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[Angry Grimace]

It is not supposed to be like every other product they put out.

First of all, what's your point? That doesn't somehow equate to "therefore, let's print every single Modern card that is played." Nor does it somehow equal a product which deviates from the business model (which is what a product with all good, expensive cards does.)

Second, what you have decided the product should be isn't necessarily what it actually is. The purpose of the product is to get people excited about Modern and give people a limited format to play.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

The purpose of the product is ostensibly to increase the number of cards in circulation that are Modern staples and are underprinted compared to the demand of players who want to get into the Modern format.

 

[LaserBuddha]

First of all, what's your point? That doesn't somehow equate to "therefore, let's print every single Modern card that is played." Nor does it somehow equal a product which deviates from the business model (which is what a product with all good, expensive cards does.)

Second, what you have decided the product should be isn't necessarily what it actually is. The purpose of the product is to get people excited about Modern and give people a limited format to play.

How can a product with such a high per-pack price and such a small print run really claim to be designed for limited play?

I understand it's a way to draft modern cards in a way that is cheaper and covers more sets than using old boosters, but it has everything going against it if Wizards wants that to be a thing.

 

[Joe Molotov]

That's a fair thing to say for me. It sure seems fickle though considering the changes that have happened in the past 2 years. Everyone calls for everything being banned (I've heard infect, twin, blood moon, Tarmogoyf,delver, I could go on.)that as someone who doesn't play modern I'm intimidated by the mere fact that the conversation takes place so often.

People in this thread were also calling for Jeskai Ascendancy and Mastery of the Unseen to be banned.

 

[Angry Grimace]

How can a product with such a high per-pack price and such a small print run really claim to be designed for limited play?

I understand it's a way to draft modern cards in a way that is cheaper and covers more sets than using old boosters, but it has everything going against it if Wizards wants that to be a thing.

MM1 was a really fun limited environment too. Its not like people were paying less for MM1 than MM2.

The purpose of the product is ostensibly to increase the number of cards in circulation that are Modern staples and are underprinted compared to the demand of players who want to get into the Modern format.

And its going to do that. Whether it does it for cheap, for expensive or prints every single card isn't actually here or there. They don't owe it to you to print any particular card, guys.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

And its going to do that. Whether it does it for cheap, for expensive or prints every single card isn't actually here or there. They don't owe it to you to print any particular card, guys.

I can't agree with this statement. The set is missing a significant number of cards that don't have a good printings-to-demand ratio (cards that would be obvious inclusions if you really studied the metagame beyond the top three decks), and it's chock full of cards that see zero play in Modern. It's not doing what it purports to do.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I can't agree with this statement. The set is missing a significant number of cards that don't have a good printings-to-demand ratio (cards that would be obvious inclusions if you really studied the metagame beyond the top three decks), and it's chock full of cards that see zero play in Modern. It's not doing what it purports to do.

It doesn't purport to do that, that's just you saying it purports to do that. You're not understanding that reprinting $50-$200 cards puts WOTC in a dicey position to begin with.

 

[OnPoint]

Again, I don't see the justification for that. The return on investment seems similar to every other product they put out. Its all speculative to say it isn't.

What other set debuted its boosters at $9.99 MSRP?

Oh, yeah. None of them.

Premium prices for a product "similar to every other product they put out". Which is why people expected better quality.

 

[LaserBuddha]

MM1 was a really fun limited environment too. Its not like people were paying less for MM1 than MM2.

The fact that MM1 price hikes were comparable to the MSRP of MM2, and that there will be enough demand for the limited stock, doesnt really persuade me of anything. Talking about what a company doesn't owe us is also pretty tone-deaf in a conversation among customers about what they want. I dont think we need a disclaimer that WOTC has free will when we talk about these things.

Price gouging a product that is meant to popularize a format (Modern limited) is very un-WOTC for how WOTC presents itself, which is as a party that wants to increase accessibility without pissing off any other party too much. And its hard to defend the fact that the value has changed inversely with the price in a significant way from the first MM.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The fact that MM1 price hikes were comparable to the MSRP of MM2, and that there will be enough demand for the limited stock, doesnt really persuade me of anything. Talking about what a company doesn't owe us is also pretty tone-deaf in a conversation among customers about what they want. I dont think we need a disclaimer that WOTC has free will when we talk about these things.

Price gouging a product that is meant to popularize a format (Modern limited) is very un-WOTC for how WOTC presents itself, which is as a party that wants to increase accessibility without pissing off any other party too much. And its hard to defend the fact that the value has changed inversely with the price in a significant way from the first MM.

