keeblerdrow
Member
Hand destruction. Thoughtseize and stain the mind. Take their win con and their card draw. Then side in expensive burn cause your game will go forever.
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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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Yup, if you name Stain the Mind on Ancient they're probably dead.
Call ALL the judges.Not if they're 1-0 up.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
But Ancient isn't actually that hard to kill in this deck. You just throw a kill-spell at it and then Thoughtseize. I realize that sounds combo-y, but the entirety of the deck is kill spells. Its not necessarily feasible to flash Ancient back out.
I was speaking more generally- I'm actually ok running a lot of Stains in the SB right now to try and blow out U/B and Ascendancy.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Stain the Mind is kinda slow against ascendancy, I just use revoker to turn off sylvan caryatid and try to pick apart the board.
Also, Mardu Charm has got to be one of the best spells against UB control. Making a control player tap mana on their turn is a surefire way to win games.
Also, Mardu Charm has got to be one of the best spells against UB control. Making a control player tap mana on their turn is a surefire way to win games.
The main deck I use is Mardu Control and I basically couldnt beat UB in the few times I've played.
Probably mainly due to the fact that My sideboard was terrible for it. Dig is just too good against Mardu with no threat of counterspell or anything.
Also Aetherspouts wrecks Empty the Pits. He killed all 10 of my zombies at once.
I definitely need to add stains to my SB. Other than that I don't know.
Probably mainly due to the fact that My sideboard was terrible for it. Dig is just too good against Mardu with no threat of counterspell or anything.
Also Aetherspouts wrecks Empty the Pits. He killed all 10 of my zombies at once
.I definitely need to add stains to my SB. Other than that I don't know.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
In the build we're talking about, I can't imagine a deck wanting to play Vault unless it liked mostly dead cards. It has 3 creatures and 5 other non-land permanents, none of which typically exist on the battlefield at the same time. A 9-mana one-for-one is kind of bad.
I think the real way to win is to side in Rabblemasters, Kitty Kings and Lightning Strikes to get their health down and bait removal before you bring in any kind of big-guns likes Sarkhan to finish them off. The big problem is that a low permanent count means they just hold Downfall for Sarkhan or Elspeth.The main deck I use is Mardu Control and I basically couldnt beat UB in the few times I've played.
Probably mainly due to the fact that My sideboard was terrible for it. Dig is just too good against Mardu with no threat of counterspell or anything.
Also Aetherspouts wrecks Empty the Pits. He killed all 10 of my zombies at once
I definitely need to add stains to my SB. Other than that I don't know.
Vault comes up preboarding. The way I see vault is used is it's more of an insurance for whatever resolved threat. A resolved Elspeth can just be taken care of with one card whereas hero's downfall wouldn't. After boarding, control has negate and extra disdainful strokes to take care of her, making the matchup even more miserable.
I think a transformative sideboard is the way to go. Go, go, rabble!
I think a transformative sideboard is the way to go. Go, go, rabble!
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
One of the good things is that the Mardu Control sideboard is rarely relevant in most midrange-y matchups and siding in cheaper burn isn't a bad thing against Aggro (which I find is easy enough to brick out pretty quickly with Circle of Flame).
Supply crunch for this set is real. Most impactful set in a long time for Legacy/Modern, lots of people who jumped out of Theros block standard jumping back in.
So what's your advice?
Star City Games. You will never find a more wretched hive of scum and villainy
Khans will be the most opened set of all time. Give it 3 weeks, cards like fetches and everything else that didn't jump up this week has already started to decline like crazy.
EDIT: I sold 3 Sarkhan yesterday at $33 on ebay, you can now pick some up at $30.
I'm not from the US and virtually all shops and players here follow SCG pricing religiously. It's really annoying.
Wait till december on whatever cards you can.
Would it be worth while for me to dump my Sarkhans and just pick them up again around the holidays?
Personally that's what I'm doing. Probably pick them back up at $20 in a few months.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Yo. I thought Theros was going to be my "Well, I used to play...then Homelands came out" set. But this set is so, so good. Modern and Legacy playables, a varied set of standard playables and a sweet limited environment.
Pretty sad that people have stopped passing dual lands in draft now though. No more five color janks drafts for me.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Update:
The Birds and the Bees
Creatures(20):
Spells(12):
Enchantments(4):
Land(24):
Sidebar(15):
The Pro Tour really convinced me that Abzan Charm makes matches super interesting and complicated. I knew it was the best charm in power level, but I wasn't sold until then.
