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[Karsticles]

Agreed. That's why I keep mentioning that I feel X-factor needs tweaked in some serious ways. Finding out how far when shaving X-factors is too far before it thins the newcomers too thin will be tricky though.

I just wanted to throw my hat in and defend the newcomers that this game drew in from comments that attack them like it's their fault that their new and just weren't a part of the community already.

When you're new you're scrubby and need cheap tools and learning the game is a steep and rough slope thats easy to get intimidated by without those tools. Saying learn the game and yelling at them isn't an answer. Figuring out how to balance X-factor through careful thought and making good suggestions is.

Direct your anger appropriately...at unfair things like lvl 3 X-factor's time length and certain characters having too steep of a bonus during it. Not at people who use it because their new and have to use it as a crutch while they slowly practice up the tools that will allow them to stop relying on it later.

Agreed. Personally, I haven't played a fighter seriously until this game. I played MvC2 Sentinel for the entirety of its life, but only just a year ago knew what a tier was! Sentinel was always on my team, but I didn't even know what fly/unfly combos were. However, I never whined about character balance, and I think this game would be better without X-Factor.

Whatever they do to x-factor, I'd like them to play up the variety of things you can use it for. Guard cancel and no-chip are cool features because it gives people another option to use their x-factor effectively: use it on reaction in a defensive situation instead of to extend your combo. In a game where players (especially beginners) can feel helpless as they're comboed for 30 seconds straight, having a powerful defensive option they can choose when to activate helps new players assert some control over the match even when they're getting clobbered.

I actually really dislike the "no chip" aspect. This unfairly affects some characters, like Dormammu. If I am fighting against, say, X-23, and we both use level 3 X-Factor, she just became a whole lot scarier, and she's also safer from me than ever.

Pretty sure Viper doesn't have any infinite combos. Also, Karsticles, turning x-factor into a cancel worth 1 hyper meter sounds pretty op, wasn't that what baroques basically were in TvC? Jwong said he felt that they were pretty op in TvC.

You are thinking of the "Mega Crash" system perhaps, which was basically a combo breaker. I agree something like this would be too powerful in Marvel, just because, suddenly hypers would not be worth much at all. I am only talking about canceling your own actions, not clearing yourself of hitstun.

- Auto-pick the assist for each character. The "choose your assist" menu confuses every new player I try to introduce to the game.

They could do the whole "Recommended!" deal like with MvC2.

- Auto-activate x-factor if it hasn't been used yet when there's say 10 seconds left on the clock or you're on your last character with less than half health. This way beginners won't forget to use it.

This is an atrocious idea. I can't tell you how many fights I've used X-Factor within those last 10 seconds to pull through. 3 seconds left on the clock in an even match, X-Factor cancel block stun into Doom's Time, GG. I understand this is is merely a suggested option, but I don't think we should implement aspects into the game that actively encourage players to not think.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

Some other things that could make the game more beginner-friendly. These could either be Simple Mode features, or something togglable in the game options.

- Auto-pick the assist for each character. The "choose your assist" menu confuses every new player I try to introduce to the game.
- Auto-activate x-factor if it hasn't been used yet when there's say 10 seconds left on the clock or you're on your last character with less than half health. This way beginners won't forget to use it.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

I actually really dislike the "no chip" aspect. This unfairly affects some characters, like Dormammu. If I am fighting against, say, X-23, and we both use level 3 X-Factor, she just became a whole lot scarier, and she's also safer from me than ever.

It would be boring if x-factor's usefulness was identical for every character.

They could do the whole "Recommended!" deal like with MvC2.

That would work too.

This is an atrocious idea. I can't tell you how many fights I've used X-Factor within those last 10 seconds to pull through. 3 seconds left on the clock in an even match, X-Factor cancel block stun into Doom's Time, GG. I understand this is is merely a suggested option, but I don't think we should implement aspects into the game that actively encourage players to not think.

That's why it would only make sense for beginners, hence being a feature of Simple Mode.

 

[Karsticles]

It would be boring if x-factor's usefulness was identical for every character.

