shape (supported in part by Tolkien's use of the direct phrase "its wings") or if their form was variable (supported in part by the "cloud" description), and there is no firm evidence known for either position.

I lean towards the no wings side of the debate. Taking the view that Tolkien was very deliberate in his writing of the aforementioned passages in the book. It wasn't by chance, but by choice. Tolkien was no fool and certainly was meticulous in his drafting. He knew exactly what he was doing, but even he would not have envisaged that people would still be fiercely debating this topic in 2015. A testament to his skill as a writer and a little bit of mischievousness from the man himself.
 
I see the wings as being there, but not entirely physical, and more for show like a cloak. It doesn't have to make physical sense, they're huge fire spirits.

Also, I find the wingless depictions of balrogs very dull. They just come across as big trolls. Sure, it would be scary to face a bunch of them, but the winged movie balrog, now that's a force of nature.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
I see the wings as being there, but not entirely physical, and more for show like a cloak. It doesn't have to make physical sense, they're huge fire spirits.

Also, I find the wingless depictions of balrogs very dull. They just come across as big trolls. Sure, it would be scary to face a bunch of them, but the winged movie balrog, now that's a force of nature.
Yes, the film Balrog was done quite well, even that gorilla-esque fist clenching pose it does adds to its perceived might, although some have commented that it was a bit over the top, almost degrading the Balrog somewhat.
 
This was a wonderful set of chapters, and a highlight of the story. With my Kindle edition, I've been highlighting sightings of Gollum, and I honestly prefer Tolkien vaguely hinting at him rather than having Gandalf spelling it out from the get-go and then never being seen or mentioned again until The Tower Towers. I also highlighted foreshadowing of the Balrog, as well as the famous moments from their encounter with it.

So new question time: The elves of Lothlorien have been getting news from Rivendell. How? Do the elves send messenger birds? Did they go over the mountains better than the Fellowship did? I know Legolas had little struggle going over Caradhras.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
This was a wonderful set of chapters, and a highlight of the story. With my Kindle edition, I've been highlighting sightings of Gollum, and I honestly prefer Tolkien vaguely hinting at him rather than having Gandalf spelling it out from the get-go and then never being seen or mentioned again until The Tower Towers. I also highlighted foreshadowing of the Balrog, as well as the famous moments from their encounter with it.

So new question time: The elves of Lothlorien have been getting news from Rivendell. How? Do the elves send messenger birds? Did they go over the mountains better than the Fellowship did? I know Legolas had little struggle going over Caradhras.
As with Sauron and Saruman they had spies in their service. Beings not tainted by the residue of Melkor.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
One of the things I missed in the Fellowship film was the dialogue of Gimli and Legolas, just before the attack of the goblins; "they are coming" (Legolas), "we cannot get out" (Gimli) which mirrors what was said in the Book of Mazarbul. Far better than the gruff nonsense that Gimli spouts in the film.

Frodo's battle cry of "the Shire!" too.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
Week seven: June 22nd - 28th


  • The Mirror of Galadriel
  • Farewell to Lórien
  • The Great River
  • The Breaking of the Fellowship

And thus we enter the final straight, the end is in sight.
 

EGM1966

Member
I like Dantes' suggestion from a while back that Daniel Day-Lewis would probably have been a more ideal choice for Aragorn, but Viggo does an admirable job. Aragorn isn't as "kingly" as he comes off in the text, but there's a likeability to his portrayal that I think works.



Ha, I'd never noticed that about the ponies. The EE's really are worth it though - especially Fellowship.

I'm prepping myself for the upcoming Council of Elrond. Even after all of the read-throughs of Fellowship that I've done over the years, I still find that chunk of the book to be a bit taxing.
First: great thread will try and catch up.

Two: I always visualise Bob Peck for Aragorn. Check IMDB for resume or remember Muldoon from JP.

Third: really missed the Barrow Wieght sequence in the film. Very creepy and also an early sign of the hidden "steel" within Frodo.

Forth: never quite settled to Tom B in the book and I reckon he'd have been real hard to balance in the film. He doesn't quite gel for me in the lore. He feels like he's wandered in from another tale.

Fifth: good to dive in again. I owe it to Sir Lee: what a guy.
 

Loxley

Member
Final chapters already? Thought we had another week. I better get reading.

And I better freaking catch up. I haven't been able to make a ton of progress in the last couple of weeks thanks largely to two separate major freelance projects overlapping. I've been keeping up with the thread in the meantime but haven't been able to really add my own insight. But glad to see everyone else chiming in.
 
