What else would you call them? None of the changes I've seen are bad...
Majoras Mask 3D - Review Thread
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Coffee Dog
Banned
turns out quite a few people feel differently and have explained their reasoning at length.
Pausing the game every time you meet a person involved in a sidequest for the first time seems like a bad change to me. So does the new swimming mechanics.
Solid SOAP
Member
I think that I can respect the disdain towards certain changes, I just think people are looking at the original with very, VERY rosily-tinted glasses.
I saw someone say that the slightly altered position of the moon's face in respect to looking above from Clock Town will substantially ruin the tone of the game... what?
Did the original game not do this? I haven't seen any videos of the new features because I want to keep this new version fresh, but I have beaten this game plenty of times and I remember once you obtained the Bombers Notebook, after speaking to almost any person in Clock Town you'd get a message saying something along the lines of, say; "You've just met Anju! It looks like she has a secret, I wonder what it is?"
Zora controls in MM are my favorite swimming mechanics in any game, ever, so seeing them get gimped just hurts. Yes, there's a learning curve, but you have plenty of time to learn while you're swimming through the huge vast expanses of the Great Bay. Instead of rewarding more skilled players they're just punishing everyone. And no, the magic meter swimming isn't a replacement unless things have been redesigned to have magic everywhere underwater so you virtually never run out, like with the Goron in Termina field.
As for the Notebook, having the HMS give you it seems pointless. Playing with the bombers as a deku is mandatory to move on with the game and they straight up tell you you can join as a human. Plus once you enter and leave the hideout again you get given it anyway, so it'd be pretty hard to miss the notebook altogether. It's not like there are many other things distracting you at that point in the game. Should they also have the HMS give you the Great Fairy's Mask? That's as "difficult" to find as the bomber's notebook and almost as "essential" (AKA: needed for sidequests and nothing else).
You said:
In response to a post about someone saying they primarily got satisfaction from beating the game. You specifically use the phrase "I don't understand." So unless I'm wrong, it seems like you did not understand that a decrease in difficulty due to these changes would also decrease the satisfaction that person got from completing the game.
the reason you couldn't warp to whatever time you wanted is because they wanted to force the player to discover OTHER things while they were pursuing ONE thing
now you just check things off a list the game tells about beforehand like every other boring game
the reason you couldn't "reload" arbitrarily was so you had to plan ahead, which forces you to notice and care about the way the game works and the details of the world
now you just do whatever you want and keep reloading until you eventually "succeed" like every other boring game
it is a very delicate balance a game strikes between how much to hand to the player for merely being capable of following directions, how much to reward the player for nothing more than persistence, and when actually expect that they figure out something out
now you just check things off a list the game tells about beforehand like every other boring game
the reason you couldn't "reload" arbitrarily was so you had to plan ahead, which forces you to notice and care about the way the game works and the details of the world
now you just do whatever you want and keep reloading until you eventually "succeed" like every other boring game
it is a very delicate balance a game strikes between how much to hand to the player for merely being capable of following directions, how much to reward the player for nothing more than persistence, and when actually expect that they figure out something out
Jo Shishido's Cheeks
Member
Every change made to OoT was for the better so I trust Nintendo here.
The majority sound like they add convenience rather than ruin anything from the way I'm understanding things.
The majority sound like they add convenience rather than ruin anything from the way I'm understanding things.
Nah, it just made me go to a specific area, put the controller down for a few minutes, and return to the game when the time came and I was able to do whatever it was I needed to do.
