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[keeblerdrow]

Zach Jesse, the subject of some level of controversy after his recent Top 8 finish in GP Atlantic City due to his past, has posted the following on Reddit.

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/35q0yx/in_light_of_recent_discussion_a_post_by_zach_jesse/

Yes, god forbid we just summarily disallow him from every coming near "us and our children" at Magic tournaments ever again. People calling for "discretionary lifetime banning him" just in case he gets rapey again or he besmirches our already tainted player base make me sad. And a little angry.

Top of the page. Shit.

In other news, I'm play testing the shit out of an assault formation deck idea I've had bouncing around. The largest problem with the card is having a deck that is still good even if you don't have it on the board. Oh, and the tremendous amount of enchantment hate going around right now.

 

[OnPoint]

TBF, Serum Visions always had bad art.

No disagreement there.

Why not get Terese Nielson to do something like this:

Bonus if she can redo the dude pooping

Edit:

Look at how much better this looks

 

["God's Beard!"]

Zach Jesse, the subject of some level of controversy after his recent Top 8 finish in GP Atlantic City due to his past, has posted the following on Reddit.

http://www.reddit.com/r/magicTCG/comments/35q0yx/in_light_of_recent_discussion_a_post_by_zach_jesse/

Shameful admissions from a convicted rapist. Will no one stop this man's terrorism of the Magic community?

The way he flaunts other articles depicting his negative impact on other areas in his life is just sickening. How can anyone be so heartless? It's a wonder he was ever let out of prison.

God, he even admits to making a U-turn at a no-u-turn zone. Probably saw some pedestrians he wanted to run over on the other side of the street. Who knows what these people think.


Patrick Chapin
‏@thepchapin
Be a good human, don't hurt people, and focus on doing what makes you happy. Some people will never give you a chance, but some will.

 

[Joe Molotov]

I'm going to the Dallas Open this weekend. I pinky swear not to do any crimes if I make Top 8.

 

[kirblar]

Can people stop straw-manning the "let's DCI Ban him" thing?

That was never an argument put out by the people who helped publicize it, yet it's the one people keep railing against.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The only correct answer is for Wizards to just ignore it.

 

["God's Beard!"]

It's really painful, but I think I'm going to cut Atarka and go from 4CDC back to Sultai. He's insanely powerful and I like having the double dragon mondo-combo as an out against GW Devotion if the game goes too long, but I don't know that it's worth it. Cutting three scry-lands is a real cost.

If I swap him, it'll be for Pharika to fight other megamorph decks, the 4th Deathmist to make my dredge cards more powerful or I'll move a Stratus Dancer into the main. That card is just beautiful.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Can people stop straw-manning the "let's DCI Ban him" thing?

That was never an argument put out by the people who helped publicize it, yet it's the one people keep railing against.

That's because there's a not-insignificant number of people who called for exactly that. Sheldon Menery went so far as to make cracks about hanging him on Twitter. There was a LOT of vitriol about him on social media; you can't just look at the tenor of the conversation from the more level-headed.

 

[Joe Molotov]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";163708651]It's really painful, but I think I'm going to cut Atarka and go from 4CDC back to Sultai. He's insanely powerful and I like having the double dragon mondo-combo as an out against GW Devotion if the game goes too long, but I don't know that it's worth it. Cutting three scry-lands is a real cost.

If I swap him, it'll be for Pharika to fight other megamorph decks, the 4th Deathmist to make my dredge cards more powerful or I'll move a Stratus Dancer into the main. That card is just beautiful.[/QUOTE]

Check your privilege. >_<

 

[Angry Grimace]

Check your privilege. >_<

Ojutai and Silumgar are male, the rest are ladies.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Ojutai and Silumgar are male, the rest are ladies.

Ah I was thinking Atarka was, too.

 

[SigmasonicX]

*tips fedora to Atarka*
I apologize milady.

 

[Firemind]

Man, I wish Paul Cheon was sitting next to me. Where are all the Overruns and Rolling Thunders?

 

[Hero]

I like how he doesn't deny his crimes but because he claims to give back to the community it's cool with some of you guys.

 

[ironmang]

I like how he doesn't deny his crimes but because he claims to give back to the community it's cool with some of you guys.

I was under the impression most people saw having this guy in the tournament a non-issue since his crime was over a decade ago and he already paid for it.

 

[Firemind]

If I read his post correctly, he served three months in jail. I mean, I dunno.

