divisionbyzorro
Member
It's all on Gatherer at this point:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&set=+["Fate Reforged"]
-
Hey, guest user. Hope you're enjoying NeoGAF! Have you considered registering for an account? Come join us and add your take to the daily discourse.
Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege
- Thread starter The Technomancer
- Start date
- Status
It's all on Gatherer at this point:
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Search/Default.aspx?action=advanced&set=+["Fate Reforged"]
acheron_xl
Member
If you play in the MTGO Closed Beta, you get asked to play sealed deck with packs made up of cards from the new set mixed with powerful/quirky/rare cards from Magic's past. It's designed to try to put complex, weird board states together with cards from the new set to see if you can find any bugs in the game's code. The games are often incredibly lopsided and not particularly competitive, but you get to see some crazy stuff and fill out the weirdest bug reports.
That's just to set up the context for this: I just got wrecked by a card that I've never seen before, and that might possibly be the single most annoying card to ever have to play against in sealed deck ever:
It's like a Winter Orb that you can never escape from. *shudder*
I used to run this in my old red Covetous Dragon/Karn/Wildfire deck. It reminds me that not only have they just weakened targeted land destruction, they've really scaled back mana denial in general. Urza's/Masques standard was just sick with it. Helix, Static Orb, Rishadan Port, Tangle Wire, Parallax Tide, etc...
divisionbyzorro
Member
It's an obvious unban. It never should have been banned, and it puts variety back in the Rock shell. Right now those strategies should just be Abzan with Siege Rhino; while Rhino is probably better than Bloodbraid, unbanning Bloodbraid at least makes traditional Jund a defensible option in Modern again.
divisionbyzorro
Member
Anything but Altar of the Brood.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Golgari Aggro
Creatures(18):
Spells(20):
Land(22):
Sideboard(15):
Creatures(18):
- 4 Bassara Tower Archer
- 4 Xathrid Slyblade
- 4 Pharika, God of Affliction
- 2 Nylea, God of the Hunt
- 4 Soulflayer
Spells(20):
- 4 Commune with the Gods
- 4 Grave Strength
- 4 Become Immense
- 4 Titanic Growth
- 4 Strength From the Fallen
Land(22):
- 2 Mana Confluence
- 2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
- 4 Llanowar Wastes
- 4 Temple of Malady
- 4 Jungle Hollow
- 3 Forest
- 2 Swamp
Sideboard(15):
- 1 Erebos, God of the Dead
- 4 Mortal's Resolve
- 4 Thoughtseize
- 2 Whip of Erebos
- 4 Drown in Sorrow
Glad I have bought my Planechase BBE two weeks ago.
charlequin
Banned
It's not like people keep drafting formats in any serious volume after they get replaced. The experience people get with it right now is pretty much what they're gonna get.
Putting aside the subjectivity of "best" aside
There isn't actually THAT much variance on this. Pretty much everyone agrees that Eldrazi and Innistrad are amazing; everyone with a soul agrees that M12 and Avacyn Restored were awful. The biggest argument is gonna between the people who love TSP/PCH/FUT or LOR/LOR/MOR and the people whose heads explode at the thought. I don't think there's any chance that the conventional wisdom takes down KTKx3 as anything but a pretty top-tier environment.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Tasigur and Torrent Elemental are insaneeeeeeeeeee in Sidisi Whip.
Delve away Torrent Elemental, cast it, free attacks for Sidisi triggers. SO MUCH VALUE.
Tasigur's ability is just the nuts with Courser and Sidisi out, and you can control a little bit of the outcome if you delve away most of your graveyard before activating.
Delve away Torrent Elemental, cast it, free attacks for Sidisi triggers. SO MUCH VALUE.
