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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege

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WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Now we want to ban twin? Lol. If you're in favor of banning an archetype that makes up roughly 15 percent of the meta, then I submit you're just hating a deck you have issues beating. At least the infect hate makes sense as it breaks the regular rules of Magic, but banning a deck with just fraction of the meta is simply crazy, crazy, crazy talk. Won't happen unless they print something that makes it oppressive. And that can be said with nearly every deck.
 

OnPoint

Member
Now we want to ban twin? Lol. If you're in favor of banning an archetype that makes up roughly 15 percent of the meta, then I submit you're just hating a deck you have issues beating. At least the infect hate makes sense as it breaks the regular rules of Magic, but banning a deck with just fraction of the meta is simply crazy, crazy, crazy talk. Won't happen unless they print something that makes it oppressive. And that can be said with nearly every deck.

I agree they need to quit it with the banning of entire archetypes. That said, maybe it just needs to be weakened a little. Someone suggested a page or two back that they ban either Exarch or Pestermite. I'd say that would be acceptable as a measure to take should the deck be deemed a "problem" and we could see how things adjust before outright banning Splinter Twin itself.
 

kirblar

Member
Now we want to ban twin? Lol. If you're in favor of banning an archetype that makes up roughly 15 percent of the meta, then I submit you're just hating a deck you have issues beating. At least the infect hate makes sense as it breaks the regular rules of Magic, but banning a deck with just fraction of the meta is simply crazy, crazy, crazy talk. Won't happen unless they print something that makes it oppressive. And that can be said with nearly every deck.
Dude I've wanted that stupid card banned for almost 4 years. The archetype does incredibly fucked up things to the format- a Vault/Key deck that operates at instant speed and lets you tap an opponent's land down is not fucking fun at all and warps everything around it. It mandates cheap instant-speed creature removal. It negates the ability to use life gain in the format. It and Pod created an issue where a giant # of games ended in an arbitrarily large combo damage kill, which is incredibly bad for the metagame.

The problem is that none of these things are obvious, and because the deck existed in Standard for 6 months and didn't "run things over there", people do not see it as an issue, despite it winning a Pro Tour in a field full of decks that were ostensibly "much more broken", like Cloudpost and Blazing Shoal Infect. Banning just one critter also does not work- Village Bell-Ringer can be subbed in. It's an archetype that should have been scourged off the face of the format years ago and has made the format so much less fun because of it's existence. No combo deck in Legacy feels this obnoxious to play against, even with decks that operate at Sorcery speed.
 
To me, without Pod and Twin, Modern loses the little character it has. Once those are gone everything feels like a shitty legacy deck. Modern was always the least interesting format, but it's just getting more boring over time, somehow.
 

kirblar

Member
Switching in Bell Ringer makes it a 3-color deck. Wouldn't that hurt it's consistency to some degree?
The big problem is the "you cannot tap out ever again" thing- you're virtually locking down your opponent's mana turn after turn after turn. An example of a deck that's suddenly unbound by this change- Soul Sisters. It operates at sorcery speed and gains a very large amount of life, two things that combine to make this matchup near-impossible.
 
The big problem is the "you cannot tap out ever again" thing- you're virtually locking down your opponent's mana turn after turn after turn. An example of a deck that's suddenly unbound by this change- Soul Sisters. It operates at sorcery speed and gains a very large amount of life, two things that combine to make this matchup near-impossible.

Amusingly, Soul Sisters can be real pain for a Twin deck. Their removal has to line up just right.
 

MjFrancis

Member
I've seen a few Twin decks use Breaching Hippocamp as a one-of to dodge Abrupt Decay. The three power also potentially makes dodging Rakdos Charm a bit easier, but that's no different than the Kiki/Restoration Angel combo.
 

