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Magic: The Gathering |OT3| Enchantment Under the Siege

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Firemind

Member
Huh? Didn't you know that's the way things work in paper magic as well? When the land becomes a creature, it becomes subject to the "A creature that you didn't control at the beginning of your latest turn can't attack or use abilities that use the tap symbol" (paraphrased). It's not that lands can tap for mana while summonning sick, but rather that creatures cannot, therefore your Muta-man is forced by the Silent Arbiters to go get some medicine and try again later.

If you knew and were being sarcastic, then the joke flew straight over my head.
What if I had multiple mutavaults?

Paper magic is a fluid process. Online, what frequently happens is that your opponent is dicking around, so you change tabs and do something else, and then you go back and have no clue what you were about to do. Like say you're in a situation where you play a mountain, tap out for a Koth and your opponent takes five minutes to respond to let Koth resolve. You want to animate a mountain and, shit, which mountain did I just play? (Chances are all basics have the same art in limited.)

I had a similar situation just recently. In an M15 draft, I played a Goblin Kaboomist turn two. On turn three I could have enchanted the mine token with Ensoul Artifact, but decided to wait a turn for the surprise factor. So on turn four I get another token and... uh, fuck, 50/50 chance to target the one that doesn't have summoning sickness. Suffice to say I chose poorly (mental note: the top token is the one that entered last). Paper magic doesn't care. You can simply say to your opponent you want to target the token that came into play last turn.

#firstworldproblems
 

bigkrev

Member
What if I had multiple mutavaults?

Paper magic is a fluid process. Online, what frequently happens is that your opponent is dicking around, so you change tabs and do something else, and then you go back and have no clue what you were about to do. Like say you're in a situation where you play a mountain, tap out for a Koth and your opponent takes five minutes to respond to let Koth resolve. You want to animate a mountain and, shit, which mountain did I just play? (Chances are all basics have the same art in limited.)

I had a similar situation just recently. In an M15 draft, I played a Goblin Kaboomist turn two. On turn three I could have enchanted the mine token with Ensoul Artifact, but decided to wait a turn for the surprise factor. So on turn four I get another token and... uh, fuck, 50/50 chance to target the one that doesn't have summoning sickness. Suffice to say I chose poorly (mental note: the top token is the one that entered last). Paper magic doesn't care. You can simply say to your opponent you want to target the token that came into play last turn.

#firstworldproblems

If you are playing with multiple arts or foils, I WILL keep track of which ones you play, and if you go to activate one that is summoning sick I will let you know/call a judge.
 

JulianImp

Member
What if I had multiple mutavaults?

Paper magic is a fluid process. Online, what frequently happens is that your opponent is dicking around, so you change tabs and do something else, and then you go back and have no clue what you were about to do. Like say you're in a situation where you play a mountain, tap out for a Koth and your opponent takes five minutes to respond to let Koth resolve. You want to animate a mountain and, shit, which mountain did I just play? (Chances are all basics have the same art in limited.)

I had a similar situation just recently. In an M15 draft, I played a Goblin Kaboomist turn two. On turn three I could have enchanted the mine token with Ensoul Artifact, but decided to wait a turn for the surprise factor. So on turn four I get another token and... uh, fuck, 50/50 chance to target the one that doesn't have summoning sickness. Suffice to say I chose poorly (mental note: the top token is the one that entered last). Paper magic doesn't care. You can simply say to your opponent you want to target the token that came into play last turn.

#firstworldproblems

Yeah, multiple Mutavaults wouldn't change a thing as long as you said something along the lines of "I animate one of the Multavaults I played before last turn" to your opponent. Animating without saying anything might result in your opponent saying "but that's the one you just played", so it's always better to make yourself clear whenever possible (unless you're going for a bluff gamble, I guess). This is probably one of the cases where having Magic Online take care of everything for you turns out to be a disadvantage.

