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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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It sounds like they're considering making standard 8 sets, with the 1 incoming replacing the one outgoing.
Where are you seeing this?
Oh, and for all the talk of making everything Standard to show off the new set? The only M15 cards in the finals were 2 copies of Sunblade elf, and 3 copies of Divination (and was already standard legal) among the 2 lists of 75.
It was on the dailyMTG survey "Do cards rotate out of Standard too fast?" and Aaron shot down 3-year block rotations on twitter earlier - this is the only viable alternative to what we have now. It would force standard to change every season.Where are you seeing this?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
It sounds like they're considering making standard 8 sets, with the 1 incoming replacing the one outgoing.
That would be fucking bizarre. Gatecrash and Maze legal without RtR?
It was on the dailyMTG survey "Do cards rotate out of Standard too fast?" and Aaron shot down 3-year block rotations on twitter earlier - this is the only viable alternative to what we have now. It would force standard to change every season.
The real solution is actually being willing to ban cards. What would the PT have looked like if there was a ban list of:
- Thoughtsieze
- Pack Rat
- Sphinx's Revalation
- Coursair of Kruphex
- Nightwing Spectar
Granted, the latter 2 don't really deserve to be banned as it stands, but are there as my predictions of cards that would need banning after banning the first 3 cards
They need it to be dynamic. The last few years have been the opposite of that.Let's not make Standard into Modern shall we?
The results from this PT say otherwise. SCG Opens are lol.
PT results aren't the be-all, end all, due to the fact that you can go 6-0 in limited, 6-4 in constructed and still make the top 8. or go 10-0 in constructed but 0-6 in limited and not top 8.
Yeah, they don't tell the whole story.PT results aren't the be-all, end all, due to the fact that you can go 6-0 in limited, 6-4 in constructed and still make the top 8. or go 10-0 in constructed but 0-6 in limited and not top 8.
Ironic after you said this.
Oh, and for all the talk of making everything Standard to show off the new set? The only M15 cards in the finals were 2 copies of Sunblade elf, and 3 copies of Divination (and was already standard legal) among the 2 lists of 75.
Wizards is too afraid of making players upset. A banning of one card might devalue a handful of others by ruining a deck, so they don't want to ever do that. It is something they don't do enough, though. I don't know that anything needs a ban right now. Maybe Thoughtseize if it keeps being so oppressive.
What they really need to do better is make sure there's answers available for every strategy. Pack Rat ends up becoming a powerhouse because of the disruption that can surround it (and Mutavault). The second it became obvious that it was a force, they should have been ready with something to yang to its yin. There should be a card that punishes Pack Rat. Bile Blight is in the same color, so it kind of doesn't count, since the decks that would use a BB spell are probably also playing it (which proved to be true).
What they really need to do better is make sure there's answers available for every strategy. Pack Rat ends up becoming a powerhouse because of the disruption that can surround it (and Mutavault). The second it became obvious that it was a force, they should have been ready with something to yang to its yin. There should be a card that punishes Pack Rat. Bile Blight is in the same color, so it kind of doesn't count, since the decks that would use a BB spell are probably also playing it (which proved to be true).
Ironic after you said this.
The reason that they gave for killing Modern was that they wanted to showcase the newer cards, because the Pro Tour is a marketing tool. I'm saying that instead of blaming the format, blame the fact that the sets suck. The only other cards in the top 8 from M15 were Painlands, Urborg, Stoke the Flame (in Sperlings deck), and Nissa.
But saying that a tournament consisting only of good players is a barometer for a format that is played at FNMs, at SCGs every week isn't the case. The format is super stagnet- there haven't been new deck archetypes since R/W Burn became a thing early this year that hasn't just been an iteration on a dominant deck (What color do I want secondary in my Mono Black deck?). There was an SCG open this same weekend- 4 Mono Blue decks in the top 8.
keeblerdrow
Member
There was an SCG open this same weekend- 3 Mono Blue decks in the top 4.
Fixed this to help show how ridiculous it was.
It's a core set. What more do you want?
Paul Rietzl said this about his deck at the PT:
M15 made playing Elspeth and Obzedat possible. Similarly, JOU allowed green splashes and made allied aggro's mana base acceptable without relying on ETB lands. BTG allowed the Jund Monsters/Planeswalkers archetype to flourish. This whole Standard has been stagnant argument has been overdone. Every other constructed format is more stagnant if you compare it to Standard, since Standard actually rotates once in a while.
The brewer inside me cannot wait for Khans to come out.
