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Marvel vs Capcom 3: Fate of Two Worlds |OT2| Sold exclusively at Dollar Tree
- Thread starter Teknopathetic
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Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
When you play against Phoenix, you're no longer playing MvC3. You're playing one of those old-school RPG boss fights where the boss does absolutely nothing, then it starts counting down and you're like "oh shi- I gotta kill him before he gets to 0 or I'm gonna die." Only instead of counting down from 5, in MvC3 you count up from 1.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Prototype-03 said:What? The best use of fly right now is for combo extension.
Or running away indefinitely from Wesker. I think some of you guys get locked into mindsets too easily. People have barely touched matchup information when it comes to anyone not Sentinel or Phoenix.
QisTopTier said:Cool, taskmasters bnb does 930k with two supers and no DHC
The bnb I made exists only to do max damage for no meter. There's really no reason to use it with hypers. If I wanted to waste 4 bars, I'd do a shorter combo and do a lot more damage.
shaowebb said:Shoutouts to God's Beard for putting in that Thor technology. The stuff you said sounds positively incredible and by this time next year I'm betting we may just see a lot of Thor players due to stuff like what you found.
I'd love to friend you on 360 so I could get bodied by Thor and witness this majesty of combo lab work as you narrate.
My handle is Dynasty Penguin.
Could you show me these things you've worked on. I'd like to learn Thor because his is my absolute worst character and I hate that given how hype I was for him pre-launch.
Sure, I'm Gods_beard on PSN. No mic though, I can't figure out how to get one to work. I think I have a bluetooth around here. Honestly, I don't like posting a lot of Thor technology because people don't know why they get hit and I like it that way, but there's no helping it. I doubt it'll stay hidden till evo for the most part.
Balancing a fighting game from millions of data points covering every single matchup in the game at various levels of skill? Yeah, makes sense to me. It's a very statistically sound way of doing it. It's be odd if Capcom at least didn't harvest the results.Sixfortyfive said:Balancing a fighter around online play makes sense to you?
Note that only Sentinel got hit, by the way. He must really have been a statistical outlier to be singled out like that. Sure, a few infinites were removed, too, but I wouldn't be surprised if Capcom just considered that bugfixes.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
That data isn't very meaningful when high-execution characters are nearly impossible to play effectively due to lag and dropped inputs. Or when you can't even get your super-jumps in reliably. There's so much of a random factor added to online play that it's borderline meaningless.McNum said:Balancing a fighting game from millions of data points covering every single matchup in the game at various levels of skill? Yeah, makes sense to me. It's a very statistically sound way of doing it. It's be odd if Capcom at least didn't harvest the results.
Professor Beef
Banned
Wait, there's a stream? Which one is everyone watching?
Professor Beef said:Wait, there's a stream? Which one is everyone watching?
http://www.justin.tv/offcast
Data is data. It's true that you have to filter it through "it's online play", which does skew towards the easy to use characters. But it's still millions of data points.Sixfortyfive said:That data isn't very meaningful when high-execution characters are nearly impossible to play effectively due to lag and dropped inputs. Or when you can't even get your super-jumps in reliably. There's so much of a random factor added to online play that it's borderline meaningless.
Again, only Sentinel was singled out. I'm sure we can all point out some characters that do pretty well online, but only Sentinel got hit. That could mean he was a really bad statistical outlier. For instance if Sentinel had a 70% win rate online, the nerfbat was coming his way. And if the data used for the patch only covers the first week, maybe the second, then Sentinel's win rate probably was a pretty big outlier. Sent was pretty dominant the first week or two.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
A dog, a cat, and a tentacle monster.
To bust out an old (but valid) analogy, does this mean that Iceman deserved to be nerfed in MvC2 as well?McNum said:And if the data used for the patch only covers the first week, maybe the second, then Sentinel's win rate probably was a pretty big outlier. Sent was pretty dominant the first week or two.
Professor Beef
Banned
Thank you!h3ro said:
God's Beard said:Or running away indefinitely from Wesker.
Wesker can't super jump?!
Sure, I'm Gods_beard on PSN. No mic though, I can't figure out how to get one to work. I think I have a bluetooth around here. Honestly, I don't like posting a lot of Thor technology because people don't know why they get hit and I like it that way, but there's no helping it. I doubt it'll stay hidden till evo for the most part.
Sent a invite, I'd like to see your thor.
McNum said:Data is data.
That doesn't really address his objection.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Valle with the CapAm t-shirt.
It does if you read the entire post. It's data, but it of course needs to be examined with an online play angle. However, as I repeatedly noted: Only Sentinel got hit. Even if your data is skewed, you can still spot major statistical outliers. I wouldn't be surprised if Capcom has a noise tolerance for this data, but Sentinel simply won too much and got caught in the datamining filter.Mumei said:That doesn't really address his objection.
