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[Ashamam]

Sounds like bs to me. PSSR is not currently something that can be updated at a system level. Even if it is made so in the future (unlikely), an existing game will have to be patched to support it

Maybe, maybe not. Does anyone here have actual access to the dev documentation and/or personal experience with compiling for PS5 Pro? I mean after all Sony control the whole stack and who knows what they have implemented and just left disabled up to now, or at least left the door open for future changes. The fact Cerny was undecided suggests to me they didn't go far enough down the embedded path that it can't be changed.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Maybe, maybe not. Does anyone here have actual access to the dev documentation and/or personal experience with compiling for PS5 Pro? I mean after all Sony control the whole stack and who knows what they have implemented and just left disabled up to now, or at least left the door open for future changes. The fact Cerny was undecided suggests to me they didn't go far enough down the embedded path that it can't be changed.

It came up during the DF interview.

I think if PSSR could auto-update as an option it would drastically improve the value proposition of the ps5 pro. They also could have received that feedback from devs.

The only thing more important than that would be implementing low framerate compensation at the system level.

 

[Ashamam]

It came up during the DF interview.

I think if PSSR could auto-update as an option it would drastically improve the value proposition of the ps5 pro. They also could have received that feedback from devs.

Yeah the interview was what I was referring to. Cerny clearly saw it as a possibility but not something current. Obviously the primary issue with auto update is the risk of regression in titles. Giving users the option to opt in would be the best solution, also the option to opt back out for individual titles.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

It's an ancient TV for a 2025 console, yes.

Will a VRR TV allow us to get the most out of the Pro? Of courss. Still absurd for anyone to make an argument that Sony shouldn't patch games on Pro for non VRR tvs. For example, Uncharted 4 Remaster runs great on Pro with VRR therefore "you can't complain about Sony not patching the game" on Pro. That's one of the classic lines I always see when I disclose that I don't have VRR.

fanboy nonsense used to try to get me to shut up. Most Pro owners probably don't even have a VRR TV and was never required hardware for Pro ownership. It's not even necessary outside of a handful of games that are majorly improved with VRR. My TV still allows me to play at 40 fps btw.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Yeah the interview was what I was referring to. Cerny clearly saw it as a possibility but not something current. Obviously the primary issue with auto update is the risk of regression in titles. Giving users the option to opt in would be the best solution, also the option to opt back out for individual titles.

Giving both users and devs the option to use the latest PSSR seems like a solid compromise here. You're getting sign off on both ends the devs would have to allow that as a factor in their specific game and the user would have to allow it at the system level.

More importantly this would be kind of crucial to PS6 which is going to have a far better version of PSSR. Allowing that version of PSSR to apply to PS5 games would be a huge boon in BC.

I don't know how feasible that would be though and how opting out would work after opting in. I'd imagine that it would require a reinstallation of the game at the very least.

 

[Ashamam]

I don't know how feasible that would be though and how opting out would work after opting in. I'd imagine that it would require a reinstallation of the game at the very least.

Nope, I'm just imagining a system level opt-in setting (non power users just default to whatever the game dev packages). But if you do opt in and a particular title surfaces some issue you just use the standard game specific dashboard menu to revert back to default just for that game. So baked into every game like I'm sure a bunch of other things are, like multi resolution support/HDR etc etc. Legacy titles stick with the current arrangement, only available to games compiled under an updated SDK.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Nope, I'm just imagining a system level opt-in setting (non power users just default to whatever the game dev packages). But if you do opt in and a particular title surfaces some issue you just use the standard game specific dashboard menu to revert back to default just for that game. So baked into every game like I'm sure a bunch of other things are, like multi resolution support/HDR etc etc. Legacy titles stick with the current arrangement, only available to games compiled under an updated SDK.

I don't think it would be that simple. Even on PC, upscalers don't auto update. You can update manually yourself by updating the DLL files of the game, but to opt out of this once those DLL files have been updated would require a reinstallation of the game. It's not just a toggle as if both exist at once.

 

[Ashamam]

I don't think it would be that simple. Even on PC, upscalers don't auto update. You can update manually yourself by updating the DLL files of the game, but to opt out of this once those DLL files have been updated would require a reinstallation of the game. It's not just a toggle as if both exist at once.

