If there was a judge watching who stopped the game because of it then fine. But to concede and then actively look for your opponent to make the mistake then immediately call them on it to get the win is such a dickhead move.
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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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If there was a judge watching who stopped the game because of it then fine. But to concede and then actively look for your opponent to make the mistake then immediately call them on it to get the win is such a dickhead move.
A guy on MTGO just lost after accidentally targeting me with Ancestral Recall
I would be so sad.
divisionbyzorro
Member
It's a damn GP. It's called Competitive Rules Enforcement for a reason. Ari did absolutely nothing wrong. To say otherwise is just standing on a moral high ground that doesn't need to exist.
It actually annoys me to see people get so angry at Ari. Every competitive game in the world has rules, and you have to follow them. Ari let his opponent make a mistake that cost him the match. News flash: the only reason that Magic isn't just a bunch of dice rolls is because some players make fewer mistakes than others. You are successful at Magic because over the course of a tournament, you are the one who made the least amount of mistakes. End of story. You aren't responsible for stopping your opponent from screwing up.
Is the rule kinda shit? Probably. It clearly needs a downgrade path for certain cases. Is Ari a bad person for what he did? Not in the slightest. How is it worse than letting your opponent forget a Pact trigger? It's not. To say otherwise is ridiculous.
It actually annoys me to see people get so angry at Ari. Every competitive game in the world has rules, and you have to follow them. Ari let his opponent make a mistake that cost him the match. News flash: the only reason that Magic isn't just a bunch of dice rolls is because some players make fewer mistakes than others. You are successful at Magic because over the course of a tournament, you are the one who made the least amount of mistakes. End of story. You aren't responsible for stopping your opponent from screwing up.
Is the rule kinda shit? Probably. It clearly needs a downgrade path for certain cases. Is Ari a bad person for what he did? Not in the slightest. How is it worse than letting your opponent forget a Pact trigger? It's not. To say otherwise is ridiculous.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Its a valid play, actually. Mostly because you're gambling with the most likely result being you conceded.
The problem is changing the rules to require the losing player to ask for it is that nobody will and then people will cheat for real.
divisionbyzorro
Member
I just think the Magic community gets their feelings hurt too easily. Save the outrage for something that really matters instead of vilifying a guy who maybe possibly could have been a smidge more thoughtful in the way he live tweeted his results.
EDIT: To be fair, it happens in every game/sport. Oh, that guy seemed upset at losing the Super Bowl and that other guy seemed super happy and did something insensitive? Let's make a national story about it because we have nothing better to do with ourselves than try to find some way that we can feel superior to someone who is more successful than we are.
EDIT: To be fair, it happens in every game/sport. Oh, that guy seemed upset at losing the Super Bowl and that other guy seemed super happy and did something insensitive? Let's make a national story about it because we have nothing better to do with ourselves than try to find some way that we can feel superior to someone who is more successful than we are.
As fork may point out, you are not even disagreeing with him here. It's a valid play but it's also a dick move. No one has ever been beloved for winning on a technicality - in anything.
divisionbyzorro
Member
At FNM, I'd agree. At the kitchen table, I'm with you 100%. But it's not a dick move when you're playing at a GP. Whether they realized it or not, that's part of what they signed up for when they registered for the GP. It's your responsibility to play the game correctly - not your opponents. It's kinda silly to expect your opponent to not hold you to following the rules at a competitive level. If you don't want that kind of experience, then just don't play Competitive REL Magic. The rules are in place for a reason - if you don't like them, you have every right to voice that concern.
Ari did exactly what the rules say he should do when his opponent failed to reveal. To call that a "dick move" just doesn't make sense.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I meant less rules-valid and more that I don't think its a dick move (I'm assuming the play here was conceding in a manner such that the opponent would be lulled into not revealing). Its such a desperate gamble that I don't even fault a player for trying because he loses the game by attempting it.
