manipulate
Member
I wasn't playing during that.. although the internet seems to indicate it was a lot more oppressive than Faeries. To be fair, Faeries had a pretty high skill cap. I was awful at playing it.
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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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I wasn't playing during that.. although the internet seems to indicate it was a lot more oppressive than Faeries. To be fair, Faeries had a pretty high skill cap. I was awful at playing it.
So you're implying that to combat Thoughtseize all Wizards needs to do is print a more broken card?
This actually sounds like more reason to keep Modern in PT if the people who are watching the streams will already be very aware of the new sets and what they offer.
blindrocket
Member
It's already been printed, but it's banned in Modern.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
The problem is that a new set is highly unlikely to impact any eternal format because the format's first tier is degenerate combos, which is what I think Wizards doesn't want on camera, even if some people like playing it.
I play Faeries in Modern, although I have no clue what the deck was like in Standard.
New set doesn't always have any meaningful impact on standard either as we've seen through most of this past year. Also the most hardcore players aka the viewers are aware of Splinter Twin and Melira Pod so the shock of infinite combos won't make them want to quit mtg altogether.
Played against a five-color superfriends deck yesterday who ran Xenagos, Kiora, Jace, Liliana, Garruk, Vraska and Chandra. I was Esper Control. Took game 1 but lost game 2 and 3. I'm not sure what I could have done. I didn't have Planar Cleansing and only two Hero's Downfall. Despite removing Supreme Verdict and boarding in a bunch of creatures, I still couldn't deal with the flood of PWs quickly enough especially with Liliana discarding my hand and Kiora disabling my creatures. Maybe, I shouldn't have boarded in my creatures nd kept Supreme Verdict in to help remove creature tokens to buy time.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Updated Esper list going into M15 Game Day.
I swapped all my 3-drop creatures(Nightveil and Fiendslayer) in the sideboard for Nyx-Fleece Ram because I'm afraid of all the new red decks coming out, and Fiendslayer is so bad against Mono-Blue and Selesnya aggro decks. Turn 2 vs 3 is also huge.
I cut Blind Obedience and Obzedat for the 2nd and 3rd AEtherspouts out of the sideboard so now I can use up to 7 wrath effects, 3 of which don't kill my Blood Barons. Without Obzedat, I cut a black source in the form of Watery Grave for an extra Island, which also smooths my early game against aggro.
In the mainboard, the 4th Jace is cut for a singleton AEtherspouts as the 5th Supreme Verdict. Now I have 5 wraths and 5 oblivion rings mainboard as indiscriminate answers to threats.
I also reevaluated my sideboard plans from the ground up, but that's a different matter entirely.
What creatures did you use? Nightveil Specter and Archangel are particularly good tech against superfriends decks. Fated Retribution is insane, but it pretty much only hits Jund Monsters and Superfriends decks and the sideboard slots might be too precious.
Do you have an updated list?
I swapped all my 3-drop creatures(Nightveil and Fiendslayer) in the sideboard for Nyx-Fleece Ram because I'm afraid of all the new red decks coming out, and Fiendslayer is so bad against Mono-Blue and Selesnya aggro decks. Turn 2 vs 3 is also huge.
I cut Blind Obedience and Obzedat for the 2nd and 3rd AEtherspouts out of the sideboard so now I can use up to 7 wrath effects, 3 of which don't kill my Blood Barons. Without Obzedat, I cut a black source in the form of Watery Grave for an extra Island, which also smooths my early game against aggro.
In the mainboard, the 4th Jace is cut for a singleton AEtherspouts as the 5th Supreme Verdict. Now I have 5 wraths and 5 oblivion rings mainboard as indiscriminate answers to threats.
I also reevaluated my sideboard plans from the ground up, but that's a different matter entirely.
What creatures did you use? Nightveil Specter and Archangel are particularly good tech against superfriends decks. Fated Retribution is insane, but it pretty much only hits Jund Monsters and Superfriends decks and the sideboard slots might be too precious.
Do you have an updated list?
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I'm not sure how you can argue nothing in Theros block had a meaningful impact on Standard.
Obviously I'm not talking about Theros. Outside of corner cases like Banishing Light, mana fixing is the best the other 3 (including M15) have brought to the format until rotation.
divisionbyzorro
Member
And Courser.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";124034738]What creatures did you use? Nightveil Specter and Archangel are particularly good tech against superfriends decks. Fated Retribution is insane, but it pretty much only hits Jund Monsters and Superfriends decks and the sideboard slots might be too precious.
