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[OnPoint]

If they ban Twin then we are back to a 2 deck meta yayyyyyyyyyyyyyy

It actually could open the format up. But it might not. I would once have had the confidence that they would test for this and have a reasonable idea if it would or not, but my faith in their ability to evaluate formats has understandably been shaken. So who knows anymore

 

[y2dvd]

Funny game yesterday. I'm playing Aether Paradox vs BG Constrictor. He plays Verdurous Gearhulk and gets an 8/8 (no other creatures to target. Next turn I get enough energy to spin Aetherworks, hit a Saheeli's Artistry, and use both modes to copy Verdurous twice for two 8/8s lol.

We played about 10 matches and I went undefeated. I gotta test thing against other matches now.

 

[ironmang]

People are way too ban hungry. Between increasing tournament fees and $400 standard decks, this game is too damn expensive to ban a card just cuz. Unless a deck reaches cawblade or eldrazi levels of dominance it should be left alone. Unless WOTC wants to reimburse players for their screwups.

 

[OnPoint]

People are way too ban hungry. Between increasing tournament fees and $400 standard decks, this game is too damn expensive to ban a card just cuz. Unless a deck reaches cawblade or eldrazi levels of dominance it should be left alone. Unless WOTC wants to reimburse players for their screwups.

I think people are always going to want to discuss standard bans right after one happens because they feel much more real when they're recent. I honestly don't think they'll ban the cat and it'll be another 5-6 years before we see another standard banning. But who knows -- maybe they'll ban standard cards more regularly these days. We'll see.

 

[Tunoku]

I don't mind either way. If the combo gets banned I'll just play Tower instead this month. If it doesn't get banned, I'll go back to 4c Saheeli and try to get OK at the deck by the end of the month.

Spoiler

They should probably ban the combo.

 

[Joe Molotov]

I don't like the idea of them banning cards every few months just to shake things up. I'm not fond of the cat combo, but I'd rather they just left it alone for now.

 

[Tunoku]

I mean, if the cat combo is a tier 1 deck in this meta, it's very likely going to stay a tier 1 deck until the day the cards rotate out of Standard in October 2018. Unless they ban it, of course.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Cat's going to get banned, because they didn't see it and it effectively ruins any deck that could beat GB Counters by making Fumigate be useless. By the very nature of what GB Counters does they over extend, and so a board wipe would kill them, but tapping out on Turn 5 is useless when CopyCat can win turn 6.

Like, all standard needs right now Is a way to punish GB Vehicles that doesn't wreck the decks outright. Like, Where's Pithing Needle?

 

[HK-47]

Cat's going to get banned, because they didn't see it and it effectively ruins any deck that could beat GB Counters by making Fumigate be useless. By the very nature of what GB Counters does they over extend, and so a board wipe would kill them, but tapping out on Turn 5 is useless when CopyCat can win turn 6.

Like, all standard needs right now Is a way to punish GB Vehicles that doesn't wreck the decks outright. Like, Where's Pithing Needle?

GB got its shit pushed in recently.

 

[ironmang]

I mean, if the cat combo is a tier 1 deck in this meta, it's very likely going to stay a tier 1 deck until the day the cards rotate out of Standard in October 2018. Unless they ban it, of course.

Sounds like a good thing. Means I can buy a deck knowing it'll at least be competitive until the cards rotate. If they're not going to continue supporting modern and legacy less they can at least let us get attached to a standard deck for the short time the cards are legal.

 

[GregLombardi]

It's not even the tier of the cat deck. The reason it should be banned is what Angry Grimace said originally: every single turn a deck can have a 1 turn win. Its berating and makes magic unfun. Infinite combos fucking suck without the tools to deal with them.

 

[Giant Panda]

I feel like people should have known when they were buying into Copy Cat that it was going to get banned. If you wanted a stable standard deck it should have been obvious to avoid that deck.

 

[phazedplasma]

Considering dumping most of my cards and just keeping my modern staples/decks...

Standard has bummed me out bigly lately

 

[ironmang]

I feel like people should have known when they were buying into Copy Cat that it was going to get banned. If you wanted a stable standard deck it should have been obvious to avoid that deck.