Spieler Eins
Member
Not really. Just because the original is out there (like Star Wars VHS tapes, the limited DVD run of the originals and probably the option of pirating those) doesn't change that the new version (which will probably be handled as the ,,definitive'' one in the future) has both good improvements, but also clearly shit alterations that deserve to be called out, because they stick out like a cast of CGI monsters in a 70s movie and worsen the original experience, no matter how often you call these core changes ,,optional'' through potentially handicapping your own playthrough. Yes, one might still enjoy the crappy version of MM, just like you can tolerate the dumb versions of Star Wars, but there still have been awful decisions made that must not be swept under the rug, just because.... well, I don't even know why anyone would defend this :lol Certainly can't come from MM fans. And even Zelda fans in general seemed to agree that handholding is worsening the series, but now it's a welcome addition? Some are really breaking their back to not let any legit criticism get towards Nintendo (which seems to be the bigger picture, correlating with certain other topics, alongside others that never appreciated the game to begin with.). I found the quick 180 from that guy on the Nintendo analysis channel funny, originally bringing up the shitastic Zora change. Obviously badly disappointed in the original vid, yet instantly making some dumb excuse video ''l-l-look, it's not ... that bad!? right? because now one or two rooms in the dungeon are like... better. I think?''. Instead of simply calling a shitty change by what it is. Not everything Nintendo does is ingenious and this port has some George Lucas-level idiocy (guys, Vader must cry NOOO, so even the braindead understand why he doesn't want to see his son die!).
Solid SOAP
Member
Or you just... don't...
There's so much going on in the world that it doesn't make sense to abuse the save system, all of those things are still going on, nothing has been removed. Lose the alien battle at the ranch? You could load and try it again and again, or you could do one of the other million things going on in Termina. I find it highly doubtful that there will be many players abusing this new save system. I'll admit it's my least favorite of all the changes, but I do not see how it is such an immersion breaking, terrible thing in the context of the game.
DeviousAngel
Member
My favourite game of all time. Having beat the original 14 times I, for one, welcome all changes. It can only make it feel fresher.
Not having played it yet, I can only think it's a matter of "convenience" versus "atmosphere/world".
The changes are convenient if you treat the game as a big finish line, as a challenge to complete, one you can't be bothered to lose too much time with. On one side that's understandable and even good, because the game respects your time and is more accessible.
However in the old game, the not so convenient way in which things worked actually helped shaping a world with a precise set of rules and restrictions. A world in which you could easily lose yourself, in which sometimes you had to lose yourself.
Maybe being accessible and convenient is not something that works for everything, maybe a certain atmoshere and artistic vision can only be achieved through other, less convenient means.
MM3D is now probably a better "product": more responsive, easy to use, flashier, smarter, more systematic and coherent, but it's part of the invisible and intangible "spirit" of the game that seems changed.
The changes are convenient if you treat the game as a big finish line, as a challenge to complete, one you can't be bothered to lose too much time with. On one side that's understandable and even good, because the game respects your time and is more accessible.
However in the old game, the not so convenient way in which things worked actually helped shaping a world with a precise set of rules and restrictions. A world in which you could easily lose yourself, in which sometimes you had to lose yourself.
Maybe being accessible and convenient is not something that works for everything, maybe a certain atmoshere and artistic vision can only be achieved through other, less convenient means.
MM3D is now probably a better "product": more responsive, easy to use, flashier, smarter, more systematic and coherent, but it's part of the invisible and intangible "spirit" of the game that seems changed.
Stereogatari
Banned
I had no idea it was time for reviews to hit.
Solid SOAP
Member
I'm very interested to hear how these new changes can take one out of the gameworld.
Rez Raider
Member
Doesn't seem too bad on changes, it looks so weird seeing the Zora swim like that though lol.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Well, skipping ahead through time literally removes you from the game world for a set period as opposed to waiting around or doing other activities in it.
Once again, you can say "waiting around sucks!" and that's fine, but other people value things differently.
Solid SOAP
Member
Why would you want to wait around though? If you have enough time to kill where waiting would be tedious and you'd literally be doing nothing, you can find other things to accomplish during that period of time. If you need to skip ahead to a very specific point in the game, now it's just easier.
But you could skip ahead in time in the original... the only difference now is that you can skip ahead to anytime you want, removing the need to do it multiple times if you needed to skip more than 12 hours ahead.
DeviousAngel
Member
This is true. But if you think about it, there's a lot of people that skipped this game or couldn't finish it because they found its "atmosphere/world/spirit" far too oppressive. I would love it if these changes get Majora's Mask out there for more people to try out, even if it isn't quite the same. Maybe someday they'll go back to the original to see what the fuss is all about.
