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[SigmasonicX]

You know, MaRo and others have mentioned both that R&D aren't too keen on intimidate and landwalk anymore, and that they already have a replacement in mind but we won't see it fully implemented for a couple of years. Do you think the mechanic they have in mind is Scuttling Doom Engine's "can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or less"? It's good, but the sort of thing that one can typically already handle without aggressive sideboarding, and it can easily be placed in similar flavor space as intimidate. It arguably works better than intimidate in that regard, since it's odd that any Avacyn would be afraid of a 2/1 zombie. Wandering Wolf has a similar ability, "creatures with power less than CARDNAME's power can't block it," but it becomes too powerful to use frequently on high power creatures, and it generally feels more interesting on creatures with low power.

 

[rexor0717]

http://mtgfan.tumblr.com/post/94140768959/1st-glimpse-pre-order-magic-the-gathering-series-ii

So, uh.... did they not ever notice what Tezzeret and Gideon's ethnicities were? lol

What ethnicity do you think Tezzeret is? I'm having a bit of trouble figuring it out. I kinda want Black Giddeon tho.

 

[The Technomancer]

PS: Kiora will also be released (but there is no image to share at press time).

Fuck yes

I'm glad I waited to get all of my friends the Funko figures. This selection is much better and they'll make great Christmas presents

 

[bigkrev]

Oh god, there is even a large Nicol Bolas one for Grakel

 

[ultron87]

Hopefully those figures mean that Bolas will make an appearance in Khans block. And Tezzeret for that matter. Darksteel Citadel and Thopter must be in for a reason! Though his figure's torso is freaking me out.

 

[duxstar]

So after weeks of testing, I came to the conclusion that if I want to win against Blue Devotion, I need to burn everything blue that moves. Boarding in pumps spells just doesn't work when they have Tidebinders, Master of Waves in every game and Thassa who can race you in two or three turns.

Assuming I have to play a few Blue Devotion matchups in nine rounds (no byes sadly), here's what I decided on my sideboard:

4 magma spray
4 eidolon of the great revel
2 titan's strength
2 mizzium mortars
1 legion loyalist
1 chandra, pyromaster
1 searing blood

Magma sprays are also useful against G/W which I predict I'll get paired against as well. Titan's Strength are for opponents' magma sprays; better than rubblebelt maaka I believe. Rest is for Black/Jund midrange with a fourth loyalist and a couple of miser removal to round things off.

The scariest cards as a G/W aggro player in each color are
Green - Nykthos; with the right draws you don't stand a chance
Red - Anger of the God's/Mizzium Mortars
Blue - Master of Waves
White - Elspeth
Black - Drown in Sorrow/Bile Blight/Lifebane Zombie

I don't know what your running in the main deck, but against mono-blue devotion you should be having an easy time; just burn the devotion so thassa doesn't get online; and keep a mizzium mortars to overload and you take out their board in one swoop. Same goes with Anger of the Gods/ and you should be able burn everything that move's except for Master of Waves.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Fuck yes

I'm glad I waited to get all of my friends the Funko figures. This selection is much better and they'll make great Christmas presents

Its kinda terrifying:

 

[Lucario]

Why is she Kiora Atua again? I thought they decided it was offensive to keep the last name or something.

 

[ultron87]

From what we know of Wizards, someone probably forgot to tell the merchandise team.

 

[Firemind]

The scariest cards as a G/W aggro player in each color are
Green - Nykthos; with the right draws you don't stand a chance
Red - Anger of the God's/Mizzium Mortars
Blue - Master of Waves
White - Elspeth
Black - Drown in Sorrow/Bile Blight/Lifebane Zombie

I don't know what your running in the main deck, but against mono-blue devotion you should be having an easy time; just burn the devotion so thassa doesn't get online; and keep a mizzium mortars to overload and you take out their board in one swoop. Same goes with Anger of the Gods/ and you should be able burn everything that move's except for Master of Waves.