There hasn't been many standard bannings and it's usually only when a deck is dominant. I still don't think it's going to get banned as it's very beatable and has only recently been putting up numbers despite it being the deck with the most buzz before aether revolt released.

The last banning was already bad enough. Doing it again would be pretty dumb. Buying 1 deck, having it banned, then buying another and having it banned 2 months later is the ultimate feelbad.

 

[red13th]

Yeah there's a real cost involved with banning cards. Standard is a steaming pile, I can't imagine why they only recently realised things needed to change.

 

[Infinite Stars]

There hasn't been many standard bannings and it's usually only when a deck is dominant. I still don't think it's going to get banned as it's very beatable and has only recently been putting up numbers despite it being the deck with the most buzz before aether revolt released.

The last banning was already bad enough. Doing it again would be pretty dumb. Buying 1 deck, having it banned, then buying another and having it banned 2 months later is the ultimate feelbad.

Except for the fact that the first week of the set being out we had Sam Stoddard admit they had missed the interaction.

CopyCat is getting a ban, because part of the current mediocre standard turnout can be blamed on Wizards not willing to ban cards when they really should. No one wanted 2+months of Bant CoCo mirrors, or the 2 months of Rally mirrors.

The issues are that Standard has been pushing creatures/vehicles so hard that answers can't even come close to matching up, and until answers do you've got a shitty "Who draws their bomb first" playstyle, because evidently there's little incentive to interact. CopyCat can kill over 2 turns starting on Turn 3/4 and can do it in one starting turn 6, with backup dispel Mana if you try to kill the Saheeli in response. GB Counters has you dead on Turn 5, because Winding Constrictor is dumb. Mardu Vehicles has a 4/4 Flying Vigilance 2 Drop, because Gideon effectively makes it free to crew.

What's the answers look like? Oh right, 5 Mana board wipe that do nothing against CopyCat, hurt GB, and act as a temporary setback for Mardu, Countermagic(which is "good" Saheeli but awful against GB while being alright against Mardu) or whatever Red removal you want (Quickly loses function against GB, works alright against Mardu, Saheeli just counters it)

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

The better saheeli decks don't run much countermagic.

 

[Infinite Stars]

The better saheeli decks don't run much countermagic.

Much isn't the same as none. All it takes is one dispel to ruin instant speed interaction.

 

[ironmang]

Except for the fact that the first week of the set being out we had Sam Stoddard admit they had missed the interaction.

CopyCat is getting a ban, because part of the current mediocre standard turnout can be blamed on Wizards not willing to ban cards when they really should. No one wanted 2+months of Bant CoCo mirrors, or the 2 months of Rally mirrors.

The issues are that Standard has been pushing creatures/vehicles so hard that answers can't even come close to matching up, and until answers do you've got a shitty "Who draws their bomb first" playstyle, because evidently there's little incentive to interact. CopyCat can kill over 2 turns starting on Turn 3/4 and can do it in one starting turn 6, with backup dispel Mana if you try to kill the Saheeli in response. GB Counters has you dead on Turn 5, because Winding Constrictor is dumb. Mardu Vehicles has a 4/4 Flying Vigilance 2 Drop, because Gideon effectively makes it free to crew.

What's the answers look like? Oh right, 5 Mana board wipe that do nothing against CopyCat, hurt GB, and act as a temporary setback for Mardu, Countermagic(which is "good" Saheeli but awful against GB while being alright against Mardu) or whatever Red removal you want (Quickly loses function against GB, works alright against Mardu, Saheeli just counters it)

They should eat the losses then, not the people who bought cards to play in tournaments. Or they should spoil cards way ahead of release so they can get better community feedback in case they want to preemptively ban something.

I don't see why you think banning cards increases turnout. I know soon as the last bans hit and my UW flash deck that I barely got to play became unusable I decided to not own a standard deck for the next year at least. If this is going to be how they operate I'm not going to waste money buying a deck worth entering these $80+ tournaments because the community hates good decks that they're not playing and wants them removed. Especially now with twice as many ban updates.

Like I said before, I don't think it'll get banned this time because that's a terrible trend to start. If they do I'd expect even less people to be buying into decks except maybe tier 2 nonsense for $5 FNMs.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Doesn't wizards care more about the FNM audience?

