I just looked up Invisible Stalker and it's hilarious. Did it really cause issues in Standard when it was legal?
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Magic: the Gathering |OT4| Izzet Me; Izzet You? A Love Story
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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I just looked up Invisible Stalker and it's hilarious. Did it really cause issues in Standard when it was legal?
acheron_xl
Member
I like shroud. It's cool to put it on something that would probably be busted if you could target it. I had this guy in an early version of my set as the only card in it with shroud, and playtesters raved (the ones who cast it, anyway - usually for 5 mana and 10 life.)
Keru_Shiri
Member
Similar to our conversation regarding Dissolve, its one thing to theorize something might be a problem and another to see how it plays out in the real world. Very few actual cards with Hexproof are "problematic" in any color (I'd probably say Invisible Stalker and Sigarda, Host of Herons though you could add Gladecover scout and Slippery Bogle and have a strong argument). All the other either straight up suck or are actively strong but very beatable (Caryatid,Thrun, Fleecemane,Geist, Silumgar, Ojutai fall in this category). There's no reason to exclude Hexprooof from Blue aside from a "Blue decks touched me inappropriately once" mentality which I don't really give much credibility. Having shared mechanics between colors is also a good thing too.
As for Greens role in constructed Magic, the color seems to be doing well to me with lots of ramp (Caryatid, Mystic, Voyagin Saytr, etc.), various forums of card advantage (Courser of Kruphix, Gensis Hydra, etc), strong planeswalkers (Nissa, Xenagos, Domri, most Garruks, etc.) and individual threats that dominate a board if they aren't killed IMMEDIATELY (Whisperwood Elemental, Polukranos, etc.). Hexproof is a good tool in its repertoire but I don't see Green's current position in modern Magic as some sort of victim color - its doing very well for itself.
It would have to be multicolor but I see nothing wrong with this request. I'd probably add "sac with the highest power" clause like Crackling Doom had.
It was mostly limited where you could slap a Butcher's Clever on it that it was a problem. It showed up a little bit in Standard but it had very little impact.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
A couple of things. You and I were saying the same things about Dissolve and are continuing to say the same things about Hexproof here. You probably know that, but you worded it in an odd way, just making sure that you're not confusing me with people arguing against either. I think they're both fine.
Now, we start to diverge when we talk about blue. It has nothing at all to do with hurt feelings about a color or any such nonsense. It is all about how certain keywords become inherently stronger when moved into one color pie. Hexproof in green really hasn't shown itself to be a problem. Sigarda is a problem in EDH, I hear, but I don't really count that as a "real" format when we're talking about card balance and creation.
There is a reason why Hexproof turned an otherwise ho-hum 1/1 unblockable into one of the most hated cards in Standard at the time. There is a reason why Ojutai is a card that instantly became a deck. Hexproof in blue is much stronger than hexproof in any other possible color.
Blue keywords, I'd argue, need more close monitoring than just about any other color. And frankly, with flying, unblockable, autocountering and the like in its toolbox, Hexproof is an unnecessary addition to blue's repertoire. Conversely, it (or shroud) is an absolutely necessary addition to green's toolbox. That's not saying green is a "victim" color, but it's a necessary addition to a color that relies on creatures more than anything else. Hexproof/shroud shore up the gap between the cost of effective creature spells and effective creature removal.
acheron_xl
Member
Blue doesn't need hexproof, and hexproof certainly doesn't need blue, but it's flavorful enough that I think it (or other versions of it) will continue to be thrown onto blue cards. Hopefully prowess can eat a lot of it's space.
Yeah I always wanted it to be good but it pretty much wasn't. Turns out a 3/2 flier for U was pretty good.
Belongs in green as a "natural" defense to blue. IMO.
acheron_xl
Member
It's a natural mirror in green to blue and black's shenanigans, but it feels 'ghostly and ephemeral' enough to be on dodgy blue shit. They should really just leave well enough alone, though. You can make a flavor excuse for blue doing almost anything. A line should be drawn somewhere.
I think blue needs more conditional hexproof, not straight up hexproof. Stuff like Ojutai is a perfect way to do it right.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
I feel like blue's blink ability fits that role just fine. It's conditional, it's flavorful and it stops the color bleed. As acheron said, if you strain hard enough, blue (being the color of the mind) can justify just about anything.
I'm not sure what you mean? Blink ability?
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Blue has the self-exiling ability (commonly called "blinking") Well, temporary exiling in general is called "blinking" but you get the idea.
acheron_xl
Member
As long as they don't print any more Deadeye Navigators I'm fine with more blink.
