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[Sequence Six]

When you think about it, Magic has some funky physical laws.

"All nonbasic lands are now mountains."

Let that sink in for a while.

It's because of red light.

From the moon.

 

[The Technomancer]

I guess it's hard for me to believe that the game is doing the best job it can at attracting new players.. The E-sports/hearthstone comparison is sort of confronting. To a certain extent I think the highly skewed playerbase of Magic (people that don't mind spending hours in dank sweaty caves) is a result of WOTC starving the game

I mean I get it's hard to make the business case to some skeptical suit guy that investing more in venues, player rewards etc is worth it, but in the long run.. it is, isn't it? You're restricting the playerbase to people that are willing to endure this shit under the current model. And there simply aren't that many kind of people, at the end of the day

Basically I think if they want to pull in the normies market (and another note on this - normies have way more money, and are way more willing to spend it, than the poverty-nerd market), they could be doing a much better job than they are doing. I think it's fair to say that the MTG culture that exists is a direct result of WOTC's policies...

The game is doing fantastically at recruiting new players. The game isn't doing very well at recruiting new players to game stores. The 40% female playerbase statistic from a while ago basically confirms that the massive majority of their players now are playing kitchen table Magic

 

[Yeef]

I guess it's hard for me to believe that the game is doing the best job it can at attracting new players.. The E-sports/hearthstone comparison is sort of confronting. To a certain extent I think the highly skewed playerbase of Magic (people that don't mind spending hours in dank sweaty caves) is a result of WOTC starving the game

I mean I get it's hard to make the business case to some skeptical suit guy that investing more in venues, player rewards etc is worth it, but in the long run.. it is, isn't it? You're restricting the playerbase to people that are willing to endure this shit under the current model. And there simply aren't that many kind of people, at the end of the day

Tournament players and their ilk are a very, very, very small part of the player base. The vast majority of players are people that play at home with their family and friends. Wizards's own numbers put it at 94% of magic being played at home:

only 6% of Magic is played in organized tournaments...94% of Magic is played at home.

http://wpn.wizards.com/en/article/inside-worlds-most-successful-fnm

 

[ultron87]

It's because of red light.

From the moon.

It just filters the mana without changing the physical property of the land. Because it's still like, a Flooded Strand or whatever (name doesn't change), but it is differently magical because of the moon. Yeah. That's it.

 

[WanderingWind]

They should treat LGSs like they do restaurants and do health and safety inspections. Does your store have ventilation? Are the seats more than 4 inches apart? Are the table more than 3 feet apart? How much fecal matter is spread across the unisex toilet seat? On a scale of 1-10, ten being rancid garlic butter on the bottom of a trashcan, how bad is the funk?

 

[The Technomancer]

Tournament players and their ilk are a very, very, very small part of the player base. The vast majority of players are people that play at home with their family and friends. Wizards's own numbers put it at 94% of magic being played at home:

http://wpn.wizards.com/en/article/inside-worlds-most-successful-fnm

Honestly even if they could help venues attract a larger playerbase consistently to events, there's still a segment of the playerbase that's rarely going to go to them (if ever) because of the ubiquitous presence of another segment of the playerbase

 

[kirblar]

Honestly even if they could help venues attract a larger playerbase consistently to events, there's still a segment of the playerbase that's rarely going to go to them (if ever) because of the ubiquitous presence of another segment of the playerbase

If you build it, they won't come.

 

[OnPoint]

Honestly even if they could help venues attract a larger playerbase consistently to events, there's still a segment of the playerbase that's rarely going to go to them (if ever) because of the ubiquitous presence of another segment of the playerbase

They could always host a tournament here

 

[JulianImp]

While I haven't tried too many LGS through my Magic-playing years, I had bad luck at first but eventually found one with the playerbase I wanted to hang around with. I should note that I probably wouldn't even have bothered with LGS if my high school classmates were more into playing the game, mostly because I never cared about winning huge tournaments and prizes or whatever.