 

[SigmasonicX]

... In what world is an infinite combo that can go off on turn 4 in Standard not getting banned? Yes, there are decks that can go faster than it, but that was exactly the situation with Skullclamp, which got banned.

 

[ironmang]

... In what world is an infinite combo that can go off on turn 4 in Standard not getting banned? Yes, there are decks that can go faster than it, but that was exactly the situation with Skullclamp, which got banned.

There was an actual Splinter Twin standard deck.

 

[FreedomFrisbee]

The problem with more standard bannings is if they do, it won't just be Cat/Saheeli. They have to hit all 3 top decks or risk one just becoming the most dominant. Heart of Kiran, Gideon, and Constrictor would also be in the crosshairs.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Gideon, Constrictor, and Felidar Guardian are my 3 I'm betting on. That said, I'm fully expecting only Guardian to be hit this month, with the plan being to see how the metagame changes afterwards.

There was an actual Splinter Twin standard deck.

That shared a standard with actual good interactive spells, not the pisspoor spells that exist in Standard now.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Really only burn, planeswalker removal and countermagic sucks right now. We have a path level removal spell in fatal push right now and lava spike stapled onto a murder.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Really only burn, planeswalker removal and countermagic sucks right now. We have a path level removal spell in fatal push right now and lava spike stapled onto a murder.

Fatal Push is only as good as Path when you can trigger revolt 75% of the time. Unlicensed Disintegration is good, but it's 3 Mana to have to hold up.

If Wizards said "Hey, having to hold up one mana for creature removal against Twin is too format warping", I don't see how an average of two Mana is okay for Standard when the interaction is so much worse.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

If you just want to target the combo there's a lot more available that deals with it cost efficiently.

Fatal Push is a 1 mana play that deals with a 2 mana play. You don't need to trigger revolt for it to be great, sure it's not path if you can't trigger it reliably.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I doubt they will ban anything right now. They've successfully diverted attention away from Standard's shortcomings with Modern Masters and the upcoming Amonkhet release.

I guess I just don't think they'd want to ban more cards after a pretty hefty ban only a few weeks ago unless there was something truly cancerous to the format. Sure, Cat is warping, but lots of cards are format warping. It isn't that I don't think Cat will still eat a ban; its that I don't think they're going to ban it right now when there's very little excitement for deckbuilding in Standard.

There was an actual Splinter Twin standard deck.

There was, but Caw-blade was legal at the time. Twin was a Tier 1 deck once they banned Caw-blade.

Yeah there's a real cost involved with banning cards. Standard is a steaming pile, I can't imagine why they only recently realised things needed to change.

I understand what you're saying but bans never make the format worse because they don't just randomly ban cards.

If you were to ask me if Standard were better or worse if they made the following announcement:

* Felidar Guardian is banned.
* Aetherworks Marvel is banned.
* Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is banned
* Winding Constrictor is banned.
* Heart of Kiran is banned.

I would say yes, Standard is a way better format without those cards, but we probably can all agree that's a ludicrious ban request. (There's actually only 2 categories of bans in that pretend list - Felidar Guardian and undercosted cards that snowball out of the opponent's ability to meaningfully respond)

 

[charlequin]

Buying 1 deck, having it banned, then buying another and having it banned 2 months later is the ultimate feelbad.

Literally zero sympathy for people who bought into a deck with a target on it like this one and then got upset it got banned like it was always going to.

They should eat the losses then, not the people who bought cards to play in tournaments. Or they should spoil cards way ahead of release so they can get better community feedback in case they want to preemptively ban something.

Both of these are 100% functionally equivalent to "Magic should stop being a paid product altogether," so not really something most fans would sign off on.

I don't see why you think banning cards increases turnout.

Because the game is almost 25 years old, and over that time miserable dominant decks always produce tourney attendance drops that recover when the decks are banned out.

It isn't that I don't think Cat will still eat a ban; its that I don't think they're going to ban it right now when there's very little excitement for deckbuilding in Standard.

The reason to do it now is so it doesn't ruin pt amonkhet like it did pt aer.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Literally zero sympathy for people who bought into a deck with a target on it like this one and then got upset it got banned like it was always going to.



