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[Enk]

They keep mentioning that the random freezes are from the patch but I've been getting those brief pauses in my non-online matches before the patch hit.

Edit: I guess I should also note that I am also playing on a 360 like they are. Don't they usually play on a PS3 in other WNF?

 

[Semblance]

Clockw0rk's Doom is really something else. Fun to watch.

 

[Professor Beef]

Such a great job by Codylicious.

 

[Oldschoolgamer]

Wesker with Lvl 3 T-Virus is so dope. Gunshots do so much damage.

 

[Darkman M]

LMAO at the wesker gunshot loop.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

troll mirror

 

[Sixfortyfive]

troll mirror

is the best mirror.

 

[jman2050]

Justin laughs at Phoenix.

 

[Face it Tiger..]

Floe got trolled so bad, I feel for the guy.

 

[Aaron]

Destroy a guy with his own team. Ultimate troll victory.

 

[DarkoMaledictus]

Damn, my Zero, Ammy, Taskmaster seems to have perfect balance! Perfect for rushing and perfect for laming it out ! Its like having both guile and dudley all at once !

 

[Arozay]

lmao @ Felicia lvl3 loop

 

[Sixfortyfive]

CAT SPIKE LOOP YES

EDIT: <3 <3 <3 James Chen Felicia trolling

 

[USD]

Haha, UltraDavid had enough of the chenanigans.

 

[Professor Beef]

Oh god, that loop is ridiculous. One of my friends is gonna have a field day with that knowledge.

 

[Dartastic]

I wanted to run Team BasedGod (Phoenix, Ammy, Thor) before the game came out, but I dropped it because I was NOT happy with Thor. I should try maybe putting him on point with Ammy assist, and seeing how that goes. I was running with Ammy on point and... Sent was just working way better, but now that he's nerfed I'd love to see some Thor action and give him another chance... Are you on 360 Gods Beard?

 

[Chozo]

I know this won't surprise anyone, but...

Holy God the ranked matchmaking is some serious bullshit.

I've ping-ponged back and forth between fighter and 9th repeatedly today because every time I manage to drag myself up past fighter the game just repeatedly matches me with 5th-7th lords with 20+ game winstreaks. I'm not a very good fighting game player (and these trial by fire moments are admittedly helping me learn relatively quickly), but it's ridiculous to just sit there as I get thrown to the wolves and OCVed by 5th lords using mixups I've hardly seen and don't know how to counter.

And then when I do manage to beat someone 2+ ranks above me? The exp bar hardly fucking moves any farther than if I had just beaten Billy Scrub Mc9thranger.

!*#&^&**(!&^!(

(someone on Neogaf please take pity on me, my PSN is Mauler5150)

Anyway, as someone who runs Sentinel, the nerf is...eh. I miss the extra HP sometimes, but he still can annihilate people with level 3 X-factor. Health nerf definitely forces (well, me at least) to keep the momentum going so he doesn't get rushed down and picked apart, though.

 

[Mit-]

Ugh, tried out Spidey. Learned some pretty good combos in training mode. Thought I had a handle on controlling him. Took him online. Terrible. All I do is air dash into overheads (web zip is useless when there are beams and drones and projectiles filling the screen, unless you do it from the air, which is just about equally useless), and then I hardly nail easy versions of his combos even due to the lag. He's one execution-heavy mother****er, and if you don't do stuff like aerial.H > web swing M/H fast enough, you aren't getting the hit, and therefore aren't getting the super.

Couldn't really figure out any good assists that work for him either, aside from the obvious Wesker OTG to give him another air combo (which all but ensures he can't combo into his super due to hitstun deterioration).

I really, really don't think Spider-Man is good. I'll stick to playing him in local friendlies.


Though after seeing that newish Spidey combo video, I might pick him up again if I ever decide to learn Deadpool.

 

[Toski]

Ugh, tried out Spidey. Learned some pretty good combos in training mode. Thought I had a handle on controlling him. Took him online. Terrible. All I do is air dash into overheads (web zip is useless when there are beams and drones and projectiles filling the screen, unless you do it from the air, which is just about equally useless), and then I hardly nail easy versions of his combos even due to the lag. He's one execution-heavy mother****er, and if you don't do stuff like aerial.H > web swing M/H fast enough, you aren't getting the hit, and therefore aren't getting the super.