OnPoint

Member
God's Beard!";160084327][URL="http://www.starcitygames.com/article/30641_On-Patrick-Chapin-Round-Six-And-The-Importance-Of-First-Impressions.html said:
Great article from Cedric about the Chapin thing.[/URL]

Nobody remembers Breaching Hippocamp.


lol

1. The Cedric article is good.

2. I really did totally forget about that card.
 
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";160088818]You mean Golgari Charm?[/QUOTE]

No, he means Rakdos Charm. You have to make fewer tokens to be lethal, meaning that you're less likely to die to the third mode of Rakdos Charm.
 

ultron87

Member
Rakdos Charm basically works against each player once ever anyway. Once someone doesn't immediately scoop and asks "how many tokens are you making?" you'll know what's up.

Cedric's article is great and articulates the "why can't we use the cameras" argument better than I can.
 
So everybody that I've watched play Reid Duke's Reanimator deck(including myself) has had troubles with mana. Going up to 24 lands was definitely right.

I've made a ton of other changes, though. I think I'm gonna swap out a couple cards for Icefall Regents, too.

No, he means Rakdos Charm. You have to make fewer tokens to be lethal, meaning that you're less likely to die to the third mode of Rakdos Charm.

I guess that's true.
 

OnPoint

Member
Print silver bullet answers!

___________________
Separated At Birth (1)(W)(W)

Instant

Split Second​
Gain control of all creature tokens
target opponent controls until
the end of the turn.
___________________​

___________________
Sea Sickness (1)(U)(U)

Instant

Split Second​
Detain all tapped creatures target
opponent controls.
___________________​

I don't really believe in this, but hey, it's fun to make up cards.
 

Firemind

Member
I like Vedalken Shackles. I wonder if there ever occurred a situation where your opponent goes Splinter Twin his dude, you steal it, he Splinter Twins another dude and you're in a stalemate where you and him have infinite dudes. :lol
 

OnPoint

Member
Combust and its baby brother from DTK (the name is escaping me) do.
I guess that's true. But people seem to still want some kind of answer to Twin even though those exist, whether it's new tech or a banning. I personally think they should just ban the blue flash creatures and be done with it. Require the deck to go 3 color for Bell Ringer or mono-red for Conscripts.
 

kirblar

Member
The deck's no longer all-in on the combo. Because of the nature of it, it just slots right into a control or tempo deck that has a random Vault/Key interaction thrown in. That's something you see in Vintage, but actually don't see in Legacy. Requiring combo decks to be relatively linear is a good thing.

I like Vedalken Shackles. I wonder if there ever occurred a situation where your opponent goes Splinter Twin his dude, you steal it, he Splinter Twins another dude and you're in a stalemate where you and him have infinite dudes. :lol
Lee Shi Tian got KO'd from a PT T8 for playing Shackles wrong vs Twin.
 

Firemind

Member
Oh wait never mind. The creature has summoning sickness after it changes owners. Beginning players always have trouble understanding that. Do they even call it summoning sickness anymore in the rules?
 

OnPoint

Member
The deck's no longer all-in on the combo. Because of the nature of it, it just slots right into a control or tempo deck that has a random Vault/Key interaction thrown in. That's something you see in Vintage, but actually don't see in Legacy. Requiring combo decks to be relatively linear is a good thing.

Right. So wouldn't requiring the deck to have to divide its mana up further and make its combo pieces harder to cast be better for the meta, but possibly still leave it playable?
 

kirblar

Member
Right. So wouldn't requiring the deck to have to divide its mana up further and make its combo pieces harder to cast be better for the meta, but possibly still leave it playable?
They're going to keep printing more and more cards that slot into the deck- trying to "soft ban" it isn't really going to work once you get a majority willing to take action against the deck. Better to rip the band-aid.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Dude I've wanted that stupid card banned for almost 4 years. The archetype does incredibly fucked up things to the format- a Vault/Key deck that operates at instant speed and lets you tap an opponent's land down is not fucking fun at all and warps everything around it. It mandates cheap instant-speed creature removal. It negates the ability to use life gain in the format. It and Pod created an issue where a giant # of games ended in an arbitrarily large combo damage kill, which is incredibly bad for the metagame.

The problem is that none of these things are obvious, and because the deck existed in Standard for 6 months and didn't "run things over there", people do not see it as an issue, despite it winning a Pro Tour in a field full of decks that were ostensibly "much more broken", like Cloudpost and Blazing Shoal Infect. Banning just one critter also does not work- Village Bell-Ringer can be subbed in. It's an archetype that should have been scourged off the face of the format years ago and has made the format so much less fun because of it's existence. No combo deck in Legacy feels this obnoxious to play against, even with decks that operate at Sorcery speed.