Both of these are 100% functionally equivalent to "Magic should stop being a paid product altogether," so not really something most fans would sign off on.



Because the game is almost 25 years old, and over that time miserable dominant decks always produce tourney attendance drops that recover when the decks are banned out.



The reason to do it now is so it doesn't ruin pt amonkhet like it did pt aer.

I was thinking more that they could ban it when Amonkhet actually comes out and reveals nothing was printed to answer that combo, but perhaps there's something to be said for banning it while people aren't really paying attention. I still think its a 100% bannable interaction, particularly given it's not an intended one. I'm just not sure of how they time it.

In any case I highly doubt that combo is going to hit a full 2 years of being a Tier 1 deck. I'm really struggling to think of a card they could print that would relegate a 2-card instant win combo to even the 2nd tier of competitive decks.

Yeah there's a real cost involved with banning cards. Standard is a steaming pile, I can't imagine why they only recently realised things needed to change.

I understand what you're saying but bans never make the format worse because they don't just randomly ban cards.

If you were to ask me if Standard were better or worse if they made the following announcement:

* Felidar Guardian is banned.
* Aetherworks Marvel is banned.
* Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is banned
* Winding Constrictor is banned.
* Heart of Kiran is banned.

I would say its better because Standard is probably a better format without those cards, but we probably can all agree that's a ludicrious ban request. (There's actually only 2 categories of bans in that pretend list - Felidar Guardian and undercosted cards that snowball out of the opponent's ability to meaningfully respond).

I wouldn't be mad if Felidar Guardian and Aetherworks Marvel both got hit. Marvel isn't doing that much right now, but its simply a degenerate card that rarely does anything fun.

 

[ironmang]

Literally zero sympathy for people who bought into a deck with a target on it like this one and then got upset it got banned like it was always going to.

Magic is in this weird place where you want to play a good deck to justify the ludicrous entry fees but not one of the top 3 decks else people who play other decks will want yours banned.

I just don't see how it was always going to be banned. Before January we got a standard banning like every 6+ years and that's when a deck was clearly dominant and not just a top 3 deck.

Both of these are 100% functionally equivalent to "Magic should stop being a paid product altogether," so not really something most fans would sign off on.

I'm not following. I don't actually expect them to reimburse players who bought cards they allowed to be released but it's worth noting they aren't the ones losing money when they ban a card. In fact it's funny how well it works out when smuggler's copter gets banned just in time for people to try and open the slightly less powerful replacement. If they're missing 2 card combos then maybe earlier spoilers should be thought about.

Because the game is almost 25 years old, and over that time miserable dominant decks always produce tourney attendance drops that recover when the decks are banned out

I have no problem with "miserable dominant decks" being banned. That's not really what's been happening lately with the exception of Eldrazi though. Low tournament attendance, if it's even happening, could easily be attributed to the absurdly increasing entry fees. Like this weekend if you play in GP NJ (standard) it costs $100 if you want a playmat.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I'm often asked if Blood Moon is in today's part of red's color pie and the answer is no. Red can destroy lands, but the color that does land transformation is blue and not red. Red might be able to do transformation if it was temporary or had a random element where you didn't control the transformation.

Of course it's in blue... not like transforming landscapes fits all colours. No blue gets it because

I ended up with Zombies in blue-black because I realized that it let me have both necromantic-style Zombies and Frankenstein-style Zombies made by science (or magic).

he has a boner for blue

 

[Simply Sarah]

Given that we're almost certainly heading into a block that will be using -1/-1 counters I don't think it makes a ton of sense to ban the snake at the moment. It also hasn't proven itself to be super oppressive or warping yet. Strong? Yes. Damaging to the format or just super unfun? Much less clear.

Granted, perhaps my opinion is meaningless since I'm not currently 100% sold on a cat ban either; I actually think the 4 colour decks that have developed are pretty neat. I have no issue with that kind of combo in Standard in a vacuum so my only question is if it's actively hurting Standard and I'm not clear on the answer to that.