This is a short compilation of the LGS I've been to:

• First store I played at back when I was new is where more experienced players ripped me off of several good cards back before I knew better, even though they did offer me some help at times (I had lots of fun with a cheap UG madness deck). The funny thing is I only heard about the main culprit many years later when I learned that he had become the national champion
• Then, I went to a LGS that was really competitive-oriented. It was okay and you could possibly play there to become a fairly proficient player, but the atmosphere was more focused on cutthroat competition than what I wanted
• After that, I tried out a store which was running pauper tournaments, which were fun and allowed me to try a different deck every week simply by pulling cards from my collection, but the metagame slowly stabilized into super-efficient decks that dominated everything else, and I lost interest
• Finally, I found a really small LGS that had opened up a couple of years ago, was really close from home and had lots of new players and several not-so-competitive veterans hanging out and having fun. We never managed to get too many large events or fancy stuff, but I still liked the relaxed atmosphere that didn't stifle wacky decks (even though the top places would often go to more competitive builds or the occasional netdeck)

 

[manipulate]

The game is doing fantastically at recruiting new players. The game isn't doing very well at recruiting new players to game stores. The 40% female playerbase statistic from a while ago basically confirms that the massive majority of their players now are playing kitchen table Magic

Out of curiousity, is that some kind of WOTC internal 'data'? I suppose it'd be wrong to straight up accuse them of lyin' haha

Anyway yeah... I think the fact that organised play is such a small part of total play is actually evidence of the limited appeal the current incarnation of organised play presents to most people.

 

[kirblar]

Out of curiousity, is that some kind of WOTC internal 'data'? I suppose it'd be wrong to straight up accuse them of lyin' haha

Anyway yeah... I think the fact that organised play is such a small part of total play is actually evidence of the limited appeal the current incarnation of organised play presents to most people.

Yeah, it's publicized market research- I think it was 38% in the released numbers.

 

[manipulate]

Yeah, it's publicized market research- I think it was 38% in the released numbers.

Does everyone like... believe that?

 

[kirblar]

Does everyone like... believe that?

They have access to data we don't. (XBOX/PC/PSX stats, etc) I've seen the kitchen table thing in my own household (with Pokemon) - its definitely a thing. The raw stats provided also don't account for total time played/$ spent, of course. But they definitely want to increase the visibility of those players - the greater focus on story/cosplay is a way to do that due to the gender's near-nonresistance in competitive play.

 

[Firemind]

It's because of red light.

From the moon.

But what if it's an underground river? Or a cavern of souls? Or a dryad arbor? Or a city made entirely of brass? Will the reflecting light turn the moon into mountains as well?

And what is a bad moon exactly? These are the questions that keep me up at night.

 

[bigkrev]

But what if it's an underground river? Or a cavern of souls? Or a dryad arbor? Or a city made entirely of brass? Will the reflecting light turn the moon into mountains as well?

And what is a bad moon exactly? These are the questions that keep me up at night.

Bad moon is the moon from Majora's Mask

 

["God's Beard!"]

Every moon is a bad moon. I've listened to so many astronomers that my reality becomes an existential nightmare every time I look at celestial objects. Takes a few minutes to regain my bearings.

I guess what I'm trying to say is, Ban Blood Moon in Modern. Not just because it makes me dread the inevitability of eternity and the unlimited unknown, though.

Just once can we discover some crazy aliens, please? They don't have to go to FNM.

 

[Matriox]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";166430857]I guess what I'm trying to say is, Ban Blood Moon in Modern. [/QUOTE]

Add it to the list of cards I named in the last thread of cards that people talk about banning lol. Modern be silly.

 

[OnPoint]

Every time something interesting and good comes up in Modern people wanna ban it.

I know we're not seriously discussing banning Blood Moon. But I wouldn't be surprised if people did.

 

[The Technomancer]

Does everyone like... believe that?

I do. I don't think that 40% of their revenue comes from women, but in terms of who plays the game? Yeah I buy it

 

[Matriox]

Every time something interesting and good comes up in Modern people wanna ban it.

I know we're not seriously discussing banning Blood Moon. But I wouldn't be surprised if people did.

Lol I was kidding too, but this is the 2nd time I've seen blood moon be named as a ban target and the first time wasn't kidding. Personally I havnt played modern enough to know better, but it seems like a fine card for greedy mana base strategies.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Every time something interesting and good comes up in Modern people wanna ban it.

