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[acheron_xl]

I fucking hate it when MTGO locks my machine in the middle of a commander game. Makes me look like a douche. I think it's my 21:9 monitor.

edit: reconnect on my laptop, immediately destroyed the next turn by Maelstrom Wanderer. Never change, EDH.

 

[kirblar]

Kirblar's MTG Origins finance stuff:

Languish/Piledriver only good rares so far. Angel is good, but 18 for it seems ridiculous.

The PWs are a mixed bag. I think Liliana and NIssa are nuts. Nissa goes straight into just about every Commander deck, where she's basically a 3 mana draw engine. Liliana lets a creature die, flips, you get a replacement creature, then you have the option of reanimating that creature immediately or putting her at 5 loyalty! That's crazy! - the only trick is figuring out how to leverage her. I suspect these two will jump - set is not looking good, and these PWs are hard to reprint.

Oh, wait, Collected Company is a card. Both can go straight into decks using it without issues.

Gideon is bad because he's effectively 4 mana. He requires a TON of work to get going, unlike the prior two.

Chandra- maybe a niche 1 or 2 of. But you'd usually rather just have another burn spell.

Jace- Maybe he might be ok in some deck? He just seems like he doesn't do enough.

 

[Jhriad]

Gideon is bad because he's effectively 4 mana. He requires a TON of work to get going, unlike the prior two.

He's a 2/1 for W that is good early and is actually worthwhile mid-late as well because of his extra text/flip. Seems solid to me but the walkers are pretty hard to evaluate without seeing them in action.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Kirblar's MTG Origins finance stuff:

Languish/Piledriver only good rares so far. Angel is good, but 18 for it seems ridiculous.

The PWs are a mixed bag. I think Liliana and NIssa are nuts. Nissa goes straight into just about every Commander deck, where she's basically a 3 mana draw engine. Liliana lets a creature die, flips, you get a replacement creature, then you have the option of reanimating that creature immediately or putting her at 5 loyalty! That's crazy! - the only trick is figuring out how to leverage her. I suspect these two will jump - set is not looking good, and these PWs are hard to reprint.

Oh, wait, Collected Company is a card. Both can go straight into decks using it without issues.

Gideon is bad because he's effectively 4 mana. He requires a TON of work to get going, unlike the prior two.

Chandra- maybe a niche 1 or 2 of. But you'd usually rather just have another burn spell.

Jace- Maybe he might be ok in some deck? He just seems like he doesn't do enough.

Jace is awful. His front side can't do anything other than loot, and his back side is essentially worse than his front side. Gideon seems good because his front side passes the vanilla test and there seem to be enough white weenies to make the strategy viable again.

Languish is a card I'm iffy on simply because so far, this set sucks ass for control. Most of the impact cards make control worse. Languish is better than Crux, sure, but it simply can't kill Siege Rhino or Tasigur, which is a huge problem. If it avoided those AND its own Ojutai, that might be okay, but it doesn't. Piledriver Red is something I've been goldfishing today it wins every game on turn 4. I don't think control can beat that deck on the draw without happening to have Drown in Sorrow and the untapped mana to cast it.

I don't think Nissa is that good for the same reason I don't think Sarkhan Unbroken is good, really. If I have 7 lands in a green deck, why am I not just playing Ugin?

 

[aidan]

He's a 2/1 for W that is good early and is actually worthwhile mid-late as well because of his extra text/flip. Seems solid to me but the walkers are pretty hard to evaluate without seeing them in action.

Yeah. A 2/1 for W with (major) upside and a relevant activated ability certainly isn't 'bad.'

 

[Angry Grimace]

Yeah. A 2/1 for W with (major) upside and a relevant activated ability certainly isn't 'bad.'

Kytheon's problem is that he has to survive combat to transform and he's not durable at all on his own.

 

[Crocodile]

Kytheon's problem is that he has to survive combat to transform and he's not durable at all on his own.

Did you forget the part where it can make itself indestructible?

 

[Angry Grimace]

Did you forget the part where it can make itself indestructible?

No, this is why Kirblar says he's effectively 4 mana. You have to pay extra to make him get through. He seems better than he is because it looks like "1 mana planeswalker" but that's actually true. He's not a great walker for 4 mana plus potentially suiciding your other dudes.

 

[bigkrev]

I don't think Nissa is that good for the same reason I don't think Sarkhan Unbroken is good, really. If I have 7 lands in a green deck, why am I not just playing Ugin?

Because it's a fine card on turn 3 as a Civic Wayfinder, that has the upside of if you draw it in the late game it's actually a Planeswalker you would probably be willing to pay 4-5 mana for.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Because it's a fine card on turn 3 as a Civic Wayfinder, that has the upside of if you draw it in the late game it's actually a Planeswalker you would probably be willing to pay 4-5 mana for.