Couldn't really figure out any good assists that work for him either, aside from the obvious Wesker OTG to give him another air combo (which all but ensures he can't combo into his super due to hitstun deterioration).

I really, really don't think Spider-Man is good. I'll stick to playing him in local friendlies.


Though after seeing that newish Spidey combo video, I might pick him up again if I ever decide to learn Deadpool.

They seemed to have kept his "hit & run" archetype from the old MSH days where it was viable play style due to how the games were designed. Now with the addition of 3 vs 3 and assists, he needs to be almost completely redesigned going forward for him to be viable. By himself one on one he can hold his own, but he lacks his own OTG and with his lackluster assists, slightly below average health, combined with the new RDP motion for web swing (WTH Capcom?), he is mid if not lower mid tier.

 

[McNum]

I read your whole post the first time, and I didn't see how it addresses it. He said that the data wasn't meaningful because online play means that high-execution characters are nearly impossible to play effectively. Your rebuttal that "data is data" and that they can "filter it through 'it's online play'" doesn't really address that.

Can you explain what you mean that makes online play a good basis for patching the game?

Volume.

If Capcom does have a matchup tracking system set up, they're likely to have tens of millions match results piled up. And if everyone but Sentinel were within acceptable range of a 50% win rate after millions of fights, well, you saw what happened. I mean, I see a lot of people wanting balance off of tournament results, which is fine, tournaments are good at showing the edge cases, but there has been three major tournaments since launch. That's not enough data, as many people have already pointed out.

There's also the notion that MvC3 is played far more online than offline. Why shouldn't it be balanced for online play, then? Granted, the netcode and matchmaking could be better, but that's another fight. Also the cynical response would be that if Capcom alienates the casual online player, said casual online player won't buy DLC. So they might cater a bit extra for those.

But my thoughts here are easily tested: If a character begins to dominate online like Sent did in the early weeks, expect a nerf after 4-5 weeks. Then again, who would that be? Dante? Phoenix? Magneto? I just don't see them performing well enough online with a general audience as Sentinel did. Sure Magneto's loop there is scary, but one network hiccup and it's dropped. Sent was easy mode among new players and for that he got hit with a nerf.

For the timing of the patch and it being too early, I'm not sure. I'd rather that they get as much of the balancing patches done as fast as possible so we can have a stable MvC3 when the dust settles.

Also, did I just miss a good Felicia? Aww, I wanted to see what she was capable of.

 

[Karsticles]

You play one of the best zoning characters and you're questioning the merits of keep away?

Nope, I'm not questioning the merits of keepaway. Keepaway is about the epic struggle between two characters; one's attempt to create space, the other's to get in and wreck. When someone activates level 3 X-Factor, I just see players spamming superjump for 20 seconds. It's like when someone decides to run down the clock - it's not particularly interesting to watch or do, but now it's in the middle of the match. This is another reason I would rather X-Factor just be a cancel.

Just to clarify for everyone, there are no changes introduced in the recent patch other than the Sent health nerf, Akuma tatsu infinite removal, Spencer loop removal, Haggar/Spencer DHC glitch removal (on all but two characters), matchmaking improvements, and preparing the game for event mode.

Haha, really, improved matchmaking? It seemed worse than ever last night...

Now, different kinds of x-factor? That might be interesting.
S+L+M: speed boost
S+L+H: regeneration
S+M+H: damage boost

or something like that..

This sounds perfect to me, with the regeneration option also gaining the chip negation; otherwise I doubt it would see use.

IMO, I think only X-factor level 3/1 character left needs to be toned down. It's a bit bullshit to watch some matches have someone getting wailed on reach one character left, pop X-factor and then proceed to own the enemy team.

"BUT YOU CAN X-FACTOR YOURSELF!"

Yes, but they have a longer X-factor. So you have 10/20 seconds to deal with chip+speed+boosted damage while they knock some of your characters out.