That's fine, I didn't say it has to be identical. What I did say is that X-Factor negating chip damage is a poor mechanic for the reason above. It favors a certain class of character, since normals have no chip.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

That's fine, I didn't say it has to be identical. What I did say is that X-Factor negating chip damage is a poor mechanic for the reason above. It favors a certain class of character, since normals have no chip.

Team Aerial Combos favor characters that can easily rushdown and start air combos.
The DHC mechanic favors characters with certain types of supers.
etc

 

[Karsticles]

Team Aerial Combos favor characters that can easily rushdown and start air combos.
The DHC mechanic favors characters with certain types of supers.
etc

Neither of these are 1-time decisions that can lose you the entire game. These are just horrible analogies. Yes, characters are different. That does not mean X-Factor should negate chip, rending the offense of a solid portion of the cast crippled.

Beyond that:
1) TACs might be easier to initiate with rushdown characters, but this does not mean they actually favor them more. Generally, characters who do not rush need the most meter; it's a team-based ability.

2) Maybe DHCing into, but not out of. Chaotic Flame might DHC from pretty much everything, but DHCing out of Chaotic Flame is something only a small portion of the cast can do effectively. On the other hand, it might be more difficult to DHC into Shuma-Gorath's Hyper Mystic Smash, but it's very easy to DHC out of it. You really have to take it on a case-by-case basis. Some characters just fit together in this regard, and others don't. I haven't noticed any particular hypers that can both DHC into and DHC out of everything very easily.

Regardless, neither of these have anything to do with whether it is a good idea for X-Factor to negate chip damage. This isn't even an argument.

 

[HiResDes]

Something needs to be done about X-factor, and I'm confident that when it is modified it will make an already good game, great.

 

[Ferrio]

Regardless, neither of these have anything to do with whether it is a good idea for X-Factor to negate chip damage. This isn't even an argument.

X factor to negate chip is fine, and this coming from a dorm player who curses whenever someone activates it. Chip damage in this game is insane, and for low health characters it's completely nuts sometimes (especially if you have xfactor). You're still running down their xfactor timer while they're in blockstun, no reason to punish them anymore for using it and blocking.

I'd say negating chip damage and the ability to break outta block stun are the two things with xfactor that capcom got right.

 

[shaowebb]

Some of those ideas Parallax Scroll are pretty out there, but there is a simple mode beginners can use for their inputs in this game. Maybe they could tack your x-factor atuo activate onto that but I'm in the mindset that the game doing anything without you hitting a button is wrong and that this is a very bad idea for even new players to have created for them.

Say you were trying to do a move and you ended up x factor canceled due to this? I don't think it would help people.

Providing a reccomended option for assists would be great. Hell i'd make the point character's recommended their overall most useful one and then anyone you select after them's recomendation based off of how the two work as a team.

This is a good idea.

I still think X-factor healing eliminating chip is good though. Imagine Phoenix without it. For the cast with all those other unbalancing boost numbers though they need a long hard look by Capcom QA.

It's good we're trying to think of stuff now though that caters too beginners and elites alike.

Yay peace talks.

 

[Ashkeloth]

Neither of these are 1-time decisions that can lose you the entire game. These are just horrible analogies. Yes, characters are different. That does not mean X-Factor should negate chip, rending the offense of a solid portion of the cast crippled.

Regardless, neither of these have anything to do with whether it is a good idea for X-Factor to negate chip damage. This isn't even an argument.

On one hand, yeah, X-factor negating chip damage does favour rushdown characters, but if it didn't, then it would encourage keepaway playstyles even more, and with the right character setup, the last character of anyone fighting a keepaway team might as well not exist as X-factor + chip damage would undoubtedly kill them without them being able to do anything.

More than anything, X-factor negating chip damage is the least of the problems applied to it. It encourages a diverse team instead of just 3 guys that can sit in a corner all day chipping away a lifebar.

The way I see things, all X-factor needs is to be less of a Smash Bros. "You're probably gonna die at least once" final smash type thing, and more of a if you know how to utilize it, it allows some really awesome stuff to happen kind of thing such as Roman or Rapid cancels in GG/BB.

