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[Tunoku]

Btw, why the hell is Basilisk Collar so damn expensive all of a sudden. Did I miss a memo?

 

[kirblar]

They've also stopped pushing Equipment because it tends to be either "too weak" or "busted as fuck." Aaron's on the record as SFM being a "LOLNO" unban, and there's good reason for it- the issue with the card is the cost cheating.

Also, Batterskull saw moderate play in Midrange decks. The format just got weird after Eldrazi Winter and never recovered.

Btw, why the hell is Basilisk Collar so damn expensive all of a sudden. Did I miss a memo?

Walking Ballista in Modern.

 

[OnPoint]

Since Mystic was banned, here's a list of all the equipment that's seen play in Modern printed after:

Spoiler

Every 0 Mana Equipment for Cheerios
Nothing Else

I've done the math, there's 213 Equipment legal in Modern. 13 of these are above 4 CMC. This idea that a 4 Mana 1/2+Steelshaper's gift+Equipment is somehow too strong for Modern when we've just seen a GP with 1 Mana 10/10s is stupid. Mystic dies to every removal spell in the format, even Tarfire/Shock.

Batterskull still sees play occasionally.

Thopter/Sword is a deck.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Because they never played with the card when it was in Standard- it's so bad for the game to have around.

Okay, then explain to me. Why is Preordain so bad? I'm not suggesting an unban of Ponder(Fuck that), but Preordain? It's a Reverse Serum Visions, in a format where one of the biggest complaints is "I have to draw into one of my anti-Affinity cards in my opening hand+2 or I die", where being able to set up your next draws.

Batterskull still sees play occasionally.

Thopter/Sword is a deck.

I said printed after Mystic was banned. None of those were, and lol at Thopter-Sword being a deck. It's not even on the fringes of playable because of how bad Blue/White collectively are in Modern

They've also stopped pushing Equipment because it tends to be either "too weak" or "busted as fuck." Aaron's on the record as SFM being a "LOLNO" unban, and there's good reason for it- the issue with the card is the cost cheating.

Also, Batterskull saw moderate play in Midrange decks. The format just got weird after Eldrazi Winter and never recovered.

Walking Ballista in Modern.

Forsythe also said "LolNo" to Jace, yet he literally tweeted about considering it. The quote about Mystic is years old at this point.

 

[OnPoint]

I said printed after Mystic was banned. None of those were, and lol at Thopter-Sword being a deck. It's not even on the fringes of playable because of how bad Blue/White collectively are in Modern

: shrug :

They're not pushing equipment. Probably ever again if they can help it.

Also if you don't think SFM + Batterskull would be un-fun for the format, you're smoking crack.

 

[kirblar]

Okay, then explain to me. Why is Preordain so bad? I'm not suggesting an unban of Ponder(Fuck that), but Preordain? It's a Reverse Serum Visions, in a format where one of the biggest complaints is "I have to draw into one of my anti-Affinity cards in my opening hand+2 or I die", where being able to set up your next draws.


I said printed after Mystic was banned. None of those were, and lol at Thopter-Sword being a deck. It's not even on the fringes of playable because of how bad Blue/White collectively are in Modern



Forsythe also said "LolNo" to Jace, yet he literally tweeted about considering it. The quote about Mystic is years old at this point.

Because Preordain is very, very close to Ponder. It lets you go 3 cards deep into your deck. (Doesn't it see Legacy play as cantrip 9/10 in some decks?)

It's not years old, it came up about a year ago at the time of the Twin ban.

 

[inthrall]

I still have no idea how people can play Yu-Gi-Oh. The text is so small the cards are barely readable

Clear as mud

 

[Angry Grimace]

I have no idea how I keep beating people with my Tezzeret deck. I guess I just don't run into B/G HUGE DUDES as often as I imagined.

 

[Infinite Stars]

: shrug :

They're not pushing equipment. Probably ever again if they can help it.

Also if you don't think SFM + Batterskull would be un-fun for the format, you're smoking crack.

If they're not going to push equipment, then swap Batterskull for Mystic on the banlist. One is the very definition of a pushed Mythic, the other one is a Roleplayer that helps out one of the worst colors in modern.

Mystic can get killed by any removal spell, BSkull gets killed by any artifact spell. It's not like we've literally gotten a safety valve for the two in the form of K-Command, which kills both cards for less Mana.

Because Preordain is very, very close to Ponder. It lets you go 3 cards deep into your deck. (Doesn't it see Legacy play as cantrip 9/10 in some decks?)