That's because you're not looking at this from a bigger perspective. Printing off $200 cards is a thing that WOTC has been extraordinarily leery of since the beginning. Its significantly more complicated than you're acting like it is.

 

[red13th]

Sorry, don't see how printing a $200 card as a Mythic in a set prevents them from reprinting other valuable but far, FAR less expensive cards in the same set.

 

[LaserBuddha]

That's because you're not looking at this from a bigger perspective. Printing off $200 cards is a thing that WOTC has been extraordinarily leery of since the beginning. Its significantly more complicated than you're acting like it is.

They don't owe it to players to print certain cards or do anything else with this product line, but they owe it to collectors to not make waves in aftermarket prices?

Look at what MM1 did for Modern, even with the low print run and hoarding which kept prices from changing all that much. THAT is how you nurture a format. Protecting collectors doesn't help anyone but collectors.

 

[Matriox]

That's because you're not looking at this from a bigger perspective. Printing off $200 cards is a thing that WOTC has been extraordinarily leery of since the beginning. Its significantly more complicated than you're acting like it is.

Not printing the same $200 card at all makes consumers upset for the price of entry too. It's a lose lose but if it was more affordable for the secondary market, they would make more money. Seems like the latter makes more sense from their perspective Imo, I can't imagine anyone is happy that goyf is $200 except those that bought in cheap or hoarders.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

They don't owe it to players to print certain cards or do anything else with this product line, but they owe it to collectors to not make waves in aftermarket prices?

I was struggling with how to say this without sounding like a complete asshole. Thank you.

 

[kirblar]

The set is a gigantic gamble to open in ways MM1 was not. That's the issue- it's a slot machine where you can only break even or lose money at MSRP. MM1 was guaranteed value.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Sorry, don't see how printing a $200 card as a Mythic in a set prevents them from reprinting other valuable but far, FAR less expensive cards in the same set.

The point isn't specifically about Serum Visions, its that people are making a lot of assumptions about what the purpose of a product like this is. Based on how WOTC has acted since 1993 to this set, I can say with some confidence that lowering the price of entry into Tier 1 Modern decks isn't one of them.

They don't owe it to players to print certain cards or do anything else with this product line, but they owe it to collectors to not make waves in aftermarket prices?

Look at what MM1 did for Modern, even with the low print run and hoarding which kept prices from changing all that much. THAT is how you nurture a format. Protecting collectors doesn't help anyone but collectors.

Its conflating what WOTC is intending to do with what you believe they ought to be doing. I think its very clear they are not trying to lower the price of entry into modern. I think they've stated this very clearly by pricing the packs at $10 and putting a ton of staples at Mythic.

The set is a gigantic gamble to open in ways MM1 was not. That's the issue- it's a slot machine where you can only break even or lose money at MSRP. MM1 was guaranteed value.

That's the thing - almost nothing WOTC has ever put out has been guaranteed value. To the extent that MM1 was such, they also printed exceedingly small quantities of it such that it was only "guaranteed value" to the extent you actually purchased it at MSRP.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

MM1 was guaranteed value.

Yeah, even if you just paid for a single draft, at worst you were probably going to get an uncommon or two that was worth enough to not feel terrible about it.

 

[ultron87]

The point isn't specifically about Serum Visions, its that people are making a lot of assumptions about what the purpose of a product like this is. Based on how WOTC has acted since 1993 to this set, I can say with some confidence that lowering the price of entry into Tier 1 Modern decks isn't one of them.

The first Modern Masters was announced with a big article saying that increasing card availability in the Modern format was exactly the reason they were creating it. There was no reason to assume that the second edition would be anything different. Expecting that most of the currently somewhat pricey lower rarity cards would be included was not some insane assumption.

 

[Angry Grimace]

The first Modern Masters was announced with a big article saying that increasing card availability in the Modern format was exactly the reason they were creating it. There was no reason to assume that the second edition would be anything different. Expecting that most of the currently somewhat pricey lower rarity cards would be included was not some insane assumption.

Card availability and prices aren't the same thing.

You're giving MM1 far too much credit for the simple fact of what's in the box, despite the fact that it was massively underprinted and you couldn't *actually* buy it for MSRP, whereas you probably *can* buy MM2 for MSRP.

 

[kirblar]

Card availability and prices aren't the same thing.

You're giving MM1 far too much credit for the simple fact of what's in the box, despite the fact that it was massively underprinted and you couldn't *actually* buy it for MSRP, whereas you probably *can* buy MM2 for MSRP.

