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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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Slippery slope arguments are just near-universally terrible.
Sultai Ascendancy is a card that could be good if that style of control deck were viable.
Well, a slippery slope did result in True-Name Nemesis because MaRo thinks a few scattered Blue cards with protection from across Magic's history meant Blue had "protection from weird things" as part of its color pie.
LOL
"God's Beard!"
Member
Depending on how the rest of the set shapes up, Dictate-Palm Boros Burn might actually be a real deck with these additions.
That land's pretty garbage. The storage lands function better in anything two-colored (Because, you know, their colored mana can actually be used for a variety of spells), and it's very much outclassed by competition for creating mana of any color.
Ah well, they can't all be winners.
Ah well, they can't all be winners.
"God's Beard!"
Member
But it's not legendary! If you do nothing for the first four turns of the game you can play Stormbreath Dragon on the same turn he comes down normally, but with enough mana leftover for Crucible of Fire! Value!
Or wait!
Turn 1: forest + Elvish Mystic
Turn 2: CSD + Elvish Mystic + Activate CSD
Turn 3: CSD + Elvish Mystic + Activate both CSDs
Turn 4: Land + TWO STORMBREATH DRAGONS WHEEE
Standard will never be the same.
charlequin
Banned
Rosewater seems to consider Hornet Queen evidence of this problem (like, it got printed in a Commander deck, which convinced people it was okay to print in a Core Set) but I think that's just evidence that nobody else in R&D actually agrees with him about the green flying thing.
Well, that wasn't an accident, it was a conscious decision to bleed every evergreen keyword into one or two extra colors; it just spent a long time not actually being followed up on because protection is a stupid ability.
Err, what?
Wait what?
Order of sets starting design-> KTK, DTK, FRF. They did this set last.
charlequin
Banned
Oh wait, I get it. Normally they design the sets of a three-set block in order: first 1, then 2, then 3. But they take twice as long on large sets as they do on small. When the third set is a standalone large set (Eldrazi or Avacyn) it starts before the small set, but they're not connected so it doesn't really matter (and on Avacyn they threw out like four months of work and did a rush job anyway.)
In this case, however, they worked on Khans, then started Dragons, then only started designing Fate once the other two were well underway. That helped them build it so it would connect to both other sets, but it also means it probably has a bit of the usual third-set tendency towards complexity.
I don't agree. So many people seem to think that Song of the Dryads is fine because of Beast Within and Lignify. The next time a similar card shows up, people will point to those three cards as precedent. The nature of the game means that mistakes can't be undone, so I do think it's more important for them to not make mistakes in the first place.
Sure, but those just aren't good cards (Beast Within just needed non-creature added.) He's using the argument on perfectly reasonable cards like Griffin and Runic Repetition.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
The biggest problem is the muddying of the waters with exile not really being an exile zone any longer. It's another game zone, and now one that just functions as Graveyard 2.0. It's unnecessary and it doesn't help new players at all. My feeling is that if something is exiled, that should put it out of play for the duration of the game, with no exceptions. If that rule can be broken, then functionally, it's just another graveyard.
charlequin
Banned
The only people who need to be convinced are the other R&D members. It's like 15 people. If Mark can convince them not to make these cards at all, he could also convince them not to use supplemental product cards as precedent for regular sets. The real unspoken problem Rosewater has here is that his boss is Aaron Forsythe, who is also the guy who thinks the line is much further out.
Also, I really do think Mark is seriously wrong about the underlying value of cards like those in Eternal-format products. The long-term health and value of formats like Commander isn't best-served having blue be the obvious overpowered, color-bleediest color just because that's how things were in the early days; it's better to give the other colors some stuff that can help them play on the same level as blue in those formats, then not bring that stuff into Standard the same way that they don't just randomly print other inappropriate stuff in Standard.
ThLunarian
Member
I mean, if you really want to go there, green had Desert Twister way back in Arabian Nights (designed by Richard Garfield), and it even got reprinted in Mercadian Masques (designed by Mark Rosewater + others). Tornado came around in Alliances (I don't recognize any names on the design team list). There have been colorless ways to pinpoint kill creatures for years (Duplicant, Spine of Ish Sah, Ulamog).
The occasional green card that can nix a creature is not a big deal, especially if it's a flavor win. The color pie is important to keep in mind, but it's silly to be super-strict about it.
I do tend to agree with Rosewater on the colour pie thing - once the genie is out of the bottle it's really hard to put back in.
