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[Edmond Dantès]

What does everyone make of the Wights and their place in the Legendarium?

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Interesting to note how many words Tolkien borrowed and how many he created.

 

[Loxley]

What does everyone make of the Wights and their place in the Legendarium?

I think they're fascinating, and another great example of Tolkien taking inspiration from Norse mythology (in this case, the idea of Draugr) and infusing it into his own universe. The fact that they were - at one point - considered to be the more or less the same as Ringwraiths before Fellowship was published is an interesting notion. Though it makes more sense that they were lesser spirits, able to be commanded by the Witch King. They're also yet another example of Tolkien addressing the concept of death in the Middle-earth Legendarium.

I honestly think you could write an entire thesis paper on the various ways Tolkien approaches death and dying in his works, particularly in Middle-earth. It was clearly a subject that fascinated him to some extent.

The absence of the Barrow-Wights and their entire coinciding chapter from the film is such a bummer, especially because Jackson does creepy very well. I have no doubt he could have done an excellent job with it.

 

[AbsentMindedProf]

What does everyone make of the Wights and their place in the Legendarium?

The barrow-wrights are interesting, because they're similar to the ring wraiths, but the barrows are the burial place for some group of Dunedain. Both Frodo and Pippen have visions/memories of men fighting the Kingdom of Angmar. My best guess would be that this was a burial place for some significant place within the kingdom of Arnor that the Witch King managed to conquer. His evil then corrupted the burial place of the people that fought him. I think the barrow wights are some evil that infests the barrows, and that the barrows themselves where once a sacred place to the Dunedain.

It's also interesting that this is the first time that Tolkien foreshadows Aragon, and his importance in history. The larger history of Middle Earth seems to creep into the book for the first time in this chapter, and it's really intriguing.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

I think they're fascinating, and another great example of Tolkien taking inspiration from Norse mythology (in this case, the idea of Draugr) and infusing it into his own universe. The fact that they were - at one point - considered to be the more or less the same as Ringwraiths before Fellowship was published is an interesting notion. Though it makes more sense that they were lesser spirits, able to be commanded by the Witch King. They're also yet another example of Tolkien addressing the concept of death in the Middle-earth Legendarium.

I honestly think you could write an entire thesis paper on the various ways Tolkien approaches death and dying in his works, particularly in Middle-earth. It was clearly a subject that fascinated him to some extent.

The absence of the Barrow-Wights and their entire coinciding chapter from the film is such a bummer, especially because Jackson does creepy very well. I have no doubt he could have done an excellent job with it.

The barrow-wrights are interesting, because they're similar to the ring wraiths, but the barrows are the burial place for some group of Dunedain. Both Frodo and Pippen have visions/memories of men fighting the Kingdom of Angmar. My best guess would be that this was a burial place for some significant place within the kingdom of Arnor that the Witch King managed to conquer. His evil then corrupted the burial place of the people that fought him. I think the barrow wights are some evil that infests the barrows, and that the barrows themselves where once a sacred place to the Dunedain.

It's also interesting that this is the first time that Tolkien foreshadows Aragon, and his importance in history. The larger history of Middle Earth seems to creep into the book for the first time in this chapter, and it's really intriguing.

Yes, they are a fascinating aspect of the Legendarium and add a depth that is much appreciated by those of us who like a bit of horror in addition to high fantasy.

 

[tryagainlater]

It would have been great to see them in the movie but I suppose the chapter doesn't do much to drive the plot along. It does do a great job at showing Frodo's strength which there really was not enough of in the movie.

And yes, it certainly is a wonderful glimpse into the wider history of Middle Earth. This chapter made me break out my copy of Silmarillion. I'm very tempted to read that again as we read LOTR again. The opening of the following chapter has a lovely description of how people began to settle in Bree that I love.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

It would have been great to see them in the movie but I suppose the chapter doesn't do much to drive the plot along. It does do a great job at showing Frodo's strength which there really was not enough of in the movie.

And yes, it certainly is a wonderful glimpse into the wider history of Middle Earth. This chapter made me break out my copy of Silmarillion. I'm very tempted to read that again as we read LOTR again. The opening of the following chapter has a lovely description of how people began to settle in Bree that I love.

Indeed. They add to the mystique of the living and breathing world that Tolkien created, just as the Stone Giants and other creatures who are touched upon only in vague terms do.

It's a very great shame that Tolkien wasn't able to do the same for the other continents of Arda. One can only imagine what he may have created.

 

[Rhomega Beta]

I find the Barrow-wight a rather interesting detour. Never mind the Nazgul, the whole quest could've ended then and there, and no one would've found them again, save the Nazgul who would've retrieved the ring eventually.

There's a lot of singing in this book, but without actual music, it reads like a poem, and I personally find it hard to care about them, and I wound up skipping the whole song Frodo sings in The Prancing Pony.

Also, I like Tom Bombadil. He's the strangest person you'll ever meet, but he's still very friendly, hospitable, and caring. To say the hobbits didn't want to leave says a lot about what they thought of him.

