Surely there will be much more with Snoke. And I agree.
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LTTP: Star Wars 1-7 (Mainly Prequels-TFA)
- Thread starter DarkLordMalik
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Surely there will be much more with Snoke. And I agree.
I pretty much agree with this but RotS is still better. I loved AotC when it came out, then I slowly descended into hating it, and now I enjoy about half of it and scratch my head at the rest. At least the Naboo stuff is beautiful enough visually that I can just ignore whenever Anakin and Padme are talking and look at the scenery and art design.
DarkLordMalik
Member
Good to hear your opinions. It is nice to know that there are others who enjoyed RotS and put it over RotJ
I also feel like I need to give the movie another chance. Maybe I will give it a rewatch once the trilogy is fully out and my views might change by then.
The one thing I will give the PT series is that scores were always great. John Williams is masterful at what he's does lol.
Dash_Riprock
Member
Score is the only part of prequels I cannot fault.
QuantumZebra
Member
You can't be serious.
Expecting the audience to understand basic movie concepts??
Surely this is some sort of liberal movie-nazi propaganda.
I'm still grappling with the fact that someone knowingly put Attack of the Clones over A New Hope ...
I mean what the fucking fuck
I mean what the fucking fuck
Oh there is plenty of insulting dialog in TFA.
Like the scene where Snoke has to remind Kylo Ren that his fathers name is Han Solo. Or the scene where Kylo Ren refers to Darth Vader's helmet as grandfather just so the newbies in the audience make the connection, or that Han and Leia constantly refer to Kylo as "our son" rather than his actual name.
Like the scene where Snoke has to remind Kylo Ren that his fathers name is Han Solo. Or the scene where Kylo Ren refers to Darth Vader's helmet as grandfather just so the newbies in the audience make the connection, or that Han and Leia constantly refer to Kylo as "our son" rather than his actual name.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Dear god....
I can't believe that Internet can still have opinions that shock me this much. But every time I think I've seen it all....
WadiumArcadium
Member
Second only to Empire in my opinion.
Duane Cunningham
Member
Which part is unreasonable? Like I said, it's still close to the bottom of the list for me, but there are some things I like about it, as detailed.
Pagusas
Elden Member
After my recent rewatch with the wife:
1. Empire Strikes Back - The Hallmark film of Star Wars and deserving so. This film single handedly raised star wars above the scifi field and made it into something greater. The cinematography is amazing and still holds us, some of the shots are just gorgeous. It threw away the slow/old cinema pacing and styles of A New Hope and brought in modern cinema aspects that truely help Star Wars grow. Faster editing, better lighting, better sets, characters that are more than their early 20th century pulp generalizations. Where New Hope was a fun fantasy ride that set things up, Empire is what makes Star Wars special. Anyone who doesnt rank Empire as #1 is nuts. Empire Strikes back is Like Prisoner of Azkaban to me as a metaphor in a film seires. PoA was the first and only Harry Potter film to transcend in both direction, pacing, production quality and overall emotion, its the only Potter film to feel like a real quality film that cares about being the best possible FILM is can be. Empire is like that, its the only Star Wars film that cares about being the best possible film it can be. Not the best sci fi, not the best fantasy, it competes as a film against all other films (no its not the best film ever made, but it has the qualities of many of the best). If it was a house metaphor, Empire would be the house with the best finishes and quality on the inside and out. All the other films would be pretty on the outside but with questionable finished on the inside (except the prequels, which would just be burning landfills)
<--A decent gap-->
2. The Force Awakens - This will seem high to some, but after rewatching it on Bluray just a few nights ago, I still feel the same about it: It brought Star Wars back and hit all the points us fans have been crying for for so long. The crew at Disney gets it, they know what makes Star Wars tick, visually, thematically and emotionally. Is the filmed flawed? OMG yes. It has tons of flaws, its by no means a perfect film, and some parts are just stupid or undercooked. But it has heart, it has the star wars soul, its setup a lot of characters that can grow into great roles (none of them have reached that point yet, but nor did they in A New Hope). At the end of the day this was the first Star Wars film to make me feel giddy and like a little kid again sense I watched A New Hope back in the late 80's (wasnt born when it came out).