SPREAD THE MM LOVE!
So does skipping 12 hours in the original game.
ShadowElliot
Banned
Even though I had many opportunities to play Majora's Mask, this will be my first time. Can't wait along with my New 3DS XL!
Beelzebufo
Banned
I keep thinking there must be more reviews, but there's just more pages 
Hopefully it's good!
Hopefully it's good!
Few examples:
-New save system removes a lot of pressure you were meant to constantly feel. Originally, you felt the same stress the townspeople felt. Now, no problem, you can always revert to a recent save.
-(If the bomber's notebook is as people say it is) Being told where everyone will be at what time removes having to follow them around, interact with them and learn their schedules on your own. It discourages exploration in an exploration heavy game. (Again, only if this is true. I don't know if it is).
-That a Zora, a sea creature, can't naturally swim gracefully and speedily makes no sense. Every fish in that sea better have trouble swimming until they start glowing.
Coffee Dog
Banned
Yes, but there is quite a bit of difference when you look at time spent in the game world when you consider the intentional inaccuracy of the old time skipping system. A whole 12 hour window as opposed to instantly arriving when you need.
All these changes especially the new save-scumming ready save system and the bomber’s notebook basically becoming the Pip-boy, I can’t wait for all the ‘meh finally Played Majora’s Mask and its sooooo overrated’ posts.
Also: Anyone praising the new bombers notebook forfeits their right to complain about handholding in Zelda, both going forward and retroactively.
Also: Anyone praising the new bombers notebook forfeits their right to complain about handholding in Zelda, both going forward and retroactively.
Again, that's only speculation based on what we know, I may be completely wrong. Also I'm frankly ok with the changes, even if I don't particularly like them at the moment: I played the original, so whatever, I'd be mad only if they gave the same treatment to a potential sequel.
I'm not even saying it takes you out of the game world, I'm saying it's not the same world anymore. The wold is
I was thinking about Antichamber as an example, a genial game which is neither intuitive nor convenient. However roaming those white and void halls with no help or hints is part of the experience: if it was patched to be more user-friendly the game would become a massive pile of poop.
A.D. Skinner
Member
So I pop into these Majora's Mask threads every now and again, and the things you guys talk about...I am really confused!
This is coming from someone who has played every LoZ except for MM. I am really looking forward to it though!
This is coming from someone who has played every LoZ except for MM. I am really looking forward to it though!
Spieler Eins
Member
Speaking of which, this also kinda damps my hype for Zelda U. Seems like they were fine with less tutorials in ALBW, because 2D games are more simple in general. Yet something like MM is apparently rocket science and players discovering mechanics on their own and offering them a little more profound structures isn't a possibility anymore.
Love Deterrence
Member
It's been ages since I played Majora's Mask. Looking forward to picking this up and playing it on the go! First review looking good!!
Dash Kappei
Not actually that important
I've never played MM (! Only Zelda I'm missing, sorry) but those all sound for the good changes?
Unless I'm reading those wrong (for reference, I preferred Pikmin 1 time system to its sequels and I can say the same for Dead Rising 1 save system which made me enjoy the game MUCH MUCH MORE compared to that of DR2/OTR... have no interest in DR3 atm).
Bad decision seems to be the swimming's speed, why do you think they would do such thing?
Solid SOAP
Member
Yes, but, the very nature of reverting to that previous save is not part of the intended game design and is immersion breaking. You'd literally have to shut the game off to do so, which clearly isn't what the developers intended for players to do. I will not deny that it exists and the option is there, but you'd have to make the commitment to leaving the gameworld in order to do so. It's not like you can just go back in time.
Fire Emblem Awakening is a good example of this. The way the game was intended to be played was this... you lose a soldier, they're dead forever. Simple. However, many people, including myself, have opted to restart each battle upon losing a pivotal member of my army. This goes against the design philosophy of the game, and it is immersion breaking, but the option still exists to make things easier for newcomers. Now that I was able to overcome it using an exploit, I feel more motivated to go back to that game and play it as intended. The ability to do so didn't hinder my enjoyment of the game at all, it only gave me the motivation to try again.