Paul Rietzl said this about his deck at the PT:
To clarify, this is not Black Devotion splashing white. This is an entirely different archetypeOrzhov midrange. With a Legacy owing to the deck Patrick Chapin and I used with great effect last fall in Dublin, this latest incarnation has evolved significantly to incorporate black staples like Pack Rat and Desecration Demon. The concept is that you trade some resources and then knock them out with one of your 5cc or 6cc haymakers (or clean up with Pack Rats). Specifically, Blood Baron of Vizkopa is a card we feel is especially well-positioned in this particular metagame, which we expect to be full of Black Devotion variants, white/green aggro, andDetention Spheres. In addition, Elspeth, Suns Champion is a criminally underplayed card in Standard.
M15 made playing Elspeth and Obzedat possible. Similarly, JOU allowed green splashes and made allied aggro's mana base acceptable without relying on ETB lands. BTG allowed the Jund Monsters/Planeswalkers archetype to flourish. This whole Standard has been stagnant argument has been overdone. Every other constructed format is more stagnant if you compare it to Standard, since Standard actually rotates once in a while.
The brewer inside me cannot wait for Khans to come out.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Where are you seeing this?
Oh, and for all the talk of making everything Standard to show off the new set? The only M15 cards in the finals were 2 copies of Sunblade elf, and 3 copies of Divination (and was already standard legal) among the 2 lists of 75.
Its the Core Set. What are you expecting? There's only a handful of key constructed level cards in any Core Set.
We are making 2 separate arguments here. I'm arguing that it's stupid to kill modern to "market" your new sets with the Pro Tour, as the top 8, which is the showcase day for the event (People work Friday, there are only 5 rounds of Standard on Saturday, and they show every game on Sunday) did a bad job of showing off Magic 2015. Why not just make the Core Set PT Modern? It never shifts the format (I went back and checked the SCG Invi from last year as their was no pro tour, and while the top 8 being Legacy makes it hard to judge the quality of Standard, it seems like people just jammed Scavenging Ooze into their existing decks and called it a day).It's a core set. What more do you want?
The argument of the quality of standard is separate from that. Regardless of weather a W-B deck is different from a Black Devotion deck, it's still the fact that I've seen Sphinx's Revelation for 2 years, Pack Rat for 2 years (impressively, doing it's first year of damage ruining limited, and the latter year ruining standard), a year of Turn 1 Thoughtsieze basically ending matches sometimes, and more. Even if it is a "new deck", it's still cards we are used to seeing, and are sick of.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
We are making 2 separate arguments here. I'm arguing that it's stupid to kill modern to "market" your new sets with the Pro Tour, as the top 8, which is the showcase day for the event (People work Friday, there are only 5 rounds of Standard on Saturday, and they show every game on Sunday) did a bad job of showing off Magic 2015. Why not just make the Core Set PT Modern? It never shifts the format (I went back and checked the SCG Invi from last year as their was no pro tour, and while the top 8 being Legacy makes it hard to judge the quality of Standard, it seems like people just jammed Scavenging Ooze into their existing decks and called it a day).
The argument of the quality of standard is separate from that. Regardless of weather a W-B deck is different from a Black Devotion deck, it's still the fact that I've seen Sphinx's Revelation for 2 years, Pack Rat for 2 years (impressively, doing it's first year of damage ruining limited, and the latter year ruining standard), a year of Turn 1 Thoughtsieze basically ending matches sometimes, and more. Even if it is a "new deck", it's still cards we are used to seeing, and are sick of.
Taking Modern out of the PT isn't "killing" Modern. The only people who watch PTs are hardcore players anyways. Seems like a pretty simple money-making decision to me.
It sounds like they're considering making standard 8 sets, with the 1 incoming replacing the one outgoing.
There's a couple things that would make me not terribly surprised. One is the tons of Standard PTs, the other is the fact that the Pro Tour players don't seem to be complaining too much about it (which you imagine they would), and some of those PT guys are pretty quick to go off on things they don't like about Magic.
That would be fucking bizarre. Gatecrash and Maze legal without RtR?
C'mon, another season of Ghost Dad! Contrast: three more seasons of Mutavault.
We had a Modern PT half a year ago. It was time to show off Super Standard as it's the format for WMCQs, half of the online PTQs and the de facto most popular format. They showed off M15 plenty in six rounds of draft.