 

[OnPoint]

Guys stop ignoring my awesome Serum Visions hack jo...

*tips fedora to Atarka*
I apologize milady.

:lol

Worth it.

 

[elrechazado]

I like how he doesn't deny his crimes but because he claims to give back to the community it's cool with some of you guys.

I like how you have zero regard for the possibility of criminal rehabilitation, and as an aside, that you seem to have not read his response.

Can people stop straw-manning the "let's DCI Ban him" thing?

That was never an argument put out by the people who helped publicize it, yet it's the one people keep railing against.

Levin - who started this crusade:
"My advocacy on this issue has been consistent: I think rapists have no place in the Magic community. We should exclude them."

 

[kirblar]

I like how you have zero regard for the possibility of criminal rehabilitation, and as an aside, that you seem to have not read his response.

"My advocacy on this issue has been consistent: I think rapists have no place in the Magic community. We should exclude them."

You can't rehab sexual predators to not be sexual predators. Hopefully they stay straight, but it's not wrong that people view them as a threat.

Note he says community - not Wizards. He's not asking for a DCI ban.

Levin - who started this crusade:

That is a lie. Stop telling it.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Why don't we just execute him then?

 

[charlequin]

This is why it didn't end up in MM2015?

Given the respective timeframes involved it's way more likely that it didn't wind up in MM15 for ~reasons~ and this was the kinda-sorta attempt to mitigate that choice.

If so, we could estimate how many Serum Visions will be added to the world (4 promos per event, 4 Fridays in a month...).

We can compare it to MM15 allocations. Modern Masters 2015 has 101 commons; there are 10 commons per pack (approximately) and 24 packs per box, which means (on average) 2.4 per box. Core stores were allocated 12 boxes, so around 30 Serum Visions per allocation, were it printed in the set.

Conversely, with 5 per event, the average store will get 20 copies of the promo. If we assume the store allocation is around half the total supply (with the rest going to events like the GP weekend) the FNM promo would be introducing one-third as many copies as the whole of MM15.

(Someone correct me if I make a horribly flawed assumption here.)

 

[charlequin]

Zach Jesse, the subject of some level of controversy after his recent Top 8 finish in GP Atlantic City due to his past, has posted the following on Reddit.

"Hey guys, even though I'm a rapist, I suffered basically no personal or professional consequences, so it galls me that my actions could possibly start affecting me now in a public, social hobby activity, and I basically think I'm more important than anyone else who might be affected by my presence. Fuck this guy.

Why don't we just execute him then?

Why don't we stop equating the right to play a children's card game in professional events without being pressured to leave to an inalienable right on the level of life and freedom?

 

[Sequence Six]

Guys stop ignoring my awesome Serum Visions hack jo...

I honestly had a reply to it (it looks sweet!) all typed up about missing old, distinctive styles of art on Magic cards but then I decided it sounded whiny so I didn't post it.

But yeah, something that different would be cool. And FNM promos aren't as widely circulated so it wouldn't really hurt the art department's need for homogenization.

 

[Hero]

I was under the impression most people saw having this guy in the tournament a non-issue since his crime was over a decade ago and he already paid for it.

There is an argument to be made as to if he actually paid any significant price for his actions.

If I read his post correctly, he served three months in jail. I mean, I dunno.

You're right, three months in jail and then went on to get scholarships to law school is an appropriate punishment for rape.

I like how you have zero regard for the possibility of criminal rehabilitation, and as an aside, that you seem to have not read his response.

Levin - who started this crusade:
"My advocacy on this issue has been consistent: I think rapists have no place in the Magic community. We should exclude them."

As kirblar said, sexual assault is a completely different type of crime. Or have you never heard of sex offenders committing the same crimes even after they serve their term.

Why don't we just execute him then?

Yeah, because that's what people are asking for. How do you type crap like this with a straight face?

 

[red13th]

So much better than Semen Visions, what were they thinking.

 

[Angry Grimace]

As kirblar said, sexual assault is a completely different type of crime. Or have you never heard of sex offenders committing the same crimes even after they serve their term.

Yeah, because that's what people are asking for. How do you type crap like this with a straight face?

Because I can't possibly envision anyone would take that seriously? Have I ever posted anything that would ever lead you to believe I legitimately was suggesting we execute Zach Jesse? Like really?

The problem is that you're all acting like recidivism is somehow unique to sexual assault crimes, when its not at all.