Tasigur's ability is just the nuts with Courser and Sidisi out, and you can control a little bit of the outcome if you delve away most of your graveyard before activating.
divisionbyzorro
Member
I think a lot of people say that Innistrad and ROE were the best because they keep getting told they're the best. A not-insignificant portion of the population that plays Magic right now hasn't ever drafted INNx3, and I would bet that there is a sizeable chunk (perhaps even the majority of active players) who haven't drafted ROEx3. The opinions of the long-term players matters a lot here - there really isn't a way to measure the average player's opinion of a set while it's the active format and compare that measurement across all of history. If I remember correctly, the average player only plays Magic for something like 2 years; if that's the case, a significant number of people right now could legitimately say this is the best format they've played.
The "consensus best" formats skew towards being very deep (because the players who do 50-100+ drafts aren't bored by the end of it) and very Spike-y (because those players like to get rewarded for their experience). These are the players whose opinions get listened to and carried forward through time, so they have a disproportional influence over what gets called the "best."
The previous set's popularity is also very important; sets that people love tend to come after sets they hate. ROEx3 followed up ZZZ/ZZW, which (as I understand it) people got really sick of drafting. INNx3 followed up M12. Even M13, which gets a lot of props for being a really good core set experience and generally is considered to be a great format, came right after AVRx3. In other words, if you're given a good set after a bad set, you're likely to remember the good set as being even better than good.
The "consensus best" formats skew towards being very deep (because the players who do 50-100+ drafts aren't bored by the end of it) and very Spike-y (because those players like to get rewarded for their experience). These are the players whose opinions get listened to and carried forward through time, so they have a disproportional influence over what gets called the "best."
The previous set's popularity is also very important; sets that people love tend to come after sets they hate. ROEx3 followed up ZZZ/ZZW, which (as I understand it) people got really sick of drafting. INNx3 followed up M12. Even M13, which gets a lot of props for being a really good core set experience and generally is considered to be a great format, came right after AVRx3. In other words, if you're given a good set after a bad set, you're likely to remember the good set as being even better than good.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Rise of the Eldrazi is still my favorite draft set. I keep all my basic lands for drafting in my original Rise of the Eldrazi fat pack box.
divisionbyzorro
Member
I started playing Magic when the current format was DII. The only prior set that I've played on MTGO that I would like to draft again is Llorwyn. *shrug*
EDIT: Actually, TPF was pretty fun, but more in a "This is kinda fun to dick around with" kind of way than anything else.
EDIT: Actually, TPF was pretty fun, but more in a "This is kinda fun to dick around with" kind of way than anything else.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";147601964]Rise of the Eldrazi is still my favorite draft set. I keep all my basic lands for drafting in my original Rise of the Eldrazi fat pack box.[/QUOTE]
The one valid critique of the format is that drafting's a bit on-rails once you know your archetype. The gameplay, however, is fantastic.
ZZW was definitely better than ZZZ because it slowed the format down. ZZZ had the "hearthstone" problem of "Here's an 8cc Bomb! What's the best way to play it? JAM IT IN AN AGGRO DECK!"
The one valid critique of the format is that drafting's a bit on-rails once you know your archetype. The gameplay, however, is fantastic.
ZZW was definitely better than ZZZ because it slowed the format down. ZZZ had the "hearthstone" problem of "Here's an 8cc Bomb! What's the best way to play it? JAM IT IN AN AGGRO DECK!"
"God's Beard!"
Member
That, and Drana.
I'm pretty sure I've drafted and built sealed Ravnica block decks over a hundred times. Ravnica is god tier. This is undisputable fact.It's not like people keep drafting formats in any serious volume after they get replaced. The experience people get with it right now is pretty much what they're gonna get.
Triple Eldrazi is pretty bad. Sorry. Rather prefer triple Zendikar to be honest. :3
divisionbyzorro
Member
I'm pretty sure I've drafted and built sealed Ravnica block decks over a hundred times. Ravnica is god tier. This is undisputable fact.
I've never had the pleasure of playing OG Ravnica. It's one of the items on my Magic to-do list.
I wish I had less back luck in opening sealed pools, because attending all the PTQs was a blast. My friends made top eight though with various archetypes.
Meanwhile, 5xRoE was pretty much bullshit since you had to face Dranas and other 20 plus something bombs with little removal in the set.
"God's Beard!"
Member
And you guys think I'm weird.
