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[The Technomancer]

I don't quite buy that AVR sold so well only on the back of pre-orders and hype. Surely Wizards breaks their sales data down and accounts for that sort of thing. I think people really liked angels and Miracles made a huge splash, for better or for worse, that had people talking

 

[kirblar]

Flickering broke their "repetitive effects" rules pretty hard when pushed as a theme. "Play Bounce Bird." "Flicker Bounce Brd." "Flicker Again." "Oops, you're dead."

I don't expect them to ever push it like that again, and we've actually seen almost no recent effects of that type, leading one to wonder if it's actually just something we're not going to see very often (or at all) on targeted effects again. Exemplars has it, but it only does it to itself.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

On the flip side, Nephalia Smuggler, Ghostly Flicker, and Cloudshift are sweet, sweet cards in my cube, so I'm glad they printed them I guess.

EDIT: On the other flip side, Deadeye Navigator might be the most hated card in EDH, so there's that too. I personally never get tired of blinking Prime Speaker Zegana and Palinchron because I'm the worst.

 

[OnPoint]

Flickering broke their "repetitive effects" rules pretty hard when pushed as a theme. "Play Bounce Bird." "Flicker Bounce Brd." "Flicker Again." "Oops, you're dead."

I don't expect them to ever push it like that again, and we've actually seen almost no recent effects of that type, leading one to wonder if it's actually just something we're not going to see very often (or at all) on targeted effects again. Exemplars has it, but it only does it to itself.

This makes me sad as Flickering is one of my absolute favorite mechanics.

 

[Toxi]

http://killingagoldfish.blogspot.com/2015/03/kill-reviews-innistrad-block.html

Well that was fast. I guess he really wanted to get his love of Innistrad and his hatred of Avacyn out there.

Surprised he didn't even mention double-faced cards. Hope that's an addendum.

EDIT: On the other flip side, Deadeye Navigator might be the most hated card in EDH, so there's that too. I personally never get tired of blinking Prime Speaker Zegana and Palinchron because I'm the worst.

I hate you. :-(

 

[charlequin]

Well that was fast. I guess he really wanted to get his love of Innistrad and his hatred of Avacyn out there.

I don't always agree with Jesse's reviews, but that bit on AVR is spot-on. Rosewater claiming with a straight face that Avacyn Restored was a success on pure sales numbers while ignoring the fact that it's one of the worst sets of all time (maybe the single worst when adjusted for design inflation) was galling. It makes me want to write in and see if they've admitted to themselves yet that it was awful.

Surprised he didn't even mention double-faced cards.

He didn't talk about most of the mechanical stuff in ISD. DFCs are cool and all but they're actually not all that interesting from a design standpoint -- it's a hack to accomplish something that non-collectible games would just do with a second card you pull out of the box, and they were only controversial because people have weird ideas about what things are okay to do with a mechanic.

This makes me sad as Flickering is one of my absolute favorite mechanics.

I mean, black pepper's one of my favorite spices, but if I make a dish and accidentally dump an entire jar's worth in then I've gotta throw it away.

 

[OnPoint]

I mean, black pepper's one of my favorite spices, but if I make a dish and accidentally dump an entire jar's worth in then I've gotta throw it away.

Flickering Thragtusk for maximum value in my janky Rhox Faithmender lifegain deck was one of my favorite things ever.

Honestly, I don't think they did too much with the effect, and it barely effected Standard. Maybe it was a bitch in Limited but I don't see any evidence that flickering was a real problem in any other format. Resto was useful but it was far from format defining and that was the only tournament playable flicker effect I can think of in years.

 

[Toxi]

He didn't talk about most of the mechanical stuff in ISD. DFCs are cool and all but they're actually not all that interesting from a design standpoint -- it's a hack to accomplish something that non-collectible games would just do with a second card you pull out of the box, and they were only controversial because people have weird ideas about what things are okay to do with a mechanic.

Goldfish reviews aren't normally from a pure design standpoint though. They often consider other aspects of the set, from the art to simple gut impressions (like how Dark Ascension barely felt like it was actually "darker"). There's a lot to talk about in Innistrad beyond just how great the draft format was.