Do you have an updated list?[/QUOTE]
My decklist is pretty much a carbon copy of the one you posted here when I asked you about it couple of weeks back. Only difference is that I replaced the two Syncopates with two Hero's Downfall because of the prevalence of RG monsters around here (which run plenty of Xenagos and Domri) plus I needed an answer to Obzedat which your main deck did not have at all (apart from counters).
My sideboard was a mess for a while and I experimented with Nyx-Fleece and Ashiok but was not satisfied with the results I was getting. Since a week or two ago, I began running the SB you posted and the results have been great. I like being able to board in cards like Fiendslayer and Obzedat to catch opponents off-guard in game 2s.
For the superfriends match, I removed the Last Breaths and Verdicts and boarded in 2 Fiendslayer and 4 Blood Barons. He was running Dreadbore so I figured those two would likely work well in swinging at his PWs. But Fiendslayer never showed up in my hand and Blood Baron got disabled by Kiora in both games. I didn't think Nightveil Specter would work too well since I wouldn't be able to cast most of his spells with my manabase. Perhaps that was a mistake.
Do you have an updated list?[/QUOTE]
My decklist is pretty much a carbon copy of the one you posted here when I asked you about it couple of weeks back. Only difference is that I replaced the two Syncopates with two Hero's Downfall because of the prevalence of RG monsters around here (which run plenty of Xenagos and Domri) plus I needed an answer to Obzedat which your main deck did not have at all (apart from counters).
My sideboard was a mess for a while and I experimented with Nyx-Fleece and Ashiok but was not satisfied with the results I was getting. Since a week or two ago, I began running the SB you posted and the results have been great. I like being able to board in cards like Fiendslayer and Obzedat to catch opponents off-guard in game 2s.
For the superfriends match, I removed the Last Breaths and Verdicts and boarded in 2 Fiendslayer and 4 Blood Barons. He was running Dreadbore so I figured those two would likely work well in swinging at his PWs. But Fiendslayer never showed up in my hand and Blood Baron got disabled by Kiora in both games. I didn't think Nightveil Specter would work too well since I wouldn't be able to cast most of his spells with my manabase. Perhaps that was a mistake.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I mean, wrong, but okay.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Nightveil is good because Superfriends decks don't generally have ways to stop flying outside of removal and stormbreath, and most players will side out a ton of removal against control. So you can just chip away at planeswalkers when you need it or block xenagos tokens for a while. But in general you're not going to be able to overpower too many resolved planeswalkers.
And Hero's Downfalls over syncopate are probably a mistake. If you're copying my deck, the manabase isn't designed to cast double black on turns three and four, which are the slowest domri and xenagos turns.
Syncopate is a crucial card for countering Domri Rade on the draw, and reactive spells like Downfall let your opponent get value out of their Xenagos/Nissa/Garruk.
On top of all that, Hero's Downfalls add to the already-crowded three drop slot, which means you're less likely to be able to use your mana every turn and you'll wind up getting behind. Against Obzedat, you're better off trying to counter it or resolve an elspeth to keep it from dealing an extra 5 every turn and race it. Decks that run Obzedat have trouble beating your 4 Blood Barons and two Nightveils, so try to keep a little pressure. Remember that you're both slow decks, so as long as you keep them from resolving connections or the whip you're generally in good shape.
As far as superfriends goes, it's a hard matchup that's a little bit stressful because you can pretty much never let them resolve anything better than Courser or you can lose too quickly. It's a natural enemy to control since it's basically 2-for-1 the deck. I always bring in the two Negates for sure. Jamming Elspeth can help you get back in the game, too. Blood Baron is pretty bad against planeswalkers that aren't Elspeth.
How is it wrong? The same few decks are still dominating since fall. The best the new sets have brought are small improvements. Hardly needed every PT to be standard to show off the impact of Banishing Light or Temple of Enlightenment. How many Pack Rats and Revs needed to be cast this past year?
2 Standard and 2 Modern should be what they're aiming for. (Hopefully) gives Standard some time to develop over the block while giving much needed exposure to the other fast growing FNM format.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";124040756]Nightveil is good because Superfriends decks don't generally have ways to stop flying outside of removal and stormbreath, and most players will side out a ton of removal against control. So you can just chip away at planeswalkers when you need it or block xenagos tokens for a while. But in general you're not going to be able to overpower too many resolved planeswalkers.
And Hero's Downfalls over syncopate are probably a mistake. If you're copying my deck, the manabase isn't designed to cast double black on turns three and four, which are the slowest domri and xenagos turns.