Thanks for the insight. I play a mono red zerg rush deck based around Goblin Rabblemaster. I just read Tom Ross's deck overview at scg.com and, while I don't respect him as a Magic player, he does have good points as a deck builder. Guess I'll play one Hall of Triumph main and another in the sideboard against the attrition decks. Hope I can avoid Mono Blue tomorrow!

 

[Keru_Shiri]

You know, MaRo and others have mentioned both that R&D aren't too keen on intimidate and landwalk anymore, and that they already have a replacement in mind but we won't see it fully implemented for a couple of years. Do you think the mechanic they have in mind is Scuttling Doom Engine's "can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or less"? It's good, but the sort of thing that one can typically already handle without aggressive sideboarding, and it can easily be placed in similar flavor space as intimidate. It arguably works better than intimidate in that regard, since it's odd that any Avacyn would be afraid of a 2/1 zombie. Wandering Wolf has a similar ability, "creatures with power less than CARDNAME's power can't block it," but it becomes too powerful to use frequently on high power creatures, and it generally feels more interesting on creatures with low power.

Has MaRo said anything about "can't be blocked except by X or more creatures"? I've always preferred this to Intimidate as Red's evasion. It goes back to at least Fallen Empires, and plays nicely with Red's weakness in dealing with bigger creatures without being completely unstoppable.

 

[Lucario]

From what we know of Wizards, someone probably forgot to tell the merchandise team.

i don't even think their teams communicate with each other at this point

 

[Firemind]

Red should just get a reworded Flanking or Bushido as an ability. Name it Berserk. Or Fear for maximum confusion.

 

[Lucario]

Red should just get a reworded Flanking or Bushido as an ability. Name it Berserk. Or Fear for maximum confusion.

Only if they make Legend into a creature type again. It can be the M16 rules update!

 

[Keru_Shiri]

Red will now get Banding, to make its creatures less evasive.

 

[kirblar]

What ethnicity do you think Tezzeret is? I'm having a bit of trouble figuring it out. I kinda want Black Giddeon tho.

Look at his original artwork. He's a black guy with dreads. I understand that he's corrupted/screwed with and has a sickly look now... but he ain't Michael Jackson.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Look at his original artwork. He's a black guy with dreads. I understand that he's corrupted/screwed with and has a sickly look now... but he ain't Michael Jackson.

*looks*

Huh. I honestly never noticed that he was black.

Though it is pretty hard to tell in these cards.

Has MaRo said anything about "can't be blocked except by X or more creatures"? I've always preferred this to Intimidate as Red's evasion. It goes back to at least Fallen Empires, and plays nicely with Red's weakness in dealing with bigger creatures without being completely unstoppable.

whynotboth.gif

"Can't be blocked except by 2 or more creatures" is already being used with decent frequency, but I expect that they will leave it unkeyworded, if only because it would be really awkward to give a consistent flavor to it. "Can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or less", meanwhile, can easily have the same flavor for each instance. It could be called "frightening" or "daunting".

 

[OnPoint]

They really did screw up the race of those toys, huh?

I wish they'd do more with Tezzeret. I like to think of him as a modern day Urza, if Urza were a post-mending walker who slightly gave in to the Phyrexian calling.

 

[kirblar]

They really did screw up the race of those toys, huh?

I wish they'd do more with Tezzeret. I like to think of him as a modern day Urza, if Urza were a post-mending walker who slightly gave in to the Phyrexian calling.

I think we're getting Bolas/Tezz this block.

Also, I think Tarkir is Dominaria.

 

[OnPoint]

I think we're getting Bolas/Tezz this block.

Also, I think Tarkir is Dominaria.

More Bolas/Tezz is needed. They need to pull the pin on this story stuff soon. You are making me both happy and sad if you're right.

On one hand, I've been wanting to return to Dominaria for a long time.

On the other hand, it's either A) another continent (like Otaria was) or B) future/past Dominaria, since they talked about time travel.

 

[Angry Grimace]

They really did screw up the race of those toys, huh?

