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[ironmang]

Anybody going to the SCG invitational this weekend? Probably won't be deciding until Thursday whether or not I'm going. Would have greatly preferred to go to Columbus if it wasn't Modern... just can't get any success in that format at large tournaments.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I intended to add one Ojutai and Dromoka'a Command, but then I realized the command is basically irrelevant when you don't have creatures in your deck. I also had one Banishing Light, but I left it out in the end as it clashes with Ugin.

The opponent can only have four Downfalls. At some point you're going to be drowning in card advantage, so much that you can safely play a win condition or several without the Downfalls being very relevant. I mean, the point of the deck is to rebound Dig Through Time at some point. Whisperwood Elemental is annoying if it resolves, but that's why the counterspells are there. I actually want to find room for more counters. Probably Negate.

I just don't know what would make it any better than BUG or UB Control. Counterspells are funny because you get to tell your opponent to hit the bricks, but still, relying entirely on 3 mana counters, 5 mana board wipes and 4 mana permanents sounds dicey to me.

 

[charlequin]

New Judge promos, should put to rest the idea of a Damnation reprint in MM2 or anything else

That's just irritating. Damnation is the number one card they should be finding a way to mass reprint art this point.

 

[blindrocket]

That's just irritating. Damnation is the number one card they should be finding a way to mass reprint art this point.

Very irritating.

 

[ironmang]

The Wasteland promo seems out of place too. It already has TWO promos. They should have went with Rishadan Port or some other land with only 1 printing.

 

[charlequin]

The Wasteland promo seems out of place too. It already has TWO promos. They should have went with Rishadan Port or some other land with only 1 printing.

Well that one's because they'd already commissioned art for the Legacy Championships last year.

 

[Yeef]

Speaking of being a judge... Is anyone here a judge? If so, what is it like?

I'm a level 1 judge, though I haven't been one for very long (only a few months). Judging Regular REL events is fine, since I also get to play in them. Judging Competitive events is awful. Mainly because you have to spend all day watching other people play without being able to play yourself.

 

[ultron87]

So you can't tuck Commanders anymore, eh?

http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17560

That always did seem kind of vicious for everybody has fun social contract Commander-time. But I don't really have an informed viewpoint since the only time I've had fun playing Commander was borrowing someone's Animar deck, getting a nut draw and going off with Niv Mizzet 2, Prophet of Kruphix, and Temur Ascendancy after another guy had Living Deathed a billion things out his dredged up graveyard.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Sam pardee p2p2s a backup Mnemonic Wall over an Enclave Cryptologist and is now completely dead to me.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

So you can't tuck Commanders anymore, eh?

http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17560

That always did seem kind of vicious for everybody has fun social contract Commander-time. But I don't really have an informed viewpoint since the only time I've had fun playing Commander was borrowing someone's Animar deck, getting a nut draw and going off with Niv Mizzet 2, Prophet of Kruphix, and Temur Ascendancy after another guy had Living Deathed a billion things out his dredged up graveyard.

It's odd to change the rules so late into the game, but it makes a lot of sense. There wasn't much reason to leave "tucking" as a way to deal with commanders, considering how rare those effects were. It put a premium on very effects that weren't printed very often (Unravel the Aether, Chaos Warp, Hinder, etc), were disproportionately in certain colors, and created weird feel-bad moments. Now the rules are really simple - if the commander would leave the battlefield, you can put it into the Command Zone instead - period.

There's a risk that this makes certain commanders too good, but they can deal with that later. I think this will upset some people, but I think it's for the best long term.

 

[OnPoint]

Removing the tuck rule kind of sucks but it's kind of ok I guess. It's gonna make some commanders really, really annoying, but I did get Daretti tucked the other night and lost because of it.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Well I guess I can cut the Condemn when I finally get a Bitterblossom lol

 

[Crocodile]

It's odd to change the rules so late into the game, but it makes a lot of sense. There wasn't much reason to leave "tucking" as a way to deal with commanders, considering how rare those effects were. It put a premium on very effects that weren't printed very often (Unravel the Aether, Chaos Warp, Hinder, etc), were disproportionately in certain colors, and created weird feel-bad moments. Now the rules are really simple - if the commander would leave the battlefield, you can put it into the Command Zone instead - period.

There's a risk that this makes certain commanders too good, but they can deal with that later. I think this will upset some people, but I think it's for the best long term.

I mean that's the issue. Because some people can't handle being without their commander for a bit, others get to recur their combo engines unobstructed. It's not the end of days but it is SUPER annoying.

 

[Hero]

If your deck relies entirely on your commander then build a better deck.