Not a programmer, but it seems to me that consoles can be set up without as many legacy constraints as PC's. The language Cerny used sounded to me like it was fairly modular. Loading in an alternative at runtime sounds like a programming problem not an architecture problem. But... as I said not a programmer so I'm likely missing context like memory management, siloing or whatever.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

Not a programmer, but it seems to me that consoles can be set up without as many legacy constraints as PC's. The language Cerny used sounded to me like it was fairly modular. Loading in an alternative at runtime sounds like a programming problem not an architecture problem. But... as I said not a programmer so I'm likely missing context like memory management, siloing or whatever.

Upscaling happens on the engine level. I'd imagine there would be a major performance hit if it called upon those libraries on the system level. At best you would have to create some sort of per game caching every time you booted up the system. I just don't see how that would work. I think you'd fundamentally have to change how upscaling works, and it doesn't seem plausible.

 

[rofif]

Will a VRR TV allow us to get the most out of the Pro? Of courss. Still absurd for anyone to make an argument that Sony shouldn't patch games on Pro for non VRR tvs. For example, Uncharted 4 Remaster runs great on Pro with VRR therefore "you can't complain about Sony not patching the game" on Pro. That's one of the classic lines I always see when I disclose that I don't have VRR.

fanboy nonsense used to try to get me to shut up. Most Pro owners probably don't even have a VRR TV and was never required hardware for Pro ownership. It's not even necessary outside of a handful of games that are majorly improved with VRR. My TV still allows me to play at 40 fps btw.

Isn’t uncharted 4 on pro 4k60 essentially? There is option to lock or unlock 60 lock.

While I agree that vrr should not be a clutch, at the same time vrr long has been a standard. But it kinda sucks on oled anyway

 

[Ashamam]

Upscaling happens on the engine level. I'd imagine there would be a major performance hit if it called upon those libraries on the system level

I assume it just comes down to how PSSR works, as a runtime library loaded on the fly, or if its statically compiled into the game binary itself. In the first instance surely it would make no difference whether it was packaged with the binary or available at a system level. The overhead would be the same. But if it requires lengthy compiling, thats obviously a different story. I was assuming it was a dynamic library based around what little comments I've seen on the technical side. I did throw this at ChatGPT lol just for laughs, this was the end result after a bit of back and forth. Sidenote, is there some type of accepted AI quote tag emerging anywhere?

According to ChatGPT-4 Turbo

Yeah, that logic makes sense. If PSSR functions as a runtime library that games load dynamically, then whether it’s packaged with the game or available at the system level wouldn’t make much difference in terms of overhead—it would just be a matter of where the library is sourced from at runtime.
The key question is whether PSSR requires preprocessing at compile time (which would mean it’s more of an SDK feature baked into game binaries) or if it operates purely at runtime as a dynamically loaded module (which would allow system-wide substitution).
From the little technical info available, it does seem more like a dynamically linked runtime component rather than something that needs to be statically compiled into each game. If it were a per-game compiled feature, you’d expect developers to need to explicitly integrate it, and we’d see more mention of it in dev-facing materials. Instead, everything suggests it’s a system-level enhancement applied automatically.
Unless Sony clarifies further, the safest assumption is that PSSR is a runtime feature applied by the PlayStation OS, not something games directly compile in.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

I assume it just comes down to how PSSR works, as a runtime library loaded on the fly, or if its statically compiled into the game binary itself. In the first instance surely it would make no difference whether it was packaged with the binary or available at a system level. The overhead would be the same. But if it requires lengthy compiling, thats obviously a different story. I was assuming it was a dynamic library based around what little comments I've seen on the technical side. I did throw this at ChatGPT lol just for laughs, this was the end result after a bit of back and forth. Sidenote, is there some type of accepted AI quote tag emerging anywhere?

Don't listen to chatgpt, the best source on how PSSR works is actually Mark Cerny who has discussed how PSSR works. ChatGPT is just answering your question based on how you asked it.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

LG oled c8 120 hz but no vrr

Yeah what a piece of shit TV i have ya clown. And surely there are plenty of people who bought a Pro that also don't have VRR TVs ...your "point" doesn't address Sony's laziness at all.