Part of why you can buy MM2 for MSRP is the soon-to-be bad EV. (You can definitely pre-order it in my area for MSRP.)

 

[Angry Grimace]

Part of why you can buy MM2 for MSRP is the soon-to-be bad EV. (You can definitely pre-order it in my area for MSRP.)

The problem is comparing the two at MSRP isn't actually fair since you couldn't really buy them for that. I'm also skeptical that you could even make a booster and limited product that would avoid having a lot of jank in general since most Magic cards are, in fact, jank. I'm just not certain that putting in Gixatian Probe, Path to Exile, Inquisition of Kozilek and Serum Visions would really change the EV to the level you guys are suggesting.

As an aside, I don't think WOTC likes retailers selling their product for more than MSRP.

 

[MjFrancis]

Two players, two sides. One invests in Magic cards and the other simply wishes to play with Magic cards. Which side are you on?

 

[ultron87]

Card availability and prices aren't the same thing.

Sure they are. That's just Wizard's speak for prices.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Sure they are. That's just Wizard's speak for prices.

They're not though. The price and print runs affect them independently.

Look, I'm gonna be just as pissed off as you guys if I open a Comet Storm. But I rarely expect to open anything of value when I open a pack of Magic cards since the business model dictates as such.

 

[red13th]

I think they should have reprinted more interesting/Modern playable/well-liked cards, regardless of price. I agree with what Saffron Olive said, some things like Obstinate Baloth, Coat of Arms or Master of Etherium (*ahem*Gemstone Mine too*ahem*) instead of insert-crap-rare would help to decrease the set's horrendous $10-for-bulk feeling, and they aren't even expensive cards.
I know I'm far less enthusiastic about MM17 after this one.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I think they should have reprinted more interesting/Modern playable/well-liked cards, regardless of price. I agree with what Saffron Olive said, some things like Obstinate Baloth, Coat of Arms or Master of Etherium (*ahem*Gemstone Mine too*ahem*) instead of insert-crap-rare would help to decrease the set's horrendous $10-for-bulk feeling, and they aren't even expensive cards.
I know I'm far less enthusiastic about MM17 after this one.

All I'm saying is that while I understand your plight, I'm a bit more sympathetic than you guys are that a set like this pulls the design team in a lot of different directions.

 

[kirblar]

All I'm saying is that while I understand your plight, I'm a bit more sympathetic than you guys are that a set like this pulls the design team in a lot of different directions.

They literally started the set off by putting all the cards they wanted to reprint in it, then built around that.

 

[WanderingWind]

HEAR YE, HEAR YE

Let it be known that Firemind, chief among his tribe of Dutch warriors, is most assuredly a righteous bro of the highest order.

(Thank you very, very much for the cards, homie. If you ever find yourself missing something for a deck, let me know).

 

[y2dvd]

MM2 ripping this community apart. Thanks WotC!

 

["God's Beard!"]

Something oddly satisfying about playing this card in a Grixis deck.

 

[Firemind]

(Thank you very, very much for the cards, homie. If you ever find yourself missing something for a deck, let me know).

I was actually going to ask for a round of beer from someone who knows his beers, but I guess you're not coming, FINE.

Spoiler

It took me a while to go through all the boxes and yet I still couldn't find the Pendelhaven. I must have traded it away. Anyway, enjoy your turn two kills.

 

[charlequin]

I'm also skeptical that you could even make a booster and limited product that would avoid having a lot of jank in general since most Magic cards are, in fact, jank.

Serum Visions alone as a common would add $20 to the day-one EV of a box. Adding four $5 uncommons would jack it up by $18. Do both of those, leaving the set otherwise identical, would completely solve people's EV problem with the set.

 

["God's Beard!"]

There's a huge difference between a dude who was selling oxys to make some side cash and a rapist, especially in a game that can't scrape together two whole women to participate in a major competitive event due to its garbage sexist culture.

If I had my druthers, they'd discretionarily lifetime ban him, frankly. Professional competition leagues have no responsibility to let people participate and a huge incentive to take strong action against serious character issues.

The moment they lifetime ban someone for something that has nothing to do with Magic or some crazy current event, who did nothing wrong at a Magic tournament, is the day I stop supporting Wizards.

 

[Angry Grimace]

There's a huge difference between a dude who was selling oxys to make some side cash and a rapist, especially in a game that can't scrape together two whole women to participate in a major competitive event due to its garbage sexist culture.

If I had my druthers, they'd discretionarily lifetime ban him, frankly. Professional competition leagues have no responsibility to let people participate and a huge incentive to take strong action against serious character issues.