There needs to be a less "that's bullshit!" factor to X-factor (no pun intended) than it being a "newbie friendly" bit for comebacks/defenses. If you're being wailed on and they have the character advantage, they should lose one-maybe two (if you're good at defending and then attacking) characters to even the game/tip the balance back to anyones game.

Agreed entirely.

What are people's favored thing to try when a fight starts against a rushdown wolverine or zero who uses pre-fight movement to inch up into your face? Just stick with block then push back w/ advancing guard? Any particular assists you like in this situation?

I design all of my teams to deal with this somehow. Either my team can negate the early rush somehow (Tron Bonne assist while jumping and blocking at the start, or start with a character with a double jump, like Sentinel), or I just try to beat them at the rush.

Everyone is hating on X-Factor, but they are forgetting an important thing...Capcom feels modern fighting games need a comeback aspect.

Capcom also feels that we should be happy with input-delay netcode. Their opinion is irrelevant.

gustaff staff has stupid invul frames at the start and the flame comes out almost instantly. Her only period where she's vulnerable is at the end of the flame for a VERY brief period. Her assist is probably top 3 (after Haggar and Hsien-Ko's pendulum with gold armor)

She's not invulnerable, there's just a projectile hitbox that absorbs frontal attacks. If you do a crouching attack when she comes in, you'll hit her during the flames. The fire has medium priority, so only hypers will beat it out reliably.

Which thor can't do. Can dorm? I forget... think I tried testing it out once... forgot my conclusion.

Dormammu can fly-extend combos during level 2 and 3 X-Factor only in my testing. If he can do it from level 1 X-Factor, my execution is just not fast enough to make it happen, and I even set my L attack to turbox10 to make sure it comes out as fast as possible for testing.

Are most people here rocking a stick, or is pad more common along hardcore but non-tourney player?

I have a stick. Just modified it with a bat-top, much happier.

Data is data. It's true that you have to filter it through "it's online play", which does skew towards the easy to use characters. But it's still millions of data points.

Shitty data is shitty data. You can have all the data in the world, but if it's from an illegitimate source, it doesn't mean anything.

 

[McNum]

Shitty data is shitty data. You can have all the data in the world, but if it's from an illegitimate source, it doesn't mean anything.

No, data is data. Then you analyze it afterwards, but you don't dismiss anything before that. You, of course, account for the data being gathered off online play and from all skill levels in your analysis, but that doesn't make the data invalid. It just creates some variables you have to account for, which isn't that hard to find out.

And for the record, millions of matchup results, even if it's online, is one powerful set of data when it comes to balancing a fighting game. It easily points out where you might want to take a closer look, both in characters winning too much and losing too much.

 

[TheSeks]

No, data is data.

No. Shitty data is shitty. I shouldn't even need to tell you why online play data in a FIGHTING GAME is a shitty idea. It should be pretty goddamn obvious.

 

[McNum]

No. Shitty data is shitty. I shouldn't even need to tell you why online play data in a FIGHTING GAME is a shitty idea. It should be pretty goddamn obvious.

No, it's not obvious. You account for variables and noise in the data during analysis, in this case the fact that it's online, but you most certainly should not toss out the majority of the available data in advance. You'll only get wrong conclusions from that.

Now we can argue about the analysis and results themselves, if you really want to, but the data stands. Data always stands. If the data seems wrong, find out why, but never dismiss it. Ever. This is all really basic statistics and science. Data is the most precious thing you can have in an analysis, and millions of data points? Awesome. Even if you need to consider several variables with them, it's still awesome to have that much data. If Capcom doesn't have something like this going, I'll be disappointed in them.

 

[DryEyeRelief]

For the timing of the patch and it being too early, I'm not sure. I'd rather that they get as much of the balancing patches done as fast as possible so we can have a stable MvC3 when the dust settles.

The people who are saying that it's too early are concerned with different ideas of stability than you.

It also must be argued that, in order to properly change a fighting game for the better, you need actual time to discern what it is that needs to be changed. It isn't as simple as "X character needs to be weaker, Y character needs to be stronger." If a developer makes changes too rapidly, they will not make a more balanced game, but just the same game with a different character hierarchy.

