acheron_xl
Member
It's to drive booster sales.
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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege
- Thread starter The Technomancer
- Start date
- Status
It's to drive booster sales.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Rare lands should always be in the land slot.
And they are willing to compromise the accessibility of eternal formats and in some ways also Standard by doing that? That's pretty stupid. ;-/
How about they make some good, interesting, playable cards for those formats more than just once in a while vs. artificially driving up prices of tools essential to building decks to drive booster sales.
But hey, I guess I shouldn't expect a whole lot from the company that is about to release a set with essential reprints at €10,- a pack and in very limited supply.
Ten fucking euros a pack? WTF?
acheron_xl
Member
It's really hard to design cards to be impactful in eternal formats that aren't also busted in standard. It why they usually only do it in supplemental products.
Modern Masters 2015.
MM2015. $9,99 MSRP = €9,99 MSRP, and because of the limited printing run I'd guess it'll go up to €12+ fairly quickly.
Sure, and I can accept that, it's just that I think there are other ways of selling packs. Like Priceless Treasures with Zendikar. Or full-art lands. Or creating an interesting and fun limited format. Or a foil in every pack. Or all-foil packs. Or God-packs. Or a chance at full art rares and mythics. Or replacing the ad cards with art cards that when put together create a stunningly beautiful Terese Nielsen artwork. There are a lot of ways they can make packs interesting. Putting the lands that are essential to multicolor deck building in the rare slot is a lazy way to do this and makes several formats less accessible to new players and players that just don't have the money to spend on those lands.
Athreous
Member
StarCity is posting Modern States lists, and people on Twitter have already found some fun ones
Here is a Protean Hulk combo deck that I can't understand
Here is a Puresteel Paladen Storm deck that is everything I love about Magic
Batwing Brume is one way to deal with Twin that I never thought of, lol
Hmm I'm finding problems testing this one, cuz sometimes just equipments and lands come but no creature to attach them...
Got 2nd place on Gameday yesterday. So close yet so far! We split top 4, but I still missed out on 1st place prizes which got an Ugin mat and little dragon trophy. 
R1 vs R/W Aggro. 2-0
R2 vs G/W Devotion. 2-0
R3 vs Jeskai Aggro. 2-0
R4 ID
R5 ID
QF vs G/W Devotion. 2-1
SF vs Abzan Aggro. 2-0
GF vs RDW splash Atarka's Command. 1-2
I was Esper Dragon. Every match went fairly easy except for the finals of course. The one game lost against the G/W deck in the QF was due to me misplaying and punting it. RDW was definitely the match I feared the most and it got the best of me. On the play twice, had to mulligan both games, and he was just too fast. It hurts than I never drew any of my sideboard cards either - 2 Drown in Sorrow, a Bile Blight, and two Surge of Righteousness.
The Surge may get replaced by the 1/3 body that gains three life when it enters the battle field. It's either that or Nyx-Fleece Rams. 1/3 is good because it can profitable block a lot of the 1 defense creatures and 3 life is huge. Which should I go with?
I also think 1 Drown in Sorrow will be mainboarded on top of 2 Crux of Fate. Sure, it may be a dead card on a few matches but as long as I get it on the worst matchup, I'm willing to put it in the slot.
MVP card was Foul-Tongue Invocation!
R1 vs R/W Aggro. 2-0
R2 vs G/W Devotion. 2-0
R3 vs Jeskai Aggro. 2-0
R4 ID
R5 ID
QF vs G/W Devotion. 2-1
SF vs Abzan Aggro. 2-0
GF vs RDW splash Atarka's Command. 1-2
I was Esper Dragon. Every match went fairly easy except for the finals of course. The one game lost against the G/W deck in the QF was due to me misplaying and punting it. RDW was definitely the match I feared the most and it got the best of me. On the play twice, had to mulligan both games, and he was just too fast. It hurts than I never drew any of my sideboard cards either - 2 Drown in Sorrow, a Bile Blight, and two Surge of Righteousness.