Serum Visions alone as a common would add $20 to the day-one EV of a box. Adding four $5 uncommons would jack it up by $18. Do both of those, leaving the set otherwise identical, would completely solve people's EV problem with the set.

Serum Vision is never getting reprinted as a common, though. It also wouldn't add $20 EV to the box because the price would crash almost instantly if they printed this much of it with that card at common.

As for Chapin, I think I would be pretty uncomfortable hanging around Chapin given that the key witness in Chapin's trial died mysteriously right before testifying and apparently had expressed serious fear of reprisal from Chapin right before that. That said, I don't agree with your take on this, but I don't think its going to get anywhere arguing about it. I think we should drop that topic as too far afield and only calculated to get people actually pissed off about a political debate in a Magic thread.

 

[charlequin]

Serum Vision is never getting reprinted as a common, though. It also wouldn't add $20 EV to the box because the price would crash almost instantly if they printed this much of it with that card at common.

It's not like common in a high-priced, limited-run set is the same as common in a fall set. Yes, it wouldn't stay at $10, but it probably wouldn't drop to $1 either. The point isn't to have a set that keeps its EV permanently above its price (this isn't actually possible) but to start off close enough that your price loss opening packs for the period it's the latest set is relatively small.

As for Chapin, I think I would be pretty uncomfortable hanging around Chapin given that the key witness in Chapin's trial died mysteriously right before testifying and apparently had expressed serious fear of reprisal from Chapin right before that. That said, I don't agree with your take on this, but I don't think its going to get anywhere arguing about it. I think we should drop that topic as too far afield and only calculated to get people actually pissed off about a political debate in a Magic thread.

If Chapin murdering a guy were an actual established fact instead of a Reddit conspiracy theory we'd certainly be having a different conversation about that.

The reason I think this conversation is relevant is that far and away Magic's biggest problem is a miserable garbage player culture. People stop going to events because it's so ludicrously unpleasant to deal with the people you meet at events. Asking for a community standard like "we're not okay with convicted rapists" is like this incredibly low bar to ask people to jump over. If we can't even manage that....

 

[Angry Grimace]

I'm not saying its not a relevant topic, I'm saying its not calculated to do anything but make a lot of people get upset and this is one of the few MTG communities that isn't shitty to each other for no reason.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Let's be honest - the real problem with MM2015 is that Tom LaPille was the lead developer.

 

[red13th]

Let's be honest - the real problem with MM2015 is that Tom LaPille was the lead developer.

Ugh he was?

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Ugh he was?

http://magic.wizards.com/en/article...igning-modern-masters-2015-edition-2015-05-04

 

[Jhriad]

They don't owe it to you to print any particular card, guys.

Actually, they owe it to themselves and the playerbase to keep formats healthy. The prices of certain staples in any format being prohibitive to the health of the format is in direct conflict with this.

It doesn't purport to do that, that's just you saying it purports to do that. You're not understanding that reprinting $50-$200 cards puts WOTC in a dicey position to begin with.

Sure was dicey to reprint those fetch lands & Thoughtseize, amirite? The only dicey element is whether a card, if reprinted, would seriously damage a format and what rarity it needs to be printed at in order to keep the price from completely cratering. The latter isn't as large an issue with a limited run set like MM. Deflating artificially high prices isn't dicey in the least, particularly from WOTC's perspective where they want to sell as many boosters as possible. People can talk about how reprints might anger the finance folks or people that have invested a lot of money in their cards but the truth is that audience is a fraction of the whole and it's far more likely that it's better for the game in the long term to keep prices from being to exorbitant.

 

[WanderingWind]

The game of Magic would not be negatively affected in any way, shape or form if they decided to just say fuck it and reprint Goyf in a standard-legal set. It would probably rock on down to a 50 dollar card, which, may I remind y'all, is still a fuck load of money for a piece of cardboard.

WotC still believes they're holding this fragile little 1999 company and not one of the main pillars of Hasbro's international lineup. They can probably let the foot of the brake a bit, when commons are reaching 10 bucks and uncommons are nearing 20 dollars. At some point, they've got to realize they're actively telling kids and less fortunate folks that they're not welcome.

40-50 dollar drafts, super limited print runs of nearly everything that isn't a standard set, costly FtVs as "thanks for supporting us for 20 years" and the complete disinterest in talking about real world financial concerns is going to harm them way more in the long run than Emmara Tandris being at the wrong rarity, or whatever they actually panic about.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Actually, they owe it to themselves and the playerbase to keep formats healthy. The prices of certain staples in any format being prohibitive to the health of the format is in direct conflict with this.