Blue has the self-exiling ability (commonly called "blinking") Well, temporary exiling in general is called "blinking" but you get the idea.
Oh. Yeah, I like that MUCH better than Hexproof on blue.
Oh I know we both agreed then and I think we mostly agree here. My apologies if my word choice threw you off.
I think "butthurt" describes a lot of people I've encountered online in this discussion but I agree it was harsh to imply that applied to you as well on further reflection. My bad.
Now, I'm aware of how context can change how powerful certain mechanics are in certain colors. There is a reason Red (Burn) and White (many universal answers) don't get much card draw for example. I just don't think the competitive results (which I think matters most for power level concerns) bear out that Hexproof is problematic in Blue. First off, we have to be honest with ourselves, when its comes to Hexproof, the biggest issue is the CMC of the cards it gets put on more than the color. Gladecover Scout and Slippery Bogle are some of the easiest Hexproof cards to interact with but they are likely amongst the strongest considering power level. At two mana, only one more, Invisible Stalker has very little competitive success. Putting absolute evasion and Hexproof on a card that cheap was a mistake but I think its CMC is the biggest offender of that package. Then we move up to like Aven Fleetwing but that card is trash despite having evasion and hexproof.
Of the Blue cards with hexproof, how many have seen REAL competitive play in T2, Modern, etc.? Ojutai, Simulgar 1, Prognostic Sphinx and Geist of Saint Traft I think are the only ones really (Slippery Bogle is "Blue" but mostly played in decks with no Blue cards or sources. Out of all of them, Geist is the strongest because it is the cheapest. Geist + Mana Leak is admittedly a strong combo. However the card is still very easy to interact with using creatures. The card is pushed and very powerful but I don't think its a mistake (or nor more a mistake than any Modern playable creature in any color). I don't see these examples of "Blue can't have hexproof" I just see them as strong cards that every color is allowed to have access to at some point.
As for Blue other keywords, the purpose of Hexproof is to make creatures that are hard to interact with. That's specifically what WOTC wants. Evasion mechanics don't do that and counterspells are limited in number and by opportunity cost. Mentioning them seems irrelevant because they don't serve the same purpose and, as has been proven, evasion + hexproof is fine as long as the card isn't too cheap or the hexproof conditional.
Looking over the past few years, I think WOTC has done a good job managing hexproof in all the relevant colors. The Blue hexproof creatures and the Green hexproof creatures are both good but for different reasons and play in different spaces. They've come to better understand on what kind of bodies and at what kind of mana costs they can make hexproof cards that are appropriately powerful and hard to deal with (i.e. the point) but not super obnoxious. At this point I don't think there is much of an issue and if WOTC decides to fall back, which would only be from pressure due to a lot of whining, I will be disappointed. I actively don't think Shroud plays well today given how creatures are made. I have no interest in shroud creatures for my Cubes, EDH decks, etc. The ability to positively interact with my permanents is too important. As long as WOTC develops the mechanic well, I don't think there is a problem and I think they have done a fine job developing the mechanic. I think the most recent "slip up" was Gladecover Scout but since then its been smooth sailing.
Blue has the self-exiling ability (commonly called "blinking") Well, temporary exiling in general is called "blinking" but you get the idea.
Aetherling plays very differently than Ojutai, Silumgar, Prognostic Sphinx, etc. It's abilites are NOT a "substitute" for hexproof.
acheron_xl
Member
I would guess that it's slightly complex for common, too. Fucking NWO.
This may well be true, but so far what we have to go on is not promising. A big part of the issue is that, even if Doug's not full of crap, the hero of the story is still a (very) white person. They're using Indian people and things as background.
This is very familiar and recognizable if you're a brown person. It's routine for stories full of non-white people to be headed up by an audience-friendly white person. Frank Herbert did it in Dune, The Wire did it on TV, that rather terrible TV show Outsourced was basically about how great that trope is.
It's not fun for us to always be the extras in a white person's story.
I agree in full. I made a post a few pages back about how more races need representation in Magic and that Origins was a prime example of how white-washed it is that went ignored. I'm sad that this not only confirms it, but actually reveals it's worse.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
1) What?
2) Granted this is a problem in other mediums, but I feel like you're picking the two absolute worst possible cases to support your case. The Wire is the definition of an ensemble cast. There is no lead guy, there is no "white dude" using black people as a backdrop. Stringer Bell has the most screen time until, well, you know.