@bigkrev: I'd probably do the same on competitive or professional REL events, but as long as my opponent says something that isn't unreasonable (ie: no "I want to keep my foil one on the table, so can I just swap it for my ugly nonfoil one?") I won't be going all rules lawyer on him/her. I'd rather have a game where both players communicate clearly than a pretend poker match where neither player talks and tries to do moves that can be misinterpreted to get an advantage. Actually, I'd be the kind of player who'd ask for clarification if anyone'd try to pull a sketchy move on me, since I'm not playing Magic for pulling off jedi mind tricks that rely on misdirection and creating player communication errors. Being a judge I know how much of a pain PCEs are to solve, and I'd say they're on a whole different level than an infraction that hinges on the game rules.
 

Firemind

Member
Since you're a judge, I've been meaning to ask about the current ruling concerning shortcuts and what's allowed as shortcuts.

If I have a foundry street denizen in play and a red creature comes into play, I have to announce the trigger. Correct? What if it's a Goblin Rabblemaster? I go to my combat phase and put a goblin token into play, then I attack with everything. Do I have to announce the pump trigger of Rabblemaster or is it assumed that it pumps itself when it attacks? Of course I want to be as clear as possible to avoid miscommunication, but sometimes I may just forget it in the heat of the moment.
 

ultron87

Member
You don't have to announce your Denizen or your Rabblemaster's pump trigger. They don't target and don't visually change the game state. As you long as you say "take 2" (or other appropriate amount of damage) when the creature hits your opponent or something like "so these two trade?" when it hits a creature you are all set as far as the triggers goes. On the other hand, you do need to put a Goblin token into play for Rabblemaster when you start combat and before you declare attacks to get your trigger, since it does cause a visual change.
 

JulianImp

Member
You don't have to announce your Denizen or your Rabblemaster's pump trigger. They don't target and don't visually change the game state. As you long as you say "take 2" (or other appropriate amount of damage) when the creature hits your opponent or something like "so these two trade?" when it hits a creature you are all set as far as the triggers goes. On the other hand, you do need to put a Goblin token into play for Rabblemaster when you start combat and before you declare attacks to get your trigger, since it does cause a visual change.

Yeah, they've worked a lot on tweaking the whole Missed Trigger section of the IPG, and I'd say the resulting changes were a nice improvement.

It's been a while since I last judged at a Magic event, though. As of late, I've been unable to attend to events, and the ones I did go to had little to no other participants. This probably means I've gotten a bit rusty with all things IPG-related, so I'll probably have to give them a read before I go back to judging.
 

Firemind

Member
You don't have to announce your Denizen or your Rabblemaster's pump trigger. They don't target and don't visually change the game state. As you long as you say "take 2" (or other appropriate amount of damage) when the creature hits your opponent or something like "so these two trade?" when it hits a creature you are all set as far as the triggers goes. On the other hand, you do need to put a Goblin token into play for Rabblemaster when you start combat and before you declare attacks to get your trigger, since it does cause a visual change.
Awesome. Thanks. A German at the GP warned me about missed triggers, but thankfully it seems I didn't do anything shady according to the rules.
 

JulianImp

Member
Awesome. Thanks. A German at the GP warned me about missed triggers, but thankfully it seems I didn't do anything shady according to the rules.

All regular penalties operate under the the presumption that you didn't do anything deliberately. If a judge investigation ends up revealing that you were just pretending to forget a trigger for some reason, then the penalty goes from Missed Trigger to Cheating which warrants a disqualification. The same holds true for the rest of the penalties, as well.
 

bigkrev

Member
Yeah, they've worked a lot on tweaking the whole Missed Trigger section of the IPG, and I'd say the resulting changes were a nice improvement.

It's been a while since I last judged at a Magic event, though. As of late, I've been unable to attend to events, and the ones I did go to had little to no other participants. This probably means I've gotten a bit rusty with all things IPG-related, so I'll probably have to give them a read before I go back to judging.

If you can work up to Level 2, you should be in massive demand for Store-run PTQs next year~
 

Kerrinck

Member
All regular penalties operate under the the presumption that you didn't do anything deliberately. If a judge investigation ends up revealing that you were just pretending to forget a trigger for some reason, then the penalty goes from Missed Trigger to Cheating which warrants a disqualification. The same holds true for the rest of the penalties, as well.
~
Somewhat related but let's say my opponent attacks with 9 points worth of damage and he says: take 8. Since I'm not paying too much attention, I say fine.
Who gets punished in a situation like this?
 

ultron87

Member
~
Somewhat related but let's say my opponent attacks with 9 points worth of damage and he says: take 8. Since I'm not paying too much attention, I say fine.
Who gets punished in a situation like this?