Sure was dicey to reprint those fetch lands & Thoughtseize, amirite? The only dicey element is whether a card, if reprinted, would seriously damage a format and what rarity it needs to be printed at in order to keep the price from completely cratering. The latter isn't as large an issue with a limited run set like MM. Deflating artificially high prices isn't dicey in the least, particularly from WOTC's perspective where they want to sell as many boosters as possible. People can talk about how reprints might anger the finance folks or people that have invested a lot of money in their cards but the truth is that audience is a fraction of the whole and it's far more likely that it's better for the game in the long term to keep prices from being to exorbitant.

There's a huge difference between reprinting a single card (or cycle of cards, which by the way, weren't actually available in modern) in a fall set and a ton of cards in a compilation set. Its not even really comparable.

 

[kirblar]

The game of Magic would not be negatively affected in any way, shape or form if they decided to just say fuck it and reprint Goyf in a standard-legal set. It would probably rock on down to a 50 dollar card, which, may I remind y'all, is still a fuck load of money for a piece of cardboard.

WotC still believes they're holding this fragile little 1999 company and not one of the main pillars of Hasbro's international lineup. They can probably let the foot of the brake a bit, when commons are reaching 10 bucks and uncommons are nearing 20 dollars. At some point, they've got to realize they're actively telling kids and less fortunate folks that they're not welcome.

40-50 dollar drafts, super limited print runs of nearly everything that isn't a standard set, costly FtVs as "thanks for supporting us for 20 years" and the complete disinterest in talking about real world financial concerns is going to harm them way more in the long run than Emmara Tandris being at the wrong rarity, or whatever they actually panic about.

WotC is a profitable part of a very fragile company.

 

[The Technomancer]

The game of Magic would not be negatively affected in any way, shape or form if they decided to just say fuck it and reprint Goyf in a standard-legal set. It would probably rock on down to a 50 dollar card, which, may I remind y'all, is still a fuck load of money for a piece of cardboard.

WotC still believes they're holding this fragile little 1999 company and not one of the main pillars of Hasbro's international lineup. They can probably let the foot of the brake a bit, when commons are reaching 10 bucks and uncommons are nearing 20 dollars. At some point, they've got to realize they're actively telling kids and less fortunate folks that they're not welcome.

40-50 dollar drafts, super limited print runs of nearly everything that isn't a standard set, costly FtVs as "thanks for supporting us for 20 years" and the complete disinterest in talking about real world financial concerns is going to harm them way more in the long run than Emmara Tandris being at the wrong rarity, or whatever they actually panic about.

I don't disagree, but competitive decks being at least $200 means that already people like me aren't interested in really playing competitively outside of Limited. Goyf could be $20 and I still would wince before putting down cash for a playset. I think the competitive scene is always going to be incredibly narrow in terms of population numbers, and that they've made the right call in producing many products for the more casual crowd recently.

 

[SigmasonicX]

 

[red13th]

http://magic.wizards.com/en/article...igning-modern-masters-2015-edition-2015-05-04

Yuck.
He's gone now isn't he? Maybe MM17 will be better.

 

[Yeef]

Adorable.

 

[Angry Grimace]

If you play burn in Modern, you kind of deserve to get hit with Leyline of Sanctity every single sideboarded game. Just saying.

 

[Jaeyden]

I don't know what to think about MM2. There's just no trade fodder and to me that's the biggest issue. MM1 had (I'm sure I missed a few) Kitchen Finks, Path to Exile, Eternal Witness, Flickerwisp, Pestermite, Spellsnare, Spellstutter Sprite, Thirst for Knowledge, Raven's Crime, Street Wraith, Desperate Ritual, Empty the Warrens, Grapeshot, Lavaspike, Rift Bolt, Shrapnel Blast, Tribal Flames, Kodamas Reach, Krosan Grip, Search for Tomorrow, Lightning Helix, Manamorphose, Murderous Redcap, Trygon Predator, Tidehollow Sculler, Relic of Progenitus, and Paradise Mantle as commons or uncommons. All of these are either still played in Modern decks or have relevance in eternal formats. I can see why people are so pissed about the value being skewed because unless you hit the lottery you've got nothing to bargain with at the end of the day, and trading cards is half the fun amirite?. With MM2 you've got Remand and.........maybe Dismember, Mutagenic Growth and Bolt(lol).

 

[Joe Molotov]

If you play burn in Modern, you kind of deserve to get hit with Leyline of Sanctity every single sideboarded game. Just saying.

Destructive Revelry is a burn spell, tho.