 

[tryagainlater]

I do think the songs add a lot to the world and atmosphere of the book but I do struggle to read them since I can't really form melodies in my head to read them too. The song in the Prancing Pony does make me curious though. Dantes, you've brought up before in one of these threads that Tolkien was trying to create a mythology for England which didn't really have a consistent set of mythology due to the various civilizations it has had over the millennia. How far was he actually going with that? I presume he wasn't trying to make people actually think that Middle Earth was a part of British history but the Prancing Pony song does seem like a bit of aetiology for the hey-diddle-diddle song that we sing to kids today. It does even say beforehand "only a few words of it are now, as a rule, remembered". Was he just having fun incorporating an old song into his story or was this a part of his mythologizing England?

 

[Edmond Dantès]

I do think the songs add a lot to the world and atmosphere of the book but I do struggle to read them since I can't really form melodies in my head to read them too. The song in the Prancing Pony does make me curious though. Dantes, you've brought up before in one of these threads that Tolkien was trying to create a mythology for England which didn't really have a consistent set of mythology due to the various civilizations it has had over the millennia. How far was he actually going with that? I presume he wasn't trying to make people actually think that Middle Earth was a part of British history but the Prancing Pony song does seem like a bit of aetiology for the hey-diddle-diddle song that we sing to kids today. It does even say beforehand "only a few words of it are now, as a rule, remembered". Was he just having fun incorporating an old song into his story or was this a part of his mythologizing England?

It was an ambition for him to give England a mythology on par with the Welsh and Celtic of our Isles, but he realised that it was quite futile and abandoned his attempts to do so and with that much of the connections to England were dropped from his mythos and an entire narrative abandoned in favour of what we now know as the 'Silmarillion' material.

In his latter years, especially when writing the Lord of the Rings, it was merely about incorporating such songs and thus adding a real world depth to his mythos.

 

[Megalosaro]

There was always something unsettling to me about Tom Bombadil. He's a jolly enough guy but there are hints of something... I dunno, dangerous? About him. I've probably read too much into it but Goldberry's response of "He is" to Frodos question of who tom bombadil is kind of unnerves me. Not sure if that is what the professor was intending though.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

There was always something unsettling to me about Tom Bombadil. He's a jolly enough guy but there are hints of something... I dunno, dangerous? About him. I've probably read too much into it but Goldberry's response of "He is" to Frodos question of who tom bombadil is kind of unnerves me. Not sure if that is what the professor was intending though.

There is an edge to him certainly, as with all of Tolkien's characters with an inherent might far beyond their physical guise.

There is a side to him though that might be construed as rather forceful as evidenced by his behavior in the poem titled 'The Adventures of Tom Bombadil' from the book of the same name.

Old Tom Bombadil was a merry fellow;
bright blue his jacket was and his boots were yellow,
green were his girdle and his breeches all of leather;
he wore in his tall hat a swan-wing feather.
He lived up under Hill, where the Withywindle
ran from a grassy well down into the dingle.

Old Tom in summertime walked about the meadows
gathering the buttercups, running after shadows,
tickling the bumblebees that buzzed among the flowers,
sitting by the waterside for hours upon hours.

There his beard dangled long down into the water:
up came Goldberry, the River-woman’s daughter;
pulled Tom’s hanging hair. In he went a-wallowing
under the water-lilies, bubbling and a-swallowing.

‘Hey, Tom Bombadil! Whither are you going?’
said fair Goldberry. ‘Bubbles you are blowing,
frightening the finny fish and the brown water-rat,
startling the dabchicks, and drowning your feather-hat!’

‘You bring it back again, there’s a pretty maiden!’
said Tom Bombadil. ‘I do not care for wading.
Go down! Sleep again where the pools are shady
far below willow-roots, little water-lady!’

Back to her mother’s house in the deepest hollow
swam young Goldberry. But Tom, he would not follow;
on knotted willow-roots he sat in sunny weather,
drying his yellow boots and his draggled feather.

Up woke Willow-man, began upon his singing,
sang Tom fast asleep under branches swinging;
in a crack caught him tight: snick! it closed together,
trapped Tom Bombadil, coat and hat and feather.

‘Ha, Tom Bombadil! What be you a-thinking,
peeping inside my tree, watching me a-drinking
deep in my wooden house, tickling me with feather,
dripping wet down my face like a rainy weather?’

‘You let me out again, Old Man Willow!
I am stiff lying here; they’re no sort of pillow,
your hard crooked roots. Drink your river-water!
Go back to sleep again like the River-daughter!’

Willow-man let him loose when he heard him speaking;
locked fast his wooden house, muttering and creaking,
whispering inside the tree. Out from willow-dingle
Tom went walking on up the Withywindle.
Under the forest-eaves he sat a while a-listening:
on the boughs piping birds were chirruping and whistling.
Butterflies about his head went quivering and winking,
until grey clouds came up, as the sun was sinking.

Then Tom hurried on. Rain began to shiver,
round rings spattering in the running river;
a wind blew, shaken leaves chilly drops were dripping;
into a sheltering hole Old Tom went skipping.

Out came Badger-brock with his snowy forehead
and his dark blinking eyes. In the hill he quarried
with his wife and many sons. By the coat they caught him,
pulled him inside their earth, down their tunnels brought him.