I know you don't like it, but you're not making any real case for what that means it should be banned. If the problem isn't obvious, the deck isn't taking over the format and it's not winning most tournaments, then the deck is not ban worthy. I'm sorry, but you've only made the case that the deck is great, but not oppressive.

Yes, it makes you play against it differently than other decks. You have to be careful around turn 4 or risk dying. You have to hold removal rather than just mindlessly flinging your spells out at the first threat. (And name me a modern deck that doesn't mandate cheap creature removal. Path and Bolt are in like, 60 percent of all modern decks and that wouldn't change one iota if Splinter Twin was never printed. )

It's a highly variable deck that demands you pay attention to what the other player is doing. That's part of what makes it an essential part of the health of a format that otherwise would be overrun by Jund or Abzan formats. You're talking about the deck like it's a much bigger problem than the facts support.

And considering you take issue with the deck's combo kill, and Infect and also Pod, it's clear you simply have issues with combo decks in general in the format. Which is totally fine, mind you, that's not a knock, but it's worth mentioning that combo is a legit strategy that has to be represented for the format to stay healthy, contrary to what you're saying. Without combo, you have aggro, midrange and control only. Talk about boring. Combo adds a new wrinkle to the meta and while it's the strategy that needs the closest eye kept on it, as long as it's not oppressive I think it's necessary.

And do I have to point out how absurdly over the top the "no combo deck in Legacy feels this obnoxious to play against" comment is? A deck that can kill you turn if you don't see it coming is hardly on the level of Tinker or Vault/Key.

They're going to keep printing more and more cards that slot into the deck- trying to "soft ban" it isn't really going to work once you get a majority willing to take action against the deck. Better to rip the band-aid.

You keep saying this about every deck, btw. Every deck keeps getting more cards that slot into decks. That is not a reason for or against a banning. Every deck continues to get a growing pool of cards. There is no band aid to rip off, it's the normal functionality of the modern format.
 
I'll make you a deal: you can ban Twin and Simian Spirit Guide if you unban Seething Song. Let Modern get a real combo deck back in exchange for banning the flexible combo deck.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
That always reminds me that whenever I think about what the Modern format would look like without bans, it would probably just be Infect with Blazing Shoal bullshit.

I do wish there was a Modern variant in which I could use Jace, the Mind Sculptor though.
 

kirblar

Member
I do not think that Vault-Key slottable alternate combo kills are in any way healthy for a format. They exist in Vintage because the format is super-broken. I do not think that kind of "Oops I win" play pattern coming out of decks that are otherwise not combo decks is in any way, shape, or form healthy for a non-Vintage format to have. This isn't just cute interactions that get a lot of value, this is decks w/ 2 card infinite combos that don't even need to play those combos to win.

I don't have an issue with Infect as a deck- I just suspect the 1 drop is going to get axed eventually because as they print more and more pump spells they'll need to notch it down a tad.

In Legacy, you can tap out into combo decks and deploy threats against them without an issue. Where Twin deviates from other combos is that it deploys its pieces during your end step while denying your opponent resources on your next turn.

End step interactions just suck and aren't fun to play against. I think they're the most miserable thing in the game, but they're a necessary evil we're stuck with due to the way the rules played out. Decks that are able to operate on the end step essentially get to Time Warp on your end step. It's a big reason that people hate playing against control decks, because they end up with a "play a spell? Counter! Don't play a spell? Draw cards!" play pattern that isn't fun at all. (See: STD Faeries, quite possibly the most miserable deck in existence.) This is why, back in Odyssey block, they tried to make all card draw sorcery-speed to force those decks to actually have to make choices during their turn other than "wrath, Exalted Angel, or pass?" They've gotten away from that recently, and I think it's a mistake. (See: Revelation, although I don't even think Revelation was the biggest issue.)