Syncopate is a crucial card for countering Domri Rade on the draw, and reactive spells like Downfall let your opponent get value out of their Xenagos/Nissa/Garruk.
On top of all that, Hero's Downfalls add to the already-crowded three drop slot, which means you're less likely to be able to use your mana every turn and you'll wind up getting behind. Against Obzedat, you're better off trying to counter it or resolve an elspeth to keep it from dealing an extra 5 every turn and race it. Decks that run Obzedat have trouble beating your 4 Blood Barons and two Nightveils, so try to keep a little pressure. Remember that you're both slow decks, so as long as you keep them from resolving connections or the whip you're generally in good shape.
As far as superfriends goes, it's a hard matchup that's a little bit stressful because you can pretty much never let them resolve anything better than Courser or you can lose too quickly. It's a natural enemy to control since it's basically 2-for-1 the deck. I always bring in the two Negates for sure. Jamming Elspeth can help you get back in the game, too. Blood Baron is pretty bad against planeswalkers that aren't Elspeth.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I did bring in the two Negates as well. One mistake I made was wasting one of my early counters on Chandra which, in hindsight, was nowhere near as dangerous as his other PWs.
As for Downfall, I figured that with 12 sources of black in the manabase, it should be enough to run it as a 2-of. I've used Syncopate for a while and I don't find that I get much value out of it. Good opponents tend to play around it pretty well and it loses quite a bit of potency in the mid to late game which Downfall does not suffer from. Since these are run as 2-ofs, I am not very likely to have it in my early hands so I'd rather have Downfall.
I will be switching to UW control next week to see how that works out. I like the easier mana fix and the answers that Planar Cleansing will provide. Will probably be using a tweaked version of Floch's decklist. Currently thinking of adding 1-of Aetherling and Elspeth but not sure where to cut yet. Also, I am thinking of replacing the Azorius guildgates with off-color Temples just for the bluff factor.
And Hero's Downfalls over syncopate are probably a mistake. If you're copying my deck, the manabase isn't designed to cast double black on turns three and four, which are the slowest domri and xenagos turns.
Syncopate is a crucial card for countering Domri Rade on the draw, and reactive spells like Downfall let your opponent get value out of their Xenagos/Nissa/Garruk.
On top of all that, Hero's Downfalls add to the already-crowded three drop slot, which means you're less likely to be able to use your mana every turn and you'll wind up getting behind. Against Obzedat, you're better off trying to counter it or resolve an elspeth to keep it from dealing an extra 5 every turn and race it. Decks that run Obzedat have trouble beating your 4 Blood Barons and two Nightveils, so try to keep a little pressure. Remember that you're both slow decks, so as long as you keep them from resolving connections or the whip you're generally in good shape.
As far as superfriends goes, it's a hard matchup that's a little bit stressful because you can pretty much never let them resolve anything better than Courser or you can lose too quickly. It's a natural enemy to control since it's basically 2-for-1 the deck. I always bring in the two Negates for sure. Jamming Elspeth can help you get back in the game, too. Blood Baron is pretty bad against planeswalkers that aren't Elspeth.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I did bring in the two Negates as well. One mistake I made was wasting one of my early counters on Chandra which, in hindsight, was nowhere near as dangerous as his other PWs.
As for Downfall, I figured that with 12 sources of black in the manabase, it should be enough to run it as a 2-of. I've used Syncopate for a while and I don't find that I get much value out of it. Good opponents tend to play around it pretty well and it loses quite a bit of potency in the mid to late game which Downfall does not suffer from. Since these are run as 2-ofs, I am not very likely to have it in my early hands so I'd rather have Downfall.
I will be switching to UW control next week to see how that works out. I like the easier mana fix and the answers that Planar Cleansing will provide. Will probably be using a tweaked version of Floch's decklist. Currently thinking of adding 1-of Aetherling and Elspeth but not sure where to cut yet. Also, I am thinking of replacing the Azorius guildgates with off-color Temples just for the bluff factor.
I have a hot fix
Cancel M16. Make the core set a every other year thing. Replace with Modern Masters this summer, make "Core Set" in 2016, and figure 2017 out later.
Boom. Standard is now different (core sets don't overlap), you make Modern a big thing, and it lets you do more block structures- maybe 2017 is a 4 block set?
"God's Beard!"