How is this any different from the Goron form requiring magic in order to roll as fast as other Gorons and have the additional advantage of spikes protruding from your body ? Now the same logic applies to the Zora form.
Chizzanger
Member
Look, I'm sorry the game has been changed. I understand you don't agree with all the changes.
The guy I quoted said that his number one reason for playing games was to complete them, everything else was secondary. I was simply asking how making a game easier would thereby diminish his satisfaction if he could beat the game faster. He gave me an answer, whereby I could then appreciate his point of view. That's it lol. I'm done with the thread If you want to continue this you can PM me.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
I do not agree that there any changes that even remotely approximate what you are describing. Now what?
Star Wars was ruined because Lucas is a hack. Nintendo has done this twice now, with OOT3D and WWHD, and both were wonderful. Nothing I've seen in MM3D, with the possible and slight exception of Zora swimming, indicates that it will be any different.
BTW, people deriding the new notebook, show me a video where meeting someone for the first time places their future locations in your notebook. This is what people hate, and I've never seen it. If it's true, I agree that it's bad. But I don't think it's true.
MAX PAYMENT
Member
Isn't this really early for reviews?
I blame the death of manuals. Now everything has to be explained inside the game with as much clarity as you can.
No, nobody uses the electronic manual, I'm pretty sure lots of people don't even know it exists.
You played Zelda II but not Majora's Mask? Why do you hate yourself?
Now seriously, you're going to have a blast with it, with ot without the changes, if you played it 15 years ago though... at that time it was groundbreaking to say the least.
-this doesn't make any sense. The only pressure it removes is the pressure of maybe failing a side quest and having to repeat everything the next cycle, since there's the possibility of reverting to an old save. The moon is still falling, the world is still ending.
Personally in practice, I doubt this will make any difference, other than maybe the final part of the Anju quest.
-the notebook only notes down what NPCs tell you. It doesn't tell you anything else, as far as schedule goes it only tells you someone's schedule once you witnessed it yourself, like in the original iirc
If you don't use double time at all, you'll also spend more time in the game world. That's why the song is there in the first place, if someone doesn't want to kill time or just look at the wall, the song is there and it's more practical now. If you want to do something, don't use it or skip to an earlier point in time and do your thing. Link has a magic Ocarina that let's him control time, why should he have to bore himself to death waiting for 4 pm to come?
There was a thread earlier about respecting a player's time, this is what that is like.
Don't the Bomber only give rumors, hints? It's not like they outright tell you what's happening/what's gonna happen, right?
Well yea, originally it wasn't part of the game. But now, it is. Whether that's a bad thing or not is up to opinion but as long as it's there I view it as a negative. I mean, how often is someone who lets the moon fall in this version gonna just let it fall and redo a cycle? Never, that's how often. They're gonna turn off the game and go back to their last save. When the option is there, people will use it.
This completely changes the game for newcomers, because when they get to a timed event at which failure will result in a cycle repeat, they won't be thinking "Whatever I do cannot fuck this up", they'll be thinking "Whoops, better try again." Not the same tone in the slightest, and IMO, that has a major negative impact on the atmosphere of the game.
There is magic everywhere for the Goron to pick up on every expansive reach of flat land. If the game has been changed so that the same is true for the Zora, I won't have an issue mechanically but I will still have an issue thematically. For the Goron, they are big, slow creatures so it makes sense that they take time to build up speed. Zoras, on the other hand, are a lot more light and graceful, so it makes sense for them to be immediately quick. A sea creature should feel like a sea creature, not a human with a motor.
zeldarocks
Neo Member
The embargo ends tomorrow at 10 AM CST.
Tathanen
Get Inside Her!
It's still immediate, there's no wind-up like there is for Gorons. It just requires magic.
LegalEagleMike
Member
Not for Nintendo.