I'm of the opinion that this has been the healthiest Standard format for years. You have your aggro decks, midrange decks and control decks. No deck truly dominates the format and despite what people say, Thoughtseize doesn't deserve to be banned, despite frustrating deckbuilders with synergies in mind. Pack Rat and Mutavault will rotate out soon enough anyway.
I'm of the opinion that this has been the healthiest Standard format for years. You have your aggro decks, midrange decks and control decks. No deck truly dominates the format and despite what people say, Thoughtseize doesn't deserve to be banned, despite frustrating deckbuilders with synergies in mind. Pack Rat and Mutavault will rotate out soon enough anyway.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Thoughtseize isn't even that frustrating. You want frustrating? Try playing a five color deck against Blood Moon.
Or against Miracles when their opening hand is Brainstorm Brainstorm Brainstorm Spell Pierce Force of Will Fetchland Fetchland.
Or against Miracles when their opening hand is Brainstorm Brainstorm Brainstorm Spell Pierce Force of Will Fetchland Fetchland.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";123975614]Thoughtseize isn't even that frustrating. You want frustrating? Try playing a five color deck against Blood Moon.
Or against Miracles when their opening hand is Brainstorm Brainstorm Brainstorm Spell Pierce Force of Will Fetchland Fetchland.[/QUOTE]
How does one even beat that card without Thoughtseizing or Duressing it first? (This is a similar question I had to what a U/R storm deck does if you play Leyline of the Void)
Or against Miracles when their opening hand is Brainstorm Brainstorm Brainstorm Spell Pierce Force of Will Fetchland Fetchland.[/QUOTE]
How does one even beat that card without Thoughtseizing or Duressing it first? (This is a similar question I had to what a U/R storm deck does if you play Leyline of the Void)
"God's Beard!"
Member
How does one even beat that card without Thoughtseizing or Duressing it first? (This is a similar question I had to what a U/R storm deck does if you play Leyline of the Void)
I have 4 Inquisition in my Bogles sideboard, almost exclusively for Blood Moon and LotV.
Storm just scoops, i think.
I read that and then remember that your five color deck is bogles. Then I laugh and laugh.
For some reason I've never actually lost to Blood Moon with that deck. Then again, 4bloodmoon.dec isn't really around that much.
"God's Beard!"
Member
The only tool against Thoughtseize is another Thoughtseize. That's a problem.
I don't know who told you that, but it doesn't make even a little bit of sense.
By that definition, the only way to get around Wasteland is playing basics only.
How is that comparable? Wasteland is a tool to keep the format from becoming magical mana Christmasland and in Legacy often times you will want to capitalize on opposing wasteland that was used for mana to protect your own mana base.
In standard what are the tools to combat a turn one Thoughtseize? On either the play or draw.
There isn't one. That's why I wish they'd do Trap cards again, but like, one or two that automatically trigger something when discard spells are played.
Here's an idea:
_________________________
Can of Snakes GGG
Creature - Snake
If an opponent plays a spell that looks
at your hand, put Can of Snakes directly
into play.
2/3
_________________________
It's not a hugely imposing creature, but a free 2/3 creature on turn 1 or 2 wouldn't be the worst payoff for being Thoughtseized.
There isn't one. That's why I wish they'd do Trap cards again, but like, one or two that automatically trigger something when discard spells are played.
Here's an idea:
_________________________
Can of Snakes GGG
Creature - Snake
If an opponent plays a spell that looks
at your hand, put Can of Snakes directly
into play.
2/3
_________________________
It's not a hugely imposing creature, but a free 2/3 creature on turn 1 or 2 wouldn't be the worst payoff for being Thoughtseized.
They should just make a Loxodon Smiter that has that effect.
How is that comparable? Wasteland is a tool to keep the format from becoming magical mana Christmasland and in Legacy often times you will want to capitalize on opposing wasteland that was used for mana to protect your own mana base.
People play Wasteland in Legacy to Wasteland other Wastelands. What?
At any rate, the point stands. You can't do much, if anything, against Wastelands, apart from Stifle, or playing basics. That doesn't mean losing a land is the same as losing the game. Just like losing a card doesn't mean it's an auto loss. Or do you actually think Wasteland is healthy for the format, but Thoughtseize isn't?
phazedplasma
Member
These board stalls in M15 draft are killing me.
Feel like I should just force red everytime.
Feel like I should just force red everytime.
People play Wasteland in Legacy to Wasteland other Wastelands. What?