Of course it's in blue... not like transforming landscapes fits all colours. No blue gets it because

he has a boner for blue

See, this is weird for me because when I hear "blue zombie" the first card I think of is Blood Moon's set mate Drowned. And this further demonstrates why they can't find any new mechanics for red: Red apparently isn't allowed to do anything interesting anymore. Blood Moon? Nope, apparently it's blue even though that feels entirely off to me.

I miss the days when red got to do all the weird things like Chaos Moon/Lord, Game of Chaos/Mana Clash, Kobolds, Raging River, Backdraft, or basically any older Goblin card.

 

[Wulfric]

Considering dumping most of my cards and just keeping my modern staples/decks...

Standard has bummed me out bigly lately

I'm also considering this. I only play standard because I have the meta cards. With the coming influx of MM2017, the local community shouldn't have a problem firing modern on a weekly basis anymore.

But maybe I've just getting tired of my snakes being Fumigated at FNM. xD

EDIT: Found a Japanese Atraxa deck at Wal-Mart while hunting down a Switch. Super neat.

 

[Maledict]

Blue being the colour of 'transformation' is such a pile of circular justification to give it abilities it shouldn't.p have. Transformation is part of every colours ability - transformation is the basic essence of what magic does! And if any colour was going to have 'change a lands basic abilities' it would either be white (the colour that sets global laws) or green (the colour that plays with land the most).

Not blue, the colour that (aside from turning lands into islands) has absolutely no right running blood moon effects. Blue isn't the colour that simplifies things, and it isn't the colour that turns complex things into basic things.

But blue gets it because blue is the colour of magic apparently.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Of course it's in blue... not like transforming landscapes fits all colours. No blue gets it because

he has a boner for blue

Honestly, if any color gets the "Non basic lands are X", it feels like a White thing to me. For me, ideally, this would be how land effects were:
White: Non Basics have X Effect( Blood Moon, they cost life to tap, enter Battlefield default tapped,etc)
Green: Doubling of Mana/Additional Mana per land
Red: Freedom(Think Spreading Seas, but the land taps for anything, cast on yourself)/Stone Rain
Black: ???(best I can think of is Mana Confluence-esque effects, where you'd be giving up Life for perfect fixing)
Blue: Single individual land morphing(Spreading Seas, Aquatect's Will, etc)

So I agree with MaRo that blood Moon isn't a Red effect, but it's definitely not Blue. It's an established effect that impacts All non basics.


Edit: I should add I do think Red has the worst color pie because they keep on giving a bunch of it's effects to Blue. I mean, the biggest issue is that it's hard to put "Free Spirited" into game mechanics beyond rummaging. I do like Polymorphesque effects as Red Primarily, because "Get rid of this right now", not caring for the consequences is very Red to me

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

See, this is weird for me because when I hear "blue zombie" the first card I think of is Blood Moon's set mate Drowned. And this further demonstrates why they can't find any new mechanics for red: Red apparently isn't allowed to do anything interesting anymore. Blood Moon? Nope, apparently it's blue even though that feels entirely off to me.

I miss the days when red got to do all the weird things like Chaos Moon/Lord, Game of Chaos/Mana Clash, Kobolds, Raging River, Backdraft, or basically any older Goblin card.

I always thought stitchers never fit blue. Just because someone calls themselves a mad scientist doesn't make one, they are craftsmen.
Had to look up Drowned, the art is fantastic for it.

Landscaping shouldn't be tied to any colour in particular. Raze a forest you have a plains or mountain, level a mountain you have a plains,... Any sort of magic can make any type of land into any other.

Not sure how to fix red. The crazy red often just made for awful cards.

 

[Joe Molotov]

Reprint Prodigal Sorcerer

 

[Maledict]

I do understand the issue they have with red somewhat - it's conceptual space is a lot smaller than other colours. There's a reason many other equivalent games boil it down to 4 opposing factions, rather than 5. I remember on one of Maro's podcasts he had a guest, and they were answering player questions. The question they took was 'which colour could you remove from magic with the least effect'. Maro's answer was green, which TBH I find remarkably odd as it seems to have a really strong conceptual basis and theme. His guests answer was red because it fundamentally doesn't have much of its own, and direct damage is too big a mechanic to have confined to just one colour - it would be better split amongst the other colours thematically.