Not to mention having a VRR TV doesn't solve issues all the issues with the Pro, only certain games with variable framerates. Does a VRR TV solve the broken ambient occlusion with PSSR in games like DD2 or Silent Hill ? The flickering shadows seen in certain games Pro version like Last of Us 2's Santa Barbara level? The RT noise we see with PSSR? The lack of patches from other Sony titles? The lack of significant graphical improvement to many games? The lack of patches for many games?

No, didn't think so.

It's an ancient TV for a 2025 console, yes.

brenobnfm is exactly right here. I have three TVs, one of which is also a LG C8. The LG C8 came out in early 2018. It's a nearly 7 year old television. So yes, while it was a premier television at the time, it is nearly a decade old and is missing out on key features. 7 years is about time to replace any tv. The LG C8 is actually my 3rd television. It's in my attic and is barely used. I have two LG CXs (bedroom and living room) and just recently upgraded by AV receiver to an 8k receiver so that I could fully utilize my speaker system and have HDMI 2.1 ports on the receiver.

F Feel Like I'm On 42 most of your nitpicks are laughable, especially coming from someone using a 7 year old TV. Flickering shadows in one area of a game that was originally released in 2020? LOL... come on. We're talking about a 10 dollar upgrade. Lack of patches? So many games have been patched so far and the list continues to bloom. There are market realities and technical realities and not every game is going to be patched or patched quickly.

Real or bullshitter?

viveks86 jm89 So I looked a little bit more into this and looked at the original source for this news. It's from someone who claims to be a former Sony developer (whom I don't see in any credits for the games he claimed he worked on). His track record with leaks is beyond poor. Literally everything he says is lies. He's a troll account.

 

[vkbest]

Sounds like bs to me. PSSR is not currently something that can be updated at a system level. Even if it is made so in the future (unlikely), an existing game will have to be patched to support it

They can improve the inference algorithm to improve performance and apply denoisers automatically they are not doing currently. Anyway I don’t believe that tweet, but some things can improve even if you are using old model

 

[brenobnfm]

Will a VRR TV allow us to get the most out of the Pro? Of courss. Still absurd for anyone to make an argument that Sony shouldn't patch games on Pro for non VRR tvs. For example, Uncharted 4 Remaster runs great on Pro with VRR therefore "you can't complain about Sony not patching the game" on Pro. That's one of the classic lines I always see when I disclose that I don't have VRR.

fanboy nonsense used to try to get me to shut up. Most Pro owners probably don't even have a VRR TV and was never required hardware for Pro ownership. It's not even necessary outside of a handful of games that are majorly improved with VRR. My TV still allows me to play at 40 fps btw.

"Most Pro owners probably don't even have a VRR TV and was never required hardware for Pro ownership."

That's one of the most idiotic things i've read in a while, you can use a PS5 on a 2007 720p TV, not even a 1080p TV is required, it's just stupid.

Almost any game without 60fps cap will have a lot of fluctuation on consoles, for obvious reasons and there's no optimization that will make games run at locked 120fps with great image quality, it's hard enough at 60fps, which also benefits from VRR for sub 60 range, so yeah, VRR is a must and it's on you if you chose to spend your budget on a brand new console without the bare minimum display to let the console do its job, it's on you.

 

[HeisenbergFX4]

Added Blades of Fire

https://store.playstation.com/en-us/concept/10011854

 

[Alebrije]

Some screenshots I've taken from SW Outlaws in balanced mode with PSSR enabled. The only issue I have with the Pro version is the rather low res RT reflections, other than that it looks and plays great in the 40 fps balanced mode (I'm 10h in).

Yep of there is one good stuff that UBI does is their games landscapes and specially on sunsets or early morning, they look great on PRO but in general good on base PS5.

 

[Mibu no ookami]

"Most Pro owners probably don't even have a VRR TV and was never required hardware for Pro ownership."

That's one of the most idiotic things i've read in a while, you can use a PS5 on a 2007 720p TV, not even a 1080p TV is required, it's just stupid.