Most of the time you'll probably just point it out, fix the life totals, and not call a judge.

If you do call a judge, it depends. If he says "take 8" because, for example, he is forgetting a Foundry Street Denizen trigger, then you're under no obligation to fix it and no one gets penalized. It is just a missed trigger.

If he just has 9 printed power on the board and reads it as 8 and you agree, and record the new life totals but then later on you realize your mistake and call a judge your opponent will probably get a Game Rules Violation warning and you'll get a Failure to Maintain Game State warning since it is something you should have noticed. If the judge considers it reasonable they can back the game up to the point of the damage and get the correct values recorded. But if a few turns have gone by or a lot of actions have taken place you'll probably just play on with the "incorrect" life total. They can't just do a partial fix and fix the life totals, since it is possible your decisions since the error have been affected by the assumed life totals.

Edit: On further thought it might actually be a Communication Policy Violation instead of a GRV/FTMGS. Since this is really incorrectly presenting derived information (the total power of attacking creatures). All the rewind stuff still applies. So that would just be a warning on the attacking player.

I really need to stop being lazy and get my Level 1 cert. I know way too much about this for being a "Level 0". I just really enjoy listening to Judgecast and reading and guessing the results to scenarios on Knowledge Pool and Cranial Insertion.
 
Man, AEtherspouts is insane, but it's so easy for your opponent to play around if they know you have it. I have to aggressively counter thoughtseizes when I otherwise wouldn't, and revealing it off of courser is just the worst feeling ever.
 

JulianImp

Member
If you can work up to Level 2, you should be in massive demand for Store-run PTQs next year~
I'm basically a L1+ judge anyway, since I took the L1 test back when we were required to know the IPG and how to work in Competitive and Professional REL events. All I'd need is to look into mentoring judge candidates, but I certainly don't have the time for that nowadays due to getting more serious about my career as an indie game designer. The changes they made to what L1s can and are expected to do is one of the reasons I've been barely able to squeeze into competitive events, since as a L1 I have little to no priority in Competitive REL events, where L2s are prefered.

~
Somewhat related but let's say my opponent attacks with 9 points worth of damage and he says: take 8. Since I'm not paying too much attention, I say fine.
Who gets punished in a situation like this?
Judging is not about punishing players, but rather about making sure the game works as it should and educate players on their mistakes. In this case, both players are required by the game rules to make sure damage is properly represented, since he should've noticed that he should have dealt eight damage, and you should have corrected him (don't even get me started on saying "fine" on purpose since it'd benefit you, since that's a different issue). Unless repeat ofenses have happened prior to this, I think both players would end up with a warning: you for Failure to Maintain Game State, and your opponent for Game Rule Violation.

If both of you write down eight damage and one of you notices the mistake in a reasonable time frame (most often within a turn), it could be corrected. However, if the mistake takes too long to be noticed the judge would probably decide to keep the game going. Either way, penalties would still be handed out.

If you somehow said "fine" and wrote down the nine damage you thought you'd take, but your opponent wrote eight, then the discrepancy would have to be fixed by doing some investigation on past life total changes and board states. Here's where keeping track of life totals on paper is infinitely better than using dice or phone apps, since they allow both you and us judges to check past changes to spot where the discrepancies could've originated.

EDIT: Ultron's right in that if the damage was improperly represented due to a missed trigger like the Denizen's, then you are in no obligation of pointing out that you should be taking nine damage, since it's your opponent's responsibility to account for his Denizen's extra point of power. My explanation only works if he had to deal nine damage but he said you'd be taking eight instead. I'll look into Player Communication Violation, though, but I think that won't work as long as the effect comes from players improperly measuring the damage you'd be taking.
 
So people like me that keep life totals and thoughtseize information etc entirely in their head are just jerks.


I play miracles! It's good practice to try remembering everything!


I do use paper at events 5k+, though. Don't want to take chances at that point.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
What if I had multiple mutavaults?