I wish they'd do more with Tezzeret. I like to think of him as a modern day Urza, if Urza were a post-mending walker who slightly gave in to the Phyrexian calling.

I thought Urza actually did give in to Yawgmoth at one point (although he was like faking it or something).

 

[OnPoint]

I thought Urza actually did give in to Yawgmoth at one point (although he was like faking it or something).

There was a bunch of weird stuff in Apocalypse that happened where Yawgmoth had control of Urza and Gerrard, I think, but it's been a decade or more since I read the book so I don't completely remember ... if that's what you mean. I think Phyrexian Arena kind of depicts it.

I mean more along the lines of sacrificing pieces of himself to become a better and more efficient being.

 

[Crocodile]

You know, MaRo and others have mentioned both that R&D aren't too keen on intimidate and landwalk anymore, and that they already have a replacement in mind but we won't see it fully implemented for a couple of years. Do you think the mechanic they have in mind is Scuttling Doom Engine's "can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or less"? It's good, but the sort of thing that one can typically already handle without aggressive sideboarding, and it can easily be placed in similar flavor space as intimidate. It arguably works better than intimidate in that regard, since it's odd that any Avacyn would be afraid of a 2/1 zombie. Wandering Wolf has a similar ability, "creatures with power less than CARDNAME's power can't block it," but it becomes too powerful to use frequently on high power creatures, and it generally feels more interesting on creatures with low power.

A) That ability doesn't have a keyword, it would need to be keyword to be as frequently used as Intimidate
B) How is this ability less swingy?
C) Isn't this ability just worse more often than not? Red and Black need help getting by fatties since their creatures are usually small and often their removal is toughness based. An evasion ability that is stonewalled by a Centaur Courser is useless to Red/Black decks.

I think we're getting Bolas/Tezz this block.

Also, I think Tarkir is Dominaria.

Unless you think WOTC has been outright lying so far, they've been pretty explicit that Tarkir is its own plane.

 

[Firemind]

I always wondered why they didn't make Yawgmoth into a card, moreso than Urza, since I believe Yawgmoth isn't a planeswalker which were presented as the players themselves.

 

[Haly]

I think the reasoning is the same as characters like Urza. If Urza couldn't get a card, and Yawgmoth was crunching Urza, what does that say about Yawgmoth?

Clearly, they didn't want to confine his allure as a malevolent god-like entity to a card.

 

[Firemind]

That makes sense. Although they did print Karona.

 

[SigmasonicX]

A) That ability doesn't have a keyword, it would need to be keyword to be as frequently used as Intimidate
B) How is this ability less swingy?
C) Isn't this ability just worse more often than not? Red and Black need help getting by fatties since their creatures are usually small and often their removal is toughness based. An evasion ability that is stonewalled by a Centaur Courser is useless to Red/Black decks.

A) Hexproof appeared without a keyword before it was made a keyword. Like I said, they could give it the name "terrifying" or "daunting". Or "buffalo", according to thesaurus.com
B) It's much easier to put many creatures with power 3 or greater into your deck than artifact creatures or creatures with the same color as your foe when it's not a color in your main deck.
C) Yes, it's often worse than intimidate, but it's also sometimes better, and it's also something that Wizards would be more willing to put on otherwise powerful creatures. Besides, to get by big creatures, both red and black have flying (red less so), and red has "can't be blocked except by two or more creatures", which Wizards seems to be using a lot more. Plus, I would imagine Wizards considers red's problem with high toughness creatures to be more a feature than a bug. I believe MaRo even stated as much at a few points.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I always wondered why they didn't make Yawgmoth into a card, moreso than Urza, since I believe Yawgmoth isn't a planeswalker which were presented as the players themselves.

The best way to do that would have been to just make him Marit Lage and use the Dark Depths concept on him.