Inside their secret house, there they sat a-mumbling:
‘Ho, Tom Bombadil! Where have you come tumbling,
bursting in the front-door? Badger-folk have caught you.
You’ll never find it out, the way that we have brought you!’

‘Now, old Badger-brock, do you hear me talking?
You show me out at once! I must be a-walking.
Show me to your backdoor under briar-roses;
then clean grimy paws, wipe your earthy noses!
Go back to sleep again on your straw pillow,
like fair Goldberry and Old Man Willow!’

Then all the Badger-folk said: ‘We beg your pardon!’
They showed Tom out again to their thorny garden,
went back and hid themselves, a-shivering and a-shaking,
blocked up all their doors, earth together raking.

Rain had passed. The sky was clear, and in the summer-gloaming
Old Tom Bombadil laughed as he came homing,
unlocked his door again, and opened up a shutter.
In the kitchen round the lamp moths began to flutter;
Tom through the window saw waking stars come winking,
and the new slender moon early westward sinking.

Dark came under Hill. Tom, he lit a candle;
upstairs creaking went, turned the door-handle.
‘Hoo, Tom Bombadil! Look what night has brought you!
I’m behind the door. Now at last I’ve caught you!
You’d forgotten Barrow-wight dwelling in the old mound
up there on hill-top with the ring of stones round.
He’s got loose again. Under earth he’ll take you.
Poor Tom Bombadil, pale and cold he’ll make you!’

‘Go out! Shut the door, and never come back after!
Take away gleaming eyes, take your hollow laughter!
Go back to grassy mound, on your stony pillow
lay down your bony head, like Old Man Willow,
like young Goldberry, and Badger-folk in burrow!
Go back to buried gold and forgotten sorrow!’

Out fled Barrow-wight through the window leaping,
through the yard, over wall like a shadow sweeping,
up hill wailing went back to leaning stone-rings,
back under lonely mound, rattling his bone-rings.

Old Tom Bombadil lay upon his pillow
sweeter than Goldberry, quieter than the Willow,
snugger than the Badger-folk or the Barrow-dwellers;
slept like a humming-top, snored like a bellows.

He woke in morning-light, whistled like a starling,
sang, ‘Come, derry-dol, merry-dol, my darling!’
He clapped on his battered hat, boots, and coat and feather;
opened the window wide to the sunny weather.

Wise old Bombadil, he was a wary fellow;
bright blue his jacket was, and his boots were yellow.
None ever caught old Tom in upland or in dingle,
walking the forest-paths, or by the Withywindle,
or out on the lily-pools in boat upon the water.
But one day Tom, he went and caught the River-daughter,
in green gown, flowing hair, sitting in the rushes,
singing old water-songs to birds upon the bushes.

He caught her, held her fast! Water-rats went scuttering
reeds hissed, herons cried, and her heart was fluttering.
Said Tom Bombadil: ‘Here’s my pretty maiden!
You shall come home with me! The table is all laden:
yellow cream, honeycomb, white bread and butter;
roses at the window-sill and peeping round the shutter.
You shall come under Hill! Never mind your mother
in her deep weedy pool: there you’ll find no lover!’

Old Tom Bombadil had a merry wedding,
crowned all with buttercups, hat and feather shedding;
his bride with forgetmenots and flag-lilies for garland
was robed all in silver-green. He sang like a starling,
hummed like a honey-bee, lilted to the fiddle,
clasping his river-maid round her slender middle.

Lamps gleamed within his house, and white was the bedding;
in the bright honey-moon Badger-folk came treading,
danced down under Hill, and Old Man Willow
tapped, tapped at window-pane, as they slept on the pillow,
on the bank in the reeds River-woman sighing
heard Barrow-wight in his mound crying.

Old Tom Bombadil heeded not the voices,
taps, knocks, dancing feet, all the nightly noises;
slept till the sun arose, then sang like a starling:
‘Hey! Come derry-dol, merry-dol, my darling!’
sitting on the door-step chopping sticks of willow,
while fair Goldberry combed her tresses yellow.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Speaking of poems and elements of horror; the following is rather eldritch in nature:

The Shadows where the Mewlips dwell
Are dark and wet as ink,
And slow and softly rings their bell,
As in the slime you sink.

You sink into the slime, who dare
To knock upon their door,
While down the grinning gargoyles stare
And noisome waters pour.

Beside the rotting river-strand
The drooping willows weep,
And gloomily the gorcrows stand
Croaking in their sleep.

Over the Merlock Mountains a long and weary way,
In a mouldy valley where the trees are grey,
By a dark pool's borders without wind or tide,
Moonless and sunless, the Mewlips hide.

The cellars where the Mewlips sit
Are deep and dank and cold
With single sickly candle lit;
And there they count their gold.

Their walls are wet, their ceilings drip;
Their feet upon the floor
Go softly with a squish-flap-flip,
As they sidle to the door.

They peep out slyly; through a crack
Their feeling fingers creep,
And when they've finished, in a sack
Your bones they take to keep.

Beyond the Merlock Mountains, a long and lonely road,
Through the spider-shadows and the marsh of Tode,
And through the wood of hanging trees and gallows-weed,
You go to find the Mewlips - and the Mewlips feed.