Considering Iceman, I don't know about him. Didn't play MvC2, but I suspect he was good early on, before MvC2 was torn apart and became what it is now.
"God's Beard!"
Member
I think modok can fly higher than super jump range but I might be crazy. Also, warning to anyone who fights me, I haven't put nearly any time into MODOK or Mags compared to Thor, so it's barely a working team, even if conceptually it's sound.Ferrio said:Wesker can't super jump?!
Sent a invite, I'd like to see your thor.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
First time I've seen that Deadpool loop in a match.
"God's Beard!"
Member
If Deadpool's assist hit low, he'd be one of the top tier characters for sure.
Alright this is how I feel about the nerf.
It is a bit knee jerk. We're only a month in and daily we are discovering new things. Someone on the stream earlier said this is too sudden especially when there are too many anti-Sent strategies out there. However, the fact that Sentinel on a base level is overpowered should be undisputed. The raw amount of potential he has from assists to his utilization of X-Factor is completely out of whack with the rest of the cast, and in the leagues of Dark Phoenix at X-Factor level 3, which is ridiculous when damage output of a gimmickly overpowered character is matched with a regularly overpowered character. At a base level, regardless of the person utilizing the character, Sentinel does not line up in terms of balance with the rest of the cast.
At high levels of play, he is a beast because one slip from the opponent can be crushing like no other character can punish, but he does have his bad matchups. At low levels of play, Sentinel has a very small learning curve, and can easily be a huge factor in who wins a match due to the options and matchups he has advantage over. Once again, the pros of using him far outweigh the cons despite how vocal people are about how many anti-sent strats they have, he is still a problem and applies a ton of pressure no matter what skill level.
Now, in Capcoms supposed attempt to make him fairer, they nerf his health and keep his high damage output, mobility and options. Now, players complain that they have to "adapt" to the health nerf. All the health nerf contributes is the need to play smarter, and cautiously with a character who already has hyper armor and high damage output. If you are a dedicated and supposedly skilled player, of any game, you should have the ability to adapt dynamically to what is introduced with others playing the game AND any said patches that the developer introduces, if not, you are a whiny bitch and shouldn't even be playing if you feel that the competitive environment should revolve around you and not vice versa.
I would have preferred say, 1 mill health and an X-Factor tweak for Sentinel to be more in-line with the rest of the cast, but this was not the case. People are blowing this nerf way out of proportion, Sentinel is still useful and deadly. And because Sentinel is still competitive no matter how much you whine that you no longer have free wins and have to work a tiny bit harder for them, he is still a viable character, and in my opinion now AS viable as everyone else. Still viable? Still competitive. Influences smarter play? Better for competitive environment.
That said I AM uncomfortable with the thought of continuous updates and teetering of balance in a game where the longevity brings creativity and teeters the balance in itself. People call out a new character each day for high tier, and likewise denounce characters easily. This duality is what scares me, and is probably what many others are trying to express as well, and could make the game highly unstable and a turn off in the long run if players are made to consistently adapt to two different changing environments. But, one minor patch a month in does not mean this will be the case, and such should not be assumed. This is my only doubt in the whole patching process, and you'd be ignorant to assume Capcom isn't aware of this possibility either. Most likely they have already discussed how hands on and hands off they will be, presumably being hands on when it comes to blatantly broken things such as glitches, Sentinel and infinites, and hands off on combo possibilities and more of that stuff that doesn't hurt the endgame.
In my opinion, the principle of Capcom trying to control and actively influence what is and is not competitive is the real issue, not whether Sentinel deserved the nerf or not, which I still think he very, very well did.
tl;dr: Nerf isn't a tradgedy, I think it's for the best, however I question how liberal Capcom will be with patches.
It is a bit knee jerk. We're only a month in and daily we are discovering new things. Someone on the stream earlier said this is too sudden especially when there are too many anti-Sent strategies out there. However, the fact that Sentinel on a base level is overpowered should be undisputed. The raw amount of potential he has from assists to his utilization of X-Factor is completely out of whack with the rest of the cast, and in the leagues of Dark Phoenix at X-Factor level 3, which is ridiculous when damage output of a gimmickly overpowered character is matched with a regularly overpowered character. At a base level, regardless of the person utilizing the character, Sentinel does not line up in terms of balance with the rest of the cast.
At high levels of play, he is a beast because one slip from the opponent can be crushing like no other character can punish, but he does have his bad matchups. At low levels of play, Sentinel has a very small learning curve, and can easily be a huge factor in who wins a match due to the options and matchups he has advantage over. Once again, the pros of using him far outweigh the cons despite how vocal people are about how many anti-sent strats they have, he is still a problem and applies a ton of pressure no matter what skill level.