 

[charlequin]

The problem is that you're all acting like recidivism is somehow unique to sexual assault crimes, when its not.

Recidivism isn't even really all that relevant, though. No one has to actually be worried about him leaping across a table to rape them for this to be a real issue.

The first question is whether this guy is in any way someone we'd want to hold up as in any way a worthwhile or positive role model. I really, really hope that everyone could agree that this one is a big "no" -- even in the most positive possible read, the guy may be "reformed" and do good stuff now, but he doesn't even bring up any kind of restitution or even apology to his victim.

Then the followup question is, knowing that this person who's a terrible example is trying to participate in the community, what do we do? I know that if I was personal overlord and master of the DCI I'd go scorched-earth because the last year has worn out every bit of patience I ever had for reddit misogynerds, but in reality that option isn't even within field goal distance of on the table. Instead, we're talking about one possible official solution (actively keep focus and spotlight from him if he performs well in an event) and one community solution (tell everybody loudly about his actions, to make sure that everyone is aware.)

The first item on that list (downplay coverage) is barely even a punishment. If he's still able to compete -- and win prizes -- then all it really does is offset Wizards' PR hit a little.

The second one is already having more actual consequences, but they're natural consequences from people reacting to a piece of legally public information. Given that he doesn't seem interested in bowing out even if people metaphorically spit on him, and that these natural consequences have had so little effect on any other part of his life, I'm hard-pressed to find sympathy here.

Ultimately this really does get back to the lifetime-bans-for-cheating discussions. When we identify a cheater and ban them forever, it's true that we're discounting any possibility of reform. The thing is that we actually don't care, because we're talking about an elective entertainment activity, which no one person has any absolute right to but which the broad community of upstanding participants don't want to see ruined by bad apples. If someone gets a lifetime ban and really turns into a completely upstanding, moral, scrupulous person five years down the road, they still don't deserve to get allowed back in and it's no great moral injustice if they aren't, because our primary goal is protecting the community from the toxicity of cheaters. In this case, taking steps to marginalize this guy doesn't take into account whether he's "reformed," but it doesn't matter -- his presence in the community is inherently toxic because of his history, and for that community needs to protect itself by pushing him out. If that isn't perfectly, divinely "fair," it really doesn't matter -- it's no great injustice to him and it'll leave the community much healthier and more welcoming in the future.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Sex offenders have the lowest rates of recidivism by far. Repeat criminals are a massive part of the prison population, and a very small proportion of those are sex offenders. Most crimes fall in the low 70th percentile when it comes to recidivism. Rapists fall under 5%. There are obvious problems with these measurements, but it's hard to imply that sex offenders are worth the incredible levels of fearmongering generated at every opportunity. And yet there's no car thief registry or I beat my wife registry.

The only criminals who get their status plastered everywhere after serving their time are sex offenders, the group least likely to have a direct impact on the community. Nice little online hitlist for any asshole that feels like being justified killing a stranger.

If you're going to kick this guy out of the community, you might as well run background checks to apply for DCI numbers.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Recidivism isn't even really all that relevant, though. No one has to actually be worried about him leaping across a table to rape them for this to be a real issue.

The first question is whether this guy is in any way someone we'd want to hold up as in any way a worthwhile or positive role model. I really, really hope that everyone could agree that this one is a big "no" -- even in the most positive possible read, the guy may be "reformed" and do good stuff now, but he doesn't even bring up any kind of restitution or even apology to his victim.

Then the followup question is, knowing that this person who's a terrible example is trying to participate in the community, what do we do? I know that if I was personal overlord and master of the DCI I'd go scorched-earth because the last year has worn out every bit of patience I ever had for reddit misogynerds, but in reality that option isn't even within field goal distance of on the table. Instead, we're talking about one possible official solution (actively keep focus and spotlight from him if he performs well in an event) and one community solution (tell everybody loudly about his actions, to make sure that everyone is aware.)

The first item on that list (downplay coverage) is barely even a punishment. If he's still able to compete -- and win prizes -- then all it really does is offset Wizards' PR hit a little.

The second one is already having more actual consequences, but they're natural consequences from people reacting to a piece of legally public information. Given that he doesn't seem interested in bowing out even if people metaphorically spit on him, and that these natural consequences have had so little effect on any other part of his life, I'm hard-pressed to find sympathy here.

But it it comes back to the Chapin argument. Its hypocritical to bar one player for his history of harmful conduct and not another's history of harmful conduct.