The Surge may get replaced by the 1/3 body that gains three life when it enters the battle field. It's either that or Nyx-Fleece Rams. 1/3 is good because it can profitable block a lot of the 1 defense creatures and 3 life is huge. Which should I go with?
I also think 1 Drown in Sorrow will be mainboarded on top of 2 Crux of Fate. Sure, it may be a dead card on a few matches but as long as I get it on the worst matchup, I'm willing to put it in the slot.
MVP card was Foul-Tongue Invocation!
This might just be anecdotal evidence, but I only saw 3 Monuments (which just so happen to be an Uncommon fixing cycle) total across all of my three DTK pre-release sealed pools and only one of them was on-color for the deck I was building, so I fail to see how having those fixing lands at Uncommon would have such a severe impact on at least sealed that they by themselves would make it a 'multi-colored format'. I feel similarly about draft, but could see it having a bigger impact there. Of course this might just be me not having enough experience in those formats, but this is how I look at it now.
charlequin
Banned
It's been a while since the rare lands were actually a super serious obstacle to Standard. There are a number of viable one and two-color decks right now that don't rely on pricey manabases and short of Polluted Delta pretty much every current Standard land is $10 or less. Yes, you're still paying some money for the lands, but that's the game you're playing -- it's been this way since day one.
The problem with lands for legacy isn't anything they're doing now, it's that they're screwed on the dual lands thanks to the idiotic Reserved List. And over time they're doing what they need to for Modern lands -- they just tanked the shocks and the allied fetches over the last two years.
They just need to be quicker and more aggressive regarding reprinting any cards that become too expensive, regardless of what type of card it is.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";160749421]Rare lands should always be in the land slot.[/QUOTE]
Definitely this as well.
Lands at rare are a very good thing- they help spread out box costs more widely. DTK is behaving temperamentally price-wise in part because it doesn't have a rare land cycle as a moneysink in the set.
GamerKingFaiz
Member
My LGS is selling MM2 box pre-orders for $225. Do you guys think it's worth it?
"God's Beard!"
Member
A) Priceless Treasures are too rare (and too costly) to be as big a pack mover as something like a rare land cycle
B) Full Art lands only work as an incentive if they are infrequent. Its why they haven't done them since Zendikar (though I assume they will be back in the fall).
C) They try to make EVERY set a fun and interesting limited format. They don't always succeed since they are humans but they are already trying to do this all the time so it not really helpful as a suggest
D) I think you overestimate the appeal of foils to most people. That and they did try seling all-foil packs (Alara block) and they went over as well as lead covered pancakes.
E) Most people will never see a God pack. Just as with treasures, its not a very useful way to get the average person to do a lot of pack buying or trading.
F) Ad cards aren't going anywhere. Per WOTC's word they are effective and help subsidize other aspects of the game.
Anyway, rare lands are a safe investment because basically all decks (competitive or casual) want them and any demographic can either use them or easily trade them away for things they want. They increase the overall value of a set and help to depress the prices of other rares in the set - more packs get opened, supply increases. Like it would be swell from my personal consumer perspective if they just gave them away for free to me but that would have a series of bad economic ramifications.
Lands of the quality of Painlands, Shocklands, Fethces or even Scry lands are WAY better than any 3 CMC mana rock. The comparison isn't valid.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I put the 24th land back in my sultai deck, and it looks like the scg guys agree with me. I'm just never happy at 23.
Infinite Stars
Member
Midway through Game day ATM and holy hell those 2 matches were intense. Lost round 1 to an Empty the pits deck that had 40 cards in his graveyard by turn 6. Lost Round 2 to an esper control deck that I got him down to 1 game 1 and 4 on game 2. I derped during side boarding and took out creatures as opposed to non creatures, so when he ultimated Narset I was screwed.
Sure, but the lottery-concept can be adjusted to more frequently give prizes and to be less expensive for Wizards by offering different rewards. I didn't post these suggestions as in 'this is literally what they should do', but more in the vein of 'Here's stuff that they have done before; they can build on this stuff to make it better'.
Sure; I'm not suggesting that they should have them in every set, I'm merely noting that it is a way to sell more packs and it has been done in the past. They definitely shouldn't do it all the time, no.
