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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege

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bigkrev

Member
WanderingWind said:
I just don't get how it's bad for the game to show that this shit isn't tolerated. Because right now, WotC is very much saying that it is. Blatant, intentional cheating of this nature, where there is verifiable proof should absolutely be met with a lifetime ban. It doesn't stop him from playing the game, but it prevents the possibility of him every profiting off the game again. Playing in sanctioned events is very much a privilege.
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People aren't happy because Alex Bertoncini tried to cheat Paul Cheon at the Pro Tour, and Toby Elliot publicly said they aren't going to investigate/ban him unless it's something big.
 
W

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
bigkrev said:
People aren't happy because Alex Bertoncini tried to cheat Paul Cheon at the Pro Tour, and Toby Elliot publicly said they aren't going to investigate/ban him unless it's something big.
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Yup. Basically giving a free pass to every cheater in the game. When a known cheater does it in front of the big names on the big stage and is given a pass, every dime store card counter is hearing "It's open season on MtG."

Granted, the Mobile, Alabama LCS isn't giving out 10Gs as a prize, but it's emboldening those who prey on unsuspecting. And when people begin to lose faith in the veracity of the game, they'll simply stop playing.

Conversely, if they just banned these two for life, the message is clear. Play clean, or don't play at all. Only cheats would be pushed away from the game, and that's simply good for everybody.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
bigkrev said:
People aren't happy because Alex Bertoncini tried to cheat Paul Cheon at the Pro Tour, and Toby Elliot publicly said they aren't going to investigate/ban him unless it's something big.
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Hey now, let's be clear. Bertoncini tried to cheese Cheon on a trigger. That's not going to get you a ban - the threshold has to be higher than that. Sure, I don't think Bertoncini should have been let back into Magic, but once they gave the punishment and let him back in, they can't just re-ban him for that kind of thing. And yes, we're hearing loads of anecdotes on Reddit ("I played Berton-cheaty and he totally put Cheatyface into play at the Legacy Open"), but unless someone can actually catch him doing something and get a judge over to properly investigate, the DCI isn't just going to ban him because people don't like him and claim he's cheating.

It's inevitable though. He's a cocky, narcissistic SOB who is eventually going to get caught again and get lifetimed. It's just a question of how long.
 
A

Arksy

Member
Speaking of lighter things, such as my fail journey to get good at MTG;

Tonight's FNM draft had me picking Temur, I have no idea why I like this combination so much, but I really enjoy the control that blue offers. This is my first ever set/block thing so I'm looking forward to a time when I can make a deck entirely out of tricks and counters.

I went one 2:0 win, and two 1:1 draws...both the draws started with me winning the first game and losing the second game after an incredibly long and slow drain while I hoped to get something good out of my deck. The valuable lesson here is probably just to force the loss, because I think I might have at least won one of those third games...which would've put me at two wins and a loss....

This was the local shops push to get advanced + status so we all got a booster at the end even though I came like 25th out of 62 total. I managed to get a sac land in that booster, which was awesome.

All in all, a great night.
 
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y2dvd

Member
Damn we barely reach an 8 man pod and yall got 62 people? Nice! Draws are the reasons why I try to play faster and think ahead on the spot.
 
M

MjFrancis

Member
Sixty-two people is a huge draft pool. My local shop has gotten as much as 32 but typically gets around 12-20. It's one of the bigger draft-friendly shops in the area from what I've been told, too. I've seen other, bigger shops struggle to get eight people for a draft despite getting dozens for an FNM that same day.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
Hero said:
There should be a zero tolerance policy on cheating.
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So generally there is a measure of doubt with an individual cheating incident. If you fail to put back a cards from a Brainstorm, or play two lands in a turn, or whatever else, there's always the 1% chance that it was an accident or just an "opportunistic" cheat. That's where the temporary suspension comes in.

Where I completely agree with you is with the clearly practiced and premeditated cheats (Humphries) and the demonstrated patterns and history (Bertoncini). Personally, I would have lifetimed both of them for what happened, but I don't necessarily think that every single "cheating" incident deserves a lifetime. For example, this one:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/ptktk/disqualification-round-7-2014-10-10

This is the "giving into temptation" cheat. This is where the player gets DQd and there will be some sort of investigation with the possibility of additional follow-up punishment if its determined to be necessary. You don't lifetime someone for this by itself.
 