But then again, Rosewater is responsible for one of the biggest,muddiest confusion of role in the game - artifacts and enchantments. He's spent several podcasts explaining why Theros block couldn't be an enchantment block like Mirrodin was an artifact block, all very reasonable - but ignoring the elephant in the room in that artifacts have basically totally replaced enchantments thanks to mirrodins design. Equipment and coloured casting costs took away the only real separating factors between the two card types. The only difference between the two now is flavour and whether you want red or white to be able to destroy them.
On a completely different topic - maro has also mentioned scourge several times over the past few months, and the failure of its dragon theme. Anyone getting the impression this set is their attempt to do dragons properly?
But then again, Rosewater is responsible for one of the biggest,muddiest confusion of role in the game - artifacts and enchantments. He's spent several podcasts explaining why Theros block couldn't be an enchantment block like Mirrodin was an artifact block, all very reasonable - but ignoring the elephant in the room in that artifacts have basically totally replaced enchantments thanks to mirrodins design. Equipment and coloured casting costs took away the only real separating factors between the two card types. The only difference between the two now is flavour and whether you want red or white to be able to destroy them.
On a completely different topic - maro has also mentioned scourge several times over the past few months, and the failure of its dragon theme. Anyone getting the impression this set is their attempt to do dragons properly?
SigmasonicX
Member
He has talked about this a fair bit. He actually did push to no longer have global effects on artifacts, but the precedent of Howling Mine and such was too much for enough people to get on board.
Perhaps, but that is a pretty big difference in flavour, IMO.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Went down to the local pawn shop today to see if I couldn't find a Crypt Ghast for my Erebos deck. Wound up with a pile of 30+ EDH and modern Storm cards as well as 6 packs of Gatecrash for the gf and I to draft with, as well as the Crypt Ghast! Dude at the counter shrugs his shoulders, "30 bucks even?"
Pawnshop always has the deals ^_^
They also had a pile of Greater Gargadons, but I figured that Restore Balance was going too deep for now.
So I got to replace Slaughter with Necrataal, Nihilith with Crypt Ghast and a couple crappy artifact manlands with some fast mana in my Erebos deck. A little closer to a real EDH deck every time lol
Pawnshop always has the deals ^_^
They also had a pile of Greater Gargadons, but I figured that Restore Balance was going too deep for now.
So I got to replace Slaughter with Necrataal, Nihilith with Crypt Ghast and a couple crappy artifact manlands with some fast mana in my Erebos deck. A little closer to a real EDH deck every time lol
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Oh hey, topical
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
The hedrons in that art are weird. I was under the impression that the hedrons were made by Nahiri specifically for Zendikar. Huh
They were. I'm not sure why there are some on Tarkir.
Neat. I just hope they only print these sorts of cards infrequently, since I don't want to see Exile become a second graveyard.
"God's Beard!"
Member
The Hedrons were designed by Ugin. Nahiri just made them from his blueprints.
divisionbyzorro
Member
So here's a different type of post to break from the spoiler talk. People like to criticize mono-red decks in cube for being boring and easy to play. In reality, while a lot of plays are straightforward, you will still be faced with interesting and tricky decisions regarding sequencing. Here's one from my last cube.
What's the play?
Here's the setup: your opponent is playing Blue/White control, and you are straight mono-red, with a very high percentage of burn spells. Two turns ago, your opponent played a Supreme Verdict, wiping you out. Your only recovery in terms of creatures was a Boros Reckoner. Your opponent untapped and slammed a Batterskull, then passed the turn.
The board: Your opponent has two tapped islands and three tapped plains, plus a Germ token with a Batterskull equipped. He is at 9 life, and has two cards in hand. You saw Daze in game one, and you remember seeing Force of Will in the draft. You have four mountains and a Boros Reckoner. In hand is a Searing Blaze and a Mountain you've been sandbagging (it is turn 7-ish), and you just peeled a Brimstone Volley.
Assuming your opponent is a reasonably intelligent fellow, what is the correct way to sequence your plays? I did win this game, but I believe upon further reflection I probably made a mistake with my sequencing and should have played the turn differently.
What's the play?
Here's the setup: your opponent is playing Blue/White control, and you are straight mono-red, with a very high percentage of burn spells. Two turns ago, your opponent played a Supreme Verdict, wiping you out. Your only recovery in terms of creatures was a Boros Reckoner. Your opponent untapped and slammed a Batterskull, then passed the turn.