Not suggesting them as a separate product, but as something like a god-pack but more frequent. Like one in every box. But I might indeed be overestimating the value of foils to most people.
True, not a very helpful suggestion from me. More of a snarky remark perhaps? xPC) They try to make EVERY set a fun and interesting limited format. They don't always succeed since they are humans but they are already trying to do this all the time so it not really helpful as a suggest
But it does get a specific part of Magic's audience to buy more packs. I feel like the concept of god-packs can be adjusted and tuned to be more appealing to more people, like by having such packs either occur more frequently or changing up what is in them.
They do tokens, so they could do this. It wouldn't be practical and it would probably be too infrequent, but it was merely a suggestion to show that they could do out-of-the-box things like that if they put the thought into it.
I think I can agree. Maybe I'm just looking at this from the wrong perspective. I just find €150+ mana-bases to be frustrating. I realize printing them at Uncommon might not be the right solution for Wizards (and consumers in the way you illustrated), but it's the first thing that popped into my head. Perhaps they should stay at Rare, but printed more frequently / aggressively to get them down slightly. Or have them appear in the Land slot at like God's Beard said / like Fate Reforged, so that they don't take up my damned Rare slot.
Well, duh; that isn't my point. My point is that if such lands were printed at Uncommon, they likely wouldn't have much of an impact on sealed because you are unlikely to get even two of a five-card Uncommon cycle in a single sealed pool, and even if you got something like five cards from that Uncommon cycle, it would be very unlikely that more than one or two would actually be on-color. In that way, I just don't see how it would significantly impact sealed to be multi-colored beyond the way it is now.
"God's Beard!"
Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";160782931]wat[/QUOTE]
The rare sheet has 121 cards on it; every mythic is printed once on it and every rare is printed twice on it. (15 + 53*2 = 121). Since the fetches are rare, they're printed twice on it; so there's 10 fetches printed on the 121-card rare sheet. (That's the chance of cracking *any* fetch, not a specific one).
Alternately, you get a rare (7/8) of the time you crack a pack (the other 1/8 you get a mythic). Khans has 53 rares, so your chance of getting any fetch is (5/53)*(7/8) = 8.25%. In Onslaught it was (5/110) = 4.54%.
The rare sheet has 121 cards on it; every mythic is printed once on it and every rare is printed twice on it. (15 + 53*2 = 121). Since the fetches are rare, they're printed twice on it; so there's 10 fetches printed on the 121-card rare sheet. (That's the chance of cracking *any* fetch, not a specific one).
Alternately, you get a rare (7/8) of the time you crack a pack (the other 1/8 you get a mythic). Khans has 53 rares, so your chance of getting any fetch is (5/53)*(7/8) = 8.25%. In Onslaught it was (5/110) = 4.54%.
charlequin
Banned
Yeah, that's a great point that I forgot. For Standard players, it's always better for a set to have a larger number of desirable rares, because then their prices will even out more and any given card will be cheaper. Playable rare lands are one of the easiest ways to accomplish that. A lot of the very worst single-card prices come from sets with no rare lands and only a couple really playable rares.
And at this point rare lands are also a great option for cards to hold onto since WotC has committed to printing at least 10 every year and we're seeing the evidence that they'll reprint older cycles.
This is also a big reason why Erik Lauer's flat-but-high power level at rare is so good.
"God's Beard!"
Member
not for limited :-(
charlequin
Banned
If you go far enough back, there are even large sets with 121 distinct rares, so every individual rare was as difficult to open as large-set mythics today.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";160788151]not for limited :-([/QUOTE]
Erik Lauer is the god-tier developer for limited environments, though. His large set leads are Magic 2010, Magic 2011, Innistrad, Return to Ravnica, Modern Masters, Theros, and Khans of Tarkir. That's going to easily be the best draft-format resume for any lead developer by a country mile.