And Magic is pretty damn diversified. The planeswalkers are decidedly melanin-challenged at the moment, but they've had a disabled Planeswalker, two mideastern PW, 3 women, two black PW, a Mediterranean PW, a nonbinary gendered PW, a few Asian PW (both of whom are the current "heroes" of the standard set) and at least 2 furries.
As the biggest detractor to Hexproof here, I think the mechanic is somewhat salvagable. They just need to learn how to cost it properly. It's the most powerful creature ability they currently have, and they cost it higher than abilities like Flying, but not significantly so. Hexproof should be a 2.5-3 mana cost on a creature- you can get a 1/1 Hexproof for 3 mana, a 2/2 with evasion for 5 mana, ect. At higher rarities, you can push it slightly- Thrun being about as far as I would be willing to go, but you NEVER put the ability on a card that costs less than 3 mana, unless it has a significant drawback, like zero power (the only way that you could do a 2CMC hexproof creature) or Defender.
Which makes them creating steampunk India with the main character being caucasian even more awkward.
SigmasonicX
Member
Kaladesh is clearly being set up as a plane that an upcoming block will focus on, what with it being two highly requested things (steampunk and India), so I would imagine we'll get a dark-skinned planeswalker from there when that block comes.
Personally, as an Indian-American, the part I'm disappointed in is that Kaladesh doesn't seem like it would have bear people and monkey people, or arrow vs. arrow battles, but maybe they're hiding off screen with the dark skinned people.
The way I see it, the issue with an Indian plane is that Hinduism is still a very widely practiced religion, so focusing on myths is playing in dangerous territory, especially since people could cry appropriation. Combining it with steampunk is a really neat move. And of course, there is always the chance that this isn't the Indian plane and they could do one later.
Personally, as an Indian-American, the part I'm disappointed in is that Kaladesh doesn't seem like it would have bear people and monkey people, or arrow vs. arrow battles, but maybe they're hiding off screen with the dark skinned people.
The way I see it, the issue with an Indian plane is that Hinduism is still a very widely practiced religion, so focusing on myths is playing in dangerous territory, especially since people could cry appropriation. Combining it with steampunk is a really neat move. And of course, there is always the chance that this isn't the Indian plane and they could do one later.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
Why? Do we think it will feature no other PW besides Chandra? Of course not. So, we're mad in advance at a thing that hasn't happened, won't happen and doesn't even follow what WotCs history has shown.
Chandra is one PW that will be among many. This may shock some people, but there are, in fact, white people who live in India in the real world. It's just odd that this is a thing right now when we're in the middle of a Mongolian/Chinese influenced block featuring zero white PWs.
Infinite Stars
Member
Sorin? He's pretty pale looking on his cards.
Because she doesn't look like how I would expect the planeswalker from the India plane to look like, it's weird especially considering how mindful of inclusion they have been lately. I don't think they should have put Chandra as native to the Indian plane, I read somewhere that Chandra is an Indian name, maybe that's why? Still seems like an odd choice IMO.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
He's an ash gray vampire. Maybe I'm wrong here, but I'm putting him with Nahiri, Ugin, Karn, Kiora and Vraska. Mythical creature. I dunno. I haven't met anybody that wasn't an albino that looked like Sorin.
Well, uh. I don't know how anybody is really expected to combat your own internal views of how other cultures are "supposed" to be. Again, white people live in India, black people live in Switzerland and there are, in fact, skinny people that live in America.
Maybe they'll be making parallels between this plane and pre-independence and partition India. You know, back when it was under the thumb of the British. There's a lot of interesting things they could do if they were inclined and getting upset about a white character in a setting with themes from a non-white culture is a little silly especially given their obvious push to be as inclusive as possible with characters like Alesha.
phazedplasma
Member
why isnt invisible stalker played in bogles
Too expensive.
edit: MTGO's economy issues are due to the redemption fee. Point blank. If someone says otherwise, ignore them. (IIRC, Theros was partially under the old redemption system until BNG released.)
"God's Beard!"
Member
too blue
I played him in my 5-color bogles deck and won a GPT with it, but then treasure cruise got banned and the deck sucked.
wat
to whoever it was that said things about the Wire: OK, I guess I was wrong about that one, I didn't watch the whole entire series so I believe there could be stuff I wasn't aware of that I didn't see. I retract my use of that show as example.
But that's not the story we're looking at now; we're looking at a white-centered story.
To the folks that say white people live in India, so maybe Chandra counts: Yes, they do, because of European aggression. I assure you that the British invasion sharply increased the size of that demographic.
