Support NeoGAF

[Angry Grimace]

I don't disagree with this though was it Maro who pushed Tribute? Born of the Gods wasn't his set. I feel like I remember him defending it but then again he defends EVERYTHING, regardless of how obviously bad it is to the eyes of any experienced player

I remember Maro devoting a podcast to explaining why Theros block couldn't be like Mirrodin block and I listened to it but honestly I don't remember much of it. I feel like I thought his explanation(s) leaned on the bullshit side and kind of rejected it. Do you remember his rationale(s)?

Its his job to defend shit like Tribute. I mean he very very quickly acknowledged it was shit once Born wasn't the new set, but at the time Born came out its not like he could openly admit it was lazy ass shit.

I fully expect his "state of design" to have something similar about Megamorph not being functionally different enough from morph (and that there was probably more design space for Manifest)

 

[SigmasonicX]

Part of the problem was that Bestow was so complex Wizards assumed any more complexity would blow people's minds, so they played things absurdly safe and boring.

And to be fair, it did confuse the hell out of even pro players during spoilers.

 

[Angry Grimace]

His rationale was basically that enchantments don't have the design space that artifacts do, they already cross over too much on artifacts, and to do what an enchantment block would need would be to upend some of the basic fundamentals of magic that have existed since year dot.

My issue with that is that that is exactly what they did with artifacts. Enchantments are IN such a bad design space currently because Maro pushed artifacts into that area. Equipment and coloured artifacts in particular basically makes enchantments a pointless concept, and nowadays they seem too scared to actually take a risk and do something new with them. They pushed artifacts too far at the cost of enchantments, and seem completely unable to acknowledge the complete screw up they made by doing that in terms of flavour and card type.

(The argument he keeps presenting is that artifacts shouldn't do global effects, that should be what enchantments do - but they can't make that change because too many old cards work like that. Which is the biggest pile of crap ever, given that they have routinely redefined what colours and card types mean to this day, often completely contrary to what has gone before).

Continuous artifacts are just colorless enchantments. I really think they should have just stuck with Equipment and Mono artifacts.

(I can't figure out how Garfield ever thought the Poly, Mono, Continuous thing made any goddamn sense vs. just saying ("XX, Tap:")

 

[kirblar]

I don't disagree with this though was it Maro who pushed Tribute? Born of the Gods wasn't his set. I feel like I remember him defending it but then again he defends EVERYTHING, regardless of how obviously bad it is to the eyes of any experienced player

I remember Maro devoting a podcast to explaining why Theros block couldn't be like Mirrodin block and I listened to it but honestly I don't remember much of it. I feel like I thought his explanation(s) leaned on the bullshit side and kind of rejected it. Do you remember his rationale(s)?

It was definitely MaRo who made the final call to do tribute in set 2 and do monstrosity in set 3, based on what he's said. He was super-optimistic about it when the set was about to launch doing his whole "just play with it first" thing.

Turns out, according to marketing feedback, players did not like it. Who could have guessed that a mechanic that makes the card worse would do poorly?

 

[Firemind]

Enough people to get them to make the change (starting with Innistrad?) and thank them once they did it on social media. I didn't start drafting until M15, so I don't care either way.

From what? Surveys? Social media? Return of Ravnica became an unmitigated disaster when Dragon's Maze came out. And Dark Ascension didn't do any favours for Innistrad. There's no evidence to support that a reverse draft order makes for a better drafting experience.

 

[Angry Grimace]

It was definitely MaRo who made the final call to do tribute in set 2 and do monstrosity in set 3, based on what he's said. He was super-optimistic about it when the set was about to launch doing his whole "just play with it first" thing.

Turns out, according to marketing feedback, players did not like it. Who could have guessed that a mechanic that makes the card worse would do poorly?

There was like one card that ever had an interesting decision on Tribute (Fanatic of Xenagos).

 

[kirblar]

There was like one card that ever had an interesting decision on Tribute (Fanatic of Xenagos).