A

Arksy

Member
From what I could tell, this was out of the ordinary as well. The entire point of tonight was to host an event with more than 32 so they could register for advanced status with WoTC.....so they heavily advertised it and dropped the drafting price down from $20 to $12 (keep in mind this is Australia)...and they managed to get 62 all up.

This was the same shop which had 8 for FNM two weeks ago if you remember so yeah, it's a new shop trying to establish itself on the scene. They only got 30 for gameday last week which was sad because to retain advanced status they needed 32.
 
U

ultron87

Member
divisionbyzorro said:
So generally there is a measure of doubt with an individual cheating incident. If you fail to put back a cards from a Brainstorm, or play two lands in a turn, or whatever else, there's always the 1% chance that it was an accident or just an "opportunistic" cheat. That's where the temporary suspension comes in.
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That chance for it being a mistake is probably way bigger than 1% too. Everyone has probably played a second land after combat late in the game or cast a WW spells for WU or attacked with a summoning sick creature and never even realized it. Those mistakes will always be part of the game and have to be allowable (but still tracked) in the way tournaments are adjudacated until we all just play on MTGO.
 
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An-Det

Member
In addition to Trevor's banning, Bertoncini is now banned again for 3 years. That one I find more interesting considering the history there.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
An-Det said:
In addition to Trevor's banning, Bertoncini is now banned again for 3 years. That one I find more interesting considering the history there.
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Wow. I guess they got tired of his shenanigans after all.

But seriously, just pull the trigger and lifetime the fool at this point. If you think his activities are worth three more years in the bin, just get rid of him entirely.
 
A

Arksy

Member
Anyone got a link to what Bertochini did? I saw the Trevor Humphries thing on Reddit, pretty disgusting behaviour...but this is the first I've heard of the other two.
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Arksy said:
Anyone got a link to what Bertochini did? I saw the Trevor Humphries thing on Reddit, pretty disgusting behaviour...but this is the first I've heard of the other two.
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Brainstorm, don't put cards back.

Alex was playing in round 4 of the Legacy open against a 12-post opponent who had 2 Islands and 5 post lands in play, while alex had 3 Volcs, one Island, and one Fetchland in play, along with a Young Pyromancer and a Blood Moon. Alex's opponent draws a card, and casts Candelabra, which resolves. He passes priority to Alex, who casts Price of Progess. Opp then casts Repeal targeting Alex's Pyromancer. Alex responds with a Pyroblast, and his Opp casts Flusterstorm for 5 copies. Alex thinks for a moment, and then casts Brainstorm. It resolves, and he draws 3 cards, going up to 6 cards in hand. At this point, Alex looks at his hand, thinks for a bit, and then organizes every spell on the stack in a physical stack to make things more clear, but he leaves the brainstorm in his graveyard. He then asks his Opp what the copies of Flusterstorm are targeting, to which his Opp says "all on Price". Then Alex asks his opp if the Pyroblast resolves against Repeal. His Opp says "yes", and so Alex says that Flusterstorm resolves. He then untaps his lands and draws a card for his turn.
If you haven't noticed, Alex failed to fully resolve Brainstorm when he did not place two cards from his hand onto the top of his deck. At this point, my friend and I quickly leave to call a judge over. My friend is the one who tells the judge to follow him, and at this point I stop watching the game.
Click to expand...
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
Whoops! Early leaked Commander spoiler:

AB2OH5z.jpg
ymNvVBq.jpg
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
The new Sam Stoddard article on the mothership is pretty interesting. He calls Thoughtseize and Courser of Kruphix a mistake because open information creates a more skill-testing game, but Miracles were a success because random topdecks are exciting.
 
K

kirblar

Member
Boettcher: Also a scumbag.

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2k79tn/rookie_of_the_year_jared_boettcher_running_the/

https://m.facebook.com/harry.c.148/posts/10152840375259617?comment_id=10152840418684617&offset=0&total_comments=28&notif_t=feed_comment_reply

The new Sam Stoddard article on the mothership is pretty interesting. He calls Thoughtseize and Courser of Kruphix a mistake because open information creates a more skill-testing game but Miracles were a success because random topdecks are exciting.
Click to expand...
The mechanic is good, the execution on some (Bonfire) less so. Outside of Legacy you aren't setting them up with Top/Brainstorm
 
S

SigmasonicX

Member
divisionbyzorro said:
Whoops! Early leaked Commander spoiler:

AB2OH5z.jpg
ymNvVBq.jpg
Click to expand...