 

[Crocodile]

A) Hexproof appeared without a keyword before it was made a keyword. Like I said, they could give it the name "terrifying" or "daunting". Or "buffalo", according to thesaurus.com
B) It's much easier to put many creatures with power 3 or greater into your deck than artifact creatures or creatures with the same color as your foe when it's not a color in your main deck.
C) Yes, it's often worse than intimidate, but it's also sometimes better, and it's also something that Wizards would be more willing to put on otherwise powerful creatures. Besides, to get by big creatures, both red and black have flying (red less so), and red has "can't be blocked except by two or more creatures", which Wizards seems to be using a lot more. Plus, I would imagine Wizards considers red's problem with high toughness creatures to be more a feature than a bug. I believe MaRo even stated as much at a few points.

A) Well sure but it still is energy they have to devote to naming such a mechanic

B & C) Red already has a bad matchup against Green be it limited or constructed and non-rare Black removal is getting worse. Anything to discourage board stalls is a bonus in my book. I have no idea why you'd want to make it weaker. Also let's be real flying is not an option to Red save Phoenix, Dragons and the occasional mythic.

This Intimidate "problem" seems like a lot of energy devoted to trying to fix something that doesn't really need fixing :/

 

[kirblar]

A) Well sure but it still is energy they have to devote to naming such a mechanic

B & C) Red already has a bad matchup against Green be it limited or constructed and non-rare Black removal is getting worse. Anything to discourage board stalls is a bonus in my book. I have no idea why you'd want to make it weaker. Also let's be real flying is not an option to Red save Phoenix, Dragons and the occasional mythic.

This Intimidate "problem" seems like a lot of energy devoted to trying to fix something that doesn't really need fixing :/

They're clamping down on random evasion in order to make board combat matter more.

 

[Negator]

Only two more months and I can finally play Standard again. Screw you, Mutavault.

 

[kirblar]

Only two more months and I can finally play Standard again. Screw you, Mutavault.

You don't need it for PWs.

 

[Crocodile]

They're clamping down on random evasion in order to make board combat matter more.

When one side has NO good attacks (no evasion and small creatures) they just get steam-rolled. When neither side has good attacks (can only be blocked by 2+ creatures discourages the defending player from attacking at all which in turn prevents the offending player form attacking at all) then you have two players staring at each other for like half and hour till somebody draws their bomb. Neither sound good to me.

 

[SigmasonicX]

When one side has NO good attacks (no evasion and small creatures) they just get steam-rolled. When neither side has good attacks (can only be blocked by 2+ creatures discourages the defending player from attacking at all which in turn prevents the offending player form attacking at all) then you have two players staring at each other for like half and hour till somebody draws their bomb. Neither sound good to me.

You're arguing against something none of us are arguing for.

 

[kirblar]

When one side has NO good attacks (no evasion and small creatures) they just get steam-rolled. When neither side has good attacks (can only be blocked by 2+ creatures discourages the defending player from attacking at all which in turn prevents the offending player form attacking at all) then you have two players staring at each other for like half and hour till somebody draws their bomb. Neither sound good to me.

Flying creatures and unblockable critters will still exist. And those don't turn/off randomly based on what colors are getting played.

 

[SigmasonicX]

Besides, it's not like either intimidate or fear was ever printed on that many creatures per set. It isn't really that huge of a change if this appears at common instead of Bladetusk Boar:

Fearsome Boar - 3R
Creature - Boar
Buffalo (This creature can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or less)
3/2

 

[Crocodile]

Jund colors are the primary colors that get Intimidate. Green gets flying once every ten sets, Red rarely gets fliers and Black gets a ton less than White or Blue but at least it tends to have good removal. Practically none of those colors get unblockable as well. Bringing up flying and unblockable as alternatives seem pointless because flying and unblockable aren't going to pick up any hypothetical slack. This is to say nothing of the fact that when specific creature types or flavor requisites are in play you may actively NOT want to use flying for evasion or that we already have mechanics in play that can actively hose flyers. As an example, giving Red flying or awkward forms of shitty removal only serve to hurt its already mediocre to bad Green matchup.