@Tiemen: I didn't mean to imply your suggestions were be-all-end-all declarations but rather I was trying to make clear why none of them either work much at all or are only useful once in a blue moon. If fixing lands in the rare slot is a problem (which I'm not inclined to agree with since I'd much rather open a rare land than random 9/9 for 15 mana or a dumb Johnny card that makes an infinite combo if you have 5 other cards out at the same time and your opponent plays NO removal) then the solution has to be something WOTC can reuse frequently and in back to back sets without fatigue. A lottery, amongst other things, just won't cut it.
I'd also have to say that better fixing in the uncommon slot (i.e. rare tier fixing) would have a pretty big effect on the sealed environment and especially the draft environment. Both types have to use the same packs so even if something were "ok" in one context if its not ok in the other its a "no-go".
Regarding Fate Reforged: The issue with FRF was less that the rares were good but that they were SO MUCH BETTER than a lot of the uncommons and commons. Colors were kind of shallow which meant people were less willing to abandon their rares. It also meant that if you didn't get a sick rare, then your collection of commons/uncommons were less likely to bail you out if your opponent had a bomb rare than they would be in a lot of other formats. It probably didn't help that a lot of the best cards in the set were noncreature enchantments or instants/sorceries which are harder to interact with than a typical "dragon".
I'd also have to say that better fixing in the uncommon slot (i.e. rare tier fixing) would have a pretty big effect on the sealed environment and especially the draft environment. Both types have to use the same packs so even if something were "ok" in one context if its not ok in the other its a "no-go".
Regarding Fate Reforged: The issue with FRF was less that the rares were good but that they were SO MUCH BETTER than a lot of the uncommons and commons. Colors were kind of shallow which meant people were less willing to abandon their rares. It also meant that if you didn't get a sick rare, then your collection of commons/uncommons were less likely to bail you out if your opponent had a bomb rare than they would be in a lot of other formats. It probably didn't help that a lot of the best cards in the set were noncreature enchantments or instants/sorceries which are harder to interact with than a typical "dragon".
Managed to win Game Day with this list:
Creatures (5)
Planeswalkers (1)
Spells (27)
Lands (27)
Sideboard (15)
The Utter Ends and Perilous Vault were mainly meta calls; yesterday the main decks that did well were G/W Devotion, Red Aggro and Chromantiflayer. Aggro was an easy match up. G/W Devotion seemed like it should favor me, but I had the utter ends and vault just in case they managed to get in under with a Mastery of the Unseen. Chromaniflayer is also a fairly easy match up, since it's so inconsistent, but on the rare occasion when it gets an indestructible Chromantiflayer going, the Utter Ends and Vault seemed like decent answers.
In any case, the Chromantiflayer player didn't show up, so I think I would have been better served with another negate in place of the Vault.
Creatures (5)
- 3x Dragonlord Ojutai
- 2x Silumgar, the Drifting Death
Planeswalkers (1)
- 1x Ugin, the Spirit Dragon
Spells (27)
- 2x Thoughtseize
- 3x Anticipate
- 4x Silumgar's Scorn
- 2x Bile Blight
- 2x Ultimate Price
- 2x Foul-Tongue Invocation
- 2x Dissolve
- 3x Hero's Downfall
- 1x Utter End
- 2x Crux of Fate
- 4x Dig Through Time
Lands (27)
- 3x Island
- 2x Swamp
- 1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
- 4x Polluted Delta
- 4x Dismal Backwater
- 2x Caves of Koilos
- 4x Temple of Deceit
- 4x Temple of Enlightenment
- 2x Haven of the Spirit Dragon
- 1x Temple of Silence
Sideboard (15)
- 2x Thoughtseize
- 2x Bile Blight
- 2x Ultimate Price
- 1x Foul-Tongue Invocation
- 1x Negate
- 3x Drown in Sorrow
- 1x Utter End
- 1x Perilous Vault
- 1x Dragonlord's Perrogative
- 1x Dragonlord Silumgar
The Utter Ends and Perilous Vault were mainly meta calls; yesterday the main decks that did well were G/W Devotion, Red Aggro and Chromantiflayer. Aggro was an easy match up. G/W Devotion seemed like it should favor me, but I had the utter ends and vault just in case they managed to get in under with a Mastery of the Unseen. Chromaniflayer is also a fairly easy match up, since it's so inconsistent, but on the rare occasion when it gets an indestructible Chromantiflayer going, the Utter Ends and Vault seemed like decent answers.