3. Return of the Jedi - This will be the most controversial part of my list, and I'm fine with that. I like it more than A New Hope. I just do. I'm not a fan of the Old Cinema style of editing, pacing and overall story mechanics used in A New Hope. Jedi moves quickly (except when it doesn't which drops it down below TFA) it sets up lots of Star Wars mainstays in the canon, it finally gives us some awesome space battles and the throne room fight end caps the OT perfectly. Sadly production qualities took a major hit from Empire thanks to an idiotic choice of directors who Lucas basically had to hand hold through the whole thing. I dont mind the Ewoks, in fact I find them cute and fun, though I hate that they were used in the end battle in such a way, the film would be better with the forest moon section substantially reduced. At the end of the day Jedi is rewatchable over and over again, it holds up decently (not as well as Empire), its fun, and it carries the universe accross the finish line (huffing and weazing and nearly falling flat on its face, but it still crossed!)
4. A New Hope - Dont hate me for this one, its only low in the way that #4 on this list is still in my top 20 films ever! I just feel A New Hope is a chore to rewatch. Scenes take forever to play out, the acting is suspect across the bored (and thats ok, it plays into the genre Lucas was imitating, but Empire shows us how much better this could have been) the editing is old school cinema (slow, takes a lot of time, holds onto shots for excruciating amounts of time). Overall its just a hard film to enjoy anymore for me, I want to love it, I love seeing my favorite characters, but I've come to represent them by their Empire personas, so A New Hope always feels like The Muppet Babies to me. Overall still a watershed moment in film, just stuck in a weird transitional period between classical films and modern films that the editing and pacing of it make it hard to sit through. This was the least favorite of my wife's and nearly made her not want to watch any more Star Wars. I get why this film is so highly thought of by everyone, I really do, and I appreciate its existence for both film history and the creation of Star Wars, I just dont really enjoy watching it.
<A huge smelly swamp, mountain range and ocean separates the quality of these films from the above. If you like the below films I think you have something wrong in the head>
5. Revenge of the Sith - The most competent of the prequels, and yet still feels like an armature production with no heart or soul. Poor Ewan, your talents where completely wasted on this (And I would like to see him as Obi Wan again, with a compitant director and script). The opening sequence was beautiful then completely ruined by droid humor. The love story was an abortion in ATOC and just as bad here. I can go on an on but honestly so many reviews have been done of this horrible film I'd just been adding to the white noise. Basically I agree with RLM on their points.
6. Phantom Menace - The only reason this is not equal with AOTC is it has some fun moments and a few sparks of interesting things, however I'll never forgive this film for making me leave the theater opening day wondering what the hell happen to Star Wars. Honestly until TFA came out, I had questioned if Star Wars was dead as a decent quality film production because of this film. I though by the time they ever revisited it people who like this piece of shit will be in charge of the industry and be clamoring for films like it. Thank god we've overall shunned this film and insured it is considered grade A garbage.
7. Attack of the clones - Its one of the worst films I've ever sat through, and continues to get worse everytime I've had to rewatch it.