Paper magic is a fluid process. Online, what frequently happens is that your opponent is dicking around, so you change tabs and do something else, and then you go back and have no clue what you were about to do. Like say you're in a situation where you play a mountain, tap out for a Koth and your opponent takes five minutes to respond to let Koth resolve. You want to animate a mountain and, shit, which mountain did I just play? (Chances are all basics have the same art in limited.)

I had a similar situation just recently. In an M15 draft, I played a Goblin Kaboomist turn two. On turn three I could have enchanted the mine token with Ensoul Artifact, but decided to wait a turn for the surprise factor. So on turn four I get another token and... uh, fuck, 50/50 chance to target the one that doesn't have summoning sickness. Suffice to say I chose poorly (mental note: the top token is the one that entered last). Paper magic doesn't care. You can simply say to your opponent you want to target the token that came into play last turn.

#firstworldproblems

You just right click on something to see if its summoning sick.
 

kirblar

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";127140413]So people like me that keep life totals and thoughtseize information etc entirely in their head are just jerks.[/QUOTE]
You're just being silly.
 

ultron87

Member
EDIT: Ultron's right in that if the damage was improperly represented due to a missed trigger like the Denizen's, then you are in no obligation of pointing out that you should be taking nine damage, since it's your opponent's responsibility to account for his Denizen's extra point of power. My explanation only works if he had to deal nine damage but he said you'd be taking eight instead. I'll look into Player Communication Violation, though, but I think that won't work as long as the effect comes from players improperly measuring the damage you'd be taking.

You are probably right. I may have been thinking of the thing they added to Drawing Extra Cards recently that says that if there was a GRV or Communication Error immediately before the infraction it isn't DEC and extending that to GRVs.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";127140413]So people like me that keep life totals and thoughtseize information etc entirely in their head are just jerks.

I play miracles! It's good practice to try remembering everything!

I do use paper at events 5k+, though. Don't want to take chances at that point.[/QUOTE]

You should just be aware that if there is a discrepancy between you and your opponent's thoughts on the life total things are way more likely to go in the favor of someone that has been writing stuff down.

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";127141835]Is there a rule against bringing a deck entirely in toploaders?[/QUOTE]

As long as you can shuffle it effectively and you can't tell cards apart by looking at their backs you are fine.
 
You should just be aware that if there is a discrepancy between you and your opponent's thoughts on the life total things are way more likely to go in the favor of someone that has been writing stuff down.

Yeah, serious tournaments I use paper and wind up playing quite a bit faster because of it.

As long as you can shuffle it effectively and you can't tell cards apart by looking at their backs you are fine.
Awwww yeah. Time to figure out which deck has the most shuffle effects.
 

bigkrev

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";127140413]So people like me that keep life totals and thoughtseize information etc entirely in their head are just jerks.


I play miracles! It's good practice to try remembering everything!


I do use paper at events 5k+, though. Don't want to take chances at that point.[/QUOTE]

If I had no morals, I would constantly mark your lifetotal down an extra point or 2 every time I damaged you, because when you called a judge over, I would have the pen and paper and you would have nothing, so they would side with me. You are just asking to be scammed by not using pen and paper. You can use dice at FNM level or prereleases, but anything else pen and paper is all but mandatory.


[QUOTE="God's Beard!";127141835]Is there a rule against bringing a deck entirely in toploaders?[/QUOTE]

A judge can ask you to remove your deck from Toploaders (or any kind of sleeves, really) if there are complaints that it is too hard to shuffle. In general, if your showing up to a Type 1 or Legacy tournament playing a 60 card deck, there shouldn't be problems. If you show up with Battle of Wits or something, you are probably going to be told to remove them
 
If I had no morals, I would constantly mark your lifetotal down an extra point or 2 every time I damaged you, because when you called a judge over, I would have the pen and paper and you would have nothing, so they would side with me. You are just asking to be scammed by not using pen and paper. You can use dice at FNM level or prereleases, but anything else pen and paper is all but mandatory.

Like I said, anything that's a 5k or bigger I use paper. I just play the local weeklies with nothing as good practice for remembering information.
 

ultron87

Member
If I had no morals, I would constantly mark your lifetotal down an extra point or 2 every time I damaged you, because when you called a judge over, I would have the pen and paper and you would have nothing, so they would side with me. You are just asking to be scammed by not using pen and paper. You can use dice at FNM level or prereleases, but anything else pen and paper is all but mandatory.