It's not years old, it came up about a year ago at the time of the Twin ban.

Preordain lets you go up to 3 cards deep, which is one less then Ponder, but one more then Serum Visions. I'm not sure how that's somehow "almost" as strong as Ponder, because Visions really isn't cutting it when Bauble/Stirrings are in the format.

Do you have a link for that last part? Because the results I get upon googling "Aaron Forsythe Stoneforge Mystic" gets me only stuff from 2014 or earlier, with the first link being a mtgs thread from 2014, where Forsythe says he doesn't think Sword of the meek would be unbanned.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Why would you swap a card that sees scattered, reasonable amounts of play for a different card that's potentially broken?

 

[Infinite Stars]

Why would swap a card that sees scattered, reasonable amounts of play for a different card that's potentially broken?

Because Mystic isn't broken. Again, Forsythe thought Sword would break Aggro in 2014, and it hasn't done shit in the year off of the list.

There's literally a 2 part article on Modern Nexus where the author tested Mystic in Modern Abzan, and the only Matchup that had a substantial swing was Burn.

http://modernnexus.com/testing-stoneforge-mystic-part-one/


http://modernnexus.com/testing-stoneforge-mystic-part-two/

Equipment isn't creatures, where they've continually pushed them: The two best equipment are banned in modern, why not add B-Skull to the list if it means you can take off Stone forge?

 

[Karakand]

Because Preordain is very, very close to Ponder. It lets you go 3 cards deep into your deck. (Doesn't it see Legacy play as cantrip 9/10 in some decks?)

Outside ANT you really only see it in Sneak and Show. Including the former seems a bit insipid too as it's a storm deck.

It is however a mandatory 4 of in Pauper as Brainstorm is pretty bad without fetch lands.

 

[charlequin]

With grove of the burnwillows, it's a one-two punch that will suppress any fair creature decks and make people board in graveyard hate in matchups where it shouldn't be necessary otherwise. It's a good ban still.

Yes. P. Fire is a horrible horrible card to have around- it never should have been legal in the format, and REALLY should have been banned at PT Amsterdam (Extended) where the combo was legal.

Okay, fair. This pointer about PT Amsterdam makes it a little clearer to me why I wasn't sure about this -- pretty sure I wasn't following competitive formats much at that time and I missed that PT altogether, when it seems like it was the real serious showcase of that deck.

Bauble (it's stupid for the same reason probe was) and Emrakul (it's really stupid) are both in the realm of possibility.

Bauble is certainly in that same category as Probe but it really is way less good. One card on the library is far less useful info than the whole hand; waiting a turn for the card reduces some of its efficacy in a pure combo environment.

Because Preordain is very, very close to Ponder. It lets you go 3 cards deep into your deck. (Doesn't it see Legacy play as cantrip 9/10 in some decks?)

What (if anything) do you think the proper power level for a Standard-legal 1-mana blue cantrip is?

 

[kirblar]

You get rid of Bauble if those free cantrip effects are a net problem.

Peek, Serum Visions, Sleight of Hand are all fine at 1cc.

 

[bigkrev]

What (if anything) do you think the proper power level for a Standard-legal 1-mana blue cantrip is?

Opt, Peek, Sleight of hand, and maybe even Serum Visions are all fine

I think that being able to select from more than 2 cards at 1 mana is too strong

 

[charlequin]

You get rid of Bauble if those free cantrip effects are a net problem.

Yes, it's definitely on the potential list, I just wanted to note that there's a very logical reason that Probe is banned and it currently isn't.

 

[OnPoint]

Why would you swap a card that sees scattered, reasonable amounts of play for a different card that's potentially broken?

Right. I'm with you on this. Batterskull is a good-to-great but not broken card on its own. SFM is a tutor + a 1/2 body + a cheat into play card that 100% restricts their ability to change their mind on ever pushing equipment again that only costs two mana.

Bye-bye SFM.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Right. I'm with you on this. Batterskull is a good-to-great but not broken card on its own. SFM is a tutor + a 1/2 body + a cheat into play card that 100% restricts their ability to change their mind on ever pushing equipment again that only costs two mana.

Bye-bye SFM.

I don't get this line of arguing. First Off, Mystic costs 2 and tutors, but the ability also costs 2. It's not this 2 mana "You win the game" card, with the exception of B-Skull you still have to pay the equip cost to make it not just sit there.

Secondly, I don't see Wizards toning down their legendary creatures because Goryo's Vengeance is a card that exists in Modern and they have to mind it. We didn't see Wizards take a look at the Eldrazi and go "Yeah, we shouldn't make them have 8 Sol Lands" when designing OGW. I doubt they'd care about Mystic when having to design for Standard.