Besides, it's not like either intimidate or fear was ever printed on that many creatures per set. It isn't really that huge of a change if this appears at common instead of Bladetusk Boar:

Fearsome Boar - 3R
Creature - Boar
Buffalo (This creature can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or less)
3/2

That's a HUGE change. Like how can you say otherwise with a straight face? Now cards like Nessian Asp (among others) embarrass Boar whereas before Red decks had an actual avenue to continue attacking. That's the sort of change that really concerns me for the sake of limited (to say nothing of other formats).

 

[SigmasonicX]

Look, if your issue is that you don't like how red has trouble getting past creatures with high toughness in limited, then there are other ways to deal with that than intimidate. And in any case, we already know that Wizards intends to replace intimidate and landwalk.

Post

subliminallyprintit said: If R&D is lowering their opinion of Intimidate and Landwalk, have they thought up any new form of potentially-evergreen evasion to replace it? Because that would be awesome.

We have. : )

 

[Firemind]

DRAGONS.

 

[Crocodile]

Look, if your issue is that you don't like how red has trouble getting past creatures with high toughness, then there are other ways to deal with that than intimidate.

Sure like Threaten & Falter effects (which vary WILDLY in how strong they are and are certainly less consistent) and.........what? Do you want the aforementioned effects to pick up even MORE slack? Would that be less swingy? Or if your suggestion is"play another color" well everybody already does that so you can save that one

Krenko's Enforcer, Bladetusk Boar, etc. have done great work for their limited formats. I honestly think the formats, and Red especially, become worse with their removal.

I dunno I feel I've been pretty clear on the reasons why Intimidate (in the quantities and types of cards it shows up on) can do good work but people, even allegedly in WOTC, want to remove it for some nebulousness concerns about "swingyness" that somehow don't apply to flying? I'm really having a hard time understanding this.

 

[kirblar]

Sure like Threaten & Falter effects (which vary WILDLY in how strong they are and are certainly less consistent) and.........what? Do you want the aforementioned effects to pick up even MORE slack? Would that be less swingy? Or if your suggestion is"play another color" well everybody already does that so you can save that one

Krenko's Enforcer, Bladetusk Boar, etc. have done great work for their limited formats. I honestly think the formats, and Red especially, become worse with their removal.

I dunno I feel I've been pretty clear on the reasons why Intimidate (in the quantities and types of cards it shows up on) can do good work but people, even allegedly in WOTC, want to remove it for some nebulousness concerns about "swingyness" that somehow don't apply to flying? I'm really having a hard time understanding this.

Because color-hosers are better off as marginal cards rather than maindeck cards with a free upside. Lifebane being hyper-oppressive in Standard is the prime example of the metagame effect they don't want.

 

[Hero]

Because color-hosers are better off as marginal cards rather than maindeck cards with a free upside. Lifebane being hyper-oppressive in Standard is the prime example of the metagame effect they don't want.

While I agree Lifebane is too good for a hoser/sideboard card, let's take into account the fact that mono black is just dumb right now thanks to Thoughtseize, Pack Rat and friends.

 

[Crocodile]

Because color-hosers are better off as marginal cards rather than maindeck cards with a free upside. Lifebane being hyper-oppressive in Standard is the prime example of the metagame effect they don't want.

Swap Intimidate with Flying and make it a Specter instead of a Zombie Warrior and the card is similarly as powerful. Intimidate in itself (as opposed to any sort of evasion, its P/T ratio and/or its ETB ability) isn't what's "breaking" the card. All that being said, I prefer WOTC push T2 cards and occasionally going a bit overboard than playing it safe 100% of the time. Otherwise, I'd never have any cards to put in my Cubes, EDH decks, etc.

 

[kirblar]

While I agree Lifebane is too good for a hoser/sideboard card, let's take into account the fact that mono black is just dumb right now thanks to Thoughtseize, Pack Rat and friends.

Lifebane was a major issue in the previous standard format as well. It's a big reason why Jund ran over post-M14 Standard.