Seems like it's getting there:
The Birds and the Bees
Creatures(20):
- 4x Satyr Wayfinder
- 4x Sylvan Caryatid
- 2x Nyx Weaver
- 4x Siege Rhino
- 3x Wingmate Roc
- 3x Hornet Queen
Spells(12):
- 4x Thoughtseize
- 2x Commune With the Gods
- 3x Murderous Cut
- 3x Abzan Charm
Enchantments(4):
- 2x Banishing Light
- 2x Whip of Erebos
Land(24):
- 1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
- 1x Mana Confluence
- 4x Sandsteppe Citadel
- 3x Windswept Heath
- 4x Llanowar Wastes
- 2x Caves of Koilos
- 3x Temple of Malady
- 1x Temple of Silence
- 3x Forest
- 2x Plains
Sidebar(15):
- 2x Reclamation Sage
- 3x Drown in Sorrow
- 2x Bile Blight
- 1x Doomwake Giant
- 2x End Hostilities
- 1x Duneblast
- 1x Phyrexian Revoker
- 1x Resolute Archangel
- 2x Nissa, Worldwaker
The Pro Tour really convinced me that Abzan Charm makes matches super interesting and complicated. I knew it was the best charm in power level, but I wasn't sold until then.
Seems like it's getting there:
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I am a super fan of Jeskai Charm. There is no greater tempo play in Magic than putting a creature on top of a library at instant speed.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Whip takes up his slot for now.
Nissa is only $50 because nobody really opened that set.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Siege Rhino is already their best card against you, you don't want to give them extra triggers.
Yup. Core set staples usually are stupid high due to lack of box opening. Rabblemaster is a pretty good example of this, even though he was the buy a box promo.
shrapnelmagnet
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";134414423]Siege Rhino is already their best card against you, you don't want to give them extra triggers.[/QUOTE]
Understood but just one Aetherspouts could clear the way for a lethal swing at that point in the game.
That trigger is also why I am always hesitant to bounce Siege Rhino with Jeskai Charm.
Understood but just one Aetherspouts could clear the way for a lethal swing at that point in the game.
That trigger is also why I am always hesitant to bounce Siege Rhino with Jeskai Charm.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
When in Jeskai, the best defense against Siege Rhino is Stormbreath. I really don't get any list in those colors that are ignoring SBD. Protection against white is super strong right now, as a ton of good removal is in white and almost every great creature is white. Five mana was a sticking point before Khans a bit, but we're comfortable getting there in this standard environment.
I run Stormbreath in my main. 2 in fact. But it doesn't even kill Siege Rhino. And comes down up to two turns slower than Siege Rhino.
Plus decks that run Siege Rhino typically run more black removal than white removal.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I mean, we can play this game all day, right? Bouncing, either with Charm or Spout, is just not a real option because you can't afford to take a 12 point life swing. You can hope you have the appropriate counterspell, but we know the dangers of sitting back on counterspell mana unless you're way ahead on mana.
So, what fits in the Jeskai shell that you're going to run any way that protects your butt from the Rhino. My answer is SBD. Banishing light can work too, but it's not a proactive card like SBD, though it does come down substantially earlier.
Yes, SBD dies to doom blade, so to speak, but then you can use that for any potential solution. Light dies to erase or Sage, etc.
SBD also works at keeping you from taking late game hits in the mirror from Rider.
Anyway, that's my solution until a better one is found. Obviously, it's not a Hero's Downfall that has Stifle stapled to it in Jeskai colors, which would be perfect, but I feel it does the job.
It's not a X dies to Doom Blade argument I am making here. The fact of the matter is, Abzan decks are heavy in the meta now and these decks run cards liks Hero's Downfall, Murderous Cut and Silence the Believers more than or just as much as they do Banishing Light, Utter End and Suspension Field.
Stormbreath is great but a lot of times it's not enough because Rhino lands and can afford to swing the next turn against Stormbreath (assuming you even held it back from attacking) without dying. This then triggers raid on Roc and far too often facing down a board of a Rhino and two birds is backbreaking for Jeskai tempo.
Stormbreath is great but a lot of times it's not enough because Rhino lands and can afford to swing the next turn against Stormbreath (assuming you even held it back from attacking) without dying. This then triggers raid on Roc and far too often facing down a board of a Rhino and two birds is backbreaking for Jeskai tempo.
I've actually seen pretty good results from running Clever Impersonator against Abzan midrange so I am pretty surprised to see that it never gets brought up around here and other forums when talking about Jeskai dealing with Abzan. The only problem is that playing it as a 2-of sideboard card makes it a bit too inconsistent.