Now, in Capcoms supposed attempt to make him fairer, they nerf his health and keep his high damage output, mobility and options. Now, players complain that they have to "adapt" to the health nerf. All the health nerf contributes is the need to play smarter, and cautiously with a character who already has hyper armor and high damage output. If you are a dedicated and supposedly skilled player, of any game, you should have the ability to adapt dynamically to what is introduced with others playing the game AND any said patches that the developer introduces, if not, you are a whiny bitch and shouldn't even be playing if you feel that the competitive environment should revolve around you and not vice versa.
I would have preferred say, 1 mill health and an X-Factor tweak for Sentinel to be more in-line with the rest of the cast, but this was not the case. People are blowing this nerf way out of proportion, Sentinel is still useful and deadly. And because Sentinel is still competitive no matter how much you whine that you no longer have free wins and have to work a tiny bit harder for them, he is still a viable character, and in my opinion now AS viable as everyone else. Still viable? Still competitive. Influences smarter play? Better for competitive environment.
That said I AM uncomfortable with the thought of continuous updates and teetering of balance in a game where the longevity brings creativity and teeters the balance in itself. People call out a new character each day for high tier, and likewise denounce characters easily. This duality is what scares me, and is probably what many others are trying to express as well, and could make the game highly unstable and a turn off in the long run if players are made to consistently adapt to two different changing environments. But, one minor patch a month in does not mean this will be the case, and such should not be assumed. This is my only doubt in the whole patching process, and you'd be ignorant to assume Capcom isn't aware of this possibility either. Most likely they have already discussed how hands on and hands off they will be, presumably being hands on when it comes to blatantly broken things such as glitches, Sentinel and infinites, and hands off on combo possibilities and more of that stuff that doesn't hurt the endgame.
In my opinion, the principle of Capcom trying to control and actively influence what is and is not competitive is the real issue, not whether Sentinel deserved the nerf or not, which I still think he very, very well did.
tl;dr: Nerf isn't a tradgedy, I think it's for the best, however I question how liberal Capcom will be with patches.
God's Beard said:If Deadpool's assist hit low, he'd be one of the top tier characters for sure.
Up for some games now?
"God's Beard!"
Member
Sorry, I don't have time to play tonight.
McNum said:It does if you read the entire post. It's data, but it of course needs to be examined with an online play angle. However, as I repeatedly noted: Only Sentinel got hit. Even if your data is skewed, you can still spot major statistical outliers. I wouldn't be surprised if Capcom has a noise tolerance for this data, but Sentinel simply won too much and got caught in the datamining filter.
Considering Iceman, I don't know about him. Didn't play MvC2, but I suspect he was good early on, before MvC2 was torn apart and became what it is now.
I read your whole post the first time, and I didn't see how it addresses it. He said that the data wasn't meaningful because online play means that high-execution characters are nearly impossible to play effectively. Your rebuttal that "data is data" and that they can "filter it through 'it's online play'" doesn't really address that.
Can you explain what you mean that makes online play a good basis for patching the game?
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Poor Chen always choking in the end.
"God's Beard!"
Member
Lots of Thor troling in the stream chat.
nilbog21 said:i blame justin wong for this terrible nerf :|
Because of the godlike Sent that he's been winning tourneys with, right?
I think Capcom listened to the wrong part of the install base for this game. The online casuals that created such an outcry at launch that probably have either traded the game in already or aren't going to playing the game long term.
It would be an easy fix if they were able to have unlimited patches, they could push through a fix for this "fix" easily if it weren't for MS's horrible patching policy.
I wonder if we'll see anything patched for a while or if they wait until after Evo for any further balance changes.
marathonfool
Member
Why is Wesker a high health character again? Teleporting rushdown character with high health. Capcom makes no sense.
"God's Beard!"
Member
cause he has no anti air gamemarathonfool said:Why is Wesker a high health character again? Teleporting rushdown character with high health. Capcom makes no sense.
Next patch he gets an airdash because he is "low tier."marathonfool said:Why is Wesker a high health character again? Teleporting rushdown character with high health. Capcom makes no sense.
His S is a very good antiair.God's Beard said:cause he has no anti air game
"God's Beard!"
Member
Aint gonna slap the 'DOK, though.Threi said:His S is a very good antiair.
Lost Fragment
Obsessed with 4chan
McNum said:It does if you read the entire post. It's data, but it of course needs to be examined with an online play angle. However, as I repeatedly noted: Only Sentinel got hit. Even if your data is skewed, you can still spot major statistical outliers. I wouldn't be surprised if Capcom has a noise tolerance for this data, but Sentinel simply won too much and got caught in the datamining filter.