 

[kirblar]

So you can't tuck Commanders anymore, eh?

http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17560

That always did seem kind of vicious for everybody has fun social contract Commander-time. But I don't really have an informed viewpoint since the only time I've had fun playing Commander was borrowing someone's Animar deck, getting a nut draw and going off with Niv Mizzet 2, Prophet of Kruphix, and Temur Ascendancy after another guy had Living Deathed a billion things out his dredged up graveyard.

This is very good for Standard set development. They had to stop using the mechanic on thing like Polymorphs (and use Exile instead) because of the format.

 

[acheron_xl]

It's odd to change the rules so late into the game, but it makes a lot of sense. There wasn't much reason to leave "tucking" as a way to deal with commanders, considering how rare those effects were. It put a premium on very effects that weren't printed very often (Unravel the Aether, Chaos Warp, Hinder, etc), were disproportionately in certain colors, and created weird feel-bad moments. Now the rules are really simple - if the commander would leave the battlefield, you can put it into the Command Zone instead - period.

There's a risk that this makes certain commanders too good, but they can deal with that later. I think this will upset some people, but I think it's for the best long term.

I can't disagree with any of this. Have to change about 30 decks, but oh well.

 

[Toxi]

So you can't tuck Commanders anymore, eh?

http://mtgcommander.net/Forum/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=17560

That always did seem kind of vicious for everybody has fun social contract Commander-time. But I don't really have an informed viewpoint since the only time I've had fun playing Commander was borrowing someone's Animar deck, getting a nut draw and going off with Niv Mizzet 2, Prophet of Kruphix, and Temur Ascendancy after another guy had Living Deathed a billion things out his dredged up graveyard.

On one hand I don't like seeing a rules change this big, but on the other tuck was pretty stupid. There's no reason something like Condemn or Hinder should be such an amazing removal spell compared to similar cards that just send the card to the graveyard, and tuck really punishes White and Red as colors because they have much more trouble getting back a general after a tuck.

Also, this will make certain staple removal spells less annoyingly common because now they're not obviously better than everything else.

EDIT: I see a lot of folks on various Magic sites complaining about how this makes certain commanders unstoppable because they can't remove them. It's like they forgot that most forms of removal are nerfed against commanders because they've become so dependent on tuck. They're playing a format that has always had rules that stop players from removing legendary creatures and suddenly complain when they're unable to remove legendary creatures.

 

[Etrian Oddity]

Is it odd that I refuse to run no Whip in my midrange Sultai? It's just so... cliched? I'm a bit of a contrarian.

The deck is pretty f'n successful, considering I don't have Thoughtseize or Hero's Downfall in it. (This is a price factor, though. I need HD soon.)

 

["God's Beard!"]

Is it odd that I refuse to run no Whip in my midrange Sultai? It's just so... cliched? I'm a bit of a contrarian.

The deck is pretty f'n successful, considering I don't have Thoughtseize or Hero's Downfall in it. (This is a price factor, though. I need HD soon.)

Not running whip isn't a problem, but your reasoning is lol

 

[Etrian Oddity]

Haha well to be fair it's not just to be a hipster. It's also because I delve like a motherfucker and I guess I don't see the point of using it.

Anyways correct me if I'm wrong, but didn't we have an official online thread? Or am I tripping

 

[WanderingWind]

This is the online thread. Many of us play online almost exclusively.

 

[ElyrionX]

It's odd to change the rules so late into the game, but it makes a lot of sense. There wasn't much reason to leave "tucking" as a way to deal with commanders, considering how rare those effects were. It put a premium on very effects that weren't printed very often (Unravel the Aether, Chaos Warp, Hinder, etc), were disproportionately in certain colors, and created weird feel-bad moments. Now the rules are really simple - if the commander would leave the battlefield, you can put it into the Command Zone instead - period.

There's a risk that this makes certain commanders too good, but they can deal with that later. I think this will upset some people, but I think it's for the best long term.

It's kind of annoying as tuck effects are sometimes the only way to deal with certain commanders and are especially good at evening the odds against decks that are clearly stronger than the the rest of what's on the table.

Just last week, I played in group of 4 where one guy played Maelstrom Wanderer and beat us three times in a row and built a massive board presence pretty consistently and as early as turn two and three in those games. There was no way our decks could compete. He lost the fourth game only because Maelstrom Wanderer got tucked early and he wasn't able to draw or tutor into it.

 

[charlequin]

My big two causes in EDH from the day I picked up the format were to legalize Bosh (and company) as generals, and remove the tuck exception for removal, so.... 🎉 🎉 🎉

This is very good for Standard set development. They had to stop using the mechanic on thing like Polymorphs (and use Exile instead) because of the format.

Also this. It's funny to me how the paranoid EDH people think R&D are constantly trying to screw then over when in fact the dumber rules in Commander have had restrictive effects on set design.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I mean that's the issue. Because some people can't handle being without their commander for a bit, others get to recur their combo engines unobstructed. It's not the end of days but it is SUPER annoying.