 

[DR2K]

Sentinel vs Ammy right now is officially the worst match up in the game.

Who ever gets the first hit wins. It's in neither of their favor.

 

[Solune]

*Intelligent post*

Thread's going fast, but I'll respond anyways even if I end up reiterating someone's post.

1. I understand what he was saying, it's what happens to most fighting games in general, major or not. Not trying to be a smart aleck, but it's called Metagame.

2. I can see how X-factor can seem appealing to newbies and scrubs because it enables them to win by vast majorities or make a "miraculous" comeback.

3. This brings me to my next point, when scrubs or newbies lose, they DON'T realize their mistakes or grow - This is the important part and this brings me to why I say Learn the game. It's because of people that hate to lose but like to have their wins shoved down their throat and given to them like some Woman-shaped pacifier to suck on dry that we get shit like X-factor and NERFED Sentinel. I don't care how you spin it, Sentinel was nerfed due to noobs, that's it really. They didn't try to adjust him at all, they simply said fuck it we're gonna hit Sentinel, bitch.

4. Mainly, I agree with your analysis and you responded in an intelligent way. I KNOW all of these things like business decisions. I don't even mind X-factor, it's just in context of what was being said, X-factor isn't being used smartly. It's being used as a crutch and that's where low level people who refuse to level up fail.

Real Edit: I should rephrase before I get lit on fire. Sentinel was nerfed due to clamoring of "over powered" even by pros before someone mentions it.

 

[Karsticles]

X factor to negate chip is fine, and this coming from a dorm player who curses whenever someone activates it. Chip damage in this game is insane, and for low health characters it's completely nuts sometimes. You're still running down their xfactor timer while they're in blockstun, no reason to punish them anymore for using it.

If they used X-Factor at full screen without already possessing an offensive use, they deserve all the punishment that can be given to them.

You know what's really crazy for low health characters? Getting comboed. Maybe X-Factor should negate combos, too. This logic just does not make sense. Characters are balanced by risk and reward. Most chip damage is not free - it's a calculated risk you make. All it takes is one missed Dark Hole or Purification, and Dormammu is gone against a competent player, even at full-screen against most. Have you ever noticed that most competitive Dormammu players don't use those moves all that much? They usually focus on his teleport mix-ups, because it's just too risky to throw out moves that take a half-second to start up, and a full second to complete against a competent opponent.

X-Factor arbitrarily removes the offensive potential of a large portion of the cast. I would even go so far as to claim Capcom only added it because they said "woah!" to level 3 X-Factor chip damage, were too lazy to balance it, added chip damage negation for "balance", and called it a day.

On one hand, yeah, X-factor negating chip damage does favour rushdown characters, but if it didn't, then it would encourage keepaway playstyles even more, and with the right character setup, the last character of anyone fighting a keepaway team might as well not exist as X-factor + chip damage would undoubtedly kill them without them being able to do anything.

I wish keepaway were so simple; I am honestly unbothered by someone activating X-Factor at the start of the match to negate chip to get in. That's not an issue at all. What irritates me is when I just have Dormammu left, my opponent and I both activate level 3 X-Factor, and the situation is horribly against me just because most of the benefits I get from level 3 X-Factor are entirely negates by my opponent's usage.

X-23 becomes a fearless warrior in my face, and the best I can do is block or hope she makes a mistake. It's fine to have differences and imbalances, but no one would think it were fine if there were a "disarm" system in this game: push a button at any time, and if your opponent happens to wield a weapon, they can't use it anymore. That would not fly, and it's not any different with X-Factor negating chip damage.

Now, along with the previous idea that X-Factor be a "groove" selection, I think it would be fine to, say break X-Factor into its various buffs, such as chip damage negation, damage boosting, speed boosting, health regeneration, etc. and when you choose X-Factor, you have to choose which of these buffs you get via your choice of button input. Then my opponent at least has to give something up for that fearless offense, instead of getting the whole package while I get a half-eaten sandwich. Maybe, right as you press X-Factor, you can continue to hold one of the inputs, and that determines which buff you get.