Swap Intimidate with Flying and make it a Specter instead of a Zombie Warrior and the card is similarly as powerful. Intimidate in itself (as opposed to any sort of evasion, its P/T ratio and/or its ETB ability) isn't what's "breaking" the card. All that being said, I prefer WOTC push T2 cards and occasionally going a bit overboard than playing it safe 100% of the time. Otherwise, I'd never have any cards to put in my Cubes, EDH decks, etc.

Near-zero Intimidate cards see Modern/Legacy play. I'm not sure what your complaint is here.

 

[Crocodile]

Near-zero Intimidate cards see Modern/Legacy play. I'm not sure what your complaint is here.

Well there are kind of several conversations going on here. With regards to Sigma, I was mostly talking about limited. With regards to you, I agree with the general consensus that Lifebane Zombie was a PUSHED card (probably due to Thragtusk?). I'm just saying I'm glad it was pushed because the value of the card TO ME at its current power level exceeds how much I care about how its affected T2.

WOTC generally has a policy that says they'd rather push cards and fuck up from time to time than play it safe 100% of the time which would have avoided cards like Lifebane Zombie and other "mistakes" of the past. I feel every constructed season we, the Magic playing population, have a discussion which amounts to "WOW how could WOTC have printed card X, what were they thinking?!". I'm saying, in general, I'm glad all those "what were they thinking?!" cards exist. I sympathize with players when they lead to degenerate formats but as long as we can avoid those situations I say let that shit rock. A card can stink up T2 for 18 months but it will be fun to play with outside that context for years to come whereas a card that is 100% T2 safe is often worthless afterwards. This is to say nothing of the fact that if we nixed the top 10% of cards from each format, people would only complain about the new 10%

Have I made myself more clear?

 

[kirblar]

Well there are kind of several conversations going on here. With regards to Sigma, I was mostly talking about limited. With regards to you, I agree with the general consensus that Lifebane Zombie was a PUSHED card (probably due to Thragtusk?). I'm just saying I'm glad it was pushed because the value of the card TO ME at its current power level exceeds how much I care about how its affected T2.

WOTC generally has a policy that says they'd rather push cards and fuck up from time to time than play it safe 100% of the time which would have avoided cards like Lifebane Zombie and other "mistakes" of the past. I feel every constructed season we, the Magic playing population, have a discussion which amounts to "WOW how could WOTC have printed card X, what were they thinking?!". I'm saying, in general, I'm glad all those "what were they thinking?!" cards exist. I sympathize with players when they lead to degenerate formats but as long as we can avoid those situations I say let that shit rock. A card can stink up T2 for 18 months but it will be fun to play with outside that context for years to come whereas a card that is 100% T2 safe is often worthless afterwards. This is to say nothing of the fact that if we nixed the top 10% of cards from each format, people would only complain about the new 10%

Have I made myself more clear?

But killing Intimidate/Landwalk/Value-Added Color Hosers doesn't prevent overpowered cards from getting printed. It just means they won't be those types of cards.

 

[OnPoint]

Besides, it's not like either intimidate or fear was ever printed on that many creatures per set. It isn't really that huge of a change if this appears at common instead of Bladetusk Boar:

Fearsome Boar - 3R
Creature - Boar
Buffalo (This creature can't be blocked by creatures with power 2 or less)
3/2

I support this proudly.

 

[Crocodile]

But killing Intimidate/Landwalk/Value-Added Color Hosers doesn't prevent overpowered cards from getting printed. It just means they won't be those types of cards.

Ok I think we are talking past each other or arguing different, though related subjects. Are you saying that Lifebane Zombie is ONLY problematic because it has Intimidate? If everything else about the card was the same except the card had flying instead of intimidate the card would be fine to you?

 

[kirblar]

Ok I think we are talking past each other or arguing different, though related subjects. Are you saying that Lifebane Zombie is ONLY problematic because it has Intimidate? If everything else about the card was the same except the card had flying instead of intimidate the card would be fine to you?

Flying would be too good, it needed to be non-evasive.

 

[OnPoint]

Flying would be too good, it needed to be non-evasive.

Personally think it needed to Brain Maggot the card and not permanently exile it, but that's just me.