I mean, isn't that the entire point of Commander? The fact that you get to choose a card that you always have access to? The fact that the format is inherently unstable and broken and only "works" because of social contracts in playgroups is a completely different issue.

 

[WanderingWind]

WotC should only address commander balances in their official products. Designing cards to fit in a pool of nearly every card ever made, with rules they didn't design or have any control over and whose primary goal is to be as casual-broken as possible is madness. Let the EDH people worry about cultivating the ban and restricted list for their made-up format.

 

[Socat]

WotC should only address commander balances in their official products. Designing cards to fit in a pool of nearly every card ever made, with rules they didn't design or have any control over and whose primary goal is to be as casual-broken as possible is madness. Let the EDH people worry about cultivating the ban and restricted list for their made-up format.

Hence why I will never play EDH or build a deck for it. Too much ludicrous nonsense going on.

 

[OnPoint]

EDH is what you make of it. It's a casual, fun format that has the potential to be horrible, but is amazing with the right group of people.

 

[WanderingWind]

EDH is what you make of it. It's a casual, fun format that has the potential to be horrible, but is amazing with the right group of people.

I think it's a fine format, but I think it's just weird that WotC is worried about balancing the format with its core products. Obviously, they have to balance their precons, but other than that they should just leave it alone.

 

[OnPoint]

I think it's a fine format, but I think it's just weird that WotC is worried about balancing the format with its core products. Obviously, they have to balance their precons, but other than that they should just leave it alone.

I like that they inject things into the format via the precons. It's exciting. But I agree that they shouldn't bother considering EDH when designing non-EDH sets. The format will either correct itself or the Commander committee will make bans.

 

[WanderingWind]

Plus, how else am I going to get to play with all those sweet, sweet zombies? My rogue U/B zombie brew in modern notwithstanding it's either EDH or stare at the cards.

 

[Crocodile]

I mean, isn't that the entire point of Commander? The fact that you get to choose a card that you always have access to? The fact that the format is inherently unstable and broken and only "works" because of social contracts in playgroups is a completely different issue.

That kind of works when you have a small, stable group of people you only play EDH with (though I don't really like using "shame" as a balancing tool). It doesn't work so well when you play pick-up games with strangers or rotating groups (which is usually how I play the format). The format is obviously predicated on Commanders being hard to deal with but it was at least appreciated that they weren't impossible.

 

[Firemind]

I wonder if Secure the Wastes and Descent of the Dragons will take Jeskai Tokens over the top.

4 Battlefield Thaumaturge
4 Goblin Rabblemaster

4 Raise the Alarm
4 Hordeling Outburst
3 Secure the Wastes
3 Lightning Strike
4 Stoke the Flames
4 Treasure Cruise
3 Descent of the Dragons

4 Jeskai Ascendancy

23 lands

---

My Sarkhan list:

4 Llanowar Mystic
3 Sylvan Caryatid
4 Frost Walker
3 Courser of Kruphix
4 Thunderbreak Regent
2 Polukranos
2 Dragonlord Atarka

4 Crater's Claws
3 Roast

4 Sarkhan Unbroken

4 Temur Ascendancy

23 lands

 

[Matriox]

Honestly the rules change didn't bother me too much. I primarily play EDH with my friends throughout the week as my magic fix, it always seemed weird to me that the competitive edh formats didn't allow for tucks but the casual ones did. It makes Hinder and Spell Crumple worse, but ah well I've got a bunch of counters to replace it with.

 

[Firemind]

So Riftsweeper is unbanned?

Edit: Wait, there's a command zone now? How times have changed.

 

[The Technomancer]

So Riftsweeper is unbanned?

Edit: Wait, there's a command zone now? How times have changed.

That's been a thing for ages. IIRC aren't they using it in the official rules also? Isn't that where emblems go or something?

 

[ultron87]

Yeah, Command Zone is the "no, you seriously can't touch this" zone. So Commanders and Conspiracies and other nonsense go there.

 

[WanderingWind]

Yeah, Command Zone is the "no, you seriously can't touch this" zone. So Commanders and Conspiracies and other nonsense go there.

Like exile!

#MisthollowWasWrong

 

[The Technomancer]

One of the few things I agree with Rosewater unilaterally on is the slope of interacting further with the exile zone. The current smattering of cards that can either get themselves back or cast themselves from exile is as far as it should go, full stop

On the flip side, I think they're using "exile" a bit too much on removal these days. I get why, but I think its a patch

 

[Firemind]

That's been a thing for ages. IIRC aren't they using it in the official rules also? Isn't that where emblems go or something?

I've been playing EDH since before it became known as EDH. It was just called Highlander back then (there can be only one!) and generals/commanders didn't exist yet. I now only play it casually as I've always had, so I'm not really up to date to the current rules. I didn't play any Conspiracy either.