Member
Just recognize that Floch's an extremely fast control player with incredible hours of experience to recognize plays quickly and even then, he's been close to turns in almost every match of the Pro Tour. This is also despite having 60 minute rounds instead of 50 and almost never running into the control mirror. It's an incredibly powerful deck with basically no bad matches other than the clock, which is why not many people play it. Also, you actually need the guildgates, unfortunately. Adding AEtherling is probably fine, but every win condition you add to beat the clock actually reduces the deck's success rate.
I played Esper vs Planar Cleansing once at a tournament and our game one took 45 minutes. I was lucky enough to be playing at a tournament where the TO decided not to have time limits, and the sideboard game was another half an hour of me resolving a Nightveil Specter, doing two damage at a time and basically declining any other action until he wasted a sweeper on each individual threat.
I eventually won by resolving an early Thoughtseize to take Elixir from him and basically never fighting over Revelations.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Exactly. He could have easily missed top 8 if he had to draw out a few control mirrors.
Angry Grimace
Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
No there weren't, there were a ton of different decks. Did you watch the PT?
The small sets don't change the way the game is played on purpose because they're designed not to do that.
"God's Beard!"
Member
By the way, here's my new Sultai Superfriends list after having some of my choices either vindicated or corrected by Yuuki and that other dude playing their Jund versions.
Sorcery (3)
Sideboard (15)
Basically, we want an extra Thoughtseize mainboard since we don't have access to Rakdos' Return. Not being able to play Dreadbore hurts, but a lot of the removal changes are made up for by being able to play AEtherspouts, which is insane when you're pumping out free creatures every turn. Having 8 five-drops is a little nuts, so we definitely need to be on the Elvish Mystic version. We can protect ourselves and plow through our deck faster than the jund version with Jace and Kiora, which is nice because it's a little harder to pressure our opponent without Xenagos.
Sorcery (3)
- 3x Thoughtseize
- 2x Abrupt Decay
- 3x Aetherspouts
- 1x Golgari Charm
- 3x Hero's Downfall
- 2x Ultimate Price
- 1x Ashiok, Nightmare Weaver
- 3x Jace, Architect of Thought
- 2x Kiora, the Crashing Wave
- 4x Nissa, Worldwaker
- 1x Vraska the Unseen
- 4x Elvish Mystic
- 4x Courser of Kruphix
- 4x Sylvan Caryatid
- 1x Forest
- 4x Llanowar Wastes
- 4x Overgrown Tomb
- 3x Temple of Deceit
- 3x Temple of Mystery
- 4x Watery Grave
- 4x Yavimaya Coast
Sideboard (15)
- 1x Thoughtseize
- 1x AEtherspouts
- 1x Liliana Vess
- 1x Golgari Charm
- 4x Mistcutter Hydra
- 2x Abrupt Decay
- 1x Pithing Needle
- 2x Scavenging Ooze
- 2x Doom Blade
Basically, we want an extra Thoughtseize mainboard since we don't have access to Rakdos' Return. Not being able to play Dreadbore hurts, but a lot of the removal changes are made up for by being able to play AEtherspouts, which is insane when you're pumping out free creatures every turn. Having 8 five-drops is a little nuts, so we definitely need to be on the Elvish Mystic version. We can protect ourselves and plow through our deck faster than the jund version with Jace and Kiora, which is nice because it's a little harder to pressure our opponent without Xenagos.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Watch out for brews. Cleansing Control is an auto-lose against Maze's End lol
I'd stick with just the AEtherling, either one in your opening hand is a guaranteed mulligan.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Anybody here play on Cockatrice? I wanna test superbuddies.
divisionbyzorro
Member
I somehow completely missed that the rounds at the PT were 10 minutes longer than usual. That makes Floch's choice of deck much, much more reasonable; adding an extra 20% to the match time changes a lot of things.
No, what I'm saying is Thoughtseize, while incredibly efficient, is a very linear card. Jace the Mind Sculptor and Stoneforge Mystic were not linear cards. If they didn't ban Bloodbraid Elf, I doubt they're going to ban Thoughtseize.
I'm not sure where you are going with your argument. Before you said that Thoughtseize was only broken because of Pack Rat but now it's linear? Then you mention Stoneforge Mystic even though it took until Batterskull was printed to push it completely over the edge.
Also why are you bringing up banning? I never said anything about it.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";124049738]Watch out for brews. Cleansing Control is an auto-lose against Maze's End lol
I'd stick with just the AEtherling, either one in your opening hand is a guaranteed mulligan.[/QUOTE]
Oh god, how the hell does his deck beat Mazes end? I'm guessing that sticking an early Jace and protecting it to Ultimate and stealing a 1-of Gate would get a concession, but that's about it.