I'm really impressed with the Lorien chapters. Tolkien did an excellent job of conveying a kind of melancholy atmosphere, which is really appropriate for a land and people that are at the ends of their days in Middle Earth. I don't really remember picking up on that reading the book when I was a kid. Maybe since I've read the Silmarillion a few times now, and have a grasp of the history of the elves it adds to it. Or I was just to young to understand it then. Either way, those chapters left me some what sad, and to be able to evoke those kinds of emotions is truly great writing.

I also like the foreshadowing of Gandalf coming back. Frodo's dream, and then the sight of the Eagle as their going down the river. The clues are there and it's nice to be able to see them now.
 

hunnies28

Member
I'm so far behind — Weathertop — are you guys planning on readin the whole trilogy?

Almost half of the book gone and I'm not in Rivendell yet.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
I'm so far behind — Weathertop — are you guys planning on readin the whole trilogy?

Almost half of the book gone and I'm not in Rivendell yet.
Loxley and myself decided at the outset that the reception that this thread garnered would determine whether or not we continued with The Two Towers and The Return of the King.

I'd say it's gone well, so a read through of The Two Towers and The Return of the King is something we can do soon. It would be more efficient to just read them both without a pause.
 
All done! Thoroughly enjoyed it, especially what wasn't in the movie. To be honest, it's been so long since I've seen the movie that, a lot of it, I didn't remember. Bits and pieces, here and there, emerged as I read.

With these last four chapters, I really enjoyed The Great River, mainly because of Gollum following them. I'm pretty sure that wasn't in the movie but it just added to the tenseness of the situation. Here they are, in an unpredictable river, only to find out he's trailing them. Noticing him only made matters worse.

I'm all set for The Two Towers. Hopefully, we all read it together but, if not, I'm planning on moving along. I'm really curious to see how Gollum is portrayed in the story compared to the movie. I'm hoping the story has much more.
 

Edmond Dantès

Dantès the White
I'll put the combined TTT and ROTK thread up on the weekend. We'll use a similar schedule and start a week later to give everyone time to catch up.
 
Glad to see we are continuing. I likely would have kept reading anyway but I'm glad of the extra motivation. Still have the last chapter to read in Fellowship.

I'm really impressed with the Lorien chapters. Tolkien did an excellent job of conveying a kind of melancholy atmosphere, which is really appropriate for a land and people that are at the ends of their days in Middle Earth. I don't really remember picking up on that reading the book when I was a kid. Maybe since I've read the Silmarillion a few times now, and have a grasp of the history of the elves it adds to it. Or I was just to young to understand it then. Either way, those chapters left me some what sad, and to be able to evoke those kinds of emotions is truly great writing.

I also like the foreshadowing of Gandalf coming back. Frodo's dream, and then the sight of the Eagle as their going down the river. The clues are there and it's nice to be able to see them now.

I find the Lorien chapters to be much more enjoyable than I remember. Definitely better conveyed in the books than the movies. What I really like is the delayed reaction to Gandalf's death here. They do succumb to some grief outside Moria but they do not really process it till they meet Galadriel. We likely all have experienced grief where it took a while for it to hit us but this felt like Tolkien was channeling his war experiences. Delaying your grief because you just do not have time for it when you're in danger. I think the delayed reaction made it more powerful and you see even more clearly how much he meant to the Company.

All done! Thoroughly enjoyed it, especially what wasn't in the movie. To be honest, it's been so long since I've seen the movie that, a lot of it, I didn't remember. Bits and pieces, here and there, emerged as I read.

With these last four chapters, I really enjoyed The Great River, mainly because of Gollum following them. I'm pretty sure that wasn't in the movie but it just added to the tenseness of the situation. Here they are, in an unpredictable river, only to find out he's trailing them. Noticing him only made matters worse.

I'm all set for The Two Towers. Hopefully, we all read it together but, if not, I'm planning on moving along. I'm really curious to see how Gollum is portrayed in the story compared to the movie. I'm hoping the story has much more.

I also really love that aspect of The Great River chapter with Gollum. Truly creepy. Although, my favourite moment of that chapter is Aragorn's triumphant moment entering Gondor passing by the statues of his ancestor.
 
Finished with FOTR. Great book, certainly more mature than The Hobbit with its decisions and perils. Still surprised how it differs from the movie...until they get to Rivendell. I certainly took advantage of Kindle's highlighting option, highlighting sightings of Gollum, foreshadowing of the Balrog, as well as memorable quotes.

I'm continuing on with The Two Towers and Return of the King tomorrow.
 
I finished it this morning myself. I had completely forgotten that the book doesn't end with the orc battle we see in the movies. It probably does serve as a more climatic ending for the movie but I suppose Tolkien didn't have to be concerned with that considering he was writing it as one book. Excited to continue.
 
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