I know we're not seriously discussing banning Blood Moon. But I wouldn't be surprised if people did.

Blood Moon isn't interesting, new or "coming up". If Wizards has collectively decided that Protection leads to bad gameplay because it hates out sections of the color pie(Lifebane Zombie being the most affecting card in all of Standard last season, for instance), then Blood Moon must be even worse for hating out entire strategies for free.

It's a splashable one-card combo that wins the game on turn three.

Lol I was kidding too, but this is the 2nd time I've seen blood moon be named as a ban target and the first time wasn't kidding. Personally I havnt played modern enough to know better, but it seems like a fine card for greedy mana base strategies.

My 5-color bogles deck with all prismatic lands was a greedy mana base. Tron, Bloom Titan and Scapeshift are all popular decks that function as an archetype because of their lands.

 

[kirblar]

It wins the game on T3 if you're playing a greedy deck, sure.

 

[OnPoint]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";166434201]Blood Moon isn't interesting, new or "coming up". If Wizards has collectively decided that Protection leads to bad gameplay because it hates out sections of the color pie(Lifebane Zombie being the most affecting card in all of Standard last season, for instance), then Blood Moon must be even worse for hating out entire strategies for free.

It's a splashable one-card combo that wins the game on turn three.

My 5-color bogles deck with all prismatic lands was a greedy mana base. Tron, Bloom Titan and Scapeshift are all popular decks that function as an archetype because of their lands.[/QUOTE]

The more and more I think about it, the more Blood Moon is the Force of Will of Modern. It forces (lolpun) people to account for its presence in their sideboard almost no matter what and may prevent them from going hog-wild on their landbase with non-basics.

OK, I'm not being totally serious, but it does raise an interesting thought about what Modern would be like without it.

 

[Matriox]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";166434201]
My 5-color bogles deck with all prismatic lands was a greedy mana base. Tron, Bloom Titan and Scapeshift are all popular decks that function as an archetype because of their lands.[/QUOTE]

But those 3 strategies are primarily green based right? I find it hard to believe you don't have some sort of answer to enchantments somewhere in there.

 

[WanderingWind]

The more and more I think about it, the more Blood Moon is the Force of Will of Modern. It forces (lolpun) people to account for its presence in their sideboard almost no matter what and may prevent them from going hog-wild on their landbase with non-basics.

OK, I'm not being totally serious, but it does raise an interesting thought about what Modern would be like without it.

Nothing would be changed. Blood Moon is a card that most decks can't directly deal with, so they just have to win regardless. Or they just randomly get utterly hosed. Either way, decks just tend to ignore it, or scoop on the spot. There isn't too much consideration in dealing with it that seems to go into 75 of most decks. For now.


Other than that, you would see slightly less basics being played. People maindeck a couple of basics to fetch out in case of Blood Moon. But otherwise, you'd still have the same decks in play.

Without it, we MAY see a slight uptick in the playability of the green stompy deck and elves, but both of those decks are sort of okay with their mana being gone by T3. Stompy should have enough power on board to do stuff to you and elves only really need lands on turn 1-2.

 

[Jhriad]

The game is doing fantastically at recruiting new players. The game isn't doing very well at recruiting new players to game stores. The 40% female playerbase statistic from a while ago basically confirms that the massive majority of their players now are playing kitchen table Magic

Out of curiousity, is that some kind of WOTC internal 'data'? I suppose it'd be wrong to straight up accuse them of lyin' haha

Anyway yeah... I think the fact that organised play is such a small part of total play is actually evidence of the limited appeal the current incarnation of organised play presents to most people.

Honestly I think the biggest appeal of kitchen table magic and conversely the biggest hindrance to engaging with even the most casual of competitive events (FNM) is the cost. There are a good number of other factors but from my admittedly anecdotal experience with a large number of former Magic players/current casual players the cost is always at the top of the list. The payouts for organized play would probably be around the bottom of the list, were one to be made. People are looking for a pleasant, reasonably priced way to entertain themselves and spend time with friends. A few casual games with cheap, old cards or their lone commander deck (probably full of a lot of jank) is far more inviting than dumping $200 on a deck that will relatively quickly be outdated in the metagame and lose it's value in the mid to long term. These are people with very well paying jobs, a decent amount of free time, and hundreds (or thousands) of dollars of board games, Warhammer minis, video games, etc. Could this be fixed? Eh, probably not completely as I think the nature of Standard, primarily rotation and how it affects their decks/cards, is enough to keep folks out of that part of the game. Modern, if the barrier to entry weren't so high, would be ideal for a lot of these folks but few are willing to consider the initial investment required.

