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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I think they use Commander as an excuse to print stuff that breaks the color pie in ways weird people in design want without actually having it be relevant outside of the precons themselves. Green enchant, Blue 5 CMC Kraken, etc. are all dumb color pie violations. Remember that Hornet Queen originally was a Commander product too.
Oblivion Ring is not in green's color pie. I imagine Pacify probably could be.
Oblivion Ring is not in green's color pie. I imagine Pacify probably could be.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
...which just kind of demonstrates the problem
Plus these are legal in eternal formats. Will Green essentially having access to Oblivion Ring impact the formats? I don't know, but I don't think it should have the chance to
I disagree pretty strongly on both fronts. It doesn't feel monogreen at all; it feels white-green.I've liked that card ever since I saw it on MTGS two years ago. It's a sweet design, and I actually think the card "feels" very green. It says that the earth dislikes this thing and is growing over it to get rid of it.
Should green get removal? Eh - it's a supplemental product. This is the right place to put it, and it's good to give colors access to effects they can't normally get for formats like Commander, but in a way that "feels" right for the color (see Chaos Warp).
And printing things that are out of a color's wheelhouse shouldn't really be happening anywhere. It being a supplemental product doesn't make it more "ok," in my eyes.
SigmasonicX
Member
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Song of Dryads should be UG.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Also, lol @ Maro having the "FUCK BLUE" conversation we had yesterday on his blog, right now.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
That is pretty funny. But he definitely has a blind spot in his thinking.
"People love to complain about blue moreso than any other color so whenever they perceive blue doing something they think its not supposed to they point it out. That is usually followed by me pointing out that blue has had it in its color pie for a long time. For example, why can blue change creatures into other creatures? Its been doing that since Mirage."
Well...yeah. But blue had direct damage, black had counterspells, etc, etc, etc in the past too. That's just a bad argument.
Plus, people have also complained very long about red's slice of the pie and they're doing a great job trying to shore that up. People have complained about blue for the reasons we already went over. It's not complaints about nothing.
"People love to complain about blue moreso than any other color so whenever they perceive blue doing something they think its not supposed to they point it out. That is usually followed by me pointing out that blue has had it in its color pie for a long time. For example, why can blue change creatures into other creatures? Its been doing that since Mirage."
Well...yeah. But blue had direct damage, black had counterspells, etc, etc, etc in the past too. That's just a bad argument.
Plus, people have also complained very long about red's slice of the pie and they're doing a great job trying to shore that up. People have complained about blue for the reasons we already went over. It's not complaints about nothing.
ThLunarian
Member
There's precedent for green aura removal - see Utopia Vow and Lignify. This is just better than those, that's all.
Edit: I'm super late. And I didn't consider that this is almost literally Oblivion Ring. Neat.
Edit: I'm super late. And I didn't consider that this is almost literally Oblivion Ring. Neat.
SigmasonicX
Member
Both of those are cards that MaRo feels do not fit in green.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Maro just said on his blog that he hates precedent because it makes people believe cards are okay because something else existed that also broke the color pie.
Utopia Vow is from Planar Chaos; the set that was all about colors doing things they shouldn't. Like Red bouncing creatures and green granting things flying.
Snapcaster was made by Tiago Chan. Lorwyn block had all sorts of developmental problems, which Rosewater has admitted to plenty of times.
divisionbyzorro
Member
I guess I don't think color pie bleed is all that bad. Letting a color do things in very small doses that they normally can't is something I actually really like, as long as it's done in a way that feels like that color. And by feel, I mean more on a resonance level; it needs to resonate as something that color would do. Turning something into a land is either green or black, and I'm fine with it as green in this case.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I would be less concerned with it if it didn't keep happening on cards capable of seeing competitive play.
Snapcaster was never red. People in R&D realizing, in hindsight, that it would work better in red, but realized too late that they should ask Tiago if he would mind them changing the color.
A) After it seemed there was going to be a Morph theme in the Blue deck I was expecting Vesuvan Shapeshifter and hoping for a Modern frame Voidmage Prodigy. I was disappointed to get neither
B) Huh. Song of Dryads is a weird card. There is precedent but I figured that it would be precedent WOTC would be hesitant to follow and Maro's word's echo that. Snap include into my Enchantment Cube and maybe my Regular Cube too.
C) Lots of interesting cards and reprints in here but I'm going to have to do some value calculations to discern if its worth me to pick up the decks or hunt down singles.
What color do you want to move transformation to? It's clear that its an effect WOTC wants to keep in the game. The examples you provided were instances where the giving color had too much or the receiving color had too little. From a developmental concern, the mechanic has been a non-issue for almost the entirety of Magic.
Is Blue not allowed to have ANY good creatures? No doubt these dudes defined formats but we are talking about one really good creature in that color every 3-4 years. I don't think the occasional strong Blue (or any color) dude will ruin Magic and it certainly isn't a habit. There are outliers but overall mono Blue creatures still suck overall compared to other colors.
Song of Dryads won't see play in Legacy/Vintage if that's your concern.
THANK YOU. I feel the pain people suffered at the hands of Delver in standard has warped their memories and distorted the narrative. They got so annoyed by a card that they started to imagine it wronging them in ways it never actually did.
B) Huh. Song of Dryads is a weird card. There is precedent but I figured that it would be precedent WOTC would be hesitant to follow and Maro's word's echo that. Snap include into my Enchantment Cube and maybe my Regular Cube too.
C) Lots of interesting cards and reprints in here but I'm going to have to do some value calculations to discern if its worth me to pick up the decks or hunt down singles.
What color do you want to move transformation to? It's clear that its an effect WOTC wants to keep in the game. The examples you provided were instances where the giving color had too much or the receiving color had too little. From a developmental concern, the mechanic has been a non-issue for almost the entirety of Magic.