Because (according to development) they had to get the two choices as close as humanly possible to make the card even playable.

Silo'd block design/development has been a real problem (see: the massive disconnect between RTR, GTC, and DGM) - hopefully the new structure helps to smooth it out.

 

[Toxi]

I still have no idea how the hell Tribute was designed for a set released in 2014.

It goes against every rule the Magic design team has learned since the beginning of the game. It's a drawback mechanic (Shut up MaRo, it's a drawback mechanic) that lets the opponent have control over your stuff and always gives the player the worst of two options. Every single one of those has been repeatedly noted by the card designers to not be very well-received by players.

It's almost as ridiculous as Sweep (LOL Sweep).

 

[SigmasonicX]

From what? Surveys? Social media? Return of Ravnica became an unmitigated disaster when Dragon's Maze came out. And Dark Ascension didn't do any favours for Innistrad. There's no evidence to support that a reverse draft order makes for a better drafting experience.

I don't know, I haven't experienced the former draft order, but it does feel more interesting to get the newer cards first.

 

[Jhriad]

Not everyone can win the jackpot and cracking packs is just that. Otherwise you'd get into a situation like Fate Reforged where almost everyone opens a bomb of some kind.

Fate wasn't made bomb-y by moving the land to the land slot. It was made that way because the differential between the rare slot's power level and the other two slots was wider than a lot of experienced/high skill players find enjoyable and understandably so. Set balance was out of whack regardless of where the lands ended up. I imagine the bomb-y nature of the set was at least partially intended to appeal to more casual players of draft. All of that said I'm not sure I really care all that much about where the land goes but I'm not really seeing any good arguments against changing it if some sizable section of the player base apparently does care enough to desire a change. Especially since it shouldn't be hard to balance sets and distribution of lands in the design process with this setup in mind.

 

[kirblar]

It has a serious issue in that it's a set full of powerful mono-colored cards at rare (with a few hybrid activations) that's feeding into a gold set, where the most powerful cards are mostly 3-colored.

 

[kirblar]

Part of the problem was that Bestow was so complex Wizards assumed any more complexity would blow people's minds, so they played things absurdly safe and boring.

Also, the flavor was a miss, which is strange since Jenna Helland was working on it and she nailed the flavor aspect of Innistrad.

Here's the issue with doing a top-down Greek world as opposed to a Horror one- There are many different variants and takes on different horror tropes. There's only one Greek Mythology. It's incredibly restrictive and you end up not being able to do your own thing.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I don't know, I haven't experienced the former draft order, but it does feel more interesting to get the newer cards first.

I always thougth JOU-BNG-THS was weird because sometimes you'd get a God in pack one and you'd feel obligated to try and force it and it rarely turned out well. That seems like it wouldn't happen that often, but it kind of did. It was weird.

Here's the issue with doing a top-down Greek world as opposed to a Horror one- There are many different variants and takes on different horror tropes. There's only one Greek Mythology. It's incredibly restrictive and you end up not being able to do your own thing.

For reasons it bugs me that they'll do Greek folklore rip-off world and then say they can't do Rabiah anymore because its a rip-off world of Arabian folklore.

 

[The Technomancer]

For reasons it bugs me that they'll do Greek folklore rip-off world and then say they can't do Rabiah anymore because its a rip-off world of Arabian folklore.

They won't do Rabiah because its full of explicit references like Aladdin and Shaherazad. They could do an Arabian themed set

 

[Angry Grimace]

They won't do Rabiah because its full of explicit references like Aladdin and Shaherazad. They could do an Arabian themed set

They can just not use those and not call it Baghdad. Whether its consistent with Arabian Nights from 1994 is kind of unimportant.

 

[red13th]

I'd love if they did an Arabian Nights 2 without the real world references.

 

[Crocodile]

From what? Surveys? Social media? Return of Ravnica became an unmitigated disaster when Dragon's Maze came out. And Dark Ascension didn't do any favours for Innistrad. There's no evidence to support that a reverse draft order makes for a better drafting experience.