Joe Molotov
Member
I'm pumped for midnight FRF prerelease. Can't wait to make a lot of stupid decisions due to lack of sleep.
blindrocket
Member
I meant to buy the Steve Argyle art but never got around to it.
Could one of you find a seller for me? I'd like a play set of course...
Or could this show up in MM2?
divisionbyzorro
Member
I'm still somewhat shocked that Modern Masters 2015 has a $10/pack price tag.
Lets WotC capture more of the profit. They mark up that high anyway.
I need to keep reminding myself of that (and that they'll probably end up going for more than that) when I see the cost of the base entry for GP Vegas (75$). Which I'm probably booking tickets for tonight. Hooray!
divisionbyzorro
Member
Oh I know it makes sense. It just feels crazy.
SigmasonicX
Member
What's wrong with Frontier Siege? It adds four mana each turn.
In limited? It's a do-nothing.
divisionbyzorro
Member
The green siege does jack shit in limited. The other sieges are great if the game goes long.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Top 5 FRF Uncommons for Limited:
- Hero's Blade
- Qarthi High Priest
- Lightform
- Pyrotechnics
- Valorous Stance
divisionbyzorro
Member
I don't envy Matt Tabak's job. From the comprehensive rules change bulletin:
Matt Tabak said:
charlequin
Banned
I don't care all that much about average players' opinions when dedicated long-term players with comprehensive knowledge of draft formats are available, just like I don't generally care about average players' opinions on video game of the year when there are etc. etc. etc.
The last figure I saw Rosewater cite was nine years, which is insane as a retention rate but would suggest there's a pretty big chunk of people who were around five years ago for ROE, and a ton three and a half years ago for Innistrad.
I think you're over-rating spikiness a bit here. OTJ is the spikiest draft format ever and it usually doesn't rank all that high in these things because it makes 99% of players' heads explode. (It's also super color-imbalanced, as all the flashback draft review articles this week will attest.) LLM and TSP are more popular but still spikey enough to be a bit of a hindrance.
It's true that season depth is valued, but... it should be? I mean, draft formats are semi-randomized puzzles that get repeated over and over; when they're deep, that's better for dedicated players (who don't get bored) and for people dipping their toes in (because the dedicated players aren't just crushing with autopilot archetypes every time.)
There are more factors that go in, too: speed range (ZEN and M12 are downplayed because only fast aggro is viable), variety of archetypes (ISD was the first really successful format at creating ten two-color archetypes), color balance (ONS is just stupid with how lopsided red and black are), common bombs (see ONS again for Sparksmith), overall matchup matrix (all the cube formats that devolve into dominant-strategy-vs-hate-strategy), etc.
Yeah, ZZZ wasn't shitty on the level of AVR-shitty since individual games could still be fun, but it was a super one-note format.
divisionbyzorro
Member
I don't care all that much about average players' opinions when dedicated long-term players with comprehensive knowledge of draft formats are available, just like I don't generally care about average players' opinions on video game of the year when there are etc. etc. etc.
I think you're over-rating spikiness a bit here. OTJ is the spikiest draft format ever and it usually doesn't rank all that high in these things because it makes 99% of players' heads explode. (It's also super color-imbalanced, as all the flashback draft review articles this week will attest.) LLM and TSP are more popular but still spikey enough to be a bit of a hindrance.
It's true that season depth is valued, but... it should be? I mean, draft formats are semi-randomized puzzles that get repeated over and over; when they're deep, that's better for dedicated players (who don't get bored) and for people dipping their toes in (because the dedicated players aren't just crushing with autopilot archetypes every time.)
There are more factors that go in, too: speed range (ZEN and M12 are downplayed because only fast aggro is viable), variety of archetypes (ISD was the first really successful format at creating ten two-color archetypes), color balance (ONS is just stupid with how lopsided red and black are), common bombs (see ONS again for Sparksmith), overall matchup matrix (all the cube formats that devolve into dominant-strategy-vs-hate-strategy), etc.
Video games are even more subjective than Magic draft formats though...