1. Empire Strikes Back - The Hallmark film of Star Wars and deserving so. This film single handedly raised star wars above the scifi field and made it into something greater. The cinematography is amazing and still holds us, some of the shots are just gorgeous. It threw away the slow/old cinema pacing and styles of A New Hope and brought in modern cinema aspects that truely help Star Wars grow. Faster editing, better lighting, better sets, characters that are more than their early 20th century pulp generalizations. Where New Hope was a fun fantasy ride that set things up, Empire is what makes Star Wars special. Anyone who doesnt rank Empire as #1 is nuts. Empire Strikes back is Like Prisoner of Azkaban to me as a metaphor in a film seires. PoA was the first and only Harry Potter film to transcend in both direction, pacing, production quality and overall emotion, its the only Potter film to feel like a real quality film that cares about being the best possible FILM is can be. Empire is like that, its the only Star Wars film that cares about being the best possible film it can be. Not the best sci fi, not the best fantasy, it competes as a film against all other films (no its not the best film ever made, but it has the qualities of many of the best). If it was a house metaphor, Empire would be the house with the best finishes and quality on the inside and out. All the other films would be pretty on the outside but with questionable finished on the inside (except the prequels, which would just be burning landfills)
<--A decent gap-->
2. The Force Awakens - This will seem high to some, but after rewatching it on Bluray just a few nights ago, I still feel the same about it: It brought Star Wars back and hit all the points us fans have been crying for for so long. The crew at Disney gets it, they know what makes Star Wars tick, visually, thematically and emotionally. Is the filmed flawed? OMG yes. It has tons of flaws, its by no means a perfect film, and some parts are just stupid or undercooked. But it has heart, it has the star wars soul, its setup a lot of characters that can grow into great roles (none of them have reached that point yet, but nor did they in A New Hope). At the end of the day this was the first Star Wars film to make me feel giddy and like a little kid again sense I watched A New Hope back in the late 80's (wasnt born when it came out).
3. Return of the Jedi - This will be the most controversial part of my list, and I'm fine with that. I like it more than A New Hope. I just do. I'm not a fan of the Old Cinema style of editing, pacing and overall story mechanics used in A New Hope. Jedi moves quickly (except when it doesn't which drops it down below TFA) it sets up lots of Star Wars mainstays in the canon, it finally gives us some awesome space battles and the throne room fight end caps the OT perfectly. Sadly production qualities took a major hit from Empire thanks to an idiotic choice of directors who Lucas basically had to hand hold through the whole thing. I dont mind the Ewoks, in fact I find them cute and fun, though I hate that they were used in the end battle in such a way, the film would be better with the forest moon section substantially reduced. At the end of the day Jedi is rewatchable over and over again, it holds up decently (not as well as Empire), its fun, and it carries the universe accross the finish line (huffing and weazing and nearly falling flat on its face, but it still crossed!)
4. A New Hope - Dont hate me for this one, its only low in the way that #4 on this list is still in my top 20 films ever! I just feel A New Hope is a chore to rewatch. Scenes take forever to play out, the acting is suspect across the bored (and thats ok, it plays into the genre Lucas was imitating, but Empire shows us how much better this could have been) the editing is old school cinema (slow, takes a lot of time, holds onto shots for excruciating amounts of time). Overall its just a hard film to enjoy anymore for me, I want to love it, I love seeing my favorite characters, but I've come to represent them by their Empire personas, so A New Hope always feels like The Muppet Babies to me. Overall still a watershed moment in film, just stuck in a weird transitional period between classical films and modern films that the editing and pacing of it make it hard to sit through. This was the least favorite of my wife's and nearly made her not want to watch any more Star Wars. I get why this film is so highly thought of by everyone, I really do, and I appreciate its existence for both film history and the creation of Star Wars, I just dont really enjoy watching it.
<A huge smelly swamp, mountain range and ocean separates the quality of these films from the above. If you like the below films I think you have something wrong in the head>
5. Revenge of the Sith - The most competent of the prequels, and yet still feels like an armature production with no heart or soul. Poor Ewan, your talents where completely wasted on this (And I would like to see him as Obi Wan again, with a compitant director and script). The opening sequence was beautiful then completely ruined by droid humor. The love story was an abortion in ATOC and just as bad here. I can go on an on but honestly so many reviews have been done of this horrible film I'd just been adding to the white noise. Basically I agree with RLM on their points.