I do find it odd that they struggle to show reds passionate, non battle side though. I mean, half the spells in blue aren't anything to do with fighting yet it manages fine?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Of course it's in blue... not like transforming landscapes fits all colours. No blue gets it because

he has a boner for blue

It feels green to me.

 

[charlequin]

Magic is in this weird place where you want to play a good deck to justify the ludicrous entry fees but not one of the top 3 decks else people who play other decks will want yours banned.

This isn't a problem generally (I mean sure you have whiners all the time, but not typically anyone that people with power listen to.) The Standard environments where bannings are a plausible response to issues are few and far between.

I just don't see how it was always going to be banned.

Because it's a two-card uninteractive instant-win that by definition wipes out huge swathes of potential decks all on its own because of how specific the answers to it need to be.

I'm not following.

Letting tournament formats stay ghost towns for months or years because the alternative would impact people's deck investments would result in catastrophic sales declines and therefore dramatically reduce the ability of the game to sustain itself. Putting out spoilers months early would reduce sales and enthusiasm across the board. Neither one is viable if your goal is for WotC to actually have a sustainable business; they need to find ways of targeting the issues with Standard way further upstream.

Low tournament attendance, if it's even happening, could easily be attributed to the absurdly increasing entry fees.

When WotC says "low tournament attendance" they 99% mean FNM and local events. GPs are a lagging indicator on this even with the ridiculous entry prices.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

They've had a chance with Kaladesh to express the artistic side of red but instead they had to be the rebels.
They could have had burn spells that show momentary art repurposed but instead we got chandra flinging fire at people off screen.

Kari Zev had some amazing flavour on the other hand.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The entire idea of Standard is that the cost of entry isn't supposed to be that high. The expensive decks revolve around the Snowball cards that are nigh-impossible to answer.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Besides, I'm pretty sure Blood Moon is black anyways.

(lol)

 

[kirblar]

Besides, I'm pretty sure Blood Moon is black anyways.

(lol)

 

[Ashodin]

^^---- I understand that reference!

* Felidar Guardian is banned.
* Aetherworks Marvel is banned.
* Gideon, Ally of Zendikar is banned
* Winding Constrictor is banned.
* Heart of Kiran is banned.

FTFY

I can only see Felidar and Heart getting the axe. Aetherworks they considered nerfed with Emrakul's banning; Gideon is about to rotate so they couldn't ¯\_(&#12484_/¯ care less about that. Winding Constrictor fuels an entire archetype, and they'll let it be. You can kill it with removal! It's not broken!

But Heart of Kiran? I expect my favorite new 2 mana vehicle drop to get the axe. Why? Because it's extremely devastating with Gideon, and without Gideon it's still hard as hell to get rid of. And it's almost ubiquituous in the decks it's played in, so it has Smuggler's Copter-like prominence.

That's my prediction.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Gideon would have been about to rotate. He rotates in more than 7 months.

 

[aidan]

Can someone explain to me why they would ban Winding Constrictor? It's good, but it doesn't seem like a busted card.

 

[Angry Grimace]

^^---- I understand that reference!




FTFY

I can only see Felidar and Heart getting the axe. Aetherworks they considered nerfed with Emrakul's banning; Gideon is about to rotate so they couldn't ¯\_(&#12484_/¯ care less about that. Winding Constrictor fuels an entire archetype, and they'll let it be. You can kill it with removal! It's not broken!

But Heart of Kiran? I expect my favorite new 2 mana vehicle drop to get the axe. Why? Because it's extremely devastating with Gideon, and without Gideon it's still hard as hell to get rid of. And it's almost ubiquituous in the decks it's played in, so it has Smuggler's Copter-like prominence.

That's my prediction.

GIdeon doesn't rotate until whatever the hell the Fall Block is.

Can someone explain to me why they would ban Winding Constrictor? It's good, but it doesn't seem like a busted card.

It's a 2 mana snowball. If you fail to answer Winding Constrictor within a turn or so you will almost assuredly lose and fatal push is the only way to efficiently answer it .

 

[Joe Molotov]

My LGS is still doing MM preorders for $200...I love cracking packs but I hate buying sealed product. The eternal dilemna...