 

[Ferrio]

If they used X-Factor at full screen without already possessing an offensive use, they deserve all the punishment that can be given to them.

You know what's really crazy for low health characters? Getting comboed. Maybe X-Factor should negate combos, too. This logic just does not make sense. Characters are balanced by risk and reward. Most chip damage is not free - it's a calculated risk you make. All it takes is one missed Dark Hole or Purification, and Dormammu is gone against a competent player, even at full-screen against most. Have you ever noticed that most competitive Dormammu players don't use those moves all that much? They usually focus on his teleport mix-ups, because it's just too risky to throw out moves that take a half-second to start up, and a full second to complete against a competent opponent.

X-Factor arbitrarily removes the offensive potential of a large portion of the cast. I would even go so far as to claim Capcom only added it because they said "woah!" to level 3 X-Factor chip damage, were too lazy to balance it, added chip damage negation for "balance", and called it a day.

I really think you're being too biased being a dorm player, and really reaching with the combo/chip damage comparison. If you were going to make that change you'd have to make it so xfactor doesn't affect chip damage at all (negating and increasing damage).

 

[hitsugi]

Of all things, the negation of chip damage with xfactor on shouldn't even be considered part of the problem. The length and speed / damage mods on L3 is a little over the top and I think that's the primary concern being voiced.

 

[Threi]

Who ever gets the first hit wins. It's in neither of their favor.

There's the thing...its a lot easier for Ammy to get a hit on Sent than vice versa.

 

[Karsticles]

I really think you're being too biased being a dorm player, and really reaching with the combo/chip damage comparison. If you were going to make that change you'd have to make it so xfactor doesn't affect chip damage at all (negating and increasing damage).

I don't think it's a bias to not want the character you play to be specifically fucked over by a game mechanic. Believe me, I would be 100% fine with X-Factor not increasing chip damage. Having eaten 5 level 3 X-Factored Ice Storms as Hsien-ko (or however many it took before I was chipped out), I think it's a pretty silly system. I also think it's silly that Dormammu can chip out an incoming character with meter and level 3 X-Factor, and they have no defense against it as they watch 70%+ (100% for Dark Phoenix) of their life disappear with no recourse at all, because their own X-Factor can't be used until they land, and I'm not going to let that happen.

It's dumb. Not just for Dormammu and me, but for every character and everyone. It's bad balancing.

 

[Ferrio]

I don't think it's a bias to not want the character you play to be specifically fucked over by a game mechanic. Believe me, I would be 100% fine with X-Factor not increasing chip damage. Having eaten 5 level 3 X-Factored Ice Storms as Hsien-ko (or however many it took before I was chipped out), I think it's a pretty silly system. I also think it's silly that Dormammu can chip out an incoming character with meter and level 3 X-Factor, and they have no defense against it as they watch 70%+ (100% for Dark Phoenix) of their life disappear with no recourse at all, because their own X-Factor can't be used until they land, and I'm not going to let that happen.

It's dumb. Not just for Dormammu and me, but for every character and everyone. It's bad balancing.

Really the best solution would be just shorten the time on xfactor, since that seems to be the crux of why it sucks. It could still negate chip damage, but if it was only for say 10 seconds no matter the lvl, then it wouldn't be bad at all. They'd have to choose between using it to negate damage, or using it during a combo/setup to dish out some of their own.

 

[Karsticles]

Really the best solution would be just shorten the time on xfactor. It could still negate chip damage, but if it was only for say 10 seconds, then it wouldn't be bad at all. They'd have to choose between using it to negate damage, or using it during a combo/setup to dish out some of their own.

While I would love a shortened X-Factor time (or any number of changes - a lot of people here have made great suggestions), it still would not change the X-Factor vs. X-Factor situation that irks me. Level 3 X-Factors combined virtues are just flat-out ridiculous, but alone, I am usually pretty adept at just running away with Dormammu. A combination of Flame Carpet, Mass Change M, Superjumping, and Flight keep me pretty safe if my opponent uses X-Factor unwisely.