Almost any game without 60fps cap will have a lot of fluctuation on consoles, for obvious reasons and there's no optimization that will make games run at locked 120fps with great image quality, it's hard enough at 60fps, which also benefits from VRR for sub 60 range, so yeah, VRR is a must and it's on you if you chose to spend your budget on a brand new console without the bare minimum display to let the console do its job, it's on you.

Can you imagine publicly complaining about your PS4 era TV not being able to fully utilize a console released in 2024?

Inherently we're still stuck in a paradigm where many gamers are knowledgeable enough but lack the critical thinking skills to realize a few things

• We're near the end of rasterization improvements in gaming
  • Native 4K is expensive and native 8K is borderline impossible
• There are two big elements in gaming when it comes to graphics moving forward
  • Lighting, i.e. raytracing and path tracing
  • Super Resolution i.e. ML upscaling

The next big thing for tv manufacturers is going to be 8K, but everyone knows there is diminishing returns. The best use case for 8K is sports and video games.

We're already seeing 8KTVs with 4K240hz and 8K120hz like the Samsung 900D. These TVs are going to have to have lower power consumption to be sold in Europe, but that's where we're probably heading.

Imagine buying a PS6 or a PS6 Pro and complaining that your flagship tv from 2018 won't run Gran Turismo at 4K120, which is probably going to be the default performance mode.

 

[viveks86]

Maybe, maybe not. Does anyone here have actual access to the dev documentation and/or personal experience with compiling for PS5 Pro? I mean after all Sony control the whole stack and who knows what they have implemented and just left disabled up to now, or at least left the door open for future changes. The fact Cerny was undecided suggests to me they didn't go far enough down the embedded path that it can't be changed.

Like Mibu no ookami said, Cerny’s interview shed light on this. The issue isn’t as much technical as it is about allowing dev control. Sony has always been very conservative about what they do system wide. They don’t want to be blamed for releasing something that adversely affects a specific game. I think the choice is always there to externalize libraries and they can go down that path with sufficient dev feedback. May be there is some happy medium down the line where devs can either choose to embed a version of pssr or automatically use the latest available via system software.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

Can you imagine publicly complaining about your PS4 era TV not being able to fully utilize a console released in 2024?

Inherently we're still stuck in a paradigm where many gamers are knowledgeable enough but lack the critical thinking skills to realize a few things

• We're near the end of rasterization improvements in gaming
  • Native 4K is expensive and native 8K is borderline impossible
• There are two big elements in gaming when it comes to graphics moving forward
  • Lighting, i.e. raytracing and path tracing
  • Super Resolution i.e. ML upscaling

The next big thing for tv manufacturers is going to be 8K, but everyone knows there is diminishing returns. The best use case for 8K is sports and video games.

We're already seeing 8KTVs with 4K240hz and 8K120hz like the Samsung 900D. These TVs are going to have to have lower power consumption to be sold in Europe, but that's where we're probably heading.

Imagine buying a PS6 or a PS6 Pro and complaining that your flagship tv from 2018 won't run Gran Turismo at 4K120, which is probably going to be the default performance mode.

Why are you jumping ahead to PS6 and PS6 Pro clown? My TV does 120 hz so I can still play at 40 fps btw, only problem is some games have crushed blacks due to compression.

I wasn't complaining about not getting HDMI 2.1 features in games, dumb dumb, I was complaining about Sony not patching games like Uncharted 4 Remaster for Pro, which they haven't. So, there is a significant portion of 4k tv owners (non hdmi 2.1 owners) that get zero benefit from playing that incredibly popular ps5 exclusive on the Pro. My not having an hdmi 2.1 TV is IRRELEVANT to my complaint. That complaint is 100% justifiable. We bought Sony's new $800 console. The LEAST we should expect is for Sony to patch their PS5 library.

Thanks for proving my point though that desperate Pro fanboys will stop at nothing to steer the conversation away from criticism of Sony

 

[Guardian Monkey]

Why are you jumping ahead to PS6 and PS6 Pro clown? My TV does 120 hz so I can still play at 40 fps btw, only problem is some games have crushed blacks due to compression.