And yes, I've heard the argument that, "well Chapin isn't a problem because all he did was deal drugs." Except Edward Romesburg is unquestionably dead due to his association with Chapin's drug ring regardless of whether Chapin's was personally responsible. Preventing people from dying of overdoses and drug addiction is why those laws exist?

 

[kirblar]

But it it comes back to the Chapin argument. Its hypocritical to bar one player for his history of harmful conduct and not another's history of harmful conduct.

And yes, I've heard the argument that, "well Chapin isn't a problem because all he did was deal drugs." Except Edward Romesburg is unquestionably dead due to his association with Chapin's drug ring regardless of whether Chapin's was personally responsible. Preventing people from dying of overdoses and drug addiction is why those laws exist?

Chapin's history doesn't make him a potential threat to those around him. Once you've shown that assaulting and sexually violating another person for personal pleasure is something that gets you off, you've put your cards on the table and people can and should take that information into account when interacting with you.

 

[charlequin]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";163724533]And yet there's no car thief registry or I beat my wife registry.[/quote]

Sex offender registries are a horrible idea, but that doesn't really have anything to do with this situation. "We should not implement a governmental list which creates legal obstacles to someone for the rest of their lives" does not imply that we should never, ever impose social sanction on people above and beyond the strict legal punishments assigned to them by the law.

If you're going to kick this guy out of the community, you might as well run background checks to apply for DCI numbers.

We socially sanction known cheaters, bad sports, and even just aggressively smelly and rude people outside the DCI guidelines, I'm not sure how this is any less reasonable.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Chapin's history doesn't make him a potential threat to those around him.

I dunno, dude's a Pro Tour champion. I'd definitely consider him a threat if I was facing him down in the swiss.

Sex offender registries are a horrible idea, but that doesn't really have anything to do with this situation. "We should not implement a governmental list which creates legal obstacles to someone for the rest of their lives" does not imply that we should never, ever impose social sanction on people above and beyond the strict legal punishments assigned to them by the law.

We socially sanction known cheaters, bad sports, and even just aggressively smelly and rude people outside the DCI guidelines, I'm not sure how this is any less reasonable.

I have a problem because of how easy it is to get this information without this dude doing anything. It pisses me off. For all we know, there's a ton of people playing MTG with a history of violent crime but have been perfectly sane for a decade and don't get any crap about it because it doesn't set off alarm bells every time they walk into a room.

 

[charlequin]

But it it comes back to the Chapin argument. Its hypocritical to bar one player for his history of harmful conduct and not another's history of harmful conduct.

"If you respond to situation {X} in one way, but different yet in some way similar situation {Y} in a different way, you're a hypocrite!" No. It is not hard to draw a line of division between these cases.

And yes, I've heard the argument that, "well Chapin isn't a problem because all he did was deal drugs." Except Edward Romesburg is unquestionably dead due to his association with Chapin's drug ring regardless of whether Chapin's was personally responsible. Preventing people from dying of overdoses and drug addiction is why those laws exist?

If I actually believed Chapin was a murderer (much less if he was convicted as one) we'd be having a different conversation, but since I'm not an overly-excitable teen redditor who discovered you can look up court documents online, I don't particularly believe that.

 

[Angry Grimace]

"If you respond to situation {X} in one way, but different yet in some way similar situation {Y} in a different way, you're a hypocrite!" No. It is not hard to draw a line of division between these cases.



If I actually believed Chapin was a murderer (much less if he was convicted as one) we'd be having a different conversation, but since I'm not an overly-excitable teen redditor who discovered you can look up court documents online, I don't particularly believe that.

I didn't say Chapin murdered Romesburg, did I? You're creating a strawman by responding to it as such. What I said was that people involved in underground drug rings can and do get killed, including Romesburg. So then, I ask, what is the actual purpose in banning Jesse and not other types of criminals who cause serious harm to society?

And if you want to argue, "well Situation X and Y are different and I can draw the line," then I'd like to hear what that line is as to why a drug kingpin shouldn't be banned from Magic or a hypothetical wife beater or drunk driver shouldn't.

Chapin's history doesn't make him a potential threat to those around him. Once you've shown that assaulting and sexually violating another person for personal pleasure is something that gets you off, you've put your cards on the table and people can and should take that information into account when interacting with you.

Except now your point is just contradictory because keeping him off camera doesn't do anything to mitigate him as a present danger.

 

[Firemind]

Damn. Evincar's Justice is basically Rolling Thunder. So good.