Edit: Which brings another topic to mind: it has become common knowledge that the best way to handle X-Factor is to just run away for a bit. Is that healthy for the game? Is that interesting and fun?

 

[LakeEarth]

2) Maybe DHCing into, but not out of. Chaotic Flame might DHC from pretty much everything, but DHCing out of Chaotic Flame is something only a small portion of the cast can do effectively. On the other hand, it might be more difficult to DHC into Shuma-Gorath's Hyper Mystic Smash, but it's very easy to DHC out of it. You really have to take it on a case-by-case basis. Some characters just fit together in this regard, and others don't. I haven't noticed any particular hypers that can both DHC into and DHC out of everything very easily.

Multi-hit Haggar body press in the corner! My favorite way to DHC to victory.

 

[Prototype-03]

All it takes is one missed Dark Hole or Purification, and Dormammu is gone against a competent player, even at full-screen against most. Have you ever noticed that most competitive Dormammu players don't use those moves all that much? They usually focus on his teleport mix-ups, because it's just too risky to throw out moves that take a half-second to start up, and a full second to complete against a competent opponent.

Dormammu isn't a real keepaway character. I mean he can be used as such and it's good to make people force themselves to rush at you (ie: Taskmaster). At full screen, dark hole and purification works really well and his flame super is one of the best level 1 supers in the game, but if you think about it, he has a lot of tools to be a rushdown character.

The teleport, the flame carpet, his triangle dash, and his OP light attacks makes him a great rushdown. And why wouldn't he? His simple combos do a lot of damage.

 

[Ferrio]

Edit: Which brings another topic to mind: it has become common knowledge that the best way to handle X-Factor is to just run away for a bit. Is that healthy for the game? Is that interesting and fun?

You play one of the best zoning characters and you're questioning the merits of keep away?

 

[Mit-]

Just to clarify for everyone, there are no changes introduced in the recent patch other than the Sent health nerf, Akuma tatsu infinite removal, Spencer loop removal, Haggar/Spencer DHC glitch removal (on all but two characters), matchmaking improvements, and preparing the game for event mode.

Everything else is the same. Dormammu's j.M has always done 70,000 damage, Sentinel's st.M has always done 100,000 damage, so on and so forth. Every other tweak people thought they were noticing were things that were changed after the player's guide was finalized, and were actually in the first retail version of the game.

 

[sixteen-bit]

Just to clarify for everyone, there are no changes introduced in the recent patch other than the Sent health nerf, Akuma tatsu infinite removal, Spencer loop removal, Haggar/Spencer DHC glitch removal (on all but two characters), matchmaking improvements, and preparing the game for event mode.

Everything else is the same. Dormammu's j.M has always done 70,000 damage, Sentinel's st.M has always done 100,000 damage, so on and so forth. Every other tweak people thought there were noticing were things that were changed after the player's guide was finalized, and were actually in the first retail version of the game.

Chris' grenade launcher was always projectile invulnerable?

 

[Mit-]

Chris' grenade launcher was always projectile invulnerable?

Never heard that one, and therefore didn't check it.

I've got the PS3 version. If you have the Xbox version and want to make sure, unplug your hard drive and boot the game up and try it. Chances are it's the same as it was before, just like everything else except Sent's health.

 

[Ferrio]

Chris' grenade launcher was always projectile invulnerable?

Mox checked it (believe it was him) and yes it was before.

 

[dankir]

There's the thing...its a lot easier for Ammy to get a hit on Sent than vice versa.

Damn straight, her solar flare counter is sick against jumping frying pan and jumping H.

Plus the fact you can actually hold it out there without it ending on it's own is even better.

Just to clarify for everyone, there are no changes introduced in the recent patch other than the Sent health nerf, Akuma tatsu infinite removal, Spencer loop removal, Haggar/Spencer DHC glitch removal (on all but two characters), matchmaking improvements, and preparing the game for event mode.

Everything else is the same. Dormammu's j.M has always done 70,000 damage, Sentinel's st.M has always done 100,000 damage, so on and so forth. Every other tweak people thought there were noticing were things that were changed after the player's guide was finalized, and were actually in the first retail version of the game.