I wasn't complaining about not getting HDMI 2.1 features in games, dumb dumb, I was complaining about Sony not patching games like Uncharted 4 Remaster for Pro, which they haven't. So, there is a significant portion of 4k tv owners (non hdmi 2.1 owners) that get zero benefit from playing that incredibly popular ps5 exclusive on the Pro. My not having an hdmi 2.1 TV is IRRELEVANT to my complaint. That complaint is 100% justifiable. We bought Sony's new $800 console. The LEAST we should expect is for Sony to patch their PS5 library.

Thanks for proving my point though that desperate Pro fanboys will stop at nothing to steer the conversation away from criticism of Sony

But they didn’t patch all the Sony published ps4 games that came out prior for the ps4pro. We already have precedent for this last gen. So really you shouldn’t expect anything for prior games by Sony on the ps5. Want sure, would like sure, but expect no.

 

[brenobnfm]

Why are you jumping ahead to PS6 and PS6 Pro clown? My TV does 120 hz so I can still play at 40 fps btw, only problem is some games have crushed blacks due to compression.

I wasn't complaining about not getting HDMI 2.1 features in games, dumb dumb, I was complaining about Sony not patching games like Uncharted 4 Remaster for Pro, which they haven't. So, there is a significant portion of 4k tv owners (non hdmi 2.1 owners) that get zero benefit from playing that incredibly popular ps5 exclusive on the Pro. My not having an hdmi 2.1 TV is IRRELEVANT to my complaint. That complaint is 100% justifiable. We bought Sony's new $800 console. The LEAST we should expect is for Sony to patch their PS5 library.

Thanks for proving my point though that desperate Pro fanboys will stop at nothing to steer the conversation away from criticism of Sony

The game having unlocked frame rate was already made with the intention of future proofing for better hardware. Get a better TV.

 

[Feel Like I'm On 42]

"Most Pro owners probably don't even have a VRR TV and was never required hardware for Pro ownership."

That's one of the most idiotic things i've read in a while, you can use a PS5 on a 2007 720p TV, not even a 1080p TV is required, it's just stupid.

Almost any game without 60fps cap will have a lot of fluctuation on consoles, for obvious reasons and there's no optimization that will make games run at locked 120fps with great image quality, it's hard enough at 60fps, which also benefits from VRR for sub 60 range, so yeah, VRR is a must and it's on you if you chose to spend your budget on a brand new console without the bare minimum display to let the console do its job, it's on you.

OK buddy. What's more idiotic, my statement that most Pro owners still don't own hdmi 2.1 or you thinking that "hdmi 2.1 is required in order to complain about the Pro" and that Sony is totally justified ignoring patches for regular 4k tv Pro owners?? You do realize all the benefits of 120hz are true of base PS5 as well, right? But the Pro is now in a special category now because it's an upgrade? It's so "idiotic" to assume that the amount of HDMI 2.1 tv owners of the Pro is, while most probably greater, not some drastically different percentage than regular Ps5 owners?

My c8 allows me to play in 40 fps modes too btw I just dont have VRR and 120 hz at 4k doesn't work. I can however play Balanced mode with 4k with crushed blacks in most games, which can be worked around by adjusting gammaand not patching their own exclusives and anyone who complains without owning an hdmi 2.1 tv is idiotic for expecting them too.

You actually think I'm wrong for complaining about Sony not patching their own games....like, wtf man? This is what I'm talking about when I say that console gamers have learned to accept the absolute bare minimum and be happy about it ....to the point where you'll start throwing insults to people who dare to challenge the status quo.

I'm really starting to think that this place is filled with some nasty individuals.

 

[Clear]

Sounds like bs to me. PSSR is not currently something that can be updated at a system level. Even if it is made so in the future (unlikely), an existing game will have to be patched to support it

The impression I got was that its a 2 part process. There's an OS based component, but it requires per-title patching/updating to access.
Which makes sense as modification to the OS component whilst potentially improving output, may incur additional cost in either compute time or system resources.

To be honest making the developer "opt-in" is the right choice if they know they are going to continually work on the system level part. Presumably when accessing the API the dev passes in method and parameter values that are specifically chosen based on what they deem to be optimal for their game. So were those same inputs to have a different result with system software versions they'd potentially be creating a massive rock for their back.