I've drafted before and after the change and most people I interacted with (IRL or online) loved the change when it happened. It wasn't the new draft structures fault that DKA and DGM were mostly bad sets. The point is that it makes the new cards be more influential as the fact that you get them early, especially if the cards are "build arounds", means they have a bigger influence in how your draft is guided. It causes the format to change more before and after the addition of the new set and everybody can get behind format shake-ups after awhile. Of course if the newer set is worse than the older set, it has a larger tendency to make the format worse.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Just call it Agrabah or whatever fake-Baghdad is. Nobody will care.

Reprint Juzam Djinn (fuck the RL) and laugh when it doesn't get played.

 

[blindrocket]

Liliana otV is apparently priced higher than Jace the Mindsculptor according to MTGgoldfish

My princess...

 

[Crocodile]

THE FINAL DRAGON REVEALED

Dragons in Dragons of Tarkir

Category 1: The common Dragon (NOTE: This got bumped up to uncommon during Development.)

Category 2: Uncommon gold cycle

Category 3: Uncommon monocolored cycle

Category 4: Rare gold cycle

Category 5: Rare monocolored cycle

Category 6: Mythic rare legendary gold cycle

Category 7: Uncommon mana stones (NOTE: Do these turn into Dragons? Hmmmm....)

Category 8: Cards that care about Dragons


becomes


Dragons in Dragons of Tarkir - REVEALED

Category 1: Scion of Ugin

Category 2: Enduring Scalelord, Cunning Breezedancer, Ruthless Deathfang, Swift Warkite and Savage Ventmaw.

Category 3: Megamorph cycle (Sheildhide, Belltoll, Acid-Spewer, Stromwing and Herdchaser Dragon)

Category 4: Arashin Sovergin, Pristine Skywise, Necromaster Dragon, Boltwing Marauder and Harbinger of the Hunt.

Category 5: Regent Cycle (Sunscorch, Icefall, Deathbringer, Thunderbreak and Foe-Razer Regent)

Category 6: The Dragonlords (Dromoka, Ojutai, Silumgar, Kolaghan and Atarka)

Category 7: Monument Cycle

Category 8: Cards that care about Dragons

 

[kirblar]

The art on Icefall Regent is terrible. It's a Lugia.

 

[red13th]

Liliana otV is apparently priced higher than Jace the Mindsculptor according to MTGgoldfish

My princess...

I complained about that a few days ago! I think she went up like 30 dollars in two months.

 

[Angry Grimace]

blue dragon is suprisingly decent

 

[keeblerdrow]

So, how many playable dragons did we really get? 3 or 4?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Frost Titan dargon

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Frost Titan dargon

More like Dungeon Geists.

 

[Joe Molotov]

Should have had hexproof.

 

[Toxi]

The art on Icefall Regent is terrible. It's a Lugia.

I don't see how it resembles Lugia.

Should have had hexproof.

I'm glad it doesn't.

 

["God's Beard!"]

So there was a Sultai Midrange list that was extremely similar to mine(Whisperwood and Torrent Elemental in the 5-drop slot), but where I shaved on Whip and Hornet Queen, he cut them entirely for Rakshasa Deathdealers. He also runs thoughtseize and treasure cruise to replace the lost card advantage.

He got 13th place so I think it's worth looking at.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deckdatabase/displaydeck.php?DeckID=80844

Outside the Deathdealers his creature count is the exact numbers I use, but he has an odd removal package. I don't know if Treasure Cruise is worth cutting on Murderous Cuts for, but I can definitely see shaving a Bile Blight if you're maindecking Thoughtseize. The sideboard package is radically different than mine, however. No sweepers and some funky cards so he probably scoops to devotion even harder than my build. The pilot said he was pretty lucky to dodge it all tournament.

 

[OnPoint]

More like Dungeon Geists.