On a side note, can't say I agree with his suggestion to shift the ratios of colors.

 

[kirblar]

Flickering Thragtusk for maximum value in my janky Rhox Faithmender lifegain deck was one of my favorite things ever.

Honestly, I don't think they did too much with the effect, and it barely effected Standard. Maybe it was a bitch in Limited but I don't see any evidence that flickering was a real problem in any other format. Resto was useful but it was far from format defining and that was the only tournament playable flicker effect I can think of in years.

Resto Angel into Thraggy/Snappy definitely was a big deal. (Venser also did some work before Innistrad made him useless.) She was most definitely a format defining card.

MaRo's said they're never doing color ratio shifts again because it just messes up draft too much.

 

[The Technomancer]

Its weird that he didn't touch on the art, but then everyone agrees that the art direction in Innistrad was some of like, the best in the game's entire history yeah?

 

[Toxi]

Its weird that he didn't touch on the art, but then everyone agrees that the art direction in Innistrad was some of like, the best in the game's entire history yeah?

Judging by his previous Innistrad review, he wasn't a huge fan of the direction when the set was initially revealed. No idea how he views it now.

I agree it's some of the best in the game's history.

 

[charlequin]

Honestly, I don't think they did too much with the effect, and it barely effected Standard. Maybe it was a bitch in Limited but I don't see any evidence that flickering was a real problem in any other format.

When a mechanic contributes to the existence of the worst modern draft format ever and is pretty much irrelevant in every other format, that definitely goes down as a failure.

Goldfish reviews aren't normally from a pure design standpoint though.

They're pretty close! I can't recall a lot of situations where he picked out a specific mechanic unless there was something fundamentally awful about it (lol Cascade.)

 

[The Technomancer]

So like...how do really bad sets keep getting made? Just internal project management issues?

 

[OnPoint]

All this thread is doing right now is making me miss M12/Scars/Innistrad/M13 standard.

A lot.

 

[y2dvd]

On the flip side, Nephalia Smuggler, Ghostly Flicker, and Cloudshift are sweet, sweet cards in my cube, so I'm glad they printed them I guess.

EDIT: On the other flip side, Deadeye Navigator might be the most hated card in EDH, so there's that too. I personally never get tired of blinking Prime Speaker Zegana and Palinchron because I'm the worst.

The way I see it, Deadeye Navigator breaks stalemates that normally occurs in EDH so I'm fine with it! If you can, kill me now instead of 5 hours later.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

So like...how do really bad sets keep getting made? Just internal project management issues?

Because it's actually really hard to build a Magic set of even above-average quality and pump out four of them each year.

The way I see it, Deadeye Navigator breaks stalemates that normally occurs in EDH so I'm fine with it! If you can, kill me now instead of 5 hours later.

Winning the "honest" way is just so boring! The way I see it, the only card in my Prime Speaker deck that actually creates a bad play experience is Prophet of Kruphix. Not that I'm going to stop playing it, but I apologize (a little) when I do.

 

[Toxi]

So like...how do really bad sets keep getting made? Just internal project management issues?

• Ideas that look fun on paper but aren't fun in practice
• Overcompensating for previous design mistakes and making mistakes in the opposite direction
• Last minute changes like what happened to Skullclamp
• Giving players too much of a good thing, aka Maro's ice cream analogy
• Doing new things for the sake of doing them rather than having any real reason (Khans block structure comes to mind)
• However the fuck they thought Tribute was a good idea

The way I see it, Deadeye Navigator breaks stalemates that normally occurs in EDH so I'm fine with it! If you can, kill me now instead of 5 hours later.

There are plenty of ways to break stalemates that don't dodge removal and encourage playing with yourself.

Then again, there are people who think Prophet of Kruphix is a fun card...

 

[The Technomancer]

On another note, how do people feel about RTR block in general? Am I alone in not...really liking it? Like, people don't like Dragons Maze, I know that, but even the first two sets didn't do much for me

 

[Firemind]

The way I see it, Deadeye Navigator breaks stalemates that normally occurs in EDH so I'm fine with it! If you can, kill me now instead of 5 hours later.