In any case, the Chromantiflayer player didn't show up, so I think I would have been better served with another negate in place of the Vault.
Infinite Stars
Member
Ugh. Game day was a trainwreck for me. We had 14 people show up, so there was 4 rounds.
Round 1: my deck(Dromoka Counters) vs a Sultai Combo deck. Both Games he'd mill/ draw himself down to 20 cards, then delve Empty the Pits where X=8 during my endstep on turn 6. He'd counter most of my stuff until he had enough, then swing for 24+ whatever creatures he still had. 0-2
Round 2: Me vs an Esper Control deck. Game 1 I lost due to FRF Slimugar, who killed my troops due to crap draws and chipped away. Game 2 I side boarded in stuff to deal with Slimugar, completely derping with the actual deck. I got him down to 1 life, but then he X'd Ugin wiping my board followed by -9ing Narset so I had useless cards. This was after I had Banishing lighted his first Narset. Lost 0-2.
Round 3: Temur Midrange. Game 1 he won after I had knocked him down to 2/3, Game 2 I won after he buffed his creatures by playing both a Dromoka's command and Reap what is down on an Abzan Falconer, surviving with 1 Toughness. I then dropped a Citadel Siege and won. Game 3 I lost via Surrak and Temur Ascendancy. 1-2
Round 4: Abzan Control. Game 1 I mulled to 5, kept a mediocre hand and got mana screwed at 3 . Game 2 I side boarded in some stuff and Citadel Siege was able to buy me time with Dragons mode. Still lost hard 0-2.
I know I'm not a very good player in Standard, but I got screwed by the rounds I think. Every round after round 1 I was paired up, with Round 2 being 1-0, Round 3 being 2-0, and round 4 being 1-2. And it's not like there wasn't another person who was at my ranking as I know Someone who also was 0-3 at the end of the third round.
I'm just not sure what to do, because while I like my Standard deck I've had worse performance with this two coloured deck then my 4 coloured stupidity did back at FRF Game Day.
Round 1: my deck(Dromoka Counters) vs a Sultai Combo deck. Both Games he'd mill/ draw himself down to 20 cards, then delve Empty the Pits where X=8 during my endstep on turn 6. He'd counter most of my stuff until he had enough, then swing for 24+ whatever creatures he still had. 0-2
Round 2: Me vs an Esper Control deck. Game 1 I lost due to FRF Slimugar, who killed my troops due to crap draws and chipped away. Game 2 I side boarded in stuff to deal with Slimugar, completely derping with the actual deck. I got him down to 1 life, but then he X'd Ugin wiping my board followed by -9ing Narset so I had useless cards. This was after I had Banishing lighted his first Narset. Lost 0-2.
Round 3: Temur Midrange. Game 1 he won after I had knocked him down to 2/3, Game 2 I won after he buffed his creatures by playing both a Dromoka's command and Reap what is down on an Abzan Falconer, surviving with 1 Toughness. I then dropped a Citadel Siege and won. Game 3 I lost via Surrak and Temur Ascendancy. 1-2
Round 4: Abzan Control. Game 1 I mulled to 5, kept a mediocre hand and got mana screwed at 3 . Game 2 I side boarded in some stuff and Citadel Siege was able to buy me time with Dragons mode. Still lost hard 0-2.
I know I'm not a very good player in Standard, but I got screwed by the rounds I think. Every round after round 1 I was paired up, with Round 2 being 1-0, Round 3 being 2-0, and round 4 being 1-2. And it's not like there wasn't another person who was at my ranking as I know Someone who also was 0-3 at the end of the third round.
I'm just not sure what to do, because while I like my Standard deck I've had worse performance with this two coloured deck then my 4 coloured stupidity did back at FRF Game Day.