Civil Wayfinder fixes your mana, Nissa has a forest. I just don't think the investment in getting her to flip is going to be as rewarding as people believe it is. I'm not saying nobody will play Nissa (in fact I will probably play Nissa), I just don't think she's as wonderful as people are imagining. (And why the fuck doesn't her minus token have trample? So random)


VVVVVVV Jace AOT was quite good.

 

[OnPoint]

My future targets for singles once July rolls around (since I'm on self-imposed no buy zone right now)

• Collected Company x4
• Liliana DFC x4
• Nissa DFC x2
• Rabblemaster x4
• Bitterblossom x4

Should keep me busy for a while as I'm going to buy them slowly, one or two at a time. And the Bitterblossoms will be real tough to get, and I might trade for those anyhow. I'm kind of glad Origins looks like absolute crap so far, there's nothing I want/need from it aside from those two PW so far.

I feel like they're making up for Jace 2.0 with the recent bad string of Jace cards. 4.0 wasn't bad in Standard, but 5.0 was and 6.0 isn't looking much better. I wonder if they might be working up to a real powerful Jace 7.0 in the Vryn block and this is their way of softening the inevitable complaints from people.

 

[Crocodile]

No, this is why Kirblar says he's effectively 4 mana. You have to pay extra to make him get through. He seems better than he is because it looks like "1 mana planeswalker" but that's actually true. He's not a great walker for 4 mana plus potentially suiciding your other dudes.

I mean the card is still durable on its own. Anyway, nobody is asking you to play bad Magic so "you suicide your dudes" doesn't strike me as that strong a counterargument - I only feel that's a concern if you draw the card mid-game vs a Green deck and that doesn't change the fact that the card is still better than most one drops you'd want to run. If you want to say he's hard to turn on that's different but I would disagree because attacking with 3 creatures is something White aggro decks want to do anyway and there are a fair number of token making cards in Standard that make producing multiple creatures from one card is easy to do. I can't tell you if White aggro will be successful in the upcoming standard but the card is clearly excellent in that shell because it does everything that sort of deck wants to do anyway with high upside.

 

[kirblar]

Yeah. A 2/1 for W with (major) upside and a relevant activated ability certainly isn't 'bad.'

2/1s for 1 aren't really seeing play in Modern/Standard and you're almost always going to have to activate that ability in order to flip him.

So he's really a 2WW PW with a really hard flip mechanism. edit: beaten by Angry Grimace

He's not durable at all. None of them are, but Nissa is auto-card advantage, and Liliana draws removal off of your bigger threats while being bonkers if she flips.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I mean the card is still durable on its own. Anyway, nobody is asking you to play bad Magic so "you suicide your dudes" doesn't strike me as that strong a counterargument - I only feel that's a concern if you draw the card mid-game vs a Green deck and that doesn't change the fact that the card is still better than most one drops you'd want to run. If you want to say he's hard to turn on that's different but I would disagree because attacking with 3 creatures is something White aggro decks want to do anyway and there are a fair number of token making cards in Standard that make producing multiple creatures from one card is easy to do. I can't tell you if White aggro will be successful in the upcoming standard but the card is clearly excellent in that shell because it does everything that sort of deck wants to do anyway with high upside.

I think the card is a bit better than what kirblar sees it as, but he's completely right in saying he's effectively 4 mana if you want him to reliably transform without dying.

To piggyback on what kirblar is saying above, white aggro full of 2/1s hasn't been particularly good even if attacking is what it wants to do. Piledriver and Rabblemaster do basically the same thing except on turn 4 those decks are swinging for 18 and they can remove blockers with Wild Slash or Magma Spray where white can't really do all that much.

 

[OnPoint]

I get and kind of agree with the arguments that Gideon is basically not a 1CMC PW.

But in an aggro RW deck, say you play T1 Kythreon, T2 double Goblin Guide -> Swing at your opponent with all 3. Wouldn't that be worth your 2/1 dying to get something off the table and probably also crash in for 4 pts? I know it's magical xmas land to expect to keep and flip him, but that doesn't seem like a bad place for an aggro deck to be.

 

[Crocodile]

I don't disagree that say Goblins might be a better aggressive deck (I know an old DOTP had new art for Ringleader, I hope that gets a reprint too for Modern at least) than W/x aggro but I'm just viewing the card as a one drop with a bonus PW upside, not a 1CMC PW. It's a good one drop and if you ever flip it I consider it gravy. Yes, 2/1s for one haven't been doing super well recently but I still think the power is there. It's just a matter if the shell is there (I think it might indeed be there) and if the environment is friendly to that shell (I'm much less certain about that).

 

[Angry Grimace]

Piledriver Red really does have some unreasonable curves.