I think the best solution is to just race them with fliers, particularly fliers that don't make you lose out on tempo to Hero's Downfall like Stormbreath. Siege Rhino only hits for 7 the turn after it comes into play. Hushwing Gryff stops the trigger at instant speed and Ashcloud Phoenix can race them as fast as Stormbreath, but does not technically die to Hero's Downfall (although it does die to Abzan Charm). You have burn spells to finish the game. They don't barring multiple Siege Rhinos.
At least Sarkhan can kill a creature before he dies. Stormbreath sometimes just does nothing when they have mana open.
At least Sarkhan can kill a creature before he dies. Stormbreath sometimes just does nothing when they have mana open.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I'm a firm believer in playing the card that will win you the game, not the one that prevents you from losing, if that makes any sense. I don't think there is a right or wrong answer, but when you're talking about Gryff, that card realistically only prevents the burn trigger. It still dies the to the same removal as SBD, it dies to Rhino itself as a blocker and doesn't really clock your opponent at all. It has its uses, but I disagree about it being good tech against Rhino.
Any solution has a card that beats it. SBD has Downfall and the fringe playable Murderous Cut. The things it beats are all cards that right now are seeing a ton of play. It's worth noting that Sarkhan dies to the same removal that we're using as a negative for SBD, and it can also be hit by white's removal suite. Silence the Believers hits it, but I'm not seeing it in a single of the top 8 decks. It may become tech though.
Now, Stoke the Flames would be a better counter argument that Silence, because that does see play.
Any solution has a card that beats it. SBD has Downfall and the fringe playable Murderous Cut. The things it beats are all cards that right now are seeing a ton of play. It's worth noting that Sarkhan dies to the same removal that we're using as a negative for SBD, and it can also be hit by white's removal suite. Silence the Believers hits it, but I'm not seeing it in a single of the top 8 decks. It may become tech though.
Now, Stoke the Flames would be a better counter argument that Silence, because that does see play.
My point is those cards present value and add to the clock. Hushwing Gryff preventing Siege Rhino, Wingmate Roc and Hornet Queen from triggering gives value. Sarkhan being able to kill a creature before getting nuked gives value. On top of that, Gryff costs three mana, so at worst you trade three mana for three mana. With Stormbreath you lose out on mana and therefore tempo. When you can curve out, without a proper answer from your opponent, then obviously it doesn't really matter whether you're running Stormbreath or Sarkhan. When you start to stumble, then getting every bits of value you can get can mean the difference between winning and losing, especially for a burn deck.
Using Stormbreath as a potential blocker for Siege Rhino seems like a losing proposition.
Using Stormbreath as a potential blocker for Siege Rhino seems like a losing proposition.
I'm thinking about getting back into Magic but I'm not sure where to start. I haven't bought cards and played since somewhere around 5th Edition. Are there any current premade decks that offer a good value for starting players? How would you guys go about getting back into Magic if you weren't able to do sealed tourneys and you would mostly just be playing casually with friends?
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Sigh. I wish you lived in Germany. I used to give out boxes of cards, now I have two 5k boxes of totally playable cards that I can't find a home for.
But, you can pick up the duel decks for around 20 bucks at any card/comic shop. They're premade decks designed to be played against each other and they're great for coming back to the game and playing with friends. No worries about power levels, deck construction, arguments over which Dragon is better than which stupid ass bird thingy...just Magic.
SigmasonicX
Member
If you want to build up your collection, it's a good idea to get a Deck Builder's Toolkit, which comes with a ton of lands, a collection of useful cards, and some booster packs. For pre-made sets, Duel Decks are good but won't be tournament legal in most cases. There are also intro packs for each set, and this set has an event deck, which is a bit more tournament playable.
Anyway, are you familiar with the rule changes since 5th Edition? There were two major ones, first during 6th Edition, and second during Magic Core 2010. If you stopped during 5th Edition, you probably aren't even familiar with the stack, right?
"God's Beard!"
Member
As an Abzan reanimator player, Hushwing Gryff is the card that scares me the most.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";134442290]As an Abzan reanimator player, Hushwing Gryff is the card that scares me the most.[/QUOTE]
Why? Nobody even plays it. I'd be way more worried about Utter End or Anger of the Gods.
Why? Nobody even plays it. I'd be way more worried about Utter End or Anger of the Gods.
keeblerdrow
Member
Anafenza is the worst thing an abzan deck can do to a reanimator deck. It just filters out all of your targets and leaves you with your fetches and removal in the yard.