It's actually painful to watch Caleb Durward draft Tempest Remastered. He's actively passing removal for Reanimates and random creatures, including Spike Feeders that cost double green which he may not even play. He's also playing Spinal Graft over pretty much anything. Also, Whispers of the Muse is pretty underrated. It can take over the late game, especially if you play a reasonable amount of removal.

Guys stop ignoring my awesome Serum Visions hack jo...

As much as I like Terese Nielsen, I kind of miss the comic book look of yonder years. It's why I still prefer the OG Lightning Bolt and Brainstorm. Especially Serra Angel, Sengir Vampire, Shivan Dragon, Birds of Paradise and, uh, what is the most iconic blue creature in A/B/U? The modern versions don't hold a candle to the iconic art of the originals.

 

[kirblar]

Mahamoti and the other blue Djinns/Efreets, probably.

Except now your point is just contradictory because keeping him off camera doesn't do anything to mitigate him as a present danger.

No, it's not - there are two separate things being argued- the second one of which is "Wizards, please don't actively use this guy to promote your brand."

 

[divisionbyzorro]

The truth is that you're all right. It's silly, I know, but that's the way I see it. When I boil down the arguments that I'm hearing, it comes down to a case of "people can change" vs "but they actually don't." The only reason we're even arguing this is because the incident in question took place over a decade ago. Some of us believe that's enough time to change who a person is, and some don't. In truth, nobody actually knows.

I don't believe in the scarlet letter approach. Branding someone as a criminal for the rest of their lives isn't a positive thing to do. But at the same time, it's still something that happened, and we don't have to pretend like it didn't. I personally have a hard time knowing what I believe should happen; having a daughter myself is certainly tainting my perspective in that there is an actual war of thought in my brain on how to handle this sort of situation that I can't bring to a resolution right now. I just know that it's super complicated and super emotional, and there's no easy way through it.

You're not wrong if you think that he has no place in Magic, but you're also not wrong to think that people can change. Unfortunately, when it comes to how to assign consequences to actions, we as a species tend to never actually get it right.

 

[OnPoint]

As much as I like Terese Nielsen, I kind of miss the comic book look of yonder years. It's why I still prefer the OG Lightning Bolt and Brainstorm. Especially Serra Angel, Sengir Vampire, Shivan Dragon, Birds of Paradise and, uh, what is the most iconic blue creature in A/B/U? The modern versions don't hold a candle to the iconic art of the originals.

I just think special artists should be used for special prints. OG Brainstorm is awful. And I LOVE Ice Age.

I don't know if I miss the comic book style specifically, but I miss the variety in the art. Even the more impressionist or abstract stuff being missing really removes some of the spirit of how the game felt.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The truth is that you're all right. It's silly, I know, but that's the way I see it. When I boil down the arguments that I'm hearing, it comes down to a case of "people can change" vs "but they actually don't." The only reason we're even arguing this is because the incident in question took place over a decade ago. Some of us believe that's enough time to change who a person is, and some don't. In truth, nobody actually knows.

I don't believe in the scarlet letter approach. Branding someone as a criminal for the rest of their lives isn't a positive thing to do. But at the same time, it's still something that happened, and we don't have to pretend like it didn't. I personally have a hard time knowing what I believe should happen; having a daughter myself is certainly tainting my perspective in that there is an actual war of thought in my brain on how to handle this sort of situation that I can't bring to a resolution right now. I just know that it's super complicated and super emotional, and there's no easy way through it.

You're not wrong if you think that he has no place in Magic, but you're also not wrong to think that people can change. Unfortunately, when it comes to how to assign consequences to actions, we as a species tend to never actually get it right.

If Wizards wants to sit this guy down in a committee and look at his record to determine whether he should get to play, I'm okay with that. Its their brand. I just wish it would apply to all types of crimes. I just don't believe there's a rational way to assign specific levels of moral culpability of any given criminal act. There are very few victimless crimes in this world (I mean, growing your own weed or something is one of them, so obviously there are some).

Mahamoti and the other blue Djinns/Efreets, probably.

No, it's not - there are two separate things being argued- the second one of which is "Wizards, please don't actively use this guy to promote your brand."

If you asked me to remember a specific blue creature in Limited Edition/Revised, its probably Sea Serpent. Seriously, I never remember playing any other ones.