I'm also getting a vibe from WanderingWind that "MTG is doing a good job including other people, isn't that enough?" Well sure, they're doing a good job for other people, but as it stands they are not doing a good job for us. It's clear that the creative team is working hard to be inclusive and I applaud them for that. They are taking risks including neurodivergent characters and gender minorities in their cast, and there's been a backlash and they've handled it admirably. This is great.
But especially in this context, it sucks that the people who look like me, if indeed there are any such people, are relegated to being extras and background dressing in Chandra's story. It feels like they were being very conscious of other inclusion issues and made a careless misstep when it came to Indian people. It feels especially tone-deaf when you are conscious of the subcontinent's history with European aggression, which continues to harm that region's people to this day.
EDIT: as a note, we are also quite aware of exactly which walkers will be featured alongside Chandra in Origins. That's the whole selling point of the set. We can't make arguments about what characters "might" be featured alongside her, because we know who they are already.
I think it's pretty reasonable to expect an Indian-looking walker from Kaladesh in the event that we see a Kaladesh block or supplemental set. (Also I'm hella interested in your ideas about things you want to see in this hypothetical future set.)
But that's not the story we're looking at now; we're looking at a white-centered story.
To the folks that say white people live in India, so maybe Chandra counts: Yes, they do, because of European aggression. I assure you that the British invasion sharply increased the size of that demographic.
I'm also getting a vibe from WanderingWind that "MTG is doing a good job including other people, isn't that enough?" Well sure, they're doing a good job for other people, but as it stands they are not doing a good job for us. It's clear that the creative team is working hard to be inclusive and I applaud them for that. They are taking risks including neurodivergent characters and gender minorities in their cast, and there's been a backlash and they've handled it admirably. This is great.
But especially in this context, it sucks that the people who look like me, if indeed there are any such people, are relegated to being extras and background dressing in Chandra's story. It feels like they were being very conscious of other inclusion issues and made a careless misstep when it came to Indian people. It feels especially tone-deaf when you are conscious of the subcontinent's history with European aggression, which continues to harm that region's people to this day.
EDIT: as a note, we are also quite aware of exactly which walkers will be featured alongside Chandra in Origins. That's the whole selling point of the set. We can't make arguments about what characters "might" be featured alongside her, because we know who they are already.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
No, the vibe you should be getting is that I am using facts and reality instead of some nebulous sense of frustration that doesn't apply to this particular product at this current juncture in time. Imply that I'm being racist again and you can kindly go fuck yourself.
You know of exactly one potential character in a set and you have determined that not only will there be no others with different shades of skin, but that the upcoming set will only feature Chandra as a main character. This completely and utterly ignores all of Magic's history and current Magic present and substitutes a parallel universe in which they have already made a "misstep" despite none of us knowing anything about the set, its world or its politics.
You are literally manufacturing outrage and it's frankly ridiculous. Perhaps you will be proven right. But as it stands right now, your jumping to conclusions on everything from what you think TV shows are about, to what you think future sets will be about, to what you think other posters intents are, is not exactly helping anything you say carry any sort of real weight.
I think the idea is that we'll probably get a Kaladesh block in the (relatively) near future and since each block has 5 walkers, there will be 4 slots with which to put more culturally-appropriate walkers.
We know the five PWs: Jace, Gideon, Chandra, Liliana and Nissa
We know there will be one legendary cycle of Mentors: Hixus for Gideon and 4 others
Given precedent and set size, while there could be more legendary creatures, it is very unlikely that there is. As such, the Red member of the cycle is the only one that could fit barbecube's criteria (i.e. major characters of color from that plane and not just like a random soldier creature or something). Considering he/she seems concerned, which is fair, rather than outraged, which would be unfair given what we still don't know, I don't think he/she is out of line. While its true that any local in Magic or Earth or whatever doesn't have to be mono-racial/ethnic, for the sake of representation, it IS fucking weird if the "hero(es)" of your story isn't a member of the indigenous race (or at least multi-racial). It doesn't mean WOTC are bad people at all but its still is a bit off-putting. The "Mighty Whitey" and other similar tropes are well known in fiction and as a non-Indian but still fellow person of color I can understand barbecue's frustration/trepidation. Like I can certainly jam with white protagonists and what not but I still really appreciate that like people like Teferi exist in the game or that Theros had a lot of Black people in it.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I didn't know that fantasy-world Kaladesh was literally India. Good to know.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
The set in question was the future Kaladesh.(See initial quote below). We know nothing about that world, save for the scant tidbits that we have gotten so far from Origins, a set that by its very nature won't show much of any single one plane. We know nothing of the world, its politics, its inhabitants...nothing. It's completely off the mark to make any suppositions of what WotC has planned for Chandra's world. It's entirely out of line to make so many assumptions (all of them negative, of course) and imply some racist undertones at work by a staff of hundreds. We don't even know for sure if Chandra will be the hero of the inevitable Kaladesh set. We can safely assume she'll be a character. It will be weird if she is the only PW, or if all the PW are white. Weird in that is not a common thing (has that ever happened?) with planeswalkers in sets.