They wouldn't just side with you by default even if you had paper and the opponent didn't. You'd almost certainly be asked to explain, based on the game state, where all that damage came from. Then the hypothetical no morals you gets DQed for cheating! Hooray!
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
This works on non-creature permanents? TIL something.

Yes, it will say "Newly Controlled" even on non-creature permanents. Its one of those things you have to know to play a Mutavault deck.
 

kirblar

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";127152263]Man, these planeswalker decks are so much fun. There's nothing quite like a turn 3 Nissa to put a clock on someone.[/QUOTE]
I love playing an Ashiok into a Caryatid deck. :p
 

rexor0717

Member
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";127156754]Yup. I've been trying to trade for a second set for my girlfriend, but nobody's giving them up.

edit: NOBLE HIERARCH IS SEVENTY DOLLARS WTF

it was 25 last year when I sold my playset :-([/QUOTE]

They had no concept that card would be so in demand. But there was no excuse to not reprint it in M14.
 

Yeef

Member
It shot up a bunch when Deathrite got banned, if I remember correctly.

They didn't reprint it in M14, because it has exalted. They could have reprinted it in M13 though. Probably a little more efficient of a mana dork than they wanted in standard at the time.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
It shot up a bunch when Deathrite got banned, if I remember correctly.

They didn't reprint it in M14, because it has exalted. They could have reprinted it in M13 though. Probably a little more efficient of a mana dork than they wanted in standard at the time.

I'm sure he meant M13.
 

aidan

Hugo Award Winning Author and Editor
It shot up a bunch when Deathrite got banned, if I remember correctly.

They didn't reprint it in M14, because it has exalted. They could have reprinted it in M13 though. Probably a little more efficient of a mana dork than they wanted in standard at the time.

I'm sort of hoping that M16 will be a catch-all for necessary reprints. One last hurrah before the format changes. Standard be-damned.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Ah, I meant M13. Yeah, did they ever give any reason for not reprinting it though?

I think M13 was the set that did not have a traditional mana dork at all, so it was probably a design thing.
 
Ah, I meant M13. Yeah, did they ever give any reason for not reprinting it though?

Exalted was only in white and black in M13. In any case, Noble Hierarch is an odd fit in a set where green wouldn't have any particular affinity with blue. Now if it tapped for R instead of U, it maybe could have fit outside of Alara, since it would be tapping for G and its two allies.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Another likely answer was that Noble Hierarch wasn't $75 at the time so they didn't print it if they saw no need for it.
 

ultron87

Member
I would definitely like to see some sort of playable Brainstorm-ish effect in Khans if they do indeed do Fetchlands. The synergy there is a nice thing for players to learn. It probably won't happen though, because they've gotten so cautious with those kind of cards in Standard. For good reason, of course.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
I would definitely like to see some sort of playable Brainstorm-ish effect in Khans if they do indeed do Fetchlands. The synergy there is a nice thing for players to learn. It probably won't happen though, because they've gotten so cautious with those kind of cards in Standard. For good reason, of course.

The best effect like that they seem willing to have around is Serum Visions, which wasn't even reprinted in the Scry block.
 
I'm just wondering how far they will go with red exile/card draw. Hope to see more of it on Khans.

No temporary draw cards have seen major tournament play, so they are still OK with it. I expect that we'll see one card with it every set, or at least every block.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
No temporary draw cards have seen major tournament play, so they are still OK with it. I expect that we'll see one card with it every set, or at least every block.

The problem is that the effect HAS to be a Planeswalker ability like Chandra's to be useful. Flamespeaker sees no play because you have to buff him to get the cards and then you don't have any mana to play the spell.
 
Oh right, I forgot about Chandra, Pyromaster. Anyway, in limited at least, I found Act on Impulse to be surprisingly useful, so it can work even with mana upfront.
 

Angry Grimace

Two cannibals are eating a clown. One turns to the other and says "does something taste funny to you?"
Flamespeaker would be broken in half with a Sword of Feast and Famine attached to it.
 
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