I'd stick with just the AEtherling, either one in your opening hand is a guaranteed mulligan.[/QUOTE]
Oh god, how the hell does his deck beat Mazes end? I'm guessing that sticking an early Jace and protecting it to Ultimate and stealing a 1-of Gate would get a concession, but that's about it.
Doesn't work. Jace's ultimate has to be a nonland card.
Keru_Shiri
Member
Several Standard events coming up in my area, been testing a Jund Superfriends list. Thoughts?
I'm expecting my meta to be mostly U/W Control and different varieties of Junk/Abzan colors.
I'm expecting my meta to be mostly U/W Control and different varieties of Junk/Abzan colors.
keeblerdrow
Member
I played a jund list almost exactly like that 2 weeks ago. It did fine against control and even beat out a constellation deck. It was murdered by any aggro deck (monoU, red, or GW) and torn apart by mono black variants.
GB, is your plan with you list to just plus Nissa forever? Her plusses are good but not enough to 4-of her. Her ult can go get all of 1 card from your deck. I love nissa, so I would love to hear some insights in your use of her.
GB, is your plan with you list to just plus Nissa forever? Her plusses are good but not enough to 4-of her. Her ult can go get all of 1 card from your deck. I love nissa, so I would love to hear some insights in your use of her.
"God's Beard!"
Member
It doesn't. Ever. You might be able to pithing needle mazes end and run out some crazy counters + AEtherling rush, but even that's probably way too slow.
I've had this come up :-(
I beat the Mazes End player though because that's back when I was still running Ashiok.
I've had Garruk underperform and Nissa overperform. Also, you seem closer to monsters than superfriends. If you really want to play Garruk, you need 4 Coursers. I want to say that you should cut the Polukas for Thoughtseize, but the deck does lose pretty bad to aggro.
Yup. Her plus is insane. It's the best card in the deck even when you can only use 1/3rd of her abilities. It blanks everything from abrupt decay to lifebane zombie and ultimate price.
The aggro matchup is pretty bad, but you really should never lose to black. They don't have any way to stop you from getting value from your topdecks, and Nissa is basically God.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I think Scuttling Doom Engine is better if you really think superfriends is gonna be a big deck.
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";124097699]It doesn't. Ever. You might be able to pithing needle mazes end and run out some crazy counters + AEtherling rush, but even that's probably way too slow.
[/QUOTE]
Post-board there are ways to win (Big Jace, Elspeth, Archangel), but g1 its just a scoop unless you really think you can get there with Mutavault through a billion fogs than they can go get 10 gates
[/QUOTE]
Post-board there are ways to win (Big Jace, Elspeth, Archangel), but g1 its just a scoop unless you really think you can get there with Mutavault through a billion fogs than they can go get 10 gates
keeblerdrow
Member
I lived the dream on my mono green last night. I ult'd Nissa, drained all mana grim my deck and drew 5 gas every turn on garruk. It was a Timmy cream dream.
I really like my mono green deck but I know it's super weak on resilience and removal. And the sideboard options are weak. I was considering a splash for red, black, or white to tighten that up. 5-7 cards in max. I'm also already running no bte to make room for more threats, so I have slots to work with.
I'm also training my girlfriend to play more interactive decks. Until now she's been playing mono red almost exclusively because it's the simplest game to play. I've got her on mono blue but she's getting mentally tired with all the triggers. Any suggestions on a tier 1 or 2 deck that'll help her learn interactivity with 3 triggers to remember every phase?
I really like my mono green deck but I know it's super weak on resilience and removal. And the sideboard options are weak. I was considering a splash for red, black, or white to tighten that up. 5-7 cards in max. I'm also already running no bte to make room for more threats, so I have slots to work with.
I'm also training my girlfriend to play more interactive decks. Until now she's been playing mono red almost exclusively because it's the simplest game to play. I've got her on mono blue but she's getting mentally tired with all the triggers. Any suggestions on a tier 1 or 2 deck that'll help her learn interactivity with 3 triggers to remember every phase?
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
lol
"God's Beard!"
Member
My girlfriend tosses it with Jarad after attacking for 18 damage lol
lol
Is that the first official confirmation she was supposed to be in the set? I thought they hadn't commented on it before
Aaron/Mark have both said she was a last minute pull due to Mono-B being too good w/ her. She's not overpowered for Standard in the least, its just this standard has issues.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
"Don't spare any details" got a chuckle out of me
Depends on the cards but the right old cards can be worth a lot these days.
Should catalogue what you have and then post it here.
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