 

[The Technomancer]

I think people can change and for all that I know he can change. I certainly wouldn't wish a ruined life on him. With that said I am sympathetic to Charlequins points that his coverage is kind of a PR problem in general and a perception problem for Magic specifically

 

[red13th]

Okay could someone with free time draft my cube on Cube Tutor a few times please? I've made a bunch of changes and pick priorities are kinda off right now but I always force the same decks so it doesn't really fix anything. Thanks.

 

[elrechazado]

Because I can't possibly envision anyone would take that seriously? Have I ever posted anything that would ever lead you to believe I legitimately was suggesting we execute Zach Jesse? Like really?

The problem is that you're all acting like recidivism is somehow unique to sexual assault crimes, when its not at all.

Pretty much. The burden of proof is on anyone claiming this guy remains a danger to anyone. And accepting a plea bargain to a lesser charge does not make one a rapist. But let's not let facts cloud this issue. We could also go for pages on the practice of prosecutors using plea bargains as leverage to get pleas. It's one reason I'm no longer a prosecutor. But I actually prosecuted sexual crimes for years before I moved on.

I don't know the details of why he pled to what he did. I do believe that a mob reaction to any former criminal is the kind of garbage that used to be the province of the law and order right wingers.

And yes, anyone running a tourney can restrict anyone they want because mtg is not an inalienable right.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I think people can change and for all that I know he can change. I certainly wouldn't wish a ruined life on him. With that said I am sympathetic to Charlequins points that his coverage is kind of a PR problem in general and a perception problem for Magic specifically

I'm responding mostly to the current of thought calling for him to be banned and/or totally shunned). I agree that there's really no good reason to feature him in coverage, and no harm done in excluding him (coverage is for the benefit of the viewers, not the players, after all).

 

[Hackworth]

I came in here to ask about Keranos in EDH but

Why don't we just execute him then?

Wait, shunning a guy from official tournaments is equivalent to executing him?

Shiit, you guys play too much Magic.

 

[kirblar]

Pretty much. The burden of proof is on anyone claiming this guy remains a danger to anyone. And accepting a plea bargain to a lesser charge does not make one a rapist. But let's not let facts cloud this issue. We could also go for pages on the practice of prosecutors using plea bargains as leverage to get pleas. It's one reason I'm no longer a prosecutor. But I actually prosecuted sexual crimes for years before I moved on.

I don't know the details of why he pled to what he did. I do believe that a mob reaction to any former criminal is the kind of garbage that used to be the province of the law and order right wingers.

And yes, anyone running a tourney can restrict anyone they want because mtg is not an inalienable right.

"But we can't be sure he's a rapist despite him pleading guilty to it" REALLY?

 

[divisionbyzorro]

"But we can't be sure he's a rapist despite him pleading guilty to it" REALLY?

Step outside of this situation for a second. Don't think about Zach. Do you honestly believe that everyone who accepts a plea bargain is guilty?

 

[elrechazado]

"But we can't be sure he's a rapist despite him pleading guilty to it" REALLY?

He didn't plead guilty to rape, so perhaps you could get your facts straight first.

 

[kirblar]

Step outside of this situation for a second. Don't think about Zach. Do you honestly believe that everyone who accepts a plea bargain is guilty?

Obviously not. But I don't have the ability to find the outliers, so I have to operate as though it's not one.

He didn't plead guilty to rape, so perhaps you could get your facts straight first.

Wow. I am very glad you are not doing your former job.

 

[elrechazado]

Obviously not. But I don't have the ability to find the outliers, so I have to operate as though it's not one.

Wow.

Wow? Do you do anything beyond faux pithy one liners? Laws are terms of art. Theft isn't burglary. Murder isn't manslaughter. There is a whole gamut of sexual crimes. Why should anyone pay attention to you holding forth on the topic if you can't be bothered to educate yourself about what you're talking about?

Clever edit bro. Why? Because I know the law, unlike you? You can have the last word, enjoy.

Anyway, not the time or place. Let's play card games, happy to share my thoughts in pm's if anyone wants.

 

[kirblar]

Wow? Do you do anything beyond faux pithy one liners? Laws are terms of art. Theft isn't burglary. Murder isn't manslaughter. There is a whole gamut of sexual crimes. Why should anyone pay attention to you holding forth on the topic if you can't be bothered to educate yourself about what you're talking about?

Clever edit bro. Why? Because I know the law, unlike you?

I don't try and pretend that someone violating someone in multiple orifices is anything other than what it is, hiding behind language and "the law."