6. Phantom Menace - The only reason this is not equal with AOTC is it has some fun moments and a few sparks of interesting things, however I'll never forgive this film for making me leave the theater opening day wondering what the hell happen to Star Wars. Honestly until TFA came out, I had questioned if Star Wars was dead as a decent quality film production because of this film. I though by the time they ever revisited it people who like this piece of shit will be in charge of the industry and be clamoring for films like it. Thank god we've overall shunned this film and insured it is considered grade A garbage.
7. Attack of the clones - Its one of the worst films I've ever sat through, and continues to get worse everytime I've had to rewatch it.
Soapbox Killer
Grand Nagus
The second half of Attack of the Clones isn't that bad. Everything that happens from the point Obi-Wan lands on Geonosis till the end of the of the film is pretty solid. I will admit that. And I half AotC last in the list by a fair margin.
Edit: for reference purposes
Empire Strikes Back
A New Hope
Revenge of the Sith
The Force Awakens
Return of the Jedi
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
Edit: for reference purposes
Empire Strikes Back
A New Hope
Revenge of the Sith
The Force Awakens
Return of the Jedi
The Phantom Menace
Attack of the Clones
Pagusas
Elden Member
Really? I'd dare say the 2nd half is worse than the first.
C3P0 Body swap
R2 Rocketeer
Somehow making lots of Jedi fighting look silly
Some of the worst battle CG ever seen in a high production bluckbuster
The Yoda fight
I'd say the only good part of AOTC is Obi Wans journey to the clone factory. It was visually interesting, the rain fight was something new, the space battle was fun. That small 15 minute section of the film is really all I see of it as redeemable, and even that is only from the visual side, the actual story/canon issues that whole part causes are rather bizarly played out (given how Lucas redubed the storm troppers in the OT).
Feels bad for all the fantastic actors in the prequels. I bet they feel a bit pissed off about the deserved success of Force Awakens as they wanted to be in that film instead of being, in the worst case, three whole movies worth fuckall. Hopefully the newer films cast them in some other supporting roles.
Vault Dweller 111
Member
Yea, I wasn't just talking about you. I just happened to quote your post. My bad.
Much more offensive is the people putting TFA at the bottom, or worst of all AOTC above ANH.
Soapbox Killer
Grand Nagus
My problem with Ep II is the whole "Syfo-Dias ordered the Clone Army" in secret but Palpatine and The Jedi accept it as fact, ask no questions and just go fight blindly. The over arcing story is my problem. The campy droid stuff and the Jedi fighting was fine. Yoda's back and forth with Count Dooku was ok and the fight was, not as good as Darth Maul but still cool.
Here's something I would have like to have heard in it's entirety:
Citizens of the civilized galaxy, on this day we mark a transition. For a thousand years, the Republic stood as the crowning achievement of civilized beings. But there were those who would set us against one another, and we took up arms to defend our way of life against the Separatists. In so doing, we never suspected that the greatest threat came from within.
The Jedi, and some within our own Senate, had conspired to create the shadow of Separatism using one of their own as the enemy's leader. They had hoped to grind the Republic into ruin. But the hatred in their hearts could not be hidden forever. At last, there came a day when our enemies showed their true natures.
The Jedi hoped to unleash their destructive power against the Republic by assassinating the head of government and usurping control of the clone army. But the aims of would-be tyrants were valiantly opposed by those without elitist, dangerous powers. Our loyal clone troopers contained the insurrection within the Jedi Temple and quelled uprisings on a thousand worlds.
The remaining Jedi will be hunted down and defeated! Any collaborators will suffer the same fate. These have been trying times, but we have passed the test. The attempt on my life has left me scarred and deformed, but I assure you my resolve has never been stronger. The war is over. The Separatists have been defeated, and the Jedi rebellion has been foiled. We stand on the threshold of a new beginning. In order to ensure our security and continuing stability, the Republic will be reorganized into the first Galactic Empire, for a safe and secure society, which I assure you will last for ten thousand years. An Empire that will continue to be ruled by this august body and a sovereign ruler chosen for life. An Empire ruled by the majority, ruled by a new constitution!