Stalemates only happen if you're trying to be diplomatic. The way I see it, better to die in a blaze of glory than kissing arse to some pacifist.

 

[Toxi]

On another note, how do people feel about RTR block in general? Am I alone in not...really liking it? Like, people don't like Dragons Maze, I know that, but even the first two sets didn't do much for me

I don't like it either. Boring sets filled with boring efficient cards. The best thing I can say about it is that I like is the number of cool EDH cards from the block, but even that is soured by shit like Sylvan Primordial.

Cipher is one of the worst implementations of a potentially interesting mechanic I've ever seen.

 

[WanderingWind]

RTR was one of the best blocks in Magic's history. Don't make me pull out my dueling glove, suhr.

 

[OnPoint]

RTR was one of the best blocks in Magic's history. Don't make me pull out my dueling glove, suhr.

RTR as a set? I liked it. RTR as a block? No way.

 

[Firemind]

RTR was one of the best blocks in Magic's history. Don't make me pull out my dueling glove, suhr.

It's no OG Ravnica. At least RTR gave us our first izzet walker, even if it's awful. Like, I don't know why it's in the legacy cube. Or Chandra Nalaar for that matter.

 

["God's Beard!"]

http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/throwback-draft-guide-rise-of-the-eldrazi/

Also, Gideon Jura is the Wingmate Roc of the format, mate. Drana is a chump.


I like to draft kiln fiends and distortion strikes with the sole purpose of trolling people who like roe.

Gideon isnt a creature. That's like saying wingmate roc is a chump because sorin is better.

I dont think ive ever seen someone win a draft with kiln fiends lol. The troll is real. Counterburn is a fun archetype when you get four mnemonic walls heheheheh

Anyway, that guide seems fine. Im in the middle of another draft right now with my favorite archetype UG ramp and just took out uw levelers so I'm reinforcing the guide's hierarchy lol

 

[divisionbyzorro]

It's no OG Ravnica. At least RTR gave us our first izzet walker, even if it's awful. Like, I don't know why it's in the legacy cube. Or Chandra Nalaar for that matter.

When the cube used to support Upheaval, it made sense to twiddle your mana rocks before picking everything up.

I also want to emphasize that I just said the phrase "twiddle your mana rocks."

 

[bigkrev]

On another note, how do people feel about RTR block in general? Am I alone in not...really liking it? Like, people don't like Dragons Maze, I know that, but even the first two sets didn't do much for me

Loved RTR, hated the block. In hindsight, I really did like Gatecrash limited, but I LOVED RTR. The less said about Dragon's Maze, the better

 

[Crocodile]

Flickering broke their "repetitive effects" rules pretty hard when pushed as a theme. "Play Bounce Bird." "Flicker Bounce Brd." "Flicker Again." "Oops, you're dead."

I don't expect them to ever push it like that again, and we've actually seen almost no recent effects of that type, leading one to wonder if it's actually just something we're not going to see very often (or at all) on targeted effects again. Exemplars has it, but it only does it to itself.

Sam Stoddard has said on multiple occasions that they toned flickering down recently so that it wouldn't put any constraints on what they could print with Morph and Megamorph cards. I assume when all of Khans Block rotates out of Standard that flickering will ramp up gradually.

When a mechanic contributes to the existence of the worst modern draft format ever and is pretty much irrelevant in every other format, that definitely goes down as a failure.

It's not flickering's fault that AVR had like no removal and the mechanic has been revelant in Standard + Modern (hello Restoration Angel) and is pretty important in Cube too (Brago, Venser, Parallaz Wave, etc.)

On another note, how do people feel about RTR block in general? Am I alone in not...really liking it? Like, people don't like Dragons Maze, I know that, but even the first two sets didn't do much for me

RTR was an awesome set. Gatecrash and especially Dragon's Maze were pretty big disappointments IMO.