Granted, it also occurs when not trying concede as subterfuge, but revealing a morph is not terribly difficult in the first place. The burden to reveal can only properly rest on the player playing a morph, really.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
What happened?
Ari lost a match at 6-2, and his opponent scooped up his morphs without revealing them, sending Ari to 7-2 instead of 6-3 and out.
Tweeted this during GP: https://twitter.com/armlx/status/536356294513680384
Presumably he defends it in his SCG article but I don't have Premium. He continues to defend it down in the comments for the article as people call him the "scummiest", or whatever.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The only real dumb move is tweeting about it when everyone already is mad at you for no real reason.
I mean he's a real life pro player, not an anime character demanding fair fights. He's gonna take a win that's thrown at him.
I mean he's a real life pro player, not an anime character demanding fair fights. He's gonna take a win that's thrown at him.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Okay yeah put me in the camp that says that penalty is way too hard. The penalty for not revealing your morphs should be that you reveal your morphs.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
A friend of mine runs this deck based on trying to give everyone good things so they'll leave him alone
No... I want to grief people lol
It's a deck for a friend. Though I certainly would play it.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Aggressive Mining.
Plus you can give away things where it doesn't matter who the owner is. Try Pacifying someone's creature, then giving them the Pacifism. Tee her.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The only time you suffer the penalty is when the card are back in your deck. That doesn't work.
The other viable option to me is making the penalty for cheating so stiff nobody would ever try it.
divisionbyzorro
Member
It is. If the judge believes you were cheating, you get DQd. The game loss penalty applies in all other cases.
I kind of agree with what LSV wrote where the advantage you'd get from cheating by playing an island (it is always an island) as a Morph is so minimal compared with the huge risk of getting caught that most people who are willing to cheat won't do it this way. It isn't even as middling as an extra 2/2 for 3. It's an extra 2/2 that you can't risk in combat because if it dies you get disqualified from the tournament.
So like 97% of the people getting assessed this penalty are doing it accidentally. It might make sense to have the first time you do it be a warning that is followed up by an investigation.
So like 97% of the people getting assessed this penalty are doing it accidentally. It might make sense to have the first time you do it be a warning that is followed up by an investigation.
That doesn't work. Once the cards get taken off the table, there's no way to tell what card was really face down. If I play a forest as a morph creature, then scoop up my cards at the end of the game I can show you an actual morph creature in my deck, and you have no way of verifying that it's what was on the table.
What a twat. I can't wait for the world championship to start and teach him the meaning of humility.
Being an ass about it publicly is a way of getting the stupid rule changed.
ThLunarian
Member
Thought Lash (or maybe Thoughtlash) is pretty mean.
You could always just be required to reveal your whole deck to the opponent.
Edit: I didn't read that whole reply, sorry. It's up to the judges to determine whether cheating has taken place. If it has, it's a DQ.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Should just get DCI banned if they want people to stop doing it AND get rid of the game-loss rule.
He won the most recent Pro Tour title. Nothing will teach him humility.
Speaking of the World Championship, it should be run in every format, including Vintage. I just want to see paper Vintage on camera.
Celestial Dawn and Steel Golem?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Esper Control is an interesting build, but I'm honestly not real excited about the mana base for it. Its a deck where Fetches not being real duals is a real liability.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Grid Monitor. Rust Elemental.
That is a good point.
In cube related news, people don't seem to respect white weenie much... I want to splash the Vindicate, but I only have a Marsh Flats and I didn't get passed Lingering Souls...
"God's Beard!"
Member
You should cut the Vindicate, the art is wrong.
divisionbyzorro
Member
I haven't drafted the cube near as much as I wanted this go around. The last time I drafted it I got curb stomped by White Weenie - it's absolutely on my watch list for the next chance I get to draft.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Brimaz is super legit in the Legacy Cube for me every time I pick him.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
So I'm not the only one who always mistakes the Weatherlight for a TIE fighter at first glance in the Vindicate art right?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I think after playtesting a bit, the biggest problem I have with Esper Control is not only the land, but that I'm not sure I even like Elspeth and End Hostilities here.