By bringing the entire galaxy under one law, one language, and the enlightened guidance of one individual, the corruption that plagued the Republic in its later years will never take root. Regional governors will eliminate the bureaucracy that allowed the Separatist movement to grow unchecked. A strong and growing military will ensure the rule of law.
Under the Empire's New Order, our most cherished beliefs will be safeguarded. We will defend our ideals by force of arms. We will give no ground to our enemies and will stand together against attacks from within or without. Let the enemies of the Empire take heed: those who challenge Imperial resolve will be crushed.
We have taken on a task that will be difficult, but the people of the Empire are ready for the challenge. Because of our efforts, the galaxy has traded war for peace and anarchy for stability. Billions of beings now look forward to a secure future. The Empire will grow as more planets feel the call, from the Rim to the wilds of unknown space.
Imperial citizens must do their part. Join our grand star fleet. Become the eyes of the Empire by reporting suspected insurrectionists. Travel to the corners of the galaxy to spread the principles of the New Order to barbarians. Build monuments and technical wonders that will speak of our glory for generations to come.
The clone troopers, now proudly wearing the name of Imperial stormtroopers, have tackled the dangerous work of fighting our enemies on the front lines. Many have died in their devotion to the Empire. Imperial citizens would do well to remember their example.
The New Order of peace has triumphed over the shadowy secrecy of shameful magicians. The direction of our course is clear. I will lead the Empire to glories beyond imagining.
We have been tested, but we have emerged stronger. We move forward as one people: the Imperial citizens of the first Galactic Empire. We will prevail. Ten thousand years of peace begins today
Declaration of the New Order
Emperor Palpatine
None of this is "insulting", lol. A lot of this is done for the audience and there's nothing wrong with it. Han/Leia haven't seen each other for a while and aren't together anymore. It's possible it's too difficult to actually even say his name since he turned to the dark side. There were already having difficulty even referring to him in any capacity ("I know when you look at me you're reminded of him"), so it's not out of the realm of possibility that she/he doesn't want to actually refer to him as Ben. You can see how difficult it was for Han to call out his son's name on the bridge.
Your spot on about the best lightsaber duels in prequels. RoTS was awesome.
Obi Wan came of more of a badass then the OT. In fact im hoping that Disney go ahead with an Obi Wan film with Ewan, he was superb.
Obi Wan came of more of a badass then the OT. In fact im hoping that Disney go ahead with an Obi Wan film with Ewan, he was superb.
I still can't believe they wasted Natalie Portman like that (not saying she wasn't coasting throughout II and III herself, III especially). She's had a few blunders but she has mad potential that can be transforming. Padme felt so.. weak.. after The Phantom Menace. It was like they gave up on her being a character and became more interested in making her Anakin's crux.
How about Hux's line to Snoke "We will destroy the organization that supports the Resistance, The Republic.
Like Snoke doesn't know who the fuck he's talking about. Movie does it over and over. It's insulting to the viewers intelligence.
There's nothing wrong with filling in some background info about who is fighting and why. There's not a whole lot said about the republic (and its connection to the resistance) in the film.
This is some serious nitpicking, jesus. For the most part, the film respects its audience and allows them to make inferences on their own.
How is the audience supposed to know who the the republic is and why they are significant to the plot without explaining it in some way? It's been a few decades, I think they're allowed to fill us in on what happened via dialogue.
WadiumArcadium
Member
I saw a lot of people posting in TFA threads after they'd watched the film saying they didn't understand the relationship between the Resistance and the Republic, so I'd say the inclusion of that line is warranted, even if they didn't listen to it.
Yeah, this is a non-issue.
How about integrating that information into the story in a way that doesn't require its characters to speak in unnaturally?