At any rate, the point stands. You can't do much, if anything, against Wastelands, apart from Stifle, or playing basics. That doesn't mean losing a land is the same as losing the game. Just like losing a card doesn't mean it's an auto loss. Or do you actually think Wasteland is healthy for the format, but Thoughtseize isn't?
Where the hell did I say that? I said sometimes it happens. Have you ever seen a RUG mirror because one of the deciding factors is if a deck gets cut off from a color or not.
And Wasteland is absolutely healthy for Legacy. Thoughtseize is detrimental to Standard. You disagree?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
They should just print Stifle in Standard along with fetchlands. That'd teach 'em.
They should just print Stifle in Standard along with fetchlands. That'd teach 'em.
I understand the humor angle but since I'm being somewhat serious:
New players don't realize how good fetchlands are because of the 1 life cost associated with them so to print them along with a one mana counter to them (effectively one CC land destruction) would be absolutely devastating. They won't even print Stone Rain anymore because it's not fun.
I understand the humor angle but since I'm being somewhat serious:
New players don't realize how good fetchlands are because of the 1 life cost associated with them so to print them along with a one mana counter to them (effectively one CC land destruction) would be absolutely devastating. They won't even print Stone Rain anymore because it's not fun.
When I came back Onslaught was still affordable so we bought a box. I looked at the fetches and said "Why are these so expensive" and we sold them.
Then I got better. But by that point, the bubble began to inflate. It never burst.
SigmasonicX
Member
Speaking of fetchlands, I feel like this could be a neat hoser that has an innocuous effect at first that really builds up over time.
Dwarf Claimjumper - R
Creature - Dwarf
Nonbasic lands enter the battlefield tapped unless its owner has Dwarf Claimjumper deal 2 damage to him or her.
1/1
A fetch->shock untapped play goes from a loss of 3 life to 7 life.
Also, unrelated, I feel like this could be a neat thing for red to do:
Roam - R
Sorcery
Gain control of target land until end of turn. Untap that land.
If the opponent had just enough mana open for a counter or a buff or something, he or she will be forced to either cast it early or not cast it. Plus, this can be color fixing in a pinch.
Dwarf Claimjumper - R
Creature - Dwarf
Nonbasic lands enter the battlefield tapped unless its owner has Dwarf Claimjumper deal 2 damage to him or her.
1/1
A fetch->shock untapped play goes from a loss of 3 life to 7 life.
Also, unrelated, I feel like this could be a neat thing for red to do:
Roam - R
Sorcery
Gain control of target land until end of turn. Untap that land.
If the opponent had just enough mana open for a counter or a buff or something, he or she will be forced to either cast it early or not cast it. Plus, this can be color fixing in a pinch.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Speaking of fetchlands, I feel like this could be a neat hoser that has an innocuous effect at first that really builds up over time.
Dwarf Claimjumper - R
Creature - Dwarf
Nonbasic lands enter the battlefield tapped unless its owner has Dwarf Claimjumper deal 2 damage to him or her.
1/1
A fetch->shock untapped play goes from a loss of 3 life to 7 life.
Also, unrelated, I feel like this could be a neat thing for red to do:
Roam - R
Sorcery
Gain control of target land until end of turn. Untap that land.
If the opponent had just enough mana open for a counter or a buff or something, he or she will be forced to either cast it early or not cast it. Plus, this can be color fixing in a pinch.
That kind of hatebear would need to cost more than CMC 1.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I understand the humor angle but since I'm being somewhat serious:
New players don't realize how good fetchlands are because of the 1 life cost associated with them so to print them along with a one mana counter to them (effectively one CC land destruction) would be absolutely devastating. They won't even print Stone Rain anymore because it's not fun.
Trickbind exists and isn't played. I feel like I should play it just to piss people off though.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Shadow of Doubt is the best "troll your fetch" card.
You can troll the shit out of Scapeshift with that card too. Not quite as good as as doing it to a fetch though since they don't have to sacrifice their lands until after it resolves.
Where the hell did I say that? I said sometimes it happens. Have you ever seen a RUG mirror because one of the deciding factors is if a deck gets cut off from a color or not.
And Wasteland is absolutely healthy for Legacy. Thoughtseize is detrimental to Standard. You disagree?
They both have the same function: to disrupt the opponent and throw off his or her game with a one-for-one. It's just that Thoughtseize is incredibly efficient at what it does. It is therefore powerful, but not format stifling without a strong follow-up such as Pack Rat. Pack Rat literally takes over games when left alone. Obviously, R&D won't make the same mistake again.
"God's Beard!"