Didn't Ammy's Okami shuffle get nerfed too?

 

[Mit-]

Didn't Ammy's Okami shuffle get nerfed too?

As far as damage, Amazing Ampharos confirms here http://shoryuken.com/f340/adjustment-patch-changes-thread-269183/index2.html that it's the same, as well as all her other moves and every other move in the game.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

Now, along with the previous idea that X-Factor be a "groove" selection, I think it would be fine to, say break X-Factor into its various buffs, such as chip damage negation, damage boosting, speed boosting, health regeneration, etc. and when you choose X-Factor, you have to choose which of these buffs you get via your choice of button input. Then my opponent at least has to give something up for that fearless offense, instead of getting the whole package while I get a half-eaten sandwich. Maybe, right as you press X-Factor, you can continue to hold one of the inputs, and that determines which buff you get.

This sounds like it could work really well if the selection is made through button inputs and not pre-fight.

Some of those ideas Parallax Scroll are pretty out there, but there is a simple mode beginners can use for their inputs in this game. Maybe they could tack your x-factor atuo activate onto that but I'm in the mindset that the game doing anything without you hitting a button is wrong and that this is a very bad idea for even new players to have created for them.

Say you were trying to do a move and you ended up x factor canceled due to this? I don't think it would help people.

Yeah, maybe it wouldn't work. I'd rather toss the idea out there for discussion than not mention it at all. Plus, I want to make sure the interests of casual players aren't ignored in this discussion.

Really the best solution would be just shorten the time on xfactor, since that seems to be the crux of why it sucks. It could still negate chip damage, but if it was only for say 10 seconds no matter the lvl, then it wouldn't be bad at all. They'd have to choose between using it to negate damage, or using it during a combo/setup to dish out some of their own.

10 seconds for all levels sounds reasonable. Though I think there should still be a power/speed increase between levels 1-3, so there's still incentive to save it for your last guy. Then a player still has to choose between early x-factor to finish off a character, or late x-factor for level 3.

 

[shaowebb]

Now, different kinds of x-factor? That might be interesting.
S+L+M: speed boost
S+L+H: regeneration
S+M+H: damage boost

or something like that..

That...that actually sounds pretty cool. Select which you want and its gone, but say you want em all?

How about if you want em all you mash all buttons and you get it...but you blow through your Xfactor FASTER.

This could work.

 

[Threi]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NldQqkoulww

i said gatDAMN

 

[DR2K]

There's the thing...its a lot easier for Ammy to get a hit on Sent than vice versa.

There's also more room for error in an Ammy combo than a Sentinel one.

 

["God's Beard!"]

If we're being honest-

High tier:
Magneto
Storm
Trish
Dante
Thor
Dormammu
MODOK
Akuma
Zero

low tier:
Wesker
Sentinel
Haggar
C.Viper
Chun Li
Tron
Joe
Hsien Ko

 

[Ferrio]

If we're being honest-

High tier:
Magneto
Storm
Trish
Dante
Thor
Dormammu
MODOK
Akuma
Zero

low tier:
Wesker
Sentinel
Haggar
C.Viper
Chun Li
Tron
Joe
Hsien Ko

Er what? You're kidding around on some of these right?

 

[MThanded]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NldQqkoulww

i said gatDAMN

 

["God's Beard!"]

I put characters that have good answers to most situations and work well in teams on the top, and gimmick characters on the bottom.

If you want to beat Wesker, just jump. C.Viper has some of the worst team chemistry in the game. People don't know how fast and safe and damaging Thor is. Et cetera.

 

[TheSeks]

IMO, I think only X-factor level 3/1 character left needs to be toned down. It's a bit bullshit to watch some matches have someone getting wailed on reach one character left, pop X-factor and then proceed to own the enemy team.

"BUT YOU CAN X-FACTOR YOURSELF!"

Yes, but they have a longer X-factor. So you have 10/20 seconds to deal with chip+speed+boosted damage while they knock some of your characters out.