 

[HeWhoWalks]

fanboy nonsense used to try to get me to shut up

Why are you jumping ahead to PS6 and PS6 Pro clown?

I'm really starting to think that this place is filled with some nasty individuals.

 

[thatJohann]

I don’t understand something.

How come all the first party Pro enhanced games that came out back when the Pro came out have beautiful PSSR support like Rift Apart, Spidey 2, both TLOU games? Wouldn’t they be using the early rough version of PSSR?

How come they didn’t have the same issues third party games coming out now still mostly have?

 

[Ashamam]

How come they didn’t have the same issues third party games coming out now still mostly have?

Models were likely trained on first party output specifically. Keep in mind training models require very high quality native output in order to 'learn' how to get there from a lower quality. I'd imagine that would present some issues for console only games.

At least thats my understanding.

 

[SKYF@ll]

I don’t understand something.

How come all the first party Pro enhanced games that came out back when the Pro came out have beautiful PSSR support like Rift Apart, Spidey 2, both TLOU games? Wouldn’t they be using the early rough version of PSSR?

How come they didn’t have the same issues third party games coming out now still mostly have?

For example, if the internal resolution is 1080p and the RT reflection resolution is 540p, even the best upscaler will have a hard time outputting it to 4K.
If the depth of field, lighting, shadows, and reflection resolutions are too low on the base PS5, more noticeable artifacts will appear on PSSR.
Third-party games with stable, high-quality images like FF7R, The First Descendant, and Fortnite should have been well tuned.
I don't think anyone is playing 720-860p on PC by upscaling it to 4K. (The majority of people upscale to 1080p or 1440p.)
PSSR will improve over the next year with version upgrades and further optimization.
Only games that have added multiple RT to the PS5 Pro and significantly reduced the resolution in a time-pressure situation have serious problems.

 

[viveks86]

I don’t understand something.

How come all the first party Pro enhanced games that came out back when the Pro came out have beautiful PSSR support like Rift Apart, Spidey 2, both TLOU games? Wouldn’t they be using the early rough version of PSSR?

How come they didn’t have the same issues third party games coming out now still mostly have?

You got some good responses. All those games you listed have a clean enough/high quality input before upscaling. It appears PSSR tends to exaggerate issues when the input itself is noisy/low quality. You will notice this even in TLOU 2 for some soft shadows in the beginning areas (tree shadows mostly) as well as in Santa Barbara. And PSSR does not currently have its own denoising capabilities. These will either get added to PSSR in the future or will be an add on component to the Playstation “Spectral” brand of libraries. So when the input itself is noisy like in silent hill 2 or Jedi survivor, PSSR struggles and is worse than a traditional temporal anti aliasing/upscaling, which inherently denoises across consecutive frames. This is bound to improve with time, with newer versions and when games are built with PSSR in mind.

Denoising is still an issue (especially with ray tracing) with no perfect realtime solution yet. Even Nvidia has room to improve, even though they are miles ahead with their ray reconstruction and dlss 4. Project Amethyst will likely tackle this and it’s all bound to get better over the years. This is where leaps will be made in hardware capabilities next generation as rasterization has hit a ceiling in terms of cost per transistor.

 

[Mahavastu]

I don't know how feasible that would be though and how opting out would work after opting in. I'd imagine that it would require a reinstallation of the game at the very least.

Currently the devs ship with the PSSR version coming with the SDK the game was compiled with. So it came that some games at the launch of the PS5 Pro were shipping with an old version of PSSR and looked not that great, but the games looked better, when being compiled with a new SDK version.
One idea would be to put the SDK as part of the OS and allow games to use this in addition or instead of the version in the current and tested SDK. This would allow Sony to ship new versions of PSSR with a new Firmware update. Also with the PS6, which will most likely come with way more AI processor power those games could get a major boost in image quality.

One potential problem could be fear of potential regressions. One would be that a firmware change by Sony could result in a huge grafik errors in some smaller games without anyone noticing before the release of the new firmware. But then, how often did that happen with new DLSS versions?
Or the new PSSR version could be slightly slower and some games might now miss the 60fps more often.