 

[Karsticles]

No, it's not obvious. You account for variables and noise in the data during analysis, in this case the fact that it's online, but you most certainly should not toss out the majority of the available data in advance. You'll only get wrong conclusions from that.

Now we can argue about the analysis and results themselves, if you really want to, but the data stands. Data always stands. If the data seems wrong, find out why, but never dismiss it. Ever. This is all really basic statistics and science. Data is the most precious thing you can have in an analysis, and millions of data points? Awesome. Even if you need to consider several variables with them, it's still awesome to have that much data. If Capcom doesn't have something like this going, I'll be disappointed in them.

I must have missed how important improperly gathered data is for reaching conclusions at some point while earning my chemistry degree.

 

[vg260]

They seemed to have kept his "hit & run" archetype from the old MSH days where it was viable play style due to how the games were designed. Now with the addition of 3 vs 3 and assists, he needs to be almost completely redesigned going forward for him to be viable. By himself one on one he can hold his own, but he lacks his own OTG and with his lackluster assists, slightly below average health, combined with the new RDP motion for web swing (WTH Capcom?), he is mid if not lower mid tier.

Yeah, kinda sad they made him so execution heavy, and he seems lacking in tools. Even just changing the web throw to a RDP motion and the swing a QCB would be a huge help. Heck Taskmaster has the same move and it's just a command normal (iirc) I'll still play him because he's my fav comic character by far, but I'd like to see him get a little more help.

 

[SolarPowered]

Online data months and months into the game from hundreds of thousands of players>tourney data

This was a little too soon in my opinion. The fact that Sentinel got hit with a nerf stick is either a calculated decision on Capcom's part that could not be made before the game launched or a quick reaction to the complaints of a pool of players that is far larger than the hardcore scene. This should be obvious to most of us by now.

This should already be established. The only thing that needs to be agreed on is that it does set a bad precedent for those of us who want to see the game analyzed down to the very last frame before major changes are made.

Now it's just a matter of deciding whether or not that nerf was justified at all. They may have struck quickly, but it's now a question of whether or not it should have been done. It doesn't even matter anymore if we want to look at this from an angle that makes Capcom look like they're appeasing to casuals. No one here in good conscience can say that any other character in this game has had as large a stranglehold on scrubs as Sentinel did. That fact should not even be debatable in my opinion. If we follow the logic and assume that his nerf came because of fan feedback then we can also assume that it would take a disproportionate response to nerf even more characters. I think we can all safely agree that no other character in this game can draw that kind of response.

The discussion should probably stay focused on Capcom itself and why they did it. If they did do it because of fan feedback it should not matter as much because characters like Sentinel only come along once or twice in any game. If Capcom did do it because of fan feedback then it should be pretty obvious that they agree with them on some level. I think this should draw the attention squarely back to capcom and not the faceless players who have always complained about the subject.

All of this ire towards the casual players is not very productive in my opinion and it won't stop the whining(justified or not) anway...

Fake edit: This is just something that I typed up in response to all of the talk about Sentinel and online data from regular players. It's a little late for this argument in my opinion, but I'll just post it since the discussion may come back to the subject.

If we are done with the nerf talk and patches then this post is a mistake I guess.

 

[McNum]

I must have missed how important improperly gathered data is for reaching conclusions at some point while earning my chemistry degree.

You are again dismissing online data outright. Improperly collected data is a valid concern, of course, but you should find that out quite fast when beginning to analyze it. But the issue with online data isn't that it's improperly collected. It's all quantitative data, it's easy to collect. The problem with online data is accuracy.

I'm sure that there's plenty of inaccuracies in the online data, it'd surprise me if there wasn't really, and I'd never suggest to rely solely on the online results for fine tuning. The data you get from online simply isn't accurate enough for this. But for highlighting obvious flaws that you should examine further? Now that you can do, even with the data being inaccurate within a certain tolerance, of course.