The board: Your opponent has two tapped islands and three tapped plains, plus a Germ token with a Batterskull equipped. He is at 9 life, and has two cards in hand. You saw Daze in game one, and you remember seeing Force of Will in the draft. You have four mountains and a Boros Reckoner. In hand is a Searing Blaze and a Mountain you've been sandbagging (it is turn 7-ish), and you just peeled a Brimstone Volley.
Assuming your opponent is a reasonably intelligent fellow, what is the correct way to sequence your plays? I did win this game, but I believe upon further reflection I probably made a mistake with my sequencing and should have played the turn differently.
Mentor looks SWEET <3
A) Lots of players (casuals and new players) love pumping up their dudes. That's why Auras have always been popular even though they are almost always a trap. It's fine if you think they're boring but a lot of people actually like doing that. Just as WOTC eventually made tribal blocks because people kept playing tribal decks even when they were bad, WOTC has been trying to make Auras better and less risky for years. Hexproof was part of that.
B) Avacyn Restored limited sucking had everything to do with shit removal (or at least a lot of it). Wingcrafter was just a fine card and the Sheildmate was barely playable. Most of the power in the UG Soulbound deck was in the Green (not Blue) Soulblound cards mixed with Blue having actually interactive cards in the format like Mist Raven, Peel and Into the Void.
C) Again, TNN was a development issue, not a design issue. It was also more "unfun" than it was overpowered (though unfun is a perfectly fine reason to not like a card). Literally any combination of mechanics is obnoxious if not developed properly.
That had nothing to do with "slippery slope" and everything to do with "Protection from Not Colors" has been officially in Blue's pie since Future Sight.
Almost every other land of this type just lets you tap for mana of any color for the appropriate creature/card types already with having to charge shit up. Why was this card nerfed in this manner?
A) Lots of players (casuals and new players) love pumping up their dudes. That's why Auras have always been popular even though they are almost always a trap. It's fine if you think they're boring but a lot of people actually like doing that. Just as WOTC eventually made tribal blocks because people kept playing tribal decks even when they were bad, WOTC has been trying to make Auras better and less risky for years. Hexproof was part of that.
B) Avacyn Restored limited sucking had everything to do with shit removal (or at least a lot of it). Wingcrafter was just a fine card and the Sheildmate was barely playable. Most of the power in the UG Soulbound deck was in the Green (not Blue) Soulblound cards mixed with Blue having actually interactive cards in the format like Mist Raven, Peel and Into the Void.
C) Again, TNN was a development issue, not a design issue. It was also more "unfun" than it was overpowered (though unfun is a perfectly fine reason to not like a card). Literally any combination of mechanics is obnoxious if not developed properly.
That had nothing to do with "slippery slope" and everything to do with "Protection from Not Colors" has been officially in Blue's pie since Future Sight.
At least that lead developer isn't there anymore.
Almost every other land of this type just lets you tap for mana of any color for the appropriate creature/card types already with having to charge shit up. Why was this card nerfed in this manner?
SigmasonicX
Member
Play the Mountain, attack with Boros Reckoner. If Reckoner is blocked, then cast Searing Blaze targeting Batterskull's germ and pay 1 to give Reckoner first strike, thus killing the germ with no lifelink triggered, leaving the opponent at 6 from the Searing Blaze. Finish your opponent during your next turn. If Reckoner is not blocked, then cast Searing Blaze on the Batterskull's germ, bringing your opponent to 3. Then, use Brimstone Valley on the Reckoner. Your opponent may be confused and allow it even if he has a counter spell, and you can then have Boros Reckoner deal 3 damage to the opponent.
I already saw Maro I think saying that but I don't see that many blue cards with protection from not colours, there's like a handful of those.
divisionbyzorro
Member
So the way I see it, decision making starts by saying "Am I going to play around Daze?" I think, in this scenario, you probably should, because you quite likely lose the game if he doesn't block and Dazes your final burn spell; you'll be out of cards, and he'll attack you and go back up to 7.
I've been waffling back and forth on what the "right" play is, but I think I landed on my original play actually being correct. I think you actually want him to block. You need to make sure he knows he's dead if he doesn't. He can't assume that his Daze is live here with as much mana as you have. If you play land, then Searing Blaze the Germ, then attack with one card in hand, you're either stone cold bluffing, or he's just dead, and considering that the red decks are stacked with burn spells, not blocking seems somewhat foolish.
