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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege

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K

keeblerdrow

Member
GB, it's for threat density/beatdown options. If I need to get some skies damage in, the phoenix helps. I'd basically bring them both in if I needed to increase my chances of hitting threats/blockers in against a deck that's putting me under siege. Admittedly, the fanatics could be something else fairly easily.
 
M

Matriox

Member
Shit is so crazy unacceptable.. MTGO may have its flaws, but at least it doesn't allow for this stuff (I guess aside from gamebreaking bugs lol). Would be really nice if we had a good client :p

EDIT: Whats the kill count of cheaters we have so far?
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
kirblar said:
Glad to see Evan standing up for this- the video coverage rules are absolutely absurd. The bureaucratic literalism endemic to MTG judging is not a good thing.
Click to expand...

Literalism > Subjectivity. Judges need to be as consistent as possible from person to person, event to event.

EDIT: This is the cheat in question I believe. Super ballsy.

http://imgur.com/a/FfazV

This kinda shit is completely unacceptable. Deliberate, practiced cheats have to get you lifetimed. Cheating can not be allowed to lead to success.
 
K

kirblar

Member
divisionbyzorro said:
Literalism > Subjectivity. Judges need to be as consistent as possible from person to person, event to event.

EDIT: This is the cheat in question I believe. Super ballsy.

http://imgur.com/a/FfazV

This kinda shit is completely unacceptable. Deliberate, practiced cheats have to get you lifetimed. Cheating can not be allowed to lead to success.
Click to expand...
Policies need to be consistent. Individual situations will never be and policies should reflect context sensitivity.

Consistency of process > Consistency of outcomes.
 
A

Arksy

Member
Wow so much scummy behavior. I would hate to see people having to play digitally in professional games just so we can have full rules enforcement.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
kirblar said:
Policies need to be consistent. Individual situations will never be and policies should reflect context sensitivity.

Consistency of process > Consistency of outcomes.
Click to expand...

See, I completely agree with your last statement. The process must be consistent. You should not be allowed to break a rule and have a different punishment applied because a camera happened to be recording what you are doing.

I'm not trying to be difficult here; I just honestly can't understand how to arrive at that conclusion. You shouldn't be allowed to play sloppy just because a camera is watching. It's the responsibility of the players to maintain gamestate, not anyone else.
 
M

Matriox

Member
Bahahaha, I hadn't seen that before. Pretty awesome roast your own Hornet Nest.

divisionbyzorro said:
See, I completely agree with your last statement. The process must be consistent. You should not be allowed to break a rule and have a different punishment applied because a camera happened to be recording what you are doing.

I'm not trying to be difficult here; I just honestly can't understand how to arrive at that conclusion. You shouldn't be allowed to play sloppy just because a camera is watching. It's the responsibility of the players to maintain gamestate, not anyone else.
Click to expand...

I can't think of off the top of my head a similar circumstance that has cameras on certain parts of a game like Magic does (outside of other TCG's). Most other circumstances have a camera on an entire event rather than just a small portion of it, I just can't agree with allowing the camera to assist with rulings on feature matches due to the fact that for the most part the same people (read: Pro's) and average Joe will never get that luxury. I don't get to feature matches much but the occasional time I do its a different world and honestly I felt it was more relaxing due to lack of side chatter and being crowded on the tables.

At the same time, I know nobody should ever encourage cheating or try to let it get away, the fact that they can't retroactively review the tapes for a ruling seems weird that they are allowed to give players the boot for cheating when it wasn't caught live and only after someone on reddit does a breakdown. They have different stigmas, and I know that's why, but in Chapin's circumstance it was sloppy playing and against the rules, no questions.
 
K

kirblar

Member
divisionbyzorro said:
See, I completely agree with your last statement. The process must be consistent. You should not be allowed to break a rule and have a different punishment applied because a camera happened to be recording what you are doing.