I don't expect to see any more Sentinel caliber singe adjustments any time soon. Not unless some other character begins tearing up online. Calling this change a knee-jerk nerf isn't completely fair, but it's probably not far from the truth either. A flatout HP nerf does seem a bit like an emergency change to me. Something that could be done quickly and be packed in with the next content patch to correct a statistical anomaly seen in the online data. I wouldn't be surprised if Sentinel got revisited with a more fine tuning patch later, possibly with some tuning done to a lot of the other characters as well. But that takes much longer to do, both in analysis and testing.

But yeah, what's done is done. I just wanted to show another way Capcom could have reached the conclusion to slash Sentinel's HP like that. I wouldn't mind continuing the discussion about data points, but it's getting a bit off topic here now.

And honestly? I think the reason is "all of the above" in the end. The fan outcry against Sentinel must have reached Capcom, and if they had the data it'd be easy to look up and see if anything was unusual about Sentinel's win rate, then decide what to do, if anything, about that. They chose the HP reduction. Agree or disagree, it's the way the game is now. Adapt and overcome. Isn't that the way of the Fighting Game, after all?

 

[Sir Garbageman]

Balancing a fighter around online play makes sense to you?

Ummmm, yes? Seeing as probably 99% of the current owners of the game will never go to a tourney, watch a stream or post on GAF?

 

[Axis]

anyone up to play a bit on the east coast? GT: vexco


my FL is full so just invite por favor!


i'm kinda ass since i've only just fucked around with it :/

 

[SolarPowered]

anyone up to play a bit on the east coast? GT: vexco


my FL is full so just invite por favor!


i'm kinda ass since i've only just fucked around with it :/

goddammit people only ask when I'm going to school...

 

[Dahbomb]

Magneto/Dante/Phoenix aren't going to dominate Online play.

They are too demanding on the player execution and skill wise, plus with the netcode and online conditions characters like these will not be seeing that high win ratios. Sentinel was the ultimate "online" character to use, even if you knew how to fight against him you could easily fuck up and he would punish you for the kill.

You know for a very tricky character, Wesker is surprisingly easy to play, packs a decent punch and has decent life. It's no wonder people are using him a lot online, I recently started using him and I am doing all sorts of fancy shit.

One thing I wanted to ask is, how do you combo after the Low gun shot from an OTG? I have seen people do it with the cr. M but I can never do it myself. If I do it too fast, he teleports back but if I do it late the guy gets up.

 

[Karsticles]

You are again dismissing online data outright. Improperly collected data is a valid concern, of course, but you should find that out quite fast when beginning to analyze it. But the issue with online data isn't that it's improperly collected. It's all quantitative data, it's easy to collect. The problem with online data is accuracy.

It's improperly collected for the purpose of evaluating the game's balance, because the online is so terrible that MvC3 is a different game altogether online. You're measuring an irrelevant metric for evaluating the actual game. That's why it's not useful. It should not be surprising at all that a heavy hitting character with high HP performs well compared to someone like C. Viper, who demands a lagless environment to really utilize her skillset. It's a completely different game. I don't even use the same tactics online and offline, because half of them don't work depending on the environment.

The only way this data would mean anything at all is if Capcom wanted to actually implement separate balance for online and offline; otherwise you're adjusting for one game while ignoring the other entirely. Offline, lagless play is what this game should be balanced around, because that's the real game.

This is beside the extremely important fact that, again, you cannot balance a game around mediocre players. It is simply not possible. If somehow this all remains beyond you still, consider our conversation concluded as of this post.

 

[rivals]

They keep mentioning that the random freezes are from the patch but I've been getting those brief pauses in my non-online matches before the patch hit.

Edit: I guess I should also note that I am also playing on a 360 like they are. Don't they usually play on a PS3 in other WNF?

This conversation seems to have slipped by but I'm pretty sure they were using 360s, at least the stream console was a 360. I haven't noticed any random freezing on PS3 but since the patch I've only done a few hours of training and no matches.

 

[Dahbomb]

DP LOL.

Also I hate how this game registers forward, QCF as a dragon punch motion. Like it gets stupidly difficult to do something that is by design supposed to be easy like Ryu's f+H, Hadouken, Shinku Hadouken. You always get the Shoryuken after the f+H Roundhouse.