I absolutely love the flavor of Feldon. It is a testament to Wizards that they were able to demonstrate so much about that guy just with rules text, art, and one line of flavor text. Lieutenant is also an interesting ability.

EDIT: Feldon's backstory, for reference. The Third Path was a group during the Brothers' War (between Urza and Mishra) that was opposed to both sides. The Ice Age caused by the end of the Brothers' War led to the death of his wife, so he tried to replace her with a robot, but then decided that was a bad idea and disabled it. I guess this card implies that he just kept on doing that before he went on his quest for other magics to resurrect her.
 
F

Firemind

Member
kirblar said:
Boettcher: Also a scumbag.

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2k79tn/rookie_of_the_year_jared_boettcher_running_the/

https://m.facebook.com/harry.c.148/posts/10152840375259617?comment_id=10152840418684617&offset=0&total_comments=28&notif_t=feed_comment_reply
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Seems pretty intentional here. He shuffles the top card to the bottom and back again, then never moves the top card. I don't know about you guys, but when I shuffle I don't take a single card to shuffle like that.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
kirblar said:
Boettcher: Also a scumbag.

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/2k79tn/rookie_of_the_year_jared_boettcher_running_the/

https://m.facebook.com/harry.c.148/posts/10152840375259617?comment_id=10152840418684617&offset=0&total_comments=28&notif_t=feed_comment_reply
Click to expand...

This is a bunch of nothing. I'm watching his shuffles over and over again at the timestamps indicated, and they're not suspect. Heck, at the Pro Tour, Ari Lax was accused of stacking the deck as well. When playing against an Ascendency combo player, his opponent cracked a fetch and, on multiple occasions, found multiple Ascendencies at the bottom of the deck. He actually called a judge over during sideboards to make it look like a rules question, and a judge observed the rest of the match. It actually happened again in game two, even with the judges watching. Sometimes, lands end up on top. Or on bottom. There is variance, after all. (Ari told this story on a recent episode of Cedric Phillips' podcast).

With most shuffling techniques, it's actually super easy for someone to naturally keep the same card on top repeatedly, especially when you don't riffle shuffle (and Magic courtesy is to not riffle your opponent's deck, generally speaking). This is due to the fact that you are naturally gripping the top of the deck with your palm, and the top card has the best grip and won't naturally dislodge. This is why you should alternate mash shuffles with cuts. I actually have a tendency to deliberately cut away the top card because it "feels" wrong for me to leave the top of the deck seemingly unrandomized.

I noticed this was happening myself when I first started playing paper magic. Now I have this weird pattern where I grab the bottom half of the deck, put the top half of that on top, and the rest on the bottom, then mash a few more times, then grab the bottom half again, put the bottom half of that on top and the rest on bottom, then mash a few more times. My goal is to ensure that by the end of it, I have no idea where the top or the bottom of the deck ended up (and they're certainly not where they started). But I'm quite deliberate about it. Before I started doing that, I found that the top of the deck basically never moved, and that bothered me.
 
F

Firemind

Member
divisionbyzorro said:
This is a bunch of nothing. I'm watching his shuffles over and over again at the timestamps indicated, and they're not suspect. Heck, at the Pro Tour, Ari Lax was accused of stacking the deck as well. When playing against an Ascendency combo player, his opponent cracked a fetch and, on multiple occasions, found multiple Ascendencies at the bottom of the deck. He actually called a judge over during sideboards to make it look like a rules question, and a judge observed the rest of the match. It actually happened again in game two, even with the judges watching. Sometimes, lands end up on top. Or on bottom. There is variance, after all. (Ari told this story on a recent episode of Cedric Phillips' podcast).

With most shuffling techniques, it's actually super easy for someone to naturally keep the same card on top repeatedly, especially when you don't riffle shuffle (and Magic courtesy is to not riffle your opponent's deck, generally speaking). This is due to the fact that you are naturally gripping the top of the deck with your palm, and the top card has the best grip and won't naturally dislodge. This is why you should alternate mash shuffles with cuts. I actually have a tendency to deliberately cut away the top card because it "feels" wrong for me to leave the top of the deck seemingly unrandomized.