There needs to be a less "that's bullshit!" factor to X-factor (no pun intended) than it being a "newbie friendly" bit for comebacks/defenses. If you're being wailed on and they have the character advantage, they should lose one-maybe two (if you're good at defending and then attacking) characters to even the game/tip the balance back to anyones game.

 

[Ferrio]

I put characters that have good answers to most situations and work well in teams on the top, and gimmick characters on the bottom.

If you want to beat Wesker, just jump. C.Viper has some of the worst team chemistry in the game. People don't know how fast and safe and damaging Thor is. Et cetera.

Uh, still think you're list is way off. No way thor is high tier at all. C.viper is definitely not low, she's execution heavy so we haven't seen people really utilize her well until recently. I really don't know wesker that well, but I seriously doubt he's low tier. No way tron is low tier, her assist alone takes her out not to mention she's pretty damaging and builds meter like crazy.

 

[kirblar]

Who ever gets the first hit wins. It's in neither of their favor.

You have seen an Ammy play keep-away vs Sent, right? Rushdown isn't what breaks the matchup heavily in Ammy's favor.

 

["God's Beard!"]

Uh, still think you're list is way off. No way thor is high tier at all.

What if he could do charging star in 3 directions on the ground and air, then link it into 570k damage combos for no meter that ended on easy resets that led into another 500k damage, then spend 1 bar and kill any character? What if his beam had more active frames than iron man's, had higher priority than sentinel drones and was plus on block? What if he had a ground bounce assist with a bigger hit box and more active frames than Akuma's tatsu? What if he had an invincible level 1 grab hyper? What if he could cancel his block strings into an amazing command throw? What if, on top of all that, he had the highest health in the game? Because he does.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

IMO, I think only X-factor level 3/1 character left needs to be toned down. It's a bit bullshit to watch some matches have someone getting wailed on reach one character left, pop X-factor and then proceed to own the enemy team.

"BUT YOU CAN X-FACTOR YOURSELF!"

Yes, but they have a longer X-factor. So you have 10/20 seconds to deal with chip+speed+boosted damage while they knock some of your characters out.

There needs to be a less "that's bullshit!" factor to X-factor (no pun intended) than it being a "newbie friendly" bit for comebacks/defenses. If you're being wailed on and they have the character advantage, they should lose one-maybe two (if you're good at defending and then attacking) characters to even the game/tip the balance back to anyones game.

How about every time one of your guys dies to a level 3 x-factor, the next character comes in with like a mini x-factor for free.

 

[Ferrio]

What if he could do charging star in 3 directions on the ground and air, then link it into 570k damage combos for no meter that ended on easy resets that led into another 500k damage, then spend 1 bar and kill any character? What if his beam had more active frames than iron man's, had higher priority than sentinel drones and was plus on block? What if he had a ground bounce assist with a bigger hit box and more active frames than Akuma's tatsu? What if he had an invincible level 1 grab hyper? What if he could cancel his block strings into an amazing command throw? What if, on top of all that, he had the highest health in the game? Because he does.

Doesn't mean shit cause his mobility isn't great and normals are pretty piss poor. I'm not arguing that he sucks, but he's not top tier. If you're going to tout a high hp character with high damage and resets with good command throws then you should be talking about shehulk.

 

[Procarbine]

What if he could do charging star in 3 directions on the ground and air, then link it into 570k damage combos for no meter that ended on easy resets that led into another 500k damage, then spend 1 bar and kill any character? What if his beam had more active frames than iron man's, had higher priority than sentinel drones and was plus on block? What if he had a ground bounce assist with a bigger hit box and more active frames than Akuma's tatsu? What if he had an invincible level 1 grab hyper? What if he could cancel his block strings into an amazing command throw? What if, on top of all that, he had the highest health in the game? Because he does.

I really want to pick up thor, we should play some time so you can show me what it looks like.

 

[JeTmAn81]

What if he could do charging star in 3 directions on the ground and air, then link it into 570k damage combos for no meter that ended on easy resets that led into another 500k damage, then spend 1 bar and kill any character? What if his beam had more active frames than iron man's, had higher priority than sentinel drones and was plus on block? What if he had a ground bounce assist with a bigger hit box and more active frames than Akuma's tatsu? What if he had an invincible level 1 grab hyper? What if he could cancel his block strings into an amazing command throw? What if, on top of all that, he had the highest health in the game? Because he does.