Is Blue not allowed to have ANY good creatures? No doubt these dudes defined formats but we are talking about one really good creature in that color every 3-4 years. I don't think the occasional strong Blue (or any color) dude will ruin Magic and it certainly isn't a habit. There are outliers but overall mono Blue creatures still suck overall compared to other colors.
Song of Dryads won't see play in Legacy/Vintage if that's your concern.
THANK YOU. I feel the pain people suffered at the hands of Delver in standard has warped their memories and distorted the narrative. They got so annoyed by a card that they started to imagine it wronging them in ways it never actually did.
GamerKingFaiz
Member
What a heart wrencher.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I'll believe it when I see it. Three mana to hit any permanent is good enough that I'm at least wary
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Also apparently one of the black cards has Extort? How does that work? Is the fact that its a hybrid symbol hidden inside reminder text enough?
I think so. We looked it up a while ago in my playgroup and figured Extort could be black or white, even in mono decks.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Pontiff of Blight was a RTR block card.
ThLunarian
Member
Wary of what? That all the green control decks running around in Legacy and Vintage will be able to remove a permanent for three mana, at sorcery speed, and at card disadvantage?
Beast Within is already better (instant speed and doesn't accelerate the opponent) and doesn't see play.Yeah, reminder text doesn't count.
Hey look, it's exactly how blue transformation should work
This is a really neat effect in green, though I'm not sure if it fits in the color pie.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
As for the transformation effect, I'm personally cool with blue and green sharing it. I'd personally prefer it be primary in green, secondary in blue. If you take away all precedent (lame duck argument as there is precedent on all sides of nearly everything to do with the color pie) it feels right.
Green needs another way of dealing with creatures. Fight is nice, but considering every other color has multiple ways, it could use another, limited way of dealing with creature creep.
Nature is all about transformation and rebirth. Blue, if anything, is about finding other means to replicate natural phenomenon.
Or, they could just do more Ambush Viper type cards in green and not have to mess with it at all.
Green needs another way of dealing with creatures. Fight is nice, but considering every other color has multiple ways, it could use another, limited way of dealing with creature creep.
Nature is all about transformation and rebirth. Blue, if anything, is about finding other means to replicate natural phenomenon.
Or, they could just do more Ambush Viper type cards in green and not have to mess with it at all.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I seent it.
The sense I've gotten from WOTC, and Maro has reconfirmed it today, is that they often don't want the effect to be reversible (and often in fiction it isn't). How does one represent that without exiling (honest question)?
Maro also responds to 'green doesn't have good removal' with 'green can cast creatures faster'. Which is bullshit since it has no way to refill a hand once countered out, while most other colors do.
So I don't think they are always right.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
mooshimanx
Destroy all creatures. Creatures destroyed become birds of paradise tokens.
Wrath of Caw
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Green is second in card draw. Green's card draw just requires creatures. Green also gets uncounterable creatures.
"Most other colors" don't have a way to refill their hands. Neither white, nor red gets card advantage through card drawing. Green and black both do and then, of course, blue gets it the most.
I would say black gets it way easier than green
And uncounterable jacks the cost up almost always into unplayable range, aside from Thrun
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Red has Chandraw (exile-play), Green has straight card draw tied to its creatures), Black can get cards for life, Blue can draw for mana and White can't draw at all.
Plus Squadron Hawk
Exile all creatures. For each creature exiled this way, its owner puts a 0/1 bee token into play with "Flying. Sacrifice this creature to counter target spell."
Squadron Hawk was a huuuuge mistake, lol.
But yes, that's the general idea. Now we get stuff like Wingmate Roc and Brimaz, which I think is supposed to be the "balanced" version of Squadron Hawk's concept.
Green gets wrath, it's just limited to stuff on wings!
But yes, that's the general idea. Now we get stuff like Wingmate Roc and Brimaz, which I think is supposed to be the "balanced" version of Squadron Hawk's concept.
Green gets wrath, it's just limited to stuff on wings!
hahahhha Maro is just trolling people now
We have gone after a lot of blues strengths with a hammer. Counterspelling is worse. Card drawing is worse. Bounce is worse. Stealing and copying have gone up in rarity to become much less relevant to limited play. Blue has real weaknesses that cause it all sorts of problems. We have not been ignoring blue.
Treasure Cruise
Dig Through Time
Sphinx Revelation
Trolled
We have gone after a lot of blues strengths with a hammer. Counterspelling is worse. Card drawing is worse. Bounce is worse. Stealing and copying have gone up in rarity to become much less relevant to limited play. Blue has real weaknesses that cause it all sorts of problems. We have not been ignoring blue.
Treasure Cruise
Dig Through Time
Sphinx Revelation
Trolled
That's blue, sorry.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Wingmate Roc is a card I was high on when everyone hated it and now I'm low on it when everyone seems to like it. I don't know, there's something about it that I'm never as happy to see it in my hand as I'd imagine. Which is weird since you usually can win pretty quickly if you resolve one with the raid trigger.
I think its the fact that the meta is so removal oriented you can never reliably expect basically any creature to stick long enough to trigger raid.
Added y'all. Not sure if it'll show up as your buddy without adding me, but mine's CWW.
PS. I can only standard.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Fun with Modern Daily decks:
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/16295
Spoiler:
Delver
Delver
Delver
Delver
Delver
Burn w/ Treasure Cruise
23 copies of Treasure Cruise in the 4-0 decks.
http://www.mtggoldfish.com/tournament/16295
Spoiler:
Delver
Delver
Delver
Delver
Delver
Burn w/ Treasure Cruise
23 copies of Treasure Cruise in the 4-0 decks.
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