From The Adventures of Tom Bombadil.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Week four: June 1st - 7th

• Strider
• A Knife in the Dark
• Flight to the Ford

 

[kess]

The Barrow-Wights seem to represent a much older evil. The Silmarillion and the histories have related stories regarding "phantoms of terror" and "dreadful shapes" that would entrap travelers in Beleriand, and Eriador seems to have more of what Fangorn called "some shadow of the Great Darkness lying there still away north."

"Cold be hand and heart and bone
and cold be sleep under stone
never more to wake on stony bed
never, till the Sun fails and the Moon is dead
In the black wind the stars shall die
and still be gold here let them lie
till the Dark Lord lifts his hand
over dead sea and withered land."

The Dark Lord is not Sauron.

 

[Megalosaro]

I never realized that poem was about morgoth. It is those hints of ancient history that makes the first half of fellowship so wonderful. With all the ruins of arbor and what not.

 

[tryagainlater]

I never realized that poem was about morgoth. It is those hints of ancient history that makes the first half of fellowship so wonderful. With all the ruins of arbor and what not.

Yes, it's great. Tolkien apparently wanted to publish The Silmarillion long before he got to the Lord of the Rings so I wonder if there would have been a lot more of this ancient history throughout LOTR if it was published first. Perhaps that is why there is a lot of subtle allusions to it since readers would just be confused. Or maybe it always would have been subtle since throwing hints of ancient history in our face constantly may have gotten in the way of the story even if the influences of that history are ever present throughout the story. That said, I remember a fairly lengthy song about Beren and Luthien coming up in one of this weeks chapters so Tolkien wasn't against long discursions to First Age Middle Earth. Speaking of which, I'm almost there on my Silmarillion re-read so I'll probably read that first before getting onto to this weeks chapters.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Yes, it's great. Tolkien apparently wanted to publish The Silmarillion long before he got to the Lord of the Rings so I wonder if there would have been a lot more of this ancient history throughout LOTR if it was published first. Perhaps that is why there is a lot of subtle allusions to it since readers would just be confused. Or maybe it always would have been subtle since throwing hints of ancient history in our face constantly may have gotten in the way of the story even if the influences of that history are ever present throughout the story. That said, I remember a fairly lengthy song about Beren and Luthien coming up in one of this weeks chapters so Tolkien wasn't against long discursions to First Age Middle Earth. Speaking of which, I'm almost there on my Silmarillion re-read so I'll probably read that first before getting onto to this weeks chapters.

Indeed. The Silmarillion and The Lord of the Rings were to be companion pieces, at least that was what Tolkien wanted, but the publishers were not so keen.

There is no doubt that J.R.R's Silmarillion would have been quite a different thing to Christopher's valiant attempt.

Enjoy Of Beren and Luthien, as it is one of Tolkien's finest.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

And thus we meet Strider; often criticised for been a rather one dimensional character, a bit boring even.

In the novel his real identity is revealed quite early on and the letter of Gandalf, omitted in the film trilogy, plays a key part in this.

 

[Rhomega Beta]

Well we did meet him in the previous chapter, but now we're doing more with him apparently. Haven't read today, but I've shifted my plans to reading one chapter a day starting last week.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Regarding the 'Riddle of Strider', it's rather a shame that it wasn't included in full in the Peter Jackson films.

All that is gold does not glitter,
Not all those who wander are lost;
The old that is strong does not wither,
Deep roots are not reached by the frost.

From the ashes a fire shall be woken,
A light from the shadows shall spring;
Renewed shall be blade that was broken,
The crownless again shall be king.

It's also quite amusing that he carries the broken sword with him; it carries with it some symbolism I suppose. More to do with Northern myths regarding broken swords; Gram in particular.

 

[tryagainlater]

At least they keep the coolest line from the riddle. I guess from the hobbits' reaction to Strider that he is not as dreamy as Viggo. I do like Viggo as Aragorn even if he does not always reach the commanding presence of his book counterpart. Makes him a bit more likeable though.

As I mentioned I would earlier, I re-read Beren and Luthien which is of course great (although not as amazing as the Lay concerning Turin). It is nice that Tolkien made a lengthy reference to it here and even mentions the wars of the Silmaril. That naturally went way over my head the first time I read it. Thinking through the reasons for Tolkien using the Beren and Luthien story here, a few obvious ones jump out. Showing more history is something he liked to do, the story also seemed pretty important to him if the names are on his and his wife's gravestone so he wanted the story to be in a published work if The Silmarillion was never going to be released. The love of a Man and Elf is also important for Aragorn's character and would naturally be running through his mind considering his love for Arwen. He mentions his heart is in Rivendell shortly after so Arwen is constantly on his mind. Anyone think of any other thematic resonance for Tolkien bringing up the story here?

 

[Rhomega Beta]

Why can't anyone in these books hold onto their ponies for more than a week? Bilbo and the dwarves went through like 3 or 4 sets through The Hobbit, and now Frodo and his gang lost their set in Bree.

Once again, one thing communicated in the books that can't really be done in the movies is distance and the time it takes to get from one place to another. in the movie, when Arwen speeds Frodo to Rivendell, it feels like the Ford is right down the block from Weathertop, but here it's much further away, but Frodo isn't unconscious the whole time either. I also like the callback to The Hobbit.