66% of the broken Equipment that's been printed was in the first 2 years of it existing. No other card type can say that. No one looks at creatures and thinks the best were in the first two blocks, no one looks at Land that way, or Enchantments, or Instants/Sorceries and can say that 66% of the best cards in that type were when it was being first showcased.

Batterskull has to be the ceiling for what Equipment can be now, considering the previous two mistakes. Batterskull, despite being a stupid card, barely sees play in Modern. Why? Because Turn 5 Batterskull isn't good enough when your opponent is casting turn 1 10/10 Death's Shadow, or Turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer, or Turn 2 threatening to swing for 10 infect. This idea that somehow a Turn 2 Stoneforge Mystic, followed by a Turn 3 Batterskull is unfair in a format where Turn 3 Tron can play Karn, Jund plays Lilianna, Eldrazi plays Reality Smasher, Knightfall Combos out, etc is absurdist.

I mean, Wizards unbanned Grave-Troll, despite them knowing what was in the line wrt Cathartic Reunion, Prized Amalgam, etc. They failed to print any safety valves to Marvel, Emrakul, etc. Worst case scenario: They unban Mystic, it destroys the format for a few months, they have to reban it. Best case: They get it off the list, it's good but doesn't destroy the format, and White finally stops being the "Sideboard" color.

 

[Ashodin]

MORE EQUIPMENT

 

[kirblar]

The ability should cost XW. Not 1W. That's the problem with the card.

Cost reduction is bad bad bad - not only does it bring back T3 Bskull, it limits future design space.

 

[Supast4r]

I think we've actually run out of cards on the Modern Ban List that have much of an argument to get unbanned.

I think we're at the point where Jace, the Mind Sculptor is the most reasonable target left on the list, and blue isn't in a bad enough place I suspect they'd consider it simply because Jace's "0" isn't calculated to do a lot but cause shenanigans (although I suspect Jace being a 4 drop in a world where that's quite pricey would make it less likely that he could do as much damage as he did in Standard).

Preordain and ban something from Goyro's vengence and we are good imho.

 

[Supast4r]

The ability should cost XW. Not 1W. That's the problem with the card.

Cost reduction is bad bad bad - not only does it bring back T3 Bskull, it limits future design space.

This is such a bullshit argument for me. Wizards has GONE ON RECORD to say that they don't look at past cards for "limited design space." If this was the case then the devoid mechanic makes no sense since it does nothing in standard currently. So let me ask you. Did Eldrazi temple/eye of ugin limit thought knot/reality smasher's design space? Also the expertise cards haven't broken anything which proves that cost reduction can work.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I'm with you infinite. I don't get the hate gaf has for SFM in modern, even stony silence makes you only have to deal with the germ token from batterskull.

 

[kirblar]

If you unban SFM, you will inevitably have to ban it again. THAT is the problem. That is why it constrain them going forward if people are attached to the card and start designing around it.

Eye/Temple were ignored because they wanted to do cheap Eldrazi, and to do that you had to risk some going off the rails when combo'd with the older stuff.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Even if that were the case, GGT getting off and on the list is little more than a funny anecdote. It was a fine card to have unbanned up until Kaladesh, Cathartic Reunion changed that and it was banned again.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I liked Patrick Chapin's description of SFM that it's Black Lotus plus Demonic Tutor that leaves a body behind.

 

[HK-47]

If you unban SFM, you will inevitably have to ban it again. THAT is the problem. That is why it constrain them going forward if people are attached to the card and start designing around it.

Eye/Temple were ignored because they wanted to do cheap Eldrazi, and to do that you had to risk some going off the rails when combo'd with the older stuff.

Maybe. I'm not sure at this point that WotC will even print a half way decent equipment again. Even at the mythic slot they dont do it. Plus they will probably be focusing on fucking up with vehicles until they go the same path equips followed.

 

[HK-47]

Even if that were the case, GGT getting off and on the list is little more than a funny anecdote. It was a fine card to have unbanned up until Kaladesh, Cathartic Reunion changed that and it was banned again.

It was a good before that. Amalgam and Neonate had already made the deck very competitive.

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

It was a good before that. Amalgam and Neonate had already made the deck very competitive.

GGT was unbanned for the chance of dredge getting good but not too good, Amalgam and Neonate fulfilled that w/o getting busted.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";230845166]I liked Patrick Chapin's description of SFM that it's Black Lotus plus Demonic Tutor that leaves a body behind.[/QUOTE]
If you could interact with Black Lotus and it were summoning sick it'd be a much less powerful card.