Joe Molotov
Member
Played RDW w/Atarka's Command at Game Day. We had 25 show up for Sunday, and played 5 rounds. I won to U/B Control (twice), lost to an Abzan Aggro, then beat a true RDW, and a G/W Devotion. Ended up in 3rd Place with a 4-1 record.
My game of the night was mulling to 4 against G/W Devotion in Game 3, with only a Mana Confluence for land, then drawing land on 2 of the next three turns, sticking a Goblin Rabblemaster on Turn 4, then Roasting his Pulokranos, and using Frenzied Goblin to punch the Rabblemaster through his Deathmist Raptor FTW.
For Top 8, we just split the packs and GTFO. The guy that was in 1st before the split got the mat.
My game of the night was mulling to 4 against G/W Devotion in Game 3, with only a Mana Confluence for land, then drawing land on 2 of the next three turns, sticking a Goblin Rabblemaster on Turn 4, then Roasting his Pulokranos, and using Frenzied Goblin to punch the Rabblemaster through his Deathmist Raptor FTW.
For Top 8, we just split the packs and GTFO. The guy that was in 1st before the split got the mat.
FRF by virtue of its design was always going to be relatively shallow.
I think the big issue they had was that "Wedge" into "Ally" didn't really quite have the mechanical differentiation that you'd want in a setup like this. Something like Wedge->Tribal, where the two things are operating on different axes and the middle set intersects them, probably would have ended up working out better overall with this structure.
I think the big issue they had was that "Wedge" into "Ally" didn't really quite have the mechanical differentiation that you'd want in a setup like this. Something like Wedge->Tribal, where the two things are operating on different axes and the middle set intersects them, probably would have ended up working out better overall with this structure.
Ended up getting 2nd yesterday at game day with a 4 color Mastery of the Unseen GW devotion deck mashed together with Temur Ascendancy Combo. Added a 5th color in the board for Phenax just incase there was a mirror but nope, played against UR Robots (2-0), Abzan Collected Company (2-1), Abzan Midrange (2-1. caught him cheating in the last game though, drew 2 cards off his first draw and asked for a hand count, turns out he had 8 after playing a land), and lost in the finals to RG Aggro (0-2). Overall pretty happy I got to play magic at all this weekend, I had installed laminate flooring all day Friday and Saturday so I could definitely use the break.
My decklist was very similar. What did you sb in and out in the key matchups?
"God's Beard!"
Member
Tinsman did Rise of Eldrazi. Game.
This deck doesn't care about attaching the equipment though...
phazedplasma
Member
ojutai's out of stock everywhere i feel like i should own 3 just cause
Joe Molotov
Member
Last night we were cracking packs and one of the guys that's been kinda out of the loop since DTK was like "Is the white-blue dragon worth anything?" and I was like "What, Pristine Skywise? Nah." and then I looked over and saw that it was Ojutai, haha.
phazedplasma
Member
yeah i figure i could draft a bunch and hope to open some. Or I could pat the cost of 3 drafts and buy 3...
omg this match
g1 Cyclonic Rift into Hymn+Snapcaster Hymn, then g2 win at 2 life by casting a Profane Command with X=8
"God's Beard!"
Member
Infinite Stars
Member
I derped last night and trade my Ojutai for a Monastery Mentor. Oh well, it helps to work with that Cheerios deck for Modern.
I'm buying a box at that price flat, no tax. I don't think MM2 booster boxes will get any cheaper than that.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Since we're on the subject, what's the pick? Here's one of the more interesting openers I've seen for Rise:
Tuskcaller is a slightly underpowered and vulnerable finisher, but it can certainly take over the right type of game. Domestication and Heat Ray are both top-tier removal spells, and Growth Spasm is a premium common for the best deck in the format. Slash, Predator and Drone are all solid cards, and Prism would be a solid wheel for any pick.
Why?
Tuskcaller is a slightly underpowered and vulnerable finisher, but it can certainly take over the right type of game. Domestication and Heat Ray are both top-tier removal spells, and Growth Spasm is a premium common for the best deck in the format. Slash, Predator and Drone are all solid cards, and Prism would be a solid wheel for any pick.
Why?
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