I built a monoblack delve deck last night. It's fun and scary because of all the self harm it engages in. Perfectly in the color pie.
I also build a monowhite nykthos deck that splashes blue for evasion enchantments, ephara, and medomai the ageless. It ramps fairly well with vanguard of brimaz and has good top end with elspeth, dictate of heliod, and soul of theros. Ephara also provides some midgame gas with her ability.
Next brew target: prophetic flamespeaker. Naya shell, jeskai shell, or Mardu shell?
I built a monoblack delve deck last night. It's fun and scary because of all the self harm it engages in. Perfectly in the color pie.
I also build a monowhite nykthos deck that splashes blue for evasion enchantments, ephara, and medomai the ageless. It ramps fairly well with vanguard of brimaz and has good top end with elspeth, dictate of heliod, and soul of theros. Ephara also provides some midgame gas with her ability.
Next brew target: prophetic flamespeaker. Naya shell, jeskai shell, or Mardu shell?
I'll quote Martin Juza's tournament report
If you are expecting Abzan to be a big player, the advantages Gryff gives you are probably better overall than Rabblemaster, who, while he can win games on his own, is really bad in some matchups.
Gryff having Flash also lets you play a more controlling roll- it gives you another spell to play at instant speed, allowing you to leave mana up and still commit to the board if nothing requires answering on your opponents turn.
Just finished WNM, went 2-1 with Jeskai Tempo, losing to mono Green because of a huge mistake that cost me game 1 and lost game 2 due to a poor draw which I kept. I beat Abzan Midrange and the mirror.
Incidentally, and very relevant to the discussion here, I had decided to jam 4 Hushwing Gryff and 2 Disdainful Stroke into my main deck before the event. I took out 3 Seeker of the Way, 2 Banishing Light, 1 Chandra (leaving just 1 Chandra in the deck). I beat Abzan 2-0 in the matchup and also another time in a casual match. Played another casual game against another Abzan Midrange (piloted by a very skilful player) and won that 2-0 too.
The Hushwing Gryffs did a tremendous job. Not only were they good at stopping Abzan's ETB effects, they also provided very relevant beatdown. The key here is that it just adds another must-answer threat into the deck. Many other decks have few ways to take down fliers and in matchups where Seeker gets rendered irrelevant very quickly, Hushwing would continue to put a clock on opponents, especially so in the Abzan matchup. And the card has flash which means you can hold up mana for all of your instants, including Disdainful Stroke. It's surprisingly effective and based on my limited testing thus far, swings the Abzan matchup in favour of Jeskai.
Another point is that Stormbreath is definitely the stronger card in the Abzan matchup than Sarkhan. Sarkhan is food for Siege Rhino but Stormbreath provides a strong blocking body and the monstrous option is just gravy on top.
Finally, in my experience since day one, Chandra has always been very strong in the deck. So much so that I am probably going to try jamming another copy into the deck. Perhaps, I will remove the 1 Banishing Light I still have in there. Or maybe 1 of the Titan Strength.
Incidentally, and very relevant to the discussion here, I had decided to jam 4 Hushwing Gryff and 2 Disdainful Stroke into my main deck before the event. I took out 3 Seeker of the Way, 2 Banishing Light, 1 Chandra (leaving just 1 Chandra in the deck). I beat Abzan 2-0 in the matchup and also another time in a casual match. Played another casual game against another Abzan Midrange (piloted by a very skilful player) and won that 2-0 too.
The Hushwing Gryffs did a tremendous job. Not only were they good at stopping Abzan's ETB effects, they also provided very relevant beatdown. The key here is that it just adds another must-answer threat into the deck. Many other decks have few ways to take down fliers and in matchups where Seeker gets rendered irrelevant very quickly, Hushwing would continue to put a clock on opponents, especially so in the Abzan matchup. And the card has flash which means you can hold up mana for all of your instants, including Disdainful Stroke. It's surprisingly effective and based on my limited testing thus far, swings the Abzan matchup in favour of Jeskai.
Another point is that Stormbreath is definitely the stronger card in the Abzan matchup than Sarkhan. Sarkhan is food for Siege Rhino but Stormbreath provides a strong blocking body and the monstrous option is just gravy on top.
Finally, in my experience since day one, Chandra has always been very strong in the deck. So much so that I am probably going to try jamming another copy into the deck. Perhaps, I will remove the 1 Banishing Light I still have in there. Or maybe 1 of the Titan Strength.
"God's Beard!"
Member
...titan's strength?
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