 

[Yeef]

If you could interact with Black Lotus and it were summoning sick it'd be a much less powerful card.

But still too strong for Modern.

 

[Infinite Stars]

It's hard for the "Mystic hurts design space" when A) Wizards has openly admitted they don't test for Modern B) D&D have shown that they can completely miss the mark on the strength of cards in a format (Copter, Fetch+Tangos, Thopter-Sword Strength in Modern) C) The 600+games that have been tested from the Modern Nexus article I posted earlier show a negligible difference except against Burn, and considering the notes made the Burn player had no idea what to do D) The format has a literal 3 Mana answer(Kolaghan's Command) to Mystic+BSkull that's played in two of the "gauntlet" decks, for lack of a better term (Grixis Control or Delver and Jund) E) only 13 equipment in Modern is 4CMC or higher, meaning that the most you're cheating on is generally 1-2, something that can be interrupted by literally any interaction with the Mystic AND F)Even without Mystic, the "best" we've had in Modern since SoM is probably Godsend/Elbrus. Sure, there's "better" equipment (the swords), but there's clearly no lost design space when they've put two cards with unique effects at Mythic and both have been recieved with mediocre response.

Maybe. I'm not sure at this point that WotC will even print a half way decent equipment again. Even at the mythic slot they dont do it. Plus they will probably be focusing on fucking up with vehicles until they go the same path equips followed.

Well, I mean, they're 2 for 2 in having a fucked up vehicle design in the two sets they've been in.

Whoever greenlit Heart of Kiran's alternate crew cost in the same format with Gideon deserves to be mocked endlessly, because it's so stupid.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Bring on the Jace/SFM unban utopia, baby.

Creatures(8):

• 4x Stoneforge Mystic
• 4x Snapcaster Mage

Artifacts(5):

• 3x Thopter Foundry
• 1x Sword of the Meek
• 1x Batterskull

Spells(16):

• 4x Serum Visions
• 4x Inquisition of Kozilek
• 2x Thoughtseize
• 4x Path to Exile
• 2x Fatal Push
• 1x Collective Brutality
• 1x Anguished Unmaking

Planeswalkers(7):

• 3x Liliana of the Veil
• 4x Jace, The Mind Sculptor

24 Lands


Sideboard:

• 1x Supreme Verdict
• 1x Painful Truths
• 1x Engineered Explosives
• 1x Grafdigger's Cage
• 1x Pithing Needle
• 1x Rest In Peace
• 1x Vendillion Clique
• 1x Ceremonious Rejection
• 1x Duress
• 2x Stony Silence
• 2x Timely Reinforcements
• 2x Dispel

 

[SigmasonicX]

There has to be a card like this in Amonkhet.

Mummify - 4B
Sorcery
Put target creature card from a graveyard onto the battlefield under your control. That creature is a black Zombie in addition to its other colors and types. Then you may search your library for a Curse card, reveal it, put it into your hand, then shuffle your library.

 

[ironmang]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";230846462]Bring on the Jace/SFM unban utopia, baby.

Creatures(8):

• 4x Stoneforge Mystic
• 4x Snapcaster Mage

Artifacts(5):

• 3x Thopter Foundry
• 1x Sword of the Meek
• 1x Batterskull

Spells(16):

• 4x Serum Visions
• 4x Inquisition of Kozilek
• 2x Thoughtseize
• 4x Path to Exile
• 2x Fatal Push
• 1x Collective Brutality
• 1x Anguished Unmaking

Planeswalkers(7):

• 3x Liliana of the Veil
• 4x Jace, The Mind Sculptor

24 Lands


Sideboard:

• 1x Supreme Verdict
• 1x Painful Truths
• 1x Engineered Explosives
• 1x Grafdigger's Cage
• 1x Pithing Needle
• 1x Rest In Peace
• 1x Vendillion Clique
• 1x Ceremonious Rejection
• 1x Duress
• 2x Stony Silence
• 2x Timely Reinforcements
• 2x Dispel

[/QUOTE]

No lingering souls?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Gideon looks fugly and Nissa super out of place. Are we getting another Nissa already after Kaladesh?

 

[Violet_0]

I didn't consider it before but there is indeed a very good chance that curses make a comeback. It's weird that we didn't see any in the last Innistrad block, iirc

I don't like the Nissa art and Gideon lost his glorious sideburns, bleh

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

It looks a lot like his original art just browner.