I'm not trying to be difficult here; I just honestly can't understand how to arrive at that conclusion. You shouldn't be allowed to play sloppy just because a camera is watching. It's the responsibility of the players to maintain gamestate, not anyone else.
Click to expand...
Allowing downgrades to warnings in situations where you can correct a game state and you are certain no premeditation occurred. It's not hard- it's just like fouls in a basketball game.

One of the frustrations as a player is "oh, yeah, your opponent slimeballed you 3 turns ago. can't do anything now".

It's not like the current rules actually catch cheaters anyway.

edit: This is what happens when you don't ban Mastery of the Unseen:

CCUTlWIWEAAn02o.jpg
 
A

Arksy

Member
He offered to show his entire hand at first instance, before it had registered as a game loss. It seemed fairly obvious to me that he wasn't trying to cheat. I don't know, the judge made the right call because the rules are clear but it think the rules are a bit flawed.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
kirblar said:
Allowing downgrades to warnings in situations where you can correct a game state and you are certain no premeditation occurred. It's not hard- it's just like fouls in a basketball game.
Click to expand...

The rules aren't there just to deter cheating. They're there to ensure that all players play correctly. Just because he didn't cheat doesn't mean he didn't violate the rules. If you want to say that the rules for DEC are unfairly draconian compared to the rest of the rules, I'd definitely agree that there's room to improve there. But I still can't get behind the opinion that those lucky enough to get into feature matches are allowed extra leniency under the rules.

Arksy said:
He offered to show his entire hand at first instance, before it had registered as a game loss. It seemed fairly obvious to me that he wasn't trying to cheat. I don't know, the judge made the right call because the rules are clear but it think the rules are a bit flawed.
Click to expand...

The problem is that the point of the "reveal" is to ensure that the card you put into your hand met the condition. It's the same reason you have to reveal to Sarkhan's Triumph. You can't just show your hand, because maybe you actually got that Elvish Mystic with the Triumph and already had the dragon in hand.
 
A

Arksy

Member
You're completely right, I think that in situations where there are you know, thirty thousand eye-witnesses, the reality of the game IS altered. The whole "we don't use video evidence" is kind of bollocks, because if they didn't there would be no way of investigating round 7, and that guy last year who peeked at his opponents deck would have gotten away with it.
 
J

Jhriad

Member
charlequin said:
The single biggest factor in how much sets are opened is draft, followed by prerelease expectations. A shorter Standard stay shouldn't even rate on the list of factors.
Click to expand...

Wouldn't a shorter standard stay with two set blocks mean a shorter period where sets are being drafted? Instead of going to something like Theros-Born-Nyx draft, now when a set that would be Nyx is released it will rotate to the new block in draft instead. Right? Or are they going to have drafts that have multiple blocks? If not, that translates into less time in draft formats.
 
D

divisionbyzorro

Member
Arksy said:
You're completely right, I think that in situations where there are you know, thirty thousand eye-witnesses, the reality of the game IS altered. The whole "we don't use video evidence" is kind of bollocks, because if they didn't there would be no way of investigating round 7, and that guy last year who peeked at his opponents deck would have gotten away with it.
Click to expand...

That's not a good counterexample; the IPG specifically states that they will use any evidence they have for investigations after the fact.

If you're looking for an example that might prove your point, go back to the latest team GP, where Team PBO got a free win because a player incorrectly used Wandering Champion. Nobody caught it during the game, but the stream did, and that player got a DEC and lost the game specifically because they were on video.

I do very much agree that the rules aren't currently being applied consistently, but that's a different issue from the rules being nominally correct or incorrect.
 
K

kirblar

Member
If multiple third parties sees the card that was going into the hand and the game state can be corrected, it should be corrected, the player should be issued a warning, and the game should proceed as normal to its unimpeded outcome. Let games of magic be decided by magic whenever possible.

The whole "you need to hurry up" thing from judges is arbitrary and terrible, btw- especially when you're the last one left. Suddenly they start pushing you super-hard despite a completely normal pace of play because they're antsy to get the next round started. And of course, you're the last ones left because they decided to deck check you or give you a feature match.
 