This book is such a different experience than the movie. It makes me want to buy the Extended Editions. Yes, I've constantly heard recommendations before, but now I have a better reason.

 

[Loxley]

At least they keep the coolest line from the riddle. I guess from the hobbits' reaction to Strider that he is not as dreamy as Viggo. I do like Viggo as Aragorn even if he does not always reach the commanding presence of his book counterpart. Makes him a bit more likeable though.

I like Dantes' suggestion from a while back that Daniel Day-Lewis would probably have been a more ideal choice for Aragorn, but Viggo does an admirable job. Aragorn isn't as "kingly" as he comes off in the text, but there's a likeability to his portrayal that I think works.

Why can't anyone in these books hold onto their ponies for more than a week? Bilbo and the dwarves went through like 3 or 4 sets through The Hobbit, and now Frodo and his gang lost their set in Bree.

Once again, one thing communicated in the books that can't really be done in the movies is distance and the time it takes to get from one place to another. in the movie, when Arwen speeds Frodo to Rivendell, it feels like the Ford is right down the block from Weathertop, but here it's much further away, but Frodo isn't unconscious the whole time either. I also like the callback to The Hobbit.

This book is such a different experience than the movie. It makes me want to buy the Extended Editions. Yes, I've constantly heard recommendations before, but now I have a better reason.

Ha, I'd never noticed that about the ponies. The EE's really are worth it though - especially Fellowship.

I'm prepping myself for the upcoming Council of Elrond. Even after all of the read-throughs of Fellowship that I've done over the years, I still find that chunk of the book to be a bit taxing.

 

[tryagainlater]

I suppose I could see Daniel Day-Lewis as a more commanding Aragorn. Wasn't there someone else cast as Aragorn right up to shortly before filming began? I wonder why he was recast so late. I wonder how different the portrayal would have been with him.

And yes, The Council of Elrond is quite difficult. I actually do enjoy extended dialogue sequences in books and I always love hearing what the powerful characters of Middle Earth like Elrond and Gandalf have to say so there are aspect of that chapter that I do very much like. I remember looking forward to the chapter on my first read-through after the movies. But then it kept going and going and going...still some enjoyable parts though.

 

[bengraven]

I suppose I could see Daniel Day-Lewis as a more commanding Aragorn. Wasn't there someone else cast as Aragorn right up to shortly before filming began? I wonder why he was recast so late. I wonder how different the portrayal would have been with him.

Stuart Townsend. He was also supposed to be Wolverine and apparently he was recast because he was a diva on set and a shitty actor. You'd think Ian would have warned Peter before Stuart even lasted a week.

 

[Loxley]

Stuart Townsend. He was also supposed to be Wolverine and apparently he was recast because he was a diva on set and a shitty actor. You'd think Ian would have warned Peter before Stuart even lasted a week.

The story Jackson tells is that he recast Aragorn two weeks into filming because he, Boyens and Walsh came to the conclusion that Townsend was ultimately too young for the character (he would have been 26 at the time, compared to Viggo who was 40). I'd never heard anything about Townsend being a diva or anything like that. But hey, he got to do League of Extraordinary Gentlemen with Sean Connery, another actor who was almost in LOTR. So uh...good for him.

 

[bengraven]

The story Jackson tells is that he recast Aragorn two weeks into filming because he, Boyens and Walsh came to the conclusion that Townsend was ultimately too young for the character (he would have been 26 at the time, compared to Viggo who was 40). I'd never heard anything about Townsend being a diva or anything like that. But hey, he got to do League of Extraordinary Gentlemen with Sean Connery, another actor who was almost in LOTR. So uh...good for him.

I might be mixing up my stories. I heard Townsend was a really tough person to act with.

 

[kess]

It's unfortunate for Townsend that he got strung along and eventually left in the lurch, but this is probably one of those rare instances where the suits were actually correct. Tolkien has an interesting remark about the positive aspects of age unaccompanied by the usual signs of weakness and senility that I am currently unable to source, but Aragorn carries Numenorean middle age pretty well considering. Daniel Day Lewis's Aragorn may have been more commanding, but there is a good chance that he would have destroyed the balance of the ensemble cast that made the films work. Gandalf should not be in the position to be out-acted by Aragorn, in the films or elsewhere.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Week five: June 8th - 15th

• Many Meetings
• The Council of Elrond
• The Ring goes South

 

[Edmond Dantès]

One thing I certainly missed from the film's depiction of the Council of Elrond was the presence of Bilbo and his offer to take the One.

Boromir's dream and Gloin's information were missed too.

But as Tom Shippey has said, a more faithful depiction would have brought the pace of the narrative to an abrupt halt and thus ruined the pacing which up to that point was nigh perfect.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

I used to always put on FotR when I would get home from school because I would fall asleep right as they arrived in Rivendell. That after school nap was the best.

As far as the book is concerned, I had forgotten how much more civil Gimli and Legolas are to one another in comparison to the movie where Gimli is a right ass to Legolas up until Moria.