 

[OnPoint]

Like exile!

#MisthollowWasWrong

I like Misthollow but I miss the days when Exile wasn't Graveyard 2.0

 

[WanderingWind]

One of the few things I agree with Rosewater unilaterally on is the slope of interacting further with the exile zone. The current smattering of cards that can either get themselves back or cast themselves from exile is as far as it should go, full stop

On the flip side, I think they're using "exile" a bit too much on removal these days. I get why, but I think its a patch

I like Misthollow but I miss the days when Exile wasn't Graveyard 2.0

Agreed on all, save for Misthollow. I really think they never should have allowed anything to interact with exile. It's literally functionally the same as the graveyard now, except fewer cards interact with it. They really should just ban anything that messes with exile and keep that a hard and fast rule.

 

[OnPoint]

I just have an unhealthy love for Food Chain + Mishollow. Otherwise I agree entirely.

 

["God's Beard!"]

But Torrent Elemental is the best zombie in Standard.

 

[kirblar]

You can keep Torrent Elemental dead. You just have to make it stick in the GY.

It's definitely space you have to be super-careful in, but T.E. and Runic Repetition are just fine. (Repetition should have exiled itself, though.)

 

["God's Beard!"]

You can keep Torrent Elemental dead. You just have to make it stick in the GY.

God invented Delve so that Torrent Elemental could live. I've beaten a bunch of UB control decks where Torrent Elemental was the only real threat I played all game. The best is when you play a second one and murderous cut it in response to their removal to exile the other one and just play musical chairs with your infinite 3/5 fliers. I mean, the only real hope is like decking me with ashiok or something, but ashiok exiles my torrent elementals for me sometimes, too lol

 

[MjFrancis]

Is it odd that I refuse to run no Whip in my midrange Sultai? It's just so... cliched? I'm a bit of a contrarian.

The deck is pretty f'n successful, considering I don't have Thoughtseize or Hero's Downfall in it. (This is a price factor, though. I need HD soon.)

I found this example of a Whip-less Sultai and it seemed relatively solid:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9307&d=253419&f=ST

Haven't seen any lists like this before or since, though. I like Whisperwood Elemental + Treasure Cruise for card advantage over Abzan midrange.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I found this example of a Whip-less Sultai and it seemed relatively solid:

http://www.mtgtop8.com/event?e=9307&d=253419&f=ST

Haven't seen any lists like this before or since, though. I like Whisperwood Elemental + Treasure Cruise for card advantage over Abzan midrange.

Yeah, I brought up that deck after the event, his creature numbers are the exact same as mine except he has deathdealers and I have a whip package with hornet queen.

I wouldn't look too deep into it, though. The pilot was saying on reddit that he was siding in the whip in most matchups and was looking to main it again after the tournament.

Also, the new Sidisi is a huge incentive to play whip again.

Personally, I'm trying to decide if Undead Vizier is going to replace the Whisperwoods or if I need to increase the number of 5-drops. Whisperwood is insane, but I don't think the deck makes awesome use of it and it doesn't really need sweeper protection. It's basically Brood Tyrants 5-6.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I legitimately haven't played a Whip deck in probably 2 months. Granted, I'd say I play 3 or 4 times more matches on MODO than paper, and MODO is utterly infected with RDW at the moment (and its only going to get so. much. worse with Roast, although its still a reasonably bad tempo play for them to spend 2 sorcery speed mana on kill your dude)

 

["God's Beard!"]

I legitimately haven't played a Whip deck in probably 2 months. Granted, I'd say I play 3 or 4 times more matches on MODO than paper, and MODO is utterly infected with RDW at the moment (and its only going to get so. much. worse with Roast, although its still a reasonably bad tempo play for them to spend 2 sorcery speed mana on kill your dude)

I think one of the main reasons to play a Sultai Midrange deck over Sultai Control is having a better matchup against mono-red. You have the same removal in bile blight and downfall as control but you actually have efficient blockers instead of slow sweepers and low-impact planeswalkers.. Courser gains life and eats stokes and Sidisi is really annoying for the mono-red deck if they don't hold up lightning strike since it gums up their "can't block" effects. Whip obviously turns the corner better than say, ugin lol

I think if you're expecting more mono-red, midrange is better, and if you're expecting more devotion, control is better.

That said, I think Mono red, Whip Midrange and Control all got a pretty big boost by dragons of tarkir so expect all three to see serious play. The biggest loser in the new format is probably regular-ass Abzan.

 

[Jhriad]

I want to get rid of this Narset while it's still worth something but it doesn't seem like anyone is looking for it on Pucatrade and with the necessary tracking to prevent theft plus fees I'm not sure it would be worth trying to get rid of it on eBay. How do you guys get rid of cards you don't want? Do you usually just trade them away locally?