A

Arksy

Member
divisionbyzorro said:
That's not a good counterexample; the IPG specifically states that they will use any evidence they have for investigations after the fact.

If you're looking for an example that might prove your point, go back to the latest team GP, where Team PBO got a free win because a player incorrectly used Wandering Champion. Nobody caught it during the game, but the stream did, and that player got a DEC and lost the game specifically because they were on video.

I do very much agree that the rules aren't currently being applied consistently, but that's a different issue from the rules being nominally correct or incorrect.
Click to expand...

That is a much better example...

kirblar said:
If multiple third parties sees the card that was going into the hand and the game state can be corrected, it should be corrected, the player should be issued a warning, and the game should proceed as normal to its unimpeded outcome. Let games of magic be decided by magic whenever possible.

The whole "you need to hurry up" thing from judges is arbitrary and terrible, btw- especially when you're the last one left. Suddenly they start pushing you super-hard despite a completely normal pace of play because they're antsy to get the next round started. And of course, you're the last ones left because they decided to deck check you or give you a feature match.
Click to expand...

You said it a lot better than I did.
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
kirblar said:
If multiple third parties sees the card that was going into the hand and the game state can be corrected, it should be corrected, the player should be issued a warning, and the game should proceed as normal to its unimpeded outcome. Let games of magic be decided by magic whenever possible.

The whole "you need to hurry up" thing from judges is arbitrary and terrible, btw- especially when you're the last one left. Suddenly they start pushing you super-hard despite a completely normal pace of play because they're antsy to get the next round started. And of course, you're the last ones left because they decided to deck check you or give you a feature match.
Click to expand...

I understand why they do it, but getting deck checked right after shuffling and presenting is annoying.
 
I

ironmang

Member
kirblar said:
If multiple third parties sees the card that was going into the hand and the game state can be corrected, it should be corrected, the player should be issued a warning, and the game should proceed as normal to its unimpeded outcome. Let games of magic be decided by magic whenever possible.

The whole "you need to hurry up" thing from judges is arbitrary and terrible, btw- especially when you're the last one left. Suddenly they start pushing you super-hard despite a completely normal pace of play because they're antsy to get the next round started. And of course, you're the last ones left because they decided to deck check you or give you a feature match.
Click to expand...

I could be wrong on this but didn't he also reveal some or all of the other cards in his hand from courser?
 
K

kirblar

Member
I don't understand B/U over Esper- access to the dragon spells + actual win cons is a big deal, and the white is barely in the deck.
 
D

duxstar

Member
Man I think I'm going to stop watching the pro tour, at this point it's obvious that the pros never seem to want to do any thing other than counter spells and draw cards so they all play the same decks or x variation of it. Wizards seems to push it as well cause those are the matches they keep showing.

The funny part is there are decks that straight punish the control decks but I've never seen those decks played
 
T

ThLunarian

Member
The argument "He obviously wasn't trying to cheat" is a poor one. It's understood that they didn't think he was trying to cheat because they didn't disqualify him. When you get a penalty other than disqualification, it's implicit that they don't think you were cheating.

I agree that the standards should be the same for everyone. You shouldn't be able to count on the cameras to correct your sloppy play. The penalty was due to sloppy play, NOT because there's any question of him possibly cheating.

Evan Erwin's argument is awful because he uses the "He obviously wasn't trying to cheat!" line of thought.
 
R

Ringo

Member
He was not trying to cheat? Funny one.

I really don't understand why people even try to cheat when there's a camera recording everything? I mean, you can fool your opponent and even the judges, but thousands of people will be watching the video...so sooner or later someone will catch you.
 
Y

y2dvd

Member
I think there are always exceptions to any rules. Everyone knew the only thing he could take was Tasigur. It was a given. The game state would not have changed in any ways possible. Now if it was a missed trigger that totally affects the game state such as putting counters on something or land drops then they should be penalized as they currently would be.