Frenzied Goblin --> Goblin Piledriver --> Goblin Rabblemaster (swing for 10) ---> Goblin Heelcutter (dash) (stop a blocker with Heelcutter, pay R to stop a second blocker with Frenzied Goblin) (swing for 24).

Christmasland for sure, but there other similarly aggressive curves when you get Foundry Street, Dragon Fodder, Piledriver, etc. The redundancy is almost there to make it oppressive.

PW evaluation:

Liliana = B+
Jace = F
Nissa = B+
Kytheon = B
Chandra = C-

 

[red13th]

Cube-wise Kytheon is hands down the best of the lot, it's not even close, followed IMO by Lily, Jace, Nissa and Chandra (but the latter two aren't very cubable at first glance).

 

[G.ZZZ]

I think you're all severely underestimating Jace.

Jace isn't the worst, he's the best PW of the bunch on the back of needing no work to flip and being 2 mana that can even block mana critters.

Jace is basically autoflip as soon as you untap with it, and then you essentially have a two mana planeswalker that has a +3 that loot but you can use only once, then you have the flipwalker that has a totally useless ultimate but a usable -3 and +1. 2 mana cards advantage engines are nothing to scoff at.

Think of it this other way: it's a looter that first turn loot, second turn draw, then it's half a diminish, then it draw another card and die.

Liliana is a lot better in a vacuum, but it's a 3 mana creature that has no way to flip itself unless with another card (or a second Liliana lol). It's nowhere as reliable.

Nissa, Gideon and Chandra are just bad. Nissa need too many lands to do anything, Gideon can't attack into anything pretty much, and Chandra is borderline but too hard to flip (since you won't be attacking with a 2/2 on turn 4 and casting 2 red spells the same turn is not easy in burn after T4)

Also Pia Nalaar isn't a 2$ rare. It will see constructed play.

You may quote me and shame me in a month. Actually we should do a shame topic for MtG speculators

 

[Angry Grimace]

Jace is horrible because looters aren't constructed playable unless you're playing Dredge or something and his backside abilities don't do anything useful.

 

[kirblar]

I don't think he's bad- I just see him as more niche, because he's kinda awful vs a lot of deck styles that can just overrun him or smack him down immediately.

 

[Angry Grimace]

I don't think he's bad- I just see him as more niche, because he's kinda awful vs a lot of deck styles that can just overrun him or smack him down immediately.

I honestly can't even fathom the deck that would play Jace.

 

[crimsonspider89]

I can see Nissa seeing play in an elf deck since she is an elf that could function as a finisher if drawn late game. Same for a ramp deck.

Liliana, any sac engine. The others, not so much.

Chandra maybe a one or two of.

 

[kirblar]

I honestly can't even fathom the deck that would play Jace.

Control mirror post-board in a post-ashiok world? It needs to be a durdly matchup.

 

[Angry Grimace]

Control mirror post-board in a post-ashiok world? It needs to be a durdly matchup.

Why would he even be good there? His back side doesn't do anything at all a control mirror.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Liliana is a lot better in a vacuum, but it's a 3 mana creature that has no way to flip itself unless with another card (or a second Liliana lol). It's nowhere as reliable.

That's not a joke-worthy play. The fact that she's a legendary creature that has a relevant effect when you draw more than one is a big deal. The only other flipwalker that has that is Nissa, which is why they're both solid. Chandra can untap herself when you play a second one, but that's way worse than the other two effects unless it's going to kill your opponent.

Jace is cool because of how free his abilities are, but I don't know that his effect is strong enough to warrant him over other cards. It's basically a worse thassa attached to a much worse den protector. Looting when you untap just isn't a high enough upside. Elvish Visionary actually trades with a cheap creature in some matchups and provides you immediate card advantage. I'd way rather pay two for that than Jace. The only time I see Jace being ok is in Whip. He gets haste that way and flips into a walker to avoid getting exiled, but at that point his + is pretty irrelevant and you probably don't need to snapcast a murderous cut. But he's still worse than just about any other card you want in the deck.

 

[Transhuman]

It's going to be weird seeing people killing their own creatures with an instant so that Lilianna can flip before their opponent's instant targeting Lilianna resolves.

 

["God's Beard!"]

It's going to be weird seeing people killing their own creatures with an instant so that Lilianna can flip before their opponent's instant targeting Lilianna resolves.

Or flash in Silumgar Sorcerer.


Elvish Visionary -> Liliana -> xxx -> Sidisi, Undead Visier exploit Visionary, flip liliana reanimate visionary and draw a card is big game. That's just good deckbuilding.

 

[Jhriad]

Still waiting for the Rare/Mythic zombie to drop. With Cruel Revival, Liliana, and the two common zombies it seems like something is coming. If Goblins & Elves are a thing it would be fitting to see Zombies back as well.

 

[blindrocket]

Too bad they can't reprint this in Origins?

I have a playset of those.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

I have a playset of those.