I know in normal games I avoid using moves like these before a DP motion but for some of those Missions it gets really annoying. I heard people by pass this by just doing a half circle forward.

 

[LakeEarth]

One thing I wanted to ask is, how do you combo after the Low gun shot from an OTG? I have seen people do it with the cr. M but I can never do it myself. If I do it too fast, he teleports back but if I do it late the guy gets up.

Remember that hitstun deteriorates as the combo goes along. So you can't combo from the OTG unless the combo meter is ~4-5 hits. Even then its a tight window to land that c.mp.

 

[Alucrid]

Magneto/Dante/Phoenix aren't going to dominate Online play.

They are too demanding on the player execution and skill wise, plus with the netcode and online conditions characters like these will not be seeing that high win ratios. Sentinel was the ultimate "online" character to use, even if you knew how to fight against him you could easily fuck up and he would punish you for the kill.

You know for a very tricky character, Wesker is surprisingly easy to play, packs a decent punch and has decent life. It's no wonder people are using him a lot online, I recently started using him and I am doing all sorts of fancy shit.

One thing I wanted to ask is, how do you combo after the Low gun shot from an OTG? I have seen people do it with the cr. M but I can never do it myself. If I do it too fast, he teleports back but if I do it late the guy gets up.

I can never seem to do it either. Assist is the only other option.

 

[corrosivefrost]

Remember that hitstun deteriorates as the combo goes along. So you can't combo from the OTG unless the combo meter is ~4-5 hits. Even then its a tight window to land that c.mp.

Exactly. If you get too many hits, it won't work unless it's after a throw or some other kind of reset. If you want it to work mid-combo with high hitsun build up, then you must x-factor after the shot and then do whatever it is you wanted.

--

Random thought:
If the game wasn't out yet and was released in April, as originally planned, it's quite conceivable that the extra time in play test may have meant Sentinel shipped with 905k health.

If that happened, I wonder what people would be bitching about? Probably still XF3, I guess. :-k

 

[GuardianE]

Remember that hitstun deteriorates as the combo goes along. So you can't combo from the OTG unless the combo meter is ~4-5 hits. Even then its a tight window to land that c.mp.

Exactly right. By himself, Wesker's OTG has limited usefulness. I mean, there's no reason to ever NOT use it, but he can't combo off of it in most situations without an assist. The most practical scenario to start a combo from the OTG is off an airthrow.

EDIT: beaten in almost every way.

 

[Dahbomb]

Remember that hitstun deteriorates as the combo goes along. So you can't combo from the OTG unless the combo meter is ~4-5 hits. Even then its a tight window to land that c.mp.

AAAAh that explains it.

Yeah I have been trying to do this for the past 20 mins: L Teleport, cr.L, cr. M, st. H, QCF+M~L (wall bounce into teleport), st.M. st. H, S (usually I just go M into S), j.M, j.H, j.S, dash in Low Shot.

Combo works until the Low shot then I can't do anything after that unless I use Assist in which case I can only do launcher into S.

Checking some of my tournament vids that I saved up, people only OTG raw off the Gun when they do something like cr.L, cr. M, QCF+L dash in Gun Shot, cr. M, cr. H, S into air combo. Personally I am fine with my BnB with Wesker, I have decided that in this game it's better to have solid combos that work in almost all cases than having combos that you have a low chance of hitting but are really insane if you do.

 

[corrosivefrost]

Exactly right. By himself, Wesker's OTG has limited usefulness. I mean, there's no reason to ever NOT use it, but he can't combo off of it in most situations without an assist. The easiest scenario to start a combo from the OTG is off an airthrow.

EDIT: beaten in almost every way.

Exactly again. This is why in a lot of Wesker combo vids, unless they pop xfactor and continue into a combo or hyper, you'll see a lot of combos *end* with the gunshot. It's like "I'll take the extra damage cause you're just lying on the ground"...

If it weren't for that, everything Wesker did would be an infinite, pretty much. ^_^

In some cases, if you use low shot with an assist like jam session, I think it will left them up and allow you to follow up with a small combo for some additional damage.