 

[WanderingWind]

I would snap buy Forces at 75 bucks. Not even hesitate.

 

[acheron_xl]

I would snap buy Forces at 75 bucks. Not even hesitate.

I guess I should sell all my money cards here, rather than sell them to ABU like I've been doing.

I want an Apple Watch - any gaffers need a playset of Ports?

 

["God's Beard!"]

I would snap buy Forces at 75 bucks. Not even hesitate.

Fine, just bought out Forces at 75 and MM2 Cliques at 40.

 

[bigkrev]

The fact that Avacyn Restored sold really well is all the proof I need to believe the statistic that less than 10% of MTG players play in stores

 

[The Technomancer]

Honestly I think the biggest appeal of kitchen table magic and conversely the biggest hindrance to engaging with even the most casual of competitive events (FNM) is the cost. There are a good number of other factors but from my admittedly anecdotal experience with a large number of former Magic players/current casual players the cost is always at the top of the list. The payouts for organized play would probably be around the bottom of the list, were one to be made. People are looking for a pleasant, reasonably priced way to entertain themselves and spend time with friends. A few casual games with cheap, old cards or their lone commander deck (probably full of a lot of jank) is far more inviting than dumping $200 on a deck that will relatively quickly be outdated in the metagame and lose it's value in the mid to long term. These are people with very well paying jobs, a decent amount of free time, and hundreds (or thousands) of dollars of board games, Warhammer minis, video games, etc. Could this be fixed? Eh, probably not completely as I think the nature of Standard, primarily rotation and how it affects their decks/cards, is enough to keep folks out of that part of the game. Modern, if the barrier to entry weren't so high, would be ideal for a lot of these folks but few are willing to consider the initial investment required.

I think cost is a huge factor. But I also think that another huge factor is that the vast majority of game stores are not particularly pleasant places to hang out in. And not necessarily that they're bad stores or anything, just like...how much time do you want to spend hanging around your local Target? Do you hang out and socialize at your barber? Game stores exist as social spaces for people who don't really have other social spaces to play in, but you're hanging around because you like the people and the game more then you dislike the fact that you're spending four hours sitting at a crappy white plastic table under fluorescent lights. But for people who do have access to a good kitchen table group (and aren't necessarily interested in competition, which is a huge chunk of the market) its just a lot more comfortable to hang out and play in someone's living room than it is to go and play at what is, really, a retail store

At least, thats a large part of why my friends and I play at home I'm pretty sure

 

[WanderingWind]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";166438797]Fine, just bought out Forces at 75 and MM2 Cliques at 40.[/QUOTE]

Great fucking buys. I want in on that action yo.

 

[Bandini]

I think cost is a huge factor. But I also think that another huge factor is that the vast majority of game stores are not particularly pleasant places to hang out in. And not necessarily that they're bad stores or anything, just like...how much time do you want to spend hanging around your local Target? Do you hang out and socialize at your barber? Game stores exist as social spaces for people who don't really have other social spaces to play in, but you're hanging around because you like the people and the game more then you dislike the fact that you're spending four hours sitting at a crappy white plastic table under fluorescent lights. But for people who do have access to a good kitchen table group (and aren't necessarily interested in competition, which is a huge chunk of the market) its just a lot more comfortable to hang out and play in someone's living room than it is to go and play at what is, really, a retail store

At least, thats a large part of why my friends and I play at home I'm pretty sure

Absolutely. Plus you can drink and eat good food at home. Put on tunes.

Most of the people I have met playing competitively are pretty chill, but there's also a significant segment of players with horrible attitudes. It's a big turn-off to a lot of casual players and just makes them feel its not worth the effort.

 

[Jhriad]

I think cost is a huge factor. But I also think that another huge factor is that the vast majority of game stores are not particularly pleasant places to hang out in.