Legacy combo decks have to be all-in on their combo, and play out their combo directly on their turn. They don't get that "free turn" thing beyond getting to set up with stuff like Brainstorm, or possibly tutoring. This makes them much less frustrating, as you know when "danger time is" opposed to every single one of your turns being "danger time".

The "cards keep getting added" is why you ban the actual combo engine instead of the cards that tip it over the edge. It's why you ban Pod instead of Siege Rhino, Survival instead of Vengevine, and in this instance, Twin over Exarch. The game will keep expanding, and once something crosses that threshold, you have to nuke it, because it will just go past it again later if you try and wuss out on it. They tried that approach in the distant past, and it failed miserably. The only format that gets that approach nowadays is Vintage because it doesn't play by the rules of other formats.

I'd be totally cool with putting Jace in MM2 or 3 and timing an unban with that, just to see if it can work or not.
 

kirblar

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";160115590]So what you're really saying is, reprint Force of Will.[/QUOTE]
You don't want Modern to just be "bad legacy" either. :p
 
Every time you talk about Twin Kirblar, it makes it sound like so much fun. Instant-speed combos attached to flying rishadan ports? I about two clicks from ordering Paul Cheon's list here.
 
You don't want Modern to just be "bad legacy" either. :p

That's what a lot of people actually want. Well, they don't want "bad" Legacy - they want Diet Legacy. All of the taste, none (fewer) of the dollars.

If they would break the Reserved List and start printing the damn dual lands again, I'm pretty sure nobody would play Modern anymore.
 

kirblar

Member
That was a joke, kirs. Obviously FoW should never see the light of day.
Oh, I thought you were talking about my post, sorry- (tl:dr on a one-liner made me asume that.)

I feel like Modern was much closer to Vintage than Legacy in terms of how decks have been structured in the Pod/Twin era, and I don't think that's been healthy. I do think it's good that Modern exists, but I wish it didn't have to. Stupid bad economics.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Oh, I thought you were talking about my post, sorry- (tl:dr on a one-liner made me asume that.)

I feel like Modern was much closer to Vintage than Legacy in terms of how decks have been structured in the Pod/Twin era, and I don't think that's been healthy. I do think it's good that Modern exists, but I wish it didn't have to. Stupid bad economics.

Nah, was making a joke with GB.

Bottom line, we just disagree on Twin and I don't really see either of us moving much on it. But you really shouldn't be so hard on modern, it's actually quite a bit of fun and considering how they hamstrung themselves with Legacy, it's the best format most players will be able to afford. And it can only keep getting better as more cards are added to the pool.

I love me some modern.
 

ThatStupidLion

Gold Member
Heyo - i'm a massive MtG newb and am going to a draft with a friend this week.

Is there any advice/info you can give for drafting/playing this block? i'm going in expecting to lose, but i just don't want to wing it 100%.
 

WanderingWind

Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Ban Spellskite while we're making lists.

Heyo - i'm a massive MtG newb and am going to a draft with a friend this week.

Is there any advice/info you can give for drafting/playing this block? i'm going in expecting to lose, but i just don't want to wing it 100%.

Just have fun! Also, pick all the dragons. They're awesome.
 

kirblar

Member
Nah, was making a joke with GB.

Bottom line, we just disagree on Twin and I don't really see either of us moving much on it. But you really shouldn't be so hard on modern, it's actually quite a bit of fun and considering how they hamstrung themselves with Legacy, it's the best format most players will be able to afford. And it can only keep getting better as more cards are added to the pool.

I love me some modern.
I liked Modern a lot more pre-RTR. I think Abrupt Decay ended up being a large net negative, weirdly enough.

The whole "we're not going to ban the super-obviously-problematic card for over a year" thing left a really bad taste in my mouth as well re: how the format is handled. (Deathrite.)
 
Heyo - i'm a massive MtG newb and am going to a draft with a friend this week.

Is there any advice/info you can give for drafting/playing this block? i'm going in expecting to lose, but i just don't want to wing it 100%.

Big green creatures are king. Dragons are great if you can't get green cards. Any sort of removal is good. Exploit and bolster are good, but don't overvalue synergy. Pick things that can fly. Have fun.
 
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