Gideon used to be pale as porcelain.

 

[red13th]

supposedly from a playmat. looks like Goblin Guide is in MM17?
I guess I'm replacing my Snappy and my Goblin Guide, I like the new arts better.

 

[Yeef]

I didn't consider it before but there is indeed a very good chance that curses make a comeback. It's weird that we didn't see any in the last Innistrad block, iirc

There was one curse in Shadows Over Innistrad

 

[Tunoku]

Accursed Witch was one of my favorite cards from SoI limited. So sweet.

That Goblin Guide looks meh, I prefer the other two artworks. This new Goblin Guide actually comes off as kind of competent.

 

[OnPoint]

It looks a lot like his original art just browner.

Gideon used to be pale as porcelain.

Yeah, they retconned him into being more Mediterranean at some point. I'm all for adding diversity, I just don't get why they can't simply make new characters for it.

 

[aidan]

Yeah, they retconned him into being more Mediterranean at some point. I'm all for adding diversity, I just don't get why they can't simply make new characters for it.

They do, they just don't draw attention to it. Alesha, Arlinn, Saheeli, Kynaios and Tiro all represent the game's broadening representation. However, they're also so convinced that the Gatewatch is the face of the game that they don't give other characters enough spotlight and exposure.

 

[OnPoint]

They do, they just don't draw attention to it. Alesha, Arlinn, Saheeli, Kynaios and Tiro all represent the game's broadening representation. However, they're also so convinced that the Gatewatch is the face of the game that they don't give other characters enough spotlight and exposure.

Right but then why retcon him at all? Put some focus on a new character

 

[Santiako]

Yeah, they retconned him into being more Mediterranean at some point. I'm all for adding diversity, I just don't get why they can't simply make new characters for it.

Seems relevant:

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

Yeah, they retconned him into being more Mediterranean at some point. I'm all for adding diversity, I just don't get why they can't simply make new characters for it.

They needed gideon for the shipping with Chandra.

They do, they just don't draw attention to it. Alesha, Arlinn, Saheeli, Kynaios and Tiro all represent the game's broadening representation. However, they're also so convinced that the Gatewatch is the face of the game that they don't give other characters enough spotlight and exposure.

That's the worst about the Gatewatch. They add all these characters, that could be interesting if they were given ample screen time, then make a white af Gatewatch and even deage most of them.

 

[Infinite Stars]

Right but then why retcon him at all? Put some focus on a new character

Because WotC loves Mean Girls:

"Gideon, why are you White?"

"Oh my gosh Nissa, you just can't ask someone why they're White!"

"Well, I mean, you're from Theros and a soldier/street urchin, so why are you White?"

"Same reason why I'm white, Nissa: Story didn't realize my home plane until Origins."

 

[OnPoint]

Because WotC loves Mean Girls:

"Gideon, why are you White?"

"Oh my gosh Nissa, you just can't ask someone why they're White!"

"Well, I mean, you're from Theros and a soldier/street urchin, so why are you White?"

"Same reason why I'm white, Nissa: Story didn't realize my home plane until Origins."

Same thing with Chandra really. She should be Kaladeshi, and instead she's white as hell.

 

[Jhriad]

supposedly from a playmat. looks like Goblin Guide is in MM17?
I guess I'm replacing my Snappy and my Goblin Guide, I like the new arts better.

Ehhhhh. As bad as the two current Snapcaster pieces are I don't really care much for the MM17 box art either. It's not bad but it's not altogether very interesting either. The two previous versions of Guide were more appealing to me than this new piece but with a reprint maybe those will go low enough that I can pick some older copies up cheap.

Can we just get the spoilers already?

 

[Familienoberhauptvogel]

I love Brazilian soccer player Snappy.

 

[shrapnelmagnet]

Not sure what will be discussed but three WotC employees are on a DICE presentation later.

http://live.interactive.org/

11:45 AM - 12:30 PM (Pacific Standard Time)
Windows into Worlds
Jeremy Jarvis
Principal Designer, Worlds and IP
Wizards of the Coast

Doug Beyer
Sr. Game Designer
Wizards of the Coast

Moderator
Min Kim
Co-Founder
Bonfire Studios

EDIT:

And later

2:15 PM - 3:00 PM (Pacific Standard Time)
Turning the Tables
Mike Mearls
Design Director
Wizards of the Coast

Nicole Lindroos
General Manager
Green Ronin

Josh Mosqueira
Designer and Co-Founder
Bonfire Studios

Moderator
Randy Pitchford
President and CEO
Gearbox Software