Considering Iceman, I don't know about him. Didn't play MvC2, but I suspect he was good early on, before MvC2 was torn apart and became what it is now.
Considering how much Capcom didn't/doesn't care about the online for this game, I kinda doubt that their methods for mining data of this kind are very thorough. And considering how inaccurate the in-game statistics are, I don't have much faith that Capcom's own stats are completely accurate. I think you're giving them too much credit.
Either way, balancing a fighting game this early is a bad idea. Even if the change to Sent is a good thing in the end, it's still a bad idea to do it a month out of the gate. Even if Capcom has a ridiculously thorough and accurate cache of data from the past month of online play, 99.9% of the people they got that data from don't have a very thorough understanding of the game, and most of them aren't even going to still be playing the game 2 months down the line. And that's when the affects of Sent's changes will really become apparent. This isn't a loketest.
Sixfortyfive
He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Justin is so nice.
Starbase Arcade is live:
http://www.justin.tv/iplaywinner
As for general streams, the easiest way to know who's streaming is to follow the channel, and to have a general idea of when they stream.
Monday
Option-Select Mixup Mondays ~8PM EDT
Tuesday
The Break Weekly ~9PM EDT
Wednesday
Xanbats ~8PM
Wednesday Night Fights ~8PM PDT (11 EDT) (Offcast for the regular stream, Level|Up for season finals. Not sure if Level|Up is still using their Ustream channel.)
Starbase Arcade ~9PM PDT (12 EDT)
Guard Crush ~5PM EDT (MvC3 and AE. Returning next week, assuming it's bi-weekly.)
Thursday
Option-Select Thinking Thursdays ~8PM EDT
Also, this Sunday is the next Battlefield Arcadia.
http://www.justin.tv/iplaywinner
As for general streams, the easiest way to know who's streaming is to follow the channel, and to have a general idea of when they stream.
Monday
Option-Select Mixup Mondays ~8PM EDT
Tuesday
The Break Weekly ~9PM EDT
Wednesday
Xanbats ~8PM
Wednesday Night Fights ~8PM PDT (11 EDT) (Offcast for the regular stream, Level|Up for season finals. Not sure if Level|Up is still using their Ustream channel.)
Starbase Arcade ~9PM PDT (12 EDT)
Guard Crush ~5PM EDT (MvC3 and AE. Returning next week, assuming it's bi-weekly.)
Thursday
Option-Select Thinking Thursdays ~8PM EDT
Also, this Sunday is the next Battlefield Arcadia.
DryEyeRelief
Member
Lost Fragment said:Considering how much Capcom didn't/doesn't care about the online for this game, I kinda doubt that their methods for mining data of this kind are very thorough. And considering how inaccurate the in-game statistics are, I don't have much faith that Capcom's own stats are completely accurate. I think you're giving them too much credit.
Either way, balancing a fighting game this early is a bad idea. Even if the change to Sent is a good thing in the end, it's still a bad idea to do it a month out of the gate. Even if Capcom has a ridiculously thorough and accurate cache of data from the past month of online play, 99.9% of the people they got that data from don't have a very thorough understanding of the game, and most of them aren't even going to still be playing the game 2 months down the line. And that's when the affects of Sent's changes will really become apparent. This isn't a loketest.
I guess we'll see. If Sentinel becomes extinct I guess it'll be the reference everyone can use when it comes to knee jerk balance updates.
Professor Beef
Banned
Damn, hilarious Phoenix play by cl0ckw0rk!
"God's Beard!"
Member
I recorded some thor stuff yesterday but I can't find a good way to convert 3gp to something I can edit in imageready.
Lost Fragment said:Considering how much Capcom didn't/doesn't care about the online for this game, I kinda doubt that their methods for mining data of this kind are very thorough. And considering how inaccurate the in-game statistics are, I don't have much faith that Capcom's own stats are completely accurate. I think you're giving them too much credit.
Either way, balancing a fighting game this early is a bad idea. Even if the change to Sent is a good thing in the end, it's still a bad idea to do it a month out of the gate. Even if Capcom has a ridiculously thorough and accurate cache of data from the past month of online play, 99.9% of the people they got that data from don't have a very thorough understanding of the game, and most of them aren't even going to still be playing the game 2 months down the line. And that's when the affects of Sent's changes will really become apparent. This isn't a loketest.
Surprised it took that long to have the inaccurate data get mentioned. Even if capcom was following online records, this is the same game that typically is telling players the wrong win loss record, so it'd be all fucked up.
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