Elspeth is great sure, but she gets hit with Hero's Downfall all the time, and End Hostilities is a lot more uncomfortable at 3WW than it is at 2WW for whatever reason. That one extra turn seems to really matter a lot.
I think I'm going to try doing it as a BUG deck and using Kiora.
Elspeth is great sure, but she gets hit with Hero's Downfall all the time, and End Hostilities is a lot more uncomfortable at 3WW than it is at 2WW for whatever reason. That one extra turn seems to really matter a lot.
I think I'm going to try doing it as a BUG deck and using Kiora.
Ah, slain by the classic click land -> f4 -> mtgo starts to lag -> pass the turn without playing a land. I never did learn to press f4 after the land hits the battlefield. :lol
Fair play to my opponent though. Keranos is insane in the matchups where you want to grind out your opponent. Not even Armageddon would have saved me. Yet more proof Armageddon is a win more card and Tangle Wire is GOAT.
Fair play to my opponent though. Keranos is insane in the matchups where you want to grind out your opponent. Not even Armageddon would have saved me. Yet more proof Armageddon is a win more card and Tangle Wire is GOAT.
charlequin
Banned
I don't think you really have useful standards about what constitutes a rules problem. Almost every situation where players consistently misunderstand or misplay comes down to a poorly-designed rule. It makes more casual play miserable and it leads to dumb technicalities in high-level play.
I actually do have premium, can I paste an excerpt from his article here or is that against the rules? I could look it up but I'm lazy, basically he says the morph rules need to be changed but doesn't have anything to say about making it better other than unsleeving the morph as Kirb said.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
It is not a poorly designed rule that Shock cannot target a Planeswalker. As a new permanent type it needed to be possible to interact with it with pre-walker cards.
It is a poorly designed-rule, but a necessary evil. If planeswalkers had been there from the beginning, that the redirect rule would not have been implemented.
The rules should aim to be as intuitive as possible. The best way to avoid unintuitive corner cases is to avoid creating cards that invoke them regularly, no less, as their main mechanic. The only reason to have a planeswalker with morph is the unintuitive effects it has on blocking and targeted spells. The only other reason I can think of is to make the cost of playing the walker cheaper, but that's also a pretty big red flag.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
It sounds like we agree it shouldn't exist, at the very least.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Whatever I said about Esper Control is way different in BUG Control. Now that is a fun deck. Its just a first pass at the idea, but its basically the regular old control deck we've seen with Kiora and AEtherspouts and a couple of Sultai Charm for versatility. I'm sure it exists already since the idea is so basic - cast Kiora and Ashiok and protect them with counters. Kiora seems really good in this since she's signficantly easier to protect with Negate than Elspeth was in Esper due to her CMC being 2 lower. AEtherspouts is such a good card and can force really bad decisions by opponents who eat the huge tempo loss to recast a creature. Another card I've really liked it Void Snare, an M15 common that's just a simple 1 CMC Sorcery speed non-land bounce. More useful than it sounds.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Got fucking rocked again in Legacy today. 1-2. Man this format is tough.
shrapnelmagnet
Member
I don't know what I dislike more: Magic Online OR the people who play Magic Online.
I'm in semi rage/rant mode, so I'll (not) spare everyone, but the idea that someone blocks me days ago for running Stone Rain in ONE deck when they are known for running all sorts of lockout tactics is just... well, it's certainly interesting. I should be fucking happy that I am no longer able to interact with them, but, frankly, I'm annoyed. Whatever. I guess.
How do Miracles players ever make / keep friends?
I'm in semi rage/rant mode, so I'll (not) spare everyone, but the idea that someone blocks me days ago for running Stone Rain in ONE deck when they are known for running all sorts of lockout tactics is just... well, it's certainly interesting. I should be fucking happy that I am no longer able to interact with them, but, frankly, I'm annoyed. Whatever. I guess.
How do Miracles players ever make / keep friends?
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