 

[tryagainlater]

One thing I certainly missed from the film's depiction of the Council of Elrond was the presence of Bilbo and his offer to take the One.

Boromir's dream and Gloin's information were missed too.

But as Tom Shippey has said, a more faithful depiction would have brought the pace of the narrative to an abrupt halt and thus ruined the pacing which up to that point was nigh perfect.

Yes, I do miss Bilbo's inclusion in the Council. I really like the moment in the book when Boromir is close to laughing when Bilbo proposes to take the ring and then notices the grave respect everyone has for him. Just goes to show how much of an impression these hobbits have on the people who actually know they exist.

Speaking of Boromir, the movie has muddled my memory of the book and I'm surprised by how little he is phased by Aragorn being the rightful king. I suppose Sean Bean's "Gondor needs no king" line has stuck with me. Book Boromir doesn't seem bothered by the end of the Ruling Stewards. I suppose movie Boromir allows for more character development. That said, the Council in the book spend a lot of time on the current inadequacy of Gondor. They respect it as the Tower of the Guard but they were complaining about it and Denethor right in front of Boromir. No wonder he turned traitor

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

Yes, I do miss Bilbo's inclusion in the Council. I really like the moment in the book when Boromir is close to laughing when Bilbo proposes to take the ring and then notices the grave respect everyone has for him. Just goes to show how much of an impression these hobbits have on the people who actually know they exist.

Speaking of Boromir, the movie has muddled my memory of the book and I'm surprised by how little he is phased by Aragorn being the rightful king. I suppose Sean Bean's "Gondor needs no king" line has stuck with me. Book Boromir doesn't seem bothered by the end of the Ruling Stewards. I suppose movie Boromir allows for more character development. That said, the Council in the book spend a lot of time on the current inadequacy of Gondor. They respect it as the Tower of the Guard but they were complaining about it and Denethor right in front of Boromir. No wonder he turned traitor

The movie does give more characterization to Boromir than the book does. Heck, half the time I forgot he existed because he wouldn't pop up for pages at a time.

The movie had to characterize him as a bit of a hot head or else he'd seem too much like Aragorn. Aside from his constant desire to take the ring through Gondor, he is very stoic and intelligent and is in many ways similar to Aragorn.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

I prefer book Boromir, although the extended editions do improve the character a great deal.

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

Christopher Lee died. This is rough. Not what I wanted to see first thing this morning.

 

[AbsentMindedProf]

Reading this book again after all these years is really refreshing. There were so many details that I had forgotten, and over written by the movies. I loved the battle with the wargs. It really showed off Gandalfs power, and that Saurun/Saruman where still making moves against them at this early stage. Sauron is a much more immediate threat in the books.

What are your guys thoughts on Mt. Caradhras? The characters in the book seem to make it clear that the mountain has an ill will all of it's own, or are we to assume that Sauron brought the storm down on them?

 

[tryagainlater]

I was curious about what was happened on Caradhas myself. The movies had Saruman (RIP Christopher Lee) yelling at the mountain or something bringing some of the mountain down on top of them. This probably came from the "fell voices" that one of the Fellowship claimed they heard in the book. I felt there was more than that going on here though. Gimli seemed to think the mountain had something against Elves and Dwarves.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Reading this book again after all these years is really refreshing. There were so many details that I had forgotten, and over written by the movies. I loved the battle with the wargs. It really showed off Gandalfs power, and that Saurun/Saruman where still making moves against them at this early stage. Sauron is a much more immediate threat in the books.

What are your guys thoughts on Mt. Caradhras? The characters in the book seem to make it clear that the mountain has an ill will all of it's own, or are we to assume that Sauron brought the storm down on them?

I was curious about what was happened on Caradhas myself. The movies had Saruman (RIP Christopher Lee) yelling at the mountain or something bringing some of the mountain down on top of them. This probably came from the "fell voices" that one of the Fellowship claimed they heard in the book. I felt there was more than that going on here though. Gimli seemed to think the mountain had something against Elves and Dwarves.

Caradhas was a nature spirit akin to the Stone Giants and others that inhabited Middle-earth. Its motives were personal, rather than influenced by the likes of Sauron.

In regards to Christopher Lee, I hope he was able to complete his annual read of The Lord of the Rings. We all know how much it meant to him.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Yes, Tolkien is quite good, but the mighty Le Mans 24 Hours is this weekend. Feel free to join the discussion and follow the legendary race here:

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1058623

 

[Rhomega Beta]

The book certainly communicates how treacherous the mountains are, and how eaisly the journey could've ended then and there. I do like how Moria is presented as a choice. It's treated like going through the gates of Hell (or as going into the Dark Tower, as Boromir puts it), but I'm getting a little ahead.

I didn't have too much trouble getting through the Council of Elrond. Yes, there's a lot of exposition (which this book seems to have no shortage of), but there's still Gloin's story. Comparing the story of the One Ring between the book and the movie, I'm not too sure if it would be better to have it be like Concerning Hobbits at the beginning, or have the reader gradually discover the true nature and history as the story goes on.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

The book certainly communicates how treacherous the mountains are, and how eaisly the journey could've ended then and there. I do like how Moria is presented as a choice. It's treated like going through the gates of Hell (or as going into the Dark Tower, as Boromir puts it), but I'm getting a little ahead.