 

[McNum]

It's improperly collected for the purpose of evaluating the game's balance, because the online is so terrible that MvC3 is a different game altogether online. You're measuring an irrelevant metric for evaluating the actual game. That's why it's not useful. It should not be surprising at all that a heavy hitting character with high HP performs well compared to someone like C. Viper, who demands a lagless environment to really utilize her skillset. It's a completely different game. I don't even use the same tactics online and offline, because half of them don't work depending on the environment.

The only way this data would mean anything at all is if Capcom wanted to actually implement separate balance for online and offline; otherwise you're adjusting for one game while ignoring the other entirely. Offline, lagless play is what this game should be balanced around, because that's the real game.

This is beside the extremely important fact that, again, you cannot balance a game around mediocre players. It is simply not possible. If somehow this all remains beyond you still, consider our conversation concluded as of this post.

The "real" game? So you are actually dismissing online outright? Despite there being played many more matches, to a factor of well over a thousand there? That's interesting, I suppose.

But Capcom cannot do that. They need a game that caters to both online and offline players, and in a pinch, offline can slide. Because Capcom wants people to keep playing online so they can sell DLC to them. And if Sentinel was scaring newbies away from online, then it sucks to be Sentinel. Turns out, he did, and it did.

Now I'm not arguing that balance should be online only. That'd be weird, as you want the edge cases that you only get from tournament-class players. Infinite loops, literal game breakers like the Zero glitch. That's what you go to these people for. But the game has to be, if not balanced, then at least seem "fair" at the newbie/intermediate level online. Or you lose them. And their DLC cash. Sentinel's changes was aimed there. People who walk away from the game in disgust over perceived balance problems don't buy DLC. People who feel that they are being listened to and that their main "fairness" issue has been dealt with do. You're not selling extra costumes to the tournament crowd, anyway, but the casual player? He'll buy them. If he hasn't given up on the game yet.

I'm not saying that it's a healthy situation for the game, because I don't think it is, but the reasoning is sound, in a somewhat twisted way. It works all too well for Call of Duty, for instance. It's also my least favorite thing about the current generation of consoles, but that's for a whole other topic.

 

[mr. puppy]

wow online is so much more bareable now, absolutely loving the sentinel nerf.

 

[Teknopathetic]

"Adapt and overcome. Isn't that the way of the Fighting Game, after all?"

"wow online is so much more bareable now, absolutely loving the sentinel nerf."


Apparently not.

 

[TheSeks]

Ummmm, yes? Seeing as probably 99% of the current owners of the game will never go to a tourney, watch a stream or post on GAF?

... Which is fucking stupid as you screw tournament players/offline players.

Online play: Lag tactics and abusing "good for online characters." Going by that play data, screwing with characters that work good with shitty netcode is HORRIBLE.

There's a reason online play should not be regarded as you "learning," go take your Hadoken spamming in lag to an offline match, anyone worth their time is going to jump over it and then beat the shit out of you. "BUT THAT WORKED ONLINE!" Because you have input delay/network delay to where fast reactions and combos that work offline only can't be done to punish you.

It's shitty data because of that. The matches MEAN NOTHING.

 

[Prototype-03]

The "real" game? So you are actually dismissing online outright? Despite there being played many more matches, to a factor of well over a thousand there? That's interesting, I suppose.

But Capcom cannot do that. They need a game that caters to both online and offline players, and in a pinch, offline can slide. Because Capcom wants people to keep playing online so they can sell DLC to them. And if Sentinel was scaring newbies away from online, then it sucks to be Sentinel. Turns out, he did, and it did.

Now I'm not arguing that balance should be online only. That'd be weird, as you want the edge cases that you only get from tournament-class players. Infinite loops, literal game breakers like the Zero glitch. That's what you go to these people for. But the game has to be, if not balanced, then at least seem "fair" at the newbie/intermediate level online. Or you lose them. And their DLC cash. Sentinel's changes was aimed there. People who walk away from the game in disgust over perceived balance problems don't buy DLC. People who feel that they are being listened to and that their main "