Good for you. Modern speculators are already buying them out.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Finally got some good games on Cockatrice teaching this Stoneblade dude how to play against Reanimator. Games one and two were nice and slow so I could go over different lines with him, and game three was just the nuts so I could show him the raw power of Reanimator.

Turn one Iona on White with counter backup, but in retrospect Sire of Insanity might have been a slightly better play. Hard to say. Sire gives him an extra turn and top decking land -> swords as an out but Karakas could be problematic and a likely card in an opening hand game 3.

 

[pelicansurf]

We did the last Modern Masters draft tonight at my LGS and I ended up going 3-0, $40 in credit, and a Bitterblossom to boot. Was piloting a very fast and strong U/R Elementals deck.

 

[Jhriad]

Modern speculators are already buying them out.

Add them to the list of buyouts alongside Legion Loyalist.

 

[Matriox]

That's gonna be a thing.

 

[SigmasonicX]

That's from GP Singapore, BTW, which is why it's on a stand. Not sure if that means more will be spoiled.

Seems pretty good, especially with its flexibility. Monoblue devotion comeback? (Once it finds a way around Goblin Piledriver)

 

[Matriox]

That's from GP Singapore, BTW, which is why it's on a stand. Not sure if that means more will be spoiled.

Seems pretty good, especially with its flexibility. Monoblue devotion comeback? (Once it finds a way around Goblin Piledriver)

Seems nutty in Mono Blue Devotion or Collected Company..

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Maybe a Standard playable. Legacy definitely doesn't want it. I can't imagine Modern wants it over Tidebinder Mage, but I could be wrong.

 

[Matriox]

Maybe a Standard playable. Legacy definitely doesn't want it. I can't imagine Modern wants it over Tidebinder Mage, but I could be wrong.

Seems great with aethervial.

 

[kirblar]

I have a playset of those.

Bought a playset of all the tribal lands over 2 years ago since they'd be impossible to reprint.

That card is super-real, I think we have a tribal cycle here w/ Piledriver inserted by development.

 

[divisionbyzorro]

Bought a playset of all the tribal lands over 2 years ago since they'd be impossible to reprint.

Actually, if they weren't reprinting enemy painlands in this set, they easily could have reprinted some of them here. It would have made a lot of sense to put some of Magic's iconic tribes and the tribal lands into the set.

 

[kirblar]

This set was totally rescued by development. It's the PW (which are all dev) and the obvious inserted Spike cards here that are holding this set up.

 

[manipulate]

Whoa harbinger of tide looks good

 

[Exokell]

Mono blue devotion might be a thing again. Anyway how is woodland bellower a mythic? This set maybe has the worst mythics.

 

[charlequin]

The problem is that the "these nerds are gross and sweaty and chasing away all the women" argument is that it doesn't explain this competitive disparity showing up in a game like Chess.

I'm not really making that argument, exactly. It's not that women are turned off by it being gross and fundamentally socially unpleasant; it's that almost everybody is, which means the people you're left with are the ones with that strong competitive reward mechanism (which, like you mention, whatever its cause, is here and today far dominantly a male thing.)

I think the thing that suffers mostly isn't hyper-competitive, high-level play -- the women who both enjoy and succeed there there are also going to usually be the type of people who wouldn't be dissuaded by social concerns -- but rather low-level organized play. Something like a prere or FNM shouldn't be this dominantly ultra-competitive, unpleasant environment, but both women and men who are socially enjoyable to interact with are in short supply in most store environments because of the high tolerance for awful behavior you need to survive there.

 

[blindrocket]

Good for you. Modern speculators are already buying them out.

It's funny, the only reason that I bought them was because I was trying to sweeten that Nissa Elf deck that they sold a few years back. It was when they sold those Duels of the Planeswalkers decks. I bought a couple Nissa PW cards too that I've always hung on to for some reason. I liked how she fetched that Elf creature card, if I remember correctly.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Mono blue devotion might be a thing again.

I raced this monoblue devotion player at the GPT semifinals by milling over double Raptor on turn two lol

I was like, well, your triple Gudul Lurkers don't look so hot.

It feels like Origins is giving everyone the tools to weenie aggro decks then printing Languish.

 

[MjFrancis]

I am pretty terrible at Modern Masters 2 drafts. My money pick on the first one was Remand. For my second draft the best card I got to take home was Electrolyze.

On the bright side the games were fun, and I won a long game against a field of two dozen or so tokens with Goblin Fireslinger + Gut Shot. It felt like it should have been impossible and my opponent was confused on why I hadn't conceded yet.

I'll stick to poor man's drafts for the future.

 

["God's Beard!"]

After all this time I just figured out why people call WotC wahtsee.

 

[The Technomancer]

Doing my first and probably last MM2 draft at a party with friends tonight. Not super hyped or anything but it should be fun