I noticed this was happening myself when I first started playing paper magic. Now I have this weird pattern where I grab the bottom half of the deck, put the top half of that on top, and the rest on the bottom, then mash a few more times, then grab the bottom half again, put the bottom half of that on top and the rest on bottom, then mash a few more times. My goal is to ensure that by the end of it, I have no idea where the top or the bottom of the deck ended up (and they're certainly not where they started). But I'm quite deliberate about it. Before I started doing that, I found that the top of the deck basically never moved, and that bothered me.
Click to expand...
Look at this: http://i.imgur.com/XppVWBv.gif

When he overhand shuffles he takes exactly one card and shuffles it to the bottom. Not condemning, but super suspicious.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
bigkrev said:
Here is an easier to watch, slow motion video of Jared from the SCG Invi
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nLoG-azie6Y
Click to expand...

Yep, I watched that one too. My comments from the Reddit thread (which are sure to get downvoted to oblivion considering that Reddit is now convinced he's guilty):

There are a number of key differences between this and the Humphries video:

1) We had visual evidence of Humphries looking at the bottom card of the library and making no attempt to block it with his hands. Here, while the card is partially visible, Jared is at least attempting to cover it with his right hand and grab the deck correctly.

2) While the bottom card does indeed end up at the top, the shuffle that puts it there appears quite sloppy. Humphries was clearly thumbing exactly one card from bottom to top multiple times. Jared here is doing something of a multi-cut, cards are sticking together in their sleeves oddly, and the bottom ends up on top. Odd, but not damning.

3) Yes, the top card doesn't move. Here's what I want to point out: the top card not moving isn't necessarily indicative of cheating. It's only indicative of cheating when combing with obvious, continual top manipulation. It's actually very easy to leave the top card unshuffled when mashing because of the way your palm grabs the top of the deck - the closer the card is to the top, the more likely it is to stay in your grip when you fan out the cards to mash together.

(In fact, this is why you're supposed to cut and/or multi-cut the deck. It's really easy for the cards at the top to accidentally stay near the top otherwise. A wise player protecting themselves against their opponent being sketchy is going to make sure that the top card gets moved down in the deck.)

To recap: with Humphries we had clear, repeated evidence that the deck was being shuffled with the bottom clearly visible. We saw the bottom go to the top multiple times and never move. And we saw his eyes look at the deck multiple times while shuffling.

None of the videos I've seen today of Jared's shuffling have this level of evidence necessary to say with confidence (or even mild certainty) that he's cheating.
Click to expand...
 
H

Hero

Member
divisionbyzorro said:
So generally there is a measure of doubt with an individual cheating incident. If you fail to put back a cards from a Brainstorm, or play two lands in a turn, or whatever else, there's always the 1% chance that it was an accident or just an "opportunistic" cheat. That's where the temporary suspension comes in.

Where I completely agree with you is with the clearly practiced and premeditated cheats (Humphries) and the demonstrated patterns and history (Bertoncini). Personally, I would have lifetimed both of them for what happened, but I don't necessarily think that every single "cheating" incident deserves a lifetime. For example, this one:

http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/coverage/ptktk/disqualification-round-7-2014-10-10

This is the "giving into temptation" cheat. This is where the player gets DQd and there will be some sort of investigation with the possibility of additional follow-up punishment if its determined to be necessary. You don't lifetime someone for this by itself.
Click to expand...

Sorry I meant intentional, blatant cheating. Forgetful triggers or whatever is a different story.
 
U

ultron87

Member
It certainly isn't damning but every video I've seen where he shuffles in this manner results in his opponent drawing a land on their next draw (obviosuly could be selective sampling). Also he mash shuffles his own deck in a different manner. Could certainly warrant some investigation.
 
K

kirblar

Member
ultron87 said:
It certainly isn't damning but every video I've seen where he shuffles in this manner results in his opponent drawing a land on their next draw (obviosuly could be selective sampling). Also he mash shuffles his own deck in a different manner.
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Yeah, the giveaway here is the sheer totality of it- the numbers simply don't add up. It's way outside any conceivable margin of error.
 