Agreed.

Do you hang out and socialize at your barber?

Heck yeah, I do. It's also one of those few barber shops where there's always at least 2-3 older gentlemen sitting reading the paper. As an added bonus they do a pretty excellent straight razor shave.

 

[Royal_Flush]

The funny thing is that bloodmoon is utterly useless in casual, because most of the time 80% of the manabase will be basics :3

 

[Angry Grimace]

When you think about it, Magic has some funky physical laws.

"All nonbasic lands are now mountains."

Let that sink in for a while.

Obviously we need a Conversion reprint. I mean, Choke and Blood Moon are legal for reasons, so it stands that Conversion is only fair.

 

[GamerKingFaiz]

[QUOTE="God's Beard!";166438797]Fine, just bought out Forces at 75 and MM2 Cliques at 40.[/QUOTE]

Where the heck did you find Forces for $75? Were they NM?

 

["God's Beard!"]

Great fucking buys. I want in on that action yo.

Just troll ebay "or best offer" listings with lowballs until someone accepts

 

[kirblar]

I think cost is a huge factor. But I also think that another huge factor is that the vast majority of game stores are not particularly pleasant places to hang out in. And not necessarily that they're bad stores or anything, just like...how much time do you want to spend hanging around your local Target? Do you hang out and socialize at your barber? Game stores exist as social spaces for people who don't really have other social spaces to play in, but you're hanging around because you like the people and the game more then you dislike the fact that you're spending four hours sitting at a crappy white plastic table under fluorescent lights. But for people who do have access to a good kitchen table group (and aren't necessarily interested in competition, which is a huge chunk of the market) its just a lot more comfortable to hang out and play in someone's living room than it is to go and play at what is, really, a retail store

At least, thats a large part of why my friends and I play at home I'm pretty sure

Here's what I'm pretty sure is going on, starting here w/ this study- http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjournals.plos.org%2Fplosone%2Farticle%3Fid%3D10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0100318&ei=motwVabjBYecNoCKgegI&usg=AFQjCNH8E-6kynIr5QXf4rWLrtryCYD5Hg&sig2=iCh2gLhHoraSP07Fv5kNog&bvm=bv.94911696,d.eXY

They found that the male players have a positive emotional reaction to competitive games. (aka a high.) The female players did not - cooperative/competitive both produced the same reaction. Assuming this study's replicable, we have the answer as to why competitive games get so male-heavy - it's not that they're excluding women, it's that the men are being drawn to the activity like flies to a bugzapper. This in turn leads in turn to the environments warping around their participants and what they are attracted to in the game.

And if we follow that the game is producing a high for this subset of the playerbase, we can see that they're willing to put up with things other people aren't in order to keep getting it. Dilapidated stores, barely-functional online client? As long as they get their game on, they're willing to put up with just about anything.

 

[The Technomancer]

Here's what I'm pretty sure is going on, starting here w/ this study- http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&uact=8&ved=0CCQQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fjournals.plos.org%2Fplosone%2Farticle%3Fid%3D10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0100318&ei=motwVabjBYecNoCKgegI&usg=AFQjCNH8E-6kynIr5QXf4rWLrtryCYD5Hg&sig2=iCh2gLhHoraSP07Fv5kNog&bvm=bv.94911696,d.eXY

They found that the male players have a positive emotional reaction to competitive games. (aka a high.) The female players did not - cooperative/competitive both produced the same reaction. Assuming this study's replicable, we have the answer as to why competitive games get so male-heavy - it's not that they're excluding women, it's that the men are being drawn to the activity like flies to a bugzapper. This in turn leads in turn to the environments warping around their participants and what they are attracted to in the game.

And if we follow that the game is producing a high for this subset of the playerbase, we can see that they're willing to put up with things other people aren't in order to keep getting it. Dilapidated stores, barely-functional online client? As long as they get their game on, they're willing to put up with just about anything.

That's basically what I was getting at. Its not really that most game stores are compelling social hangouts in their own right, its that the people who play competitively there care more about the game than any discomfort

 

[The Technomancer]

Heck yeah, I do. It's also one of those few barber shops where there's always at least 2-3 older gentlemen sitting reading the paper. As an added bonus they do a pretty excellent straight razor shave.