I didn't have too much trouble getting through the Council of Elrond. Yes, there's a lot of exposition (which this book seems to have no shortage of), but there's still Gloin's story. Comparing the story of the One Ring between the book and the movie, I'm not too sure if it would be better to have it be like Concerning Hobbits at the beginning, or have the reader gradually discover the true nature and history as the story goes on.

Out of the choices Peter and co had, the prologue of Fellowship turned out to be the right choice. Succinctly dealing with the history of the One and the conflict with Sauron allowed for a precise focus on the main narrative and a manageable running time.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Week six: June 15th - 21st

• A Journey in the Dark
• The Bridge of Khazad-dûm
• Lothlórien

 

[KadeYuy]

Still a week and a half behind

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

Lothlorien is such a slow chapter. Tolkien nailed the essence of time standing still perfectly.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Lothlorien is such a slow chapter. Tolkien nailed the essence of time standing still perfectly.

Yes, time passes at a much slower rate in Lothlorien in comparison to surrounding areas and J. W. Dunne's Observer 1 and Observer 2 theory is applicable.

 

[hunnies28]

What does everyone make of the Wights and their place in the Legendarium?

I've mentioned this before but that part of the book used to confuse me a lot back when I was a kid. It's been a few years so I need to read this once more.

Spoiler

I really need to catch up

 

[CapitalismSucks DonkeyBalls]

Yes, time passes at a much slower rate in Lothlorien in comparison to surrounding areas and J. W. Dunne's Observer 1 and Observer 2 theory is applicable.

Could you link a good description of those theories? I'd like to read them.

 

[Edmond Dantès]

Could you link a good description of those theories? I'd like to read them.

Yes, of course, to start with the premise:

Dunne's theory is, simply put, that all moments in time are taking place at once, at the same time. For example, if a cat were to spend its whole entire life living in a box, anyone looking into the box could see the cat's birth, life and death in the same instant - were it not for the human consciousness, which means that we perceive at a fixed rate.

According to Dunne, whilst human consciousness prevents us from seeing outside of the part of time we are "meant" to look at, whilst we are dreaming we have the ability to traverse all of time without the restriction of consciousness, leading to pre-cognitive dreams, resulting in the phenomena known as Deja vu. Henceforth, Dunne believes that we are existing in two parallel states, which requires a complete rethink of the way that we understand time.

In An Experiment with Time, Dunne discusses how a theoretical ability to perceive events outside the normal observer's stream of consciousness might be proved to exist. He also discusses some of the possible other explanations of this effect, such as déjà vu.

He proposes that observers should place themselves in environments where consciousness might best be freed and then, immediately upon their waking, note down the memories of what had been dreamed, together with the date. Later, these notes should be scanned, with possible connections drawn between them and real life events that occurred after the notes had been written.

While the first half of the book is an explanation of the theory, the latter part comprises examples of notes and later interpretations of them as possible predictions. Statistical analysis was at that time in its infancy, and no calculation of the significance of the events reported was able to be made

Dunnes's Laws of Serialism (from the book itself):

The analysis will continue, evidently, in the same fashion to infinity. There we shall have a single multidimensional field of presentation in absolute motion, travelling over a fixed substratum of objective elements extended in all the dimensions of Time. The motion of this ultimate field causes the motion of an infinite number of places of intersection between that field and the fixed elements, these places of intersection constituting fewer-dimensional fields of presentation. At infinity, again, we shall have a Time which serves to time all movements of or in the various fields of presentation. This time will be "Absolute Time," which an absolute past, present, and future. The present moment of this absolute Time must contain all the moments, "past," "present," and "future," of all the subordinate dimensions of Time.

The nature of the series is now beginning to become apparent. It is akin to the "Chinese boxes" type - the type where every term is contained in a similar but larger (in this case dimensionally larger) term.

Its law may easily be ascertained. As the first we have -

1. Every Time-travelling field of presentation is contained within a field one dimension larger, travelling in another dimension of Time, the larger field covering events which are "past" and "future," as well as "present," to the smaller field.

The second law brings in the serial observer. (This entity is not, of course, the same thing as a series of independently existing observers.)

We have seen that the contents of the instants of Time I can only be presented to the ultimate observer in succession on condition that the contents of the instants of Time 2 are being likewise successively presented, and so with the contents of the instants of all other Times in the series. This ultimate observer is, therefore, the observer of the field of presentation travelling up the dimension of Time at the infinity end of the series. As the observer of that field, he is the observer of all the lesser and contained travelling fields.

Again, O has been, from the beginning of the analysis, the place where conscious observation is taking place. So, at whatever stage we may halt, our ultimate observer at that stage is observing consciously at O. In Fig. 9, for example, observer 2, GH (coinciding with the field GH) is, like observer I, consciously observing at O. But the interesting thing is that no observer possesses this power of conscious observation in his own right; he owes it entirely to the conscious observer next above him in the series.