Member
The only card I would even start to consider being bad for Standard is Lifebane Zombie.
Also, Thoughtseize isn't a real 1-for-1 since you're not trading resources. There are very real situations where turn 1 thoughtseize does nothing to affect the flow of the game except lose you two life(say your opponent's opening hand is 3 lands, two 2-drops and two 3-drops). Obviously it's still insane, but I wouldn't call it a 1-for-1.
Also, Thoughtseize isn't a real 1-for-1 since you're not trading resources. There are very real situations where turn 1 thoughtseize does nothing to affect the flow of the game except lose you two life(say your opponent's opening hand is 3 lands, two 2-drops and two 3-drops). Obviously it's still insane, but I wouldn't call it a 1-for-1.
They both have the same function: to disrupt the opponent and throw off his or her game with a one-for-one. It's just that Thoughtseize is incredibly efficient at what it does. It is therefore powerful, but not format stifling without a strong follow-up such as Pack Rat. Pack Rat literally takes over games when left alone. Obviously, R&D won't make the same mistake again.
So I imagine this was probably would have been your argument back during Lorywn Standard:
"Thoughtseize is powerful but not format stifling without a strong follow-up such as Bitterblossom. Bitterblossom literally takes over games when left alone. Obviously, R&D won't make the same mistake again."
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";124001633]The only card I would even start to consider being bad for Standard is Lifebane Zombie.
Also, Thoughtseize isn't a real 1-for-1 since you're not trading resources. There are very real situations where turn 1 thoughtseize does nothing to affect the flow of the game except lose you two life. Obviously it's still insane, but I wouldn't call it a 1-for-1.[/QUOTE]
In a situation where you Thoughtseize and lose 2 life you still gain information that your opponent has jack shit.
"God's Beard!"
Member
In a situation where you Thoughtseize and lose 2 life you still gain information that your opponent has jack shit.
Not what I meant. I meant that sometimes taking a card doesn't prevent your opponent from maximizing their resources. This happens mostly against aggro, though. Which is why it's an awesome card, but I don't really define it as a 1-for-1.
Obviously it ranges everywhere from pay two life and discard a card to put your opponent's Loxodon Smiter into play to a 1-mana Time Walk. It's definitely the most useful card in Standard.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";124002773]Not what I meant. I meant that sometimes taking a card doesn't prevent your opponent from maximizing their resources. This happens mostly against aggro, though. Which is why it's an awesome card, but I don't really define it as a 1-for-1.
Obviously it ranges everywhere from pay two life and discard a card to put your opponent's Loxodon Smiter into play to a 1-mana Time Walk. It's definitely the most useful card in Standard.[/QUOTE]
Aggro is the only matchup where Thoughtseize is weak because aggro is centered around redundancy in creatures and removal/burn/etc. Any other non-aggro match up Thoughtseize is the best card you can have in your opening 7. Thoughtseize also makes mulligans even shittier in the current standard.
Obviously it ranges everywhere from pay two life and discard a card to put your opponent's Loxodon Smiter into play to a 1-mana Time Walk. It's definitely the most useful card in Standard.[/QUOTE]
Aggro is the only matchup where Thoughtseize is weak because aggro is centered around redundancy in creatures and removal/burn/etc. Any other non-aggro match up Thoughtseize is the best card you can have in your opening 7. Thoughtseize also makes mulligans even shittier in the current standard.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Aggro is the only matchup where Thoughtseize is weak because aggro is centered around redundancy in creatures and removal/burn/etc. Any other non-aggro match up Thoughtseize is the best card you can have in your opening 7. Thoughtseize also makes mulligans even shittier in the current standard.
Never said I disagreed with you. All I'm saying is that Thoughtseize isn't a 1-for-1.
So I imagine this was probably would have been your argument back during Lorywn Standard:
"Thoughtseize is powerful but not format stifling without a strong follow-up such as Bitterblossom. Bitterblossom literally takes over games when left alone. Obviously, R&D won't make the same mistake again."
Faeries didn't even play Thoughtseize until Ancestral Visions rotated out, which pretty much crippled it. Turns out Ancestral Visions is a better card than Thoughtseize!
manipulate
Member
Faeries was such a beast deck, for real. I stopped playing a bit after Shadowmoor so I dunno if anything in the last few years has been as powerful, but that thing was versatile as hell.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Faeries was such a beast deck, for real. I stopped playing a bit after Shadowmoor so I dunno if anything in the last few years has been as powerful, but that thing was versatile as hell.
Cawblade maybe?
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