Yeah as I said that I realized there are still barbers like that around

 

[Jhriad]

Yeah as I said that I realized there are still barbers like that around

Unfortunately not enough of them. They're hard to find but every time I move I make sure to make an effort to find one.

 

[ultron87]

My most surprising accomplishment of the GP was only getting one warning for ignoring my Lodestone Golem while casting something through nine whole rounds. I'm the worst at remembering effects like that. If you want me to warning out of a tournament just play Thalia against me.

I even managed to never forget a Narcolepsy trigger. Came close once but my opponent didn't actually say "Upkeep?" before they drew so the judge let me have it.

 

[darkside31337]

My most surprising accomplishment of the GP was only getting one warning for ignoring my Lodestone Golem while casting something through nine whole rounds. I'm the worst at remembering effects like that. If you want me to warning out of a tournament just play Thalia against me.

I even managed to never forget a Narcolepsy trigger. Came close once but my opponent didn't actually say "Upkeep?" before they drew so the judge let me have it.

Honestly I'm surprised they reprinted Narcolepsy just for that reason.

 

[ultron87]

Honestly I'm surprised they reprinted Narcolepsy just for that reason.

Yeah, it's kind of dumb. Especially in the same set as Pillory of the Sleepless since they work exactly opposite.

You need to remember the trigger for your Narcolepsy, and if you let your opponent take their turn without saying anything the creature stays untapped. But the opponent needs to remember the life loss for their Pilloried creature because the creature actually gets the ability. And if they miss that they'll get a warning for missing a detrimental trigger. Kind of a nightmare.

Edit: I guess if you have to print a card that has a detrimental opponent's upkeep trigger the Narcolepsy way is probably better, but it's probably best just to avoid that entirely.

 

[y2dvd]

Pretty good article on MM15 finance.

https://pucatrade.com/blog/2015/mm15finance

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Was there a reason Narcolepsy doesn't just keep it tapped? I know there are edge cases where it matters (creatures with relevant {T} abilities), but were there any of those outside of Vent Sentinel in the original environment it was printed?

Pretty good article on MM15 finance.

https://pucatrade.com/blog/2015/mm15finance

I think this is actually quite an important perspective:

Now, I played Magic: The Gathering back then when Chronicles was introduced in 1995, and I was quite happy to be able to get my hands on Nicol Bolas, Chromium, Concordant Crossroads, Craw Giant, Fallen Angel, Nebuchadnezzar, Recall, The Wretched, and , all of which were expensive cards from Legends. Many were over $10 a copy, and that was a lot back then. It was great to be able to play with the cards. I was happy with Chronicles, and I think it gets an undeservedly bad reputation. Instead of fleeing the game, here I am, many years later, still playing. The early player base was not all entitled twenty-something or older players – some were young kids like myself who liked the gameplay and wanted cool cards.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Blood Moon isn't getting banned for a ton of reasons, one of which is "haha fuck you for having 500 bucks in lands." You'd also have to ban Boil, Boiling Seas, Choke, etc.

Bad moon is the moon from Majora's Mask

If you ever cast this spell without CCR lyrics you're a horrible person

Was there a reason Narcolepsy doesn't just keep it tapped? I know there are edge cases where it matters (creatures with relevant {T} abilities), but were there any of those outside of Vent Sentinel in the original environment it was printed?



I think this is actually quite an important perspective:

A) Letting you use tap abilities, B) flavor (narcolepsy is where you just randomly fall asleep)

 

["God's Beard!"]

Pretty good article on MM15 finance.

https://pucatrade.com/blog/2015/mm15finance

C'mon Bitterblossom! Let's sink that ship!

 

[GamerKingFaiz]

My most surprising accomplishment of the GP was only getting one warning for ignoring my Lodestone Golem while casting something through nine whole rounds. I'm the worst at remembering effects like that. If you want me to warning out of a tournament just play Thalia against me.

I even managed to never forget a Narcolepsy trigger. Came close once but my opponent didn't actually say "Upkeep?" before they drew so the judge let me have it.

Narcolepsy is one of those cards I would so easily forget, mainly because my opponents normally will be nice enough to keep their creatures tapped.