There was nothing outstandingly unnatural about it. I've seen the film 10 times and have never even thought about this line being an issue.
People are really reaching now, wow.
I could see if this was the next episode, but it's been 30 something years since the events from the last SW film. Of course there's going to be some explanation for these things.
What way would you prefer them to do it?
As someone who has been a fan of SW since childhood it just felt particularly grating because these things are self-evident. We can make the connections. We don't need our handheld. It's just a general approach taken with this film to appeal to the masses rather than the fans who were looking for something more in-depth and substantive from this universe.
WadiumArcadium
Member
The masses and Star Wars fans are the same thing though, as the huge amount of money TFA made shows.
By masses I'm talking about appealing to newcomers. These scenes were written in such a way as to spell everything out so new audiences were crystal clear on the connections everyone has and I found it annoying
WadiumArcadium
Member
With that line I can definitely see what you mean, but it must be quite difficult to balance getting new fans on board and satisfying the old ones. Looking back I don't think there were that many occurrences where I felt they'd over explained anything. The line you mentioned didn't irritate me at all. I guess they can't please everyone when there's such a large audience.
This. How the above lines could "grate" you in any real way is absolutely beyond me. The only one I could see someone feeling strange about is the "grandfather" line, but even that doesn't bother me.
There is nothing they overexplain in this film. In fact.. I find it hard to believe someone could actually think this given how much they do not explain. Look at all the speculation out there, it's insane.
There is so much visual storytelling going on that it's a baffling thought for me.
Look, I've been a fan for my entire life and I don't think there is a huge difference in overexplaining in comparison to the OT.
There is plenty of depth to explore in TFA, man. Come on. You're basing this off of a couple of lines from a two hour film? Very nitpicky.
WadiumArcadium
Member
I liked the grandfather line as it shows how despite Kylo's best attempts to separate himself from his them, he still refers to his idol as family.
CaviarMeths
Member
I know in my heart that Return of the Jedi belongs in the middle of the list, after ANH, ESB, and TFA, but the final act scenes with Vader, Luke, and the emperor just elevate the whole movie, the whole trilogy even. Jedi is a mid-tier Star Wars movie with the best scenes in the entire saga.
1. Empire Strikes Back
2. The Force Awakens
3. A New Hope
4. Return of the Jedi
5. The Phantom Menace
6. Revenge of the Sith
7. Attack of the Clones
The Phantom Menace isn't awful. There's some fun stuff in there and I respect all of the practical work done in it. It's far more enjoyable than the Hayden Christensen duology.
1. Empire Strikes Back
2. The Force Awakens
3. A New Hope
4. Return of the Jedi
5. The Phantom Menace
6. Revenge of the Sith
7. Attack of the Clones
The Phantom Menace isn't awful. There's some fun stuff in there and I respect all of the practical work done in it. It's far more enjoyable than the Hayden Christensen duology.
Chip N Chance
Member
Whats the word on Rebels? Should i pick up Season 1 on BluRay? I haven't read every response in this thread so sorry if its been discussed. Again, i've only seen the original trilogy and The Force Awakens.
WadiumArcadium
Member
Rebes is fun if inconsistent. The Clone Wars was a better show, but I'd definitely recommend giving them both a go.
Empire is still the best overall
Force Awakens and A New Hope are two inverse takes on the same story, one focused on just moving the plot forward while the other is more focused on finding empathy with the characters.
Jedi has a great back half but takes forever for the plot to feel like it's going anywhere.
And who gives a fuck about the order of the prequels, they're all shitty, incoherent, emotionally barren, charmless movies.
Force Awakens and A New Hope are two inverse takes on the same story, one focused on just moving the plot forward while the other is more focused on finding empathy with the characters.
Jedi has a great back half but takes forever for the plot to feel like it's going anywhere.
And who gives a fuck about the order of the prequels, they're all shitty, incoherent, emotionally barren, charmless movies.
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