• Ideas that look fun on paper but aren't fun in practice
• Overcompensating for previous design mistakes and making mistakes in the opposite direction
• Last minute changes like what happened to Skullclamp
• Giving players too much of a good thing, aka Maro's ice cream analogy
• Doing new things for the sake of doing them rather than having any real reason (Khans block structure comes to mind)
• However the fuck they thought Tribute was a good idea

Trying a unique new draft structure is just as good a reason to design a block in a specific way as anything else. I guess you haven't been liking Khans limited?

 

[kirblar]

On another note, how do people feel about RTR block in general? Am I alone in not...really liking it? Like, people don't like Dragons Maze, I know that, but even the first two sets didn't do much for me

RTR was great, block was a mess.

KTK Block structure is fine, it was super-low-hanging fruit that I'm glad we got to see once before the new structure hit.

 

["God's Beard!"]

RTR was medium as a draft format, and DGM was comically miserable, but Gatecrash was super fun even if a bit degenerate. Super explosive cards.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I really liked RTR draft. Gatecrash was fine, but not amazing (although I don't think I've ever been as happy as when I got the perfect Simic curve in triple GTC draft). DGR was a steaming turd, and was followed up by another steaming turd of a core set draft. That was a miserable few months of drafting.

The only good part of DGR was that I got to crush Kenji in round 2 of an 8-4 live on his stream, drafting my pet deck of the format (Jeskai Flash). Have you ever played a match where your opponent just always had everything? That's what I did to the poor guy.

 

[kirblar]

I really liked RTR draft. Gatecrash was fine, but not amazing (although I don't think I've ever been as happy as when I got the perfect Simic curve in triple GTC draft). DGR was a steaming turd, and was followed up by another steaming turd of a core set draft. That was a miserable few months of drafting.

The only good part of DGR was that I got to crush Kenji in round 2 of an 8-4 live on his stream, drafting my pet deck of the format (Jeskai Flash). Have you ever played a match where your opponent just always had everything? That's what I did to the poor guy.

GTC -> Theros was....not a good streak of sets. (Theros was the best of them, though, and isn't actually bad.)

 

[red13th]

I don't think Ral Zarek is that bad, he looks okay. Just added him to my cube.

 

[The Technomancer]

What was wrong with GTC? I know people complained about it being too aggressive?

 

[Angry Grimace]

So what's the one card in DTK that you think is going to change Standard the most?

I'm guessing (seriously) Roast.

 

[y2dvd]

There are plenty of ways to break stalemates that don't dodge removal and encourage playing with yourself.

But I love playing with myself!

 

[kirblar]

What was wrong with GTC? I know people complained about it being too aggressive?

Like Zendikar it was an all-aggro, all-the-time format, and it did not play well with RTR/DGM because of that - hyperspeed and multicolor is not a good combination.

 

["God's Beard!"]

What was wrong with GTC? I know people complained about it being too aggressive?

Not everybody can play five bomber corps.

 

[OnPoint]

I don't think Ral Zarek is that bad, he looks okay. Just added him to my cube.

I always thought he was fun. I don't know why he gets such hate.

So what's the one card in DTK that you think is going to change Standard the most?

I'm guessing (seriously) Roast.

Depends I guess. If Narsett spawns a whole new control deck, I'd say her.

 

[Angry Grimace]

For control, it seems like the best card they're getting is Anticipate, but I honestly don't see how its all that amazing in Standard. People love these kind of Brainstorm/Ponder type effects, but its not nearly as good without something specific to dig for. Its like more Dig Through Time, except there's no net card advantage.

 

[charlequin]

So like...how do really bad sets keep getting made? Just internal project management issues?

There are basically three reasons:

• The set is run by a lead developer who's either inexperienced or just bad and therefore makes bad decisions about how to prioritize elements of the set
• The set is rushed because problems in design or development lead to time wasted on elements that don't pan out
• The set is built around a theme that is a fundamentally bad idea, which sets the design up for failure.

AVR is one of the worst sets in Modern because it hits a hat trick here.

RTR was great, block was a mess.