K

keeblerdrow

Member
Yeah, he can't attend pro tours in Japan because they don't issue travel visas to convicted felons. I kinda chuckled at the sheer circumstance of that fact, when I found out.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
kirblar said:
Yeah, the giveaway here is the sheer totality of it- the numbers simply don't add up. It's way outside any conceivable margin of error.
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I played a kid at an LGS a while ago who insisted after shuffling my deck to take two cards randomly out of the middle and put one on top and one on bottom. I chuckled and let it go. He did it every time; it was a stupid pattern he followed, and unless he was just a stone cold master at the age of 10, he wasn't cheating. He said it was "more random" to make sure that the top and bottom came from the middle. It certainly isn't, but that's what he did.

I honestly don't think you have near enough information to say with certainly he's cheating. It's certainly not as obvious as it was with Humphries (the big kicker being that we got to see Humphries' eyes and we knew with certainty that he knew what was on the bottom). From what I see, Jared is sloppy. He's developed a bad shuffling habit with his opponent's decks, and people are really twitchy right now after Humphries and Bertoncini.

I can't, in good faith, support a crusade against Jared like I could against Humphries. I really can't. I would need a lot more evidence.
 
M

Matriox

Member
To be completely honest I'm not a huge fan of my opponent flat out mash shuffling my deck in general. The amount of time taken to do said shuffle is completely obnoxious aswell. If you don't trust me enough to just make regular cuts or a small shuffle then ask me to continue shuffling or call a judge to question my shuffling. Some folks have zero respect for your cards and start mashing corners or even splitting sleeves (I've seen it happen twice in the small amount of tourneys ive been to).

EDIT: Looking more into it, its actually required to shuffle your opponents deck isnt it (at high level stuff)?
 
F

Firemind

Member
Can't be worse than pile shuffling to intentionally give you a game loss. Well, unless you're playing vintage or legacy I suppose and your opponent is riffle shuffling.
 
Y

y2dvd

Member
It depends for me. If I see them pile shuffling, then I will do a simple cut. If I see them turn the deck sideways and shuffle while looking down, whether intentional or not, there's a chance they can see the bottom of their decks, so I will give it a good shuffle. Unfortunately or fortunately, however you want to see it, you should expect opponents to shuffle your deck without much concern for your cards, so invest in good sleeves!
 
U

ultron87

Member
"Pile shuffling" isn't shuffling!

divisionbyzorro said:
I played a kid at an LGS a while ago who insisted after shuffling my deck to take two cards randomly out of the middle and put one on top and one on bottom. I chuckled and let it go. He did it every time; it was a stupid pattern he followed, and unless he was just a stone cold master at the age of 10, he wasn't cheating. He said it was "more random" to make sure that the top and bottom came from the middle. It certainly isn't, but that's what he did.

I honestly don't think you have near enough information to say with certainly he's cheating. It's certainly not as obvious as it was with Humphries (the big kicker being that we got to see Humphries' eyes and we knew with certainty that he knew what was on the bottom). From what I see, Jared is sloppy. He's developed a bad shuffling habit with his opponent's decks, and people are really twitchy right now after Humphries and Bertoncini.

I can't, in good faith, support a crusade against Jared like I could against Humphries. I really can't. I would need a lot more evidence.
Click to expand...

What if that kid did that and every one of your next draws after he shuffled like this you drew a land? And this continued to happen over multiple games/matches. That'd show an observable effect in the player's advantage and a reasonable means that the player could be causing it to happen. That'd be reasonable to be suspicious about, right, even though it could be total random chance? That is what we have here. It isn't just the fact that he shuffles weird, it's that that shuffle seemingly always has a result in his advantage. It definitely isn't certain either and we don't need to run him out of Magic purely based on these videos, but the DCI or SCG should certainly take a look at this stuff and investigate to be sure.

I'm not really a fan of a crowd sourced investigation on Reddit since it could besmirch someone that really did just learn a sloppy shuffling habit, but I'm not sure how effective just sending some video clips to a head judge or tournament organizer would be. Also it lets the general community know to defend against these tactics. I know I was certainly watching how my opponents shuffle my deck more carefully this week. I'm torn.
 
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