Easily a mix of the two

 

[manipulate]

I don't see how it resembles Lugia.

Seriously?


Set continues to look boring

 

["God's Beard!"]

So since the last questionnaire was pretty popular, here's another one since we're wrapping up the current format:

What Standard deck are you currently playing?
Sultai Midrange

Why?
I'm attracted to any graveyard synergies that are competitive, so the whip decks are a natural fit. Blue gets a little more synergy than white, so I threw away the extra power of abzan for the general unity of playing Sultai cards. Also, it's better at fueling Delve, which is by far my favorite mechanic in Standard.

What are your deck's strengths?
It's really good at out-grinding other midrange and control decks, and really good at blocking aggro decks. It's a moderate favorite against two of the most popular decks in the format, Abzan Control and R/W Aggro. I can also use the sideboard to shift up into control and get even grinder in the matchups where that matters.

What are your deck's weaknesses?
It loses pretty hard to any sort of engine deck, like Constellation or Devotion. I have a good variety of removal available in the 75, but I'm not a true control deck and can't keep it up forever. I'm going to lose to consistent 2 for 1s or nykthos insanity if the game goes long, and my deck isn't good at shifting down and attacking. Outside of that, you can get some awkward opening hands which means you mulligan slightly above average since the curve is so high.

What are you looking forward to with the new format?
Cheaper playables and consistency-enablers are always welcome.

How much are you enjoying the current format?
I do miss my Sphinx's Revelations, but I am enjoying the format a lot. I wish I didn't have to play green for a good graveyard deck, but I'll take it. I love that the top decks change every week, it's a deck builder's paradise.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Sorcery =/

 

[keeblerdrow]

Sorcery =/

I wanna do this for so so much mana right before I Dark Deal them.

 

[Yeef]

 

["God's Beard!"]

Sorcery =/

I am going to deck myself.

 

[Toxi]

Seriously?

Seriously. It doesn't have the big wing hands, the beak, the dark blue accents, the general rounded aesthetic... Other than being a big white flying animal, I don't see any Lugia resemblance.

 

[Yeef]

 

[Exokell]

you dont need to pay for mana cost in order to play those cards? If you need to this card is terrible.

 

[Yeef]

you dont need to pay for mana cost in order to play those cards? If you need to this card is terrible.

You do. This card is great. It gives tons of card advantage, which is something red doesn't typically get a lot of.

 

[keeblerdrow]

you dont need to pay for mana cost in order to play those cards? If you need to this card is terrible.

Unless you're in GR Ramp and you have mana for daaaaaaaays.

 

[Yeef]

I think you guys are misreading the until the end of your next turn part.

 

[Zocano]

I think you guys are misreading the until the end of your next turn part.

Completely looked over that... pretty alright, I suppose.

 

[Yeef]

I'm imagining a janky casual Temur deck that uses Prophet of Kruphix to get the maximum value out of Commune with Lava.

 

[SigmasonicX]

I think you guys are misreading the until the end of your next turn part.

Oh damn, didn't notice that part. So, even if you just set X to 2, it's basically Inspiration / Weave Fate. This is really good!

EDIT: Also, there's this card:

EDIT:

D=
NOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO TURTLE MCDURDLE WHYYYYYYYYYY

Also,

Vial of Dragonfire is as mediocre but useful in limited as expected.

 

[GregLombardi]

Umm. This card is quite powerful.

 

[kirblar]

Umm. This card is quite powerful.

R/G Devotion may want it.

 

[y2dvd]

Eh I think it'll be too slow. You're not going to play this early. Late game, you'll get one turn to play whatever card, but I'm inclined to believe you'll get more card value out of Outpost Siege. G/R might as well run Crater's Claw. Anything R/U might as well run Dig Through Time.

 

[ElyrionX]

Lol I didn't know Meandering Towershell was called Turtle Mcdurdle. That's hilarious hahaha.

 

[The Technomancer]

Man Silumgar is a real dick