KTK Block structure is fine, it was super-low-hanging fruit that I'm glad we got to see once before the new structure hit.

I cosign both of these statements. (RTR is the best set in the block, GTC is a step down from RTR's radness overall though there are aspects I liked, and DGM is a CF and a half.)

GTC -> Theros was....not a good streak of sets. (Theros was the best of them, though, and isn't actually bad.)

Dat Lauer lead development.

 

["God's Beard!"]

For control, it seems like the best card they're getting is Anticipate, but I honestly don't see how its all that amazing in Standard. People love these kind of Brainstorm/Ponder type effects, but its not nearly as good without something specific to dig for. Its like more Dig Through Time, except there's no net card advantage.

Brad Nelson brought up the point that anticipate gives the control deck something relevant to do when your opponent passes instead of playing into counters. One of the better strategies for midrange decks was to prevent the control deck from enabling dig through time by only playing spells on key turns. Now if you pass they get to improve their hand while gaining one mana.

In terms of deckbuilding, it also means you can shave a land or two while filling up a hole in the 2-slot.

 

[kirblar]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";156590719]Brad Nelson brought up the point that anticipate gives the control deck something relevant to do when your opponent passes instead of playing into counters. One of the better strategies for midrange decks was to prevent the control deck from enabling dig through time by only playing spells on key turns. Now if you pass they get to improve their hand while gaining one mana.

In terms of deckbuilding, it also means you can shave a land or two while filling up a hole in the 2-slot.[/QUOTE]
Think Twice is a card I actively loathed having in Standard because of the "Play a Spell? Mana Leak. Don't play a spell? Think Twice." thing. (Not that Mana Leak is ok either, but the general gameplay pattern is obnoxious.)

 

[Angry Grimace]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";156590719]Brad Nelson brought up the point that anticipate gives the control deck something relevant to do when your opponent passes instead of playing into counters. One of the better strategies for midrange decks was to prevent the control deck from enabling dig through time by only playing spells on key turns. Now if you pass they get to improve their hand while gaining one mana.

In terms of deckbuilding, it also means you can shave a land or two while filling up a hole in the 2-slot.[/QUOTE]That's what we do with Dig Through Time now though. Doing it in the early game isn't necessarily all that exciting to me because I typically have a grip of cards then.

I think the biggest problem with Anticipate as a huge impact card is that I don't think control gets necessarily better. Display of Dominance fucks Control really hard and Anticipate just gives you better card selection, doesn't fuel Dig and is semi redundant in the Sultai version that already plays a 2 drop that fuels Dig.

 

[Firemind]

I always thought he was fun. I don't know why he gets such hate.

One time I ultimate'd him in a RTR draft and I got... one whole extra turn. Woo! Not to mention that Twiddle and Lightning Bolt aren't exactly super exciting abilities. All three abilities don't even synergize well either. Par for the course when it comes to Izzet cards of course.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I once won a game where a dude ultimate'd Ral Zarek and took 3 extra turns. He had nothing on board, nothing in hand and drew into three nothings on his extra turns.

 

[Firemind]

I once won a game where a dude ultimate'd Ral Zarek and took 3 extra turns.

LOL what a fucking useless walker. It's not Tibalt level, but we could have gotten a Niv-Mizzet walker instead.

Spoiler

It's nice to want things.

 

[OnPoint]

LOL what a fucking useless walker. It's not Tibalt level, but we could have gotten a Niv-Mizzet walker instead.

Spoiler

It's nice to want things.

You just got your dragon PW this decade. Slow your roll lol

 

[Firemind]

Ugin is no dragon. He's more like a ghost daddy. An Obi Wan to Sarkhan. What does he even do in Tarkir? Probably drink tea and eat crumpets with Sorin.

 

[Angry Grimace]

LOL what a fucking useless walker. It's not Tibalt level, but we could have gotten a Niv-Mizzet walker instead.

Spoiler

It's nice to want things.

Well Duck Faygo is a Vintage staple now.

 

["God's Beard!"]

LOL I just cast disaster radius revealing Pathrazer of Ulamog

Get bodied