But sure - I simply bring up the "average" player because having lively debates about what formats are the "best" may be a fun nostalgia trip, but it isn't particularly useful for people who haven't been there before and didn't ride the wave the first time around. You can talk all you want about how Innistrad was the best format ever, but that doesn't do much good for the player who wasn't there when it was out. If you're having a draft party and you invite your new Magic friend over to draft the box of Innistrad you've been saving up, there's a good chance they just get stomped and walk away with a bad experience. Draft formats have a significant amount of "you had to be there" involved in their measure of goodness. One of the reasons Theros block was disliked was because people got tired of voltron and Ordeal and Gray Merchant decks real quickly - when people figured out how it worked, the drafts ended up going the same way most of the time. But two years from now, when Theros hits the MTGO flashback drafts and newer players draft it for the first time, I think that they'll be more likely to have a positive impression than someone who drafts Innistrad for the first time. The first time you won by making a giant monster in Theros, it was sweet - it'll be the same for them too.
I guess I'm just saying that there are many, many reasons to call a draft environment good or bad, and generally the factor that I hear talked about more than anything in the "best of all time" discussions is format depth. That factor is meaningless to a player who comes along later and is only going to get to draft it a handful of times at most.
That doesn't mean that I don't think that ROE and INN are good formats - quite the contrary. It just means that I think it's impossible for me to have the same appreciation for them as a more established player because I wasn't there at the time and didn't experience the full format lifecycle.
That's completely absurd. I don't know where I got the figure I had before (it was just stuck in my head from somewhere); 9 years seems ridiculous though. Kind of amazing if it's actually true though.
SigmasonicX
Member
Can we please stop using one-letter abbreviations for sets?
? That's standard for draft formats.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I really wish I had gotten to draft ROE more. Back when I was in college spring sets were always so inopportunely timed, we only got to do it a couple times.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I completely buy it. I'm coming up on nine years now (and holy shit is that a realization) and most of my friends I play with are the same. Hell, half of my real life friends now are people who I met playing Magic in college like five years ago, and we still meet up weekly to play
"God's Beard!"
Member
Everything is better than triple Ice Age or The Dark.
charlequin
Banned
Video games are even more subjective than Magic draft formats though...
I mean, I guess, but it's not like I'm going to take someone seriously if we're talking about The Canon and they say Super Metroid is a piece of crap.
That's probably about equally true if I buy a box of the latest set. If they don't know how to draft, period, they'll probably not do that well. If they understand the basics, it's not hard to give the tl;dr on format archetypes before we start. I've sat down with people, given them a three-sentence explanation about how Walls And Big Stuff Are Good, and had them do swimmingly at ROE x 3.
I just don't find it worthwhile judging a format by whether it has some superficial flash the first time you play it when we could judge it by how it plays over time instead. (Same goes for Standard formats, really.)
That said, I don't actually hate Theros as a draft format -- it's a bit dull, but it's still a lot more polished than many older formats and it makes some interesting variations
That's certainly fair. I wish MTGO would be more aggressive with making flashback formats available for decent lengths of time -- I constantly wish I could show new people what ROE was like but boxes are like $800 purely on the back of the draft format, so it would be great if they'd do "Eldrazi Easter" or whatever and put it on for all of August.
It's definitely dependent on how they measure an active player, but it doesn't seem totally wild to me. Myself, I've been playing since 1994 (so, jeez, twenty years since I started) and I think the last gap where there were years I didn't buy anything was 1999 - 2003 or so. My infrequent-but-steady Commander group's going on five years, after doing draft get-togethers for a couple years before that. I figure most people who make it past three years or so only really quit over pretty significant life changes.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Like, holy shit, when I started Magic felt like this huge game with this rich history stretching out behind me
And now I've been playing for almost half of its lifespan
And now I've been playing for almost half of its lifespan
charlequin
Banned
There are now more blocks after Mirrodin than before it. :S
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Oh huh, I didn't even notice it was exactly ten years between Asian themed blocks
Got in with Revised.
Etrian Oddity
Member
gtfo
- Status
Similar threads
- Locked