If he blocks, then he ends the turn at 6 life with an unequipped Batterskull and five mana, and you have a Reckoner and a 3-damage burn spell. He's almost certainly not playing one-drops, and he's already missed a couple of land drops as well, so he's not going to play creature and equip. If he has creatures, the Reckoner can attack through them to keep the Batterskull from mattering; you're essentially gambling on topdecks, and yours are better.
If you attack before Blazing, I think your opponent is better served to not block and gamble that you don't have six points of burn in your hand (he'll almost certainly not put you on Searing Blaze at this point).
I think the sequence is: Mountain, Blaze the Germ, attack. I did this almost on auto-pilot (it was only after thinking about it later that I realized that the situation was more complicated than I gave it credit for). My opponent tanked for a while and didn't block anyway. At this point I was pot-committed, so I fired the Volley at his face. He didn't have Daze or Force.
Either way, you're a strong favorite to win from here - however, I think it's important to deny draw steps to get past topdecks that could be backbreaking.
Are we just not going to talk about how this
costs less than the rest of the cycle and is probably the most powerful? It's like a Thassa that doesn't turn into a 5/5 with a sideboard option built in. I know she was mostly only good in Mono U Devotion, and that deck is mostly gone, but what the hell is this? I feel like this card is being slept on. It filters through your deck, helps power Delve and is decent in multiples since it has a pretty good second mode.
As an aside, I just thought of what a blue Dark Confidant would look like, and it would use the template of this card, just on a 2/1 body for 1U, minus the Dragons ability. That would be insane.
costs less than the rest of the cycle and is probably the most powerful? It's like a Thassa that doesn't turn into a 5/5 with a sideboard option built in. I know she was mostly only good in Mono U Devotion, and that deck is mostly gone, but what the hell is this? I feel like this card is being slept on. It filters through your deck, helps power Delve and is decent in multiples since it has a pretty good second mode.
As an aside, I just thought of what a blue Dark Confidant would look like, and it would use the template of this card, just on a 2/1 body for 1U, minus the Dragons ability. That would be insane.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
But R&D hates blue guys
ThLunarian
Member
No one is going to play the blue siege for the first mode. It doesn't give you card advantage and can't attack or block. The red siege's first mode is better than this one. So is Jeskai Ascendancy. So is Sultai Ascendancy. Relax. Thassa was only playable because of its activated ability and its tendency to become a 5/5. This doesn't come close to that.
The second mode is harder to gauge because it's a unique effect. I'm pretty sure it's not overpowered, but it's probably very good against certain strategies.
The second mode is harder to gauge because it's a unique effect. I'm pretty sure it's not overpowered, but it's probably very good against certain strategies.
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
Seems anti-burn.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Phoenix is sick.
Shadowspear might as well just be Pulse Tracker.
Supplant Form is sweet.
Citadel Siege seems pretty meh at first blush. Need to think about it some more.
Shadowspear might as well just be Pulse Tracker.
Supplant Form is sweet.
Citadel Siege seems pretty meh at first blush. Need to think about it some more.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Now that is a Phoenix I can like
keeblerdrow
Member
That phoenix may have buried Ashcloud's chances of seeing play again. RIP Ashcloud Phoenix.
The first mode is awesome.
- I think you're severely undervaluing what the Scry on Thassa did for those decks, and I feel like an extra draw + loot is comparable to that. Mono U Devotion liked using her as a 5/5 when it could, but it often won without that.
- You really have to consider that this will help power Cruise, while also being good for Whip decks as well.
- The second mode would be awesome against Burn or decks with targeted removal. Not that Burn is a super huge thing in Standard right now, but like I said, it's basically a sideboard option built in.
I just don't agree. I think it's going to see play, even if just to try it out, partially because it's low on the curve, and partially because getting through a deck quicker than normal through card selection is almost always powerful.
Phoenix seems real nice.
It matches up poorly against Mantis Riders but the other flying blockers are things you'd probably be fine with it running into since it plus a Lightning Strike kills most of the relevant ones.
I really like how the blue feathery dragons look with the swept back head piece.
It matches up poorly against Mantis Riders but the other flying blockers are things you'd probably be fine with it running into since it plus a Lightning Strike kills most of the relevant ones.
I really like how the blue feathery dragons look with the swept back head piece.
pelicansurf
Needs a Holiday on Gallifrey
I like all of these cards!!!
lolwut? Ashcloud's amazing. (And brings back this Phoenix)
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