If Thor's really as great as you think he is, don't you think he would've made more appearances in high-level matches by now? It's not like his inclusion in the game somehow escaped the notice of the pros. Thor seems pretty slow and even awkward, and that beam that you love has quite a bit of startup on it, even in its fastest version. Don't get me wrong, I love him as a character and I'm glad he's in the game, but he's yet to be proven as any kind of real threat.

 

[QisTopTier]

If we're being honest-

High tier:
Magneto
Storm
Trish
Dante
Thor
Dormammu
MODOK
Akuma
Zero

low tier:
Wesker
Sentinel
Haggar
C.Viper
Chun Li
Tron
Joe
Hsien Ko

/Facepalmhard

I'll just put it this way, godsbeard just cause you can't use her to her full potential doesn't mean c.viper sucks, same goes for wesker, sent is upper mid tier at the least in good hands, the only person that really belongs there on that list is haggar, also lack of hulk and ryu is wtf. Also your high tier list is missing taskmaster, who is fucking stupid.

 

[Kai Dracon]

Random strategy question:

What are people's favored thing to try when a fight starts against a rushdown wolverine or zero who uses pre-fight movement to inch up into your face? Just stick with block then push back w/ advancing guard? Any particular assists you like in this situation?

 

[Ferrio]

If Thor's really as great as you think he is, don't you think he would've made more appearances in high-level matches by now? It's not like his inclusion in the game somehow escaped the notice of the pros. Thor seems pretty slow and even awkward, and that beam that you love has quite a bit of startup on it, even in its fastest version. Don't get me wrong, I love him as a character and I'm glad he's in the game, but he's yet to be proven as any kind of real threat.

Also so far his resets seem pretty limited. He's got the one after an aerial might strike which you can see coming from a mile away. The one you can follow up with after an OTG mighty smash seems more plausable since you can have an assist come out to help you.. but not has good as she hulk who has more/better options.

 

["God's Beard!"]

If Thor's really as great as you think he is, don't you think he would've made more appearances in high-level matches by now? It's not like his inclusion in the game somehow escaped the notice of the pros. Thor seems pretty slow and even awkward, and that beam that you love has quite a bit of startup on it, even in its fastest version. Don't get me wrong, I love him as a character and I'm glad he's in the game, but he's yet to be proven as any kind of real threat.

I honestly think people just drop him before they realize what he can do. There's a lot of very good characters that are easy to use and very apparent in how to attack. Thor is a defensive character, you need to be aware of all his options to use him. Same reason there aren't many MODOK's, even if most people think he's very good.

Doesn't mean shit cause his mobility isn't great and normals are pretty piss poor. I'm not arguing that he sucks, but he's not top tier. If you're going to tout a high hp character with high damage and resets with good command throws then you should be talking about shehulk.

His mobility is better than people think because he can cancel his airdash recovery or air dash into falcon kicks. His normals are great because they do a ton of damage and can be kara canceled into his throw or whatever you want if you see them blocking. His mobility and command throws are better than she hulk's. Also, my definition of high tier is top third, not necessarily a class above the rest of the cast.

Also so far his resets seem pretty limited. He's got the one after an aerial might strike which you can see coming from a mile away. The one you can follow up with after an OTG mighty smash seems more plausable since you can have an assist come out to help you.. but not has good as she hulk who has more/better options.

You can reset whenever you want by kara canceling into mighty hurricane.

 

[darkblade77]

Not really arguing in favor of Thor here(if he has a legit offense that blows people up I'd love to see it in action though), but I think jury is still out on tiering in general.

There is plenty of room for capable people to suddenly start showing other characters off. Nobody seemed to know who Spencer was until two weeks ago, and C.Viper's raw potential hadn't been shown off in a tournament setting until this week. Desk is cranking out or publicizing crazy glitches pretty much every week, too.

 

["God's Beard!"]

On point, C.Viper is the best character in the game. I just don't think she works well in a team.