I wasn't aware of this, that's somewhat better. Though it still would have even been better to provide an option to slow down rather than speed up. A fish can naturally swim quickly and accurately, the same should be true for the Zora IMO.
I don't agree. When Link puts on a transformation mask, he becomes the creature that it used to, and (at least I assume) Link gains all the skills they had while alive. He should be no more or less skillful than they were in before death.
Solid SOAP
Member
But you're not actually a Zora, you're a human-being whose body has manifested into one. It makes complete sense that you'd need to use magic to harness their unique abilities.
Again, the same logic applies to the Goron form. Gorons naturally can roll fast, but Link requires magic.
Here's a question for the purists out there - you people have been touting Majoras Mask as the best zelda game every time a new one comes out , the amount of hype you've built up about this games alleged greatness is something that no game anywhere can ever hope to live up to.
The thing is though, I tried playing MM back in the day very briefly and I hated the idea that I had to adhere to a time limit, it's a game design gimmick that I rarely put up with. It also seemed as though it took the worst aspect of OOT - collecting a bunch of junk to give to people for other junk and made that the entire focus of the game. My favorite part of any zelda game is the dungeons - this one has only 4 and you can't even take your time because well, there isn't any.
For me to even attempt to play this game , even to give a chance - it would need to make the non-dungeon elements much easier to manage and - for me I should - less of a hindrance to the player.
So would the purists out there rather say "screw that guy (as in me)" for not wanting anything to do with the way this game originally worked or would they rather I at least try and play it ? Something I'm MUCH more willing to do reading about all these changes - a proper save system and the ability to do each task in the game at my own pace rather then as the original dictated.
I honestly get the feeling the same people that have been touting this game so much for 10 + years would rather I just didn't play it and appreciate it in it's arguably much improved form on the 3DS.
I want someone in this thread to tell me I'm off base here because this prevalent attitude is almost enough to sour me on even giving the new version a chance.
The thing is though, I tried playing MM back in the day very briefly and I hated the idea that I had to adhere to a time limit, it's a game design gimmick that I rarely put up with. It also seemed as though it took the worst aspect of OOT - collecting a bunch of junk to give to people for other junk and made that the entire focus of the game. My favorite part of any zelda game is the dungeons - this one has only 4 and you can't even take your time because well, there isn't any.
For me to even attempt to play this game , even to give a chance - it would need to make the non-dungeon elements much easier to manage and - for me I should - less of a hindrance to the player.
So would the purists out there rather say "screw that guy (as in me)" for not wanting anything to do with the way this game originally worked or would they rather I at least try and play it ? Something I'm MUCH more willing to do reading about all these changes - a proper save system and the ability to do each task in the game at my own pace rather then as the original dictated.
I honestly get the feeling the same people that have been touting this game so much for 10 + years would rather I just didn't play it and appreciate it in it's arguably much improved form on the 3DS.
I want someone in this thread to tell me I'm off base here because this prevalent attitude is almost enough to sour me on even giving the new version a chance.
It's been 5 or so years since my last full playthrough of MM but can't you just play the Song of Time and return to the point you're at in a dungeon fairly quickly? I thought it saved your small keys and unlocked doors.
I wouldn't say it like that, but honestly not everyone has to like every game. If what you value most of a Zelda game is the dungeons, OoT/TP are more up your alley. If you're playing MM solely for the dungeons that's your own decision, but the real meat of the game is in the side quests. If that's not your thing, that's fine, the game just isn't for you.
You don't need to force yourself to play through the 60% of a game that you don't like just to get to the 40% you do enjoy.
It's not a "gimmick" as much as playing a game in third or first person, having or not having a jump button, etc. aren't "gimmicks". It's a pretty deliberate design choice which works perfectly within the design philosophy of the game.
Of course I'm not saying "screw that guy", the game's apparently just not for you. Not everybody loves the same games. I can't get into the much acclaimed FFXII for example. However if you want to try the remake, go for it, I don't see why I would advise you otherwise.
SirNinja
Member
...No? The game's out in less than ten days.