Lord knows I give WotC shit about a ton of things, but let's at least keep it to things that actually exist.
gee don't you know there are slim people in America
Again I'm not reading outrage from barbecube, just concern and frustration. That's different to me. Anyway, all we know about Kaladesh is through the window that Magic Origins provides. That window is specifically what we are discussing to my understanding and, right now, that is filtered through a white protagonist. I don't think that's a cause for pitchforks but I don't see a problem in questioning that or mentioning that politely to the powers that be how that can be a bit uncomfortable. You're right that this in no way informs us of the entirety Kaladesh and what its all about but again that doesn't appear to be the actual topic to me. But I can understand how some may be disappointed with this window given the greater context that extends beyond Magic the Gathering.
?
Sorry you lost me here.
Modern price spikes, yikes I'm glad I don't play/want to play Modern.
WanderingWind
Mecklemore Is My Favorite Wrapper
If we're now talking about Origins, this becomes even weirder of a conversation to have. Origins is about 5 planeswalkers. None of them are the "hero," save for in their little slice of the story that is being told on (so far) one card. Chandra is no more the "hero" of Origins than any of the other PWs.
And the main point, that as it is right now any supposition we make on what is and isn't at play in a set we know next to nothing about is just guesswork, still stands. It's simply not fair to take WotC to task based on severely lacking information and it's doesn't really seem appropriate to me to be upset, "concerned" or disappointed based on that same incomplete knowledge. That's my opinion on the last, if you feel differently, that's fine.
But this is Origins, aka a core set in everything but name. It's not going to have a strong focus on a single plane, so chances are we won't know much of anything of Chandra or her world until Kaladesh proper.
And the main point, that as it is right now any supposition we make on what is and isn't at play in a set we know next to nothing about is just guesswork, still stands. It's simply not fair to take WotC to task based on severely lacking information and it's doesn't really seem appropriate to me to be upset, "concerned" or disappointed based on that same incomplete knowledge. That's my opinion on the last, if you feel differently, that's fine.
But this is Origins, aka a core set in everything but name. It's not going to have a strong focus on a single plane, so chances are we won't know much of anything of Chandra or her world until Kaladesh proper.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Just because something is inspired by France that doesn't mean you have to stick the Eiffel Tower in there.
You actually do get to ignore the implications. That's what making your own world is all about.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Kaledesh looks very cool, and I really hope we go there in the next two years
[QUOTE="God's Beard!";167533057]Just because something is inspired by France that doesn't mean you have to stick the Eiffel Tower in there.
You actually do get to ignore the implications. That's what making your own world is all about.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't a fan of having the Khans cultures/races all sync up 1:1 with the real world to the degree they did. But the counter to that is that you risk whitewashing them all if you do the "rainbow-ization" badly, so there's potential issues in either direction.
You actually do get to ignore the implications. That's what making your own world is all about.[/QUOTE]
I wasn't a fan of having the Khans cultures/races all sync up 1:1 with the real world to the degree they did. But the counter to that is that you risk whitewashing them all if you do the "rainbow-ization" badly, so there's potential issues in either direction.
From the sounds of it, assuming things haven't changed in the "present day," it'll be an alternate take on the "artifact set" like Mirrodin, but more in-line with modern design principles. The story heavily suggests a world torn between artificers (the ruling class) and mages.
Of the 10 planes featured in Origins, only Kaladesh and Vryn are ones we haven't already been to (on cards), so I think they'll both get blocks sooner, rather than later. I think we'll also get a Shandalar block in the next 2 or 3 years as well. Originally I though we'd return to Dominaria for the 20th anniversary, but when that didn't happen, I thought maybe for the 25th, but I doubt they want to wait that long. From what I've seen of Regatha, it doesn't feel like it's fleshed out enough to warrant a block, but maybe they're planning to use it anyway.
acheron_xl
Member
Magic story is so dumb. I can't begin to fathom why anyone gives a shit about it. But then I have scarcely a Vorthos bone in my body. I'm all Johnny-Melvin. Which makes the bullshit world-building I've been doing in my set hilariously awkward.
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