I'm with Erwin on this one. Featured matches already gets special treatments. Why not use clear evidence to make the best judgement call possible? Like imagine there were a bunch of murder trials going around, but one if them had clear video evidence he didn't commit the murder. You probably want to take that video into consideration.
my analogies are always terrible lol
 
G

"God's Beard!"

Member
duxstar said:
Man I think I'm going to stop watching the pro tour, at this point it's obvious that the pros never seem to want to do any thing other than counter spells and draw cards so they all play the same decks or x variation of it. Wizards seems to push it as well cause those are the matches they keep showing.

The funny part is there are decks that straight punish the control decks but I've never seen those decks played
Click to expand...

Mono red was the most popular deck at the pro tour, and mono red lost.
 
M

Matriox

Member
y2dvd said:
I think there are always exceptions to any rules. Everyone knew the only thing he could take was Tasigur. It was a given. The game state would not have changed in any ways possible. Now if it was a missed trigger that totally affects the game state such as putting counters on something or land drops then they should be penalized as they currently would be.

I'm with Erwin on this one. Featured matches already gets special treatments. Why not use clear evidence to make the best judgement call possible? Like imagine there were a bunch of murder trials going around, but one if them had clear video evidence he didn't commit the murder. You probably want to take that video into consideration.
my analogies are always terrible lol
Click to expand...

I'm not sure making a discrepancy even bigger is a good thing to do.
 
F

Firemind

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";159729814]Mono red was the most popular deck at the pro tour, and mono red lost.[/QUOTE]
PT is not over yet brah
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";159725059]Angry Grimace 2015:



Seems like there's been quite a bit of Esper floating around the top tables.[/QUOTE]

There's like 6 of them total.
 
D

duxstar

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";159729814]Mono red was the most popular deck at the pro tour, and mono red lost.[/QUOTE]

I wasn't talking about mono red, but yeah the top 4 sounds super exciting, debating watching the top 4 or watching golf tomorrow
 
M

Matriox

Member
Didn't Jeskai Tokens win last standard pt? Control was well placed due to the sheer lack of seeing it IMO, last week's SCG Open was 7 RG aggro decks and Bant Heroic...
 
A

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Firemind said:
All four Temur decks didn't make day two. :lol
Click to expand...

That doesn't surprise me but its just a variant of R/G ramp though; I didn't see what top 8 decks were but there were a lot of those decks running around.

Matriox said:
Didn't Jeskai Tokens win last standard pt? Control was well placed due to the sheer lack of seeing it IMO, last week's SCG Open was 7 RG aggro decks and Bant Heroic...
Click to expand...

No, the last Pro Tour in Standard was Ari Lax playing Abzan Midrange (that decidedly midrange Rhino strategy went away fairly quickly after that in favor of "control" and "aggro" versions of the deck. The quotes are because they are both actually just midrange decks pretending to be aggro or control)
 
Y

y2dvd

Member
Went 4-0 last night with Esper Control. The land base can support it. :p The white is really only there for Narset, Otiujai Dragonlord/Command, and Elspeth, so white lands aren't necessary early on at all. I actually didn't run any Narsets and never thought "if only Narset was in play to help close this game." While minusing a DTT can be cute, I was rather happy to draw my win condition over her.

Match 1 vs 5-color Chromanticore
2-0
He easily got to 5 mana every game vs control and it was silly how close the games were lol.

Match 2 vs Abzan Reanimator
2-0
Ashidon Rider and Soul of Innistrad were some notable cards in his deck.

Match 3 vs R/G aggro
2-1
It was pretty much Mono Red splash Green for Atarka's Command and Become Immense. Felt like an infect deck lol. Side boarded in 3 Drown in Sorrows, a Duress, a Negate, a Foul-Tongue Invocation, and a Surge of Righteousness. That life gain from that last two card doe. Probably gonna run 2 in the sb now.

Match 4 vs G/W Devotion
Dragons flew over his stuff to win. Didn't hurt that he was able to bring back all his Deathmist Raptors from the graveyard to get this scary state, only for me to Ugin minus 3 the next turn to completely wipe out his entire board lol.
 
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