For the travelling conscious observer GH is the only thing which, by its intersection with the reagent O'O'', distinguishes in O'O'' the place O wherein that reagent is capable of conscious observation. Omit GH, and there is no O. Similarly, when we pass to Fig. 10, we see that the travelling field 3, G'G''H''H' coinciding with conscious observer 3, is the only thing which, by its intersection with reagent 2, DFBE, distinguishes in DFBE a line GH wherein that reagent is capable of consciously observing, as at O. Omit G'G''H''H' from the diagram, and GH, containing O, vanishes. And so it goes on throughout the series, to infinity. In short, leave out the higher conscious and successive observer, and the lower observer ceases to exist as either conscious or successive, though there still remains an unnecessary and unjustified diagonal reagent, unconscious, and reacting to everything at once.

Therefore, just as the phenomena presented for observation are all ultimately referable to the set of cerebral states with which we started at the "hither" end of the series, so all conscious observation, like all successive observation, is ultimately referable to the observer at the "far" end of the series; that is, to the observer at infinity.

("Observer at infinity" does not mean an observer infinitely remote, in either Time or Space. "Infinity" here refers merely to the numbers of terms in the series. The observer in question is merely your ordinary everyday self, "here" and "now.")

So for our second law we have -

2. The serialism of the fields of presentation involves the existence of a serial observer. In this respect every time-travelling field is the field apparent to a similarly travelling and similarly dimensioned conscious observer. Observation by any such observer is observation by all the conscious observers pertaining to the dimensionally larger fields, and is, ultimately, observation by a conscious observer at infinity.

Hence, since "attention" is only a name for concentrated conscious observation, the attention of the observer pertaining to any field must be referable to the attentions of the observers pertaining to the dimensionally larger fields, and so to the observer at infinity. But the focus of attention (the area covered by observation of a given degree of concentration must have, in each case, the same number of dimensions as have the observer and his field. In field 1 it is three-dimensional; in field 2 it is four-dimensional; and so on.

Consequently we have, as our third law -

3. The focus of attention in any field has the same number of dimensions as has that field, and is a dimensional centre of the focii of attention in all the higher fields, up to and including attention in the field at infinity.

On field of representation:

All such phenomena it styles "Presentations," and it regards them as located within the individual's private "Field of Presentation." (We shall employ this term in preference to the commoner "Field of Consciousness," which is insufficiently definite.) This field of presentation contains, at any given instant of Time, all the phenomena which happen to be offered for possible observation. Let us take a concrete example of what that means. You are now reading this book, and your field of presentation contains the visual phenomena connected with the printed letters of the word you are regarding. It contains also, at the same instant, that visual phenomenon pertaining to the little numeral at the bottom of the page. This you "failed to notice"; but the numeral in question was, clearly, inside the area covered by your vision - it was affecting your brain via the eye, its psychical "correlate" was being offered to your attention. And that statement holds good for a host of other visual phenomena. On reflection, you will also agree that the field must have then contained - presented to attention but left "unnoticed" - certain muscular sensations such as pressures against your body, quite a number of sounds, and the pleasant feeling produced by the air flowing into your lungs as you breathed.

Thus, in application to Tolkien's writings in general, and especially The Lord of the Rings, they can be interpreted in terms of a twofold handling of the dimensions of time; time both as a linear progression as in our day-to-day experience, and as a unity outside that experience, and comprehending it. In this latter sense, 'the field of time' can be viewed, or, observed, from progressively wider stances up to that of the, ultimate observer (that is us, the readers).

What is implied thereby is the ability of the observer at each stage to escape into 'other time', especially into the past, or into past times. The primary mechanism by which such escape is handled for the purposes of narrative is by way of dreams or dreaming (see for example the dreams at Tom's home), which Tolkien treats in a variety of ways. If in his desire to travel backwards into past time (Merry's dream), or times, he seems to be appealing to nostalgia, in his tendency to view the present critically through the lens of the past he is, paradoxically, as much of a modernist as other writers and artists who conventionally qualify for that title. The contrasting fates of Elves and Men, of the latter of whom it might be said that the past is their future, and the former of whom it might be said that their future is their past, typify this duality of feeling. Imagine two parallel conveyor belts; Men going in one direction, the Elves the other.

 

[tryagainlater]

Fascinating post, Dantes even if I think a lot of it goes over my head.

Turning to the Moria chapters, I found these very powerful. Tolkien is repeatedly fantastic at making everything we see seem old and have a long history but it is even more apparent with Moria. The chapters really make you appreciate Gimli and I enjoyed his song.

Something that Tolkien also was good at was creating a mysterious creature that we only ever see once. I always forget about the Watcher in the Water when reading the book or watching the movie. I suppose we don't really know much about what he is. Probably some foul creation of Morgoth that Sauron is now using for his own purposes since he went after the ring-bearer first. I suppose the Balrog appears to be one of these one-off creatures if you didn't know their history in the First Age.

The Gandalf and Balrog show down is great as anyone who has experienced the book and movie knows. Just curious about Gandalf's line "I am a servant of the Secret Fire, wielder of the flame of Anor". Is he talking about the Imperishable Fire that Eru created that Melkor always sought after? I suppose that would be a triumphant line to use against one of his servants. Or is he talking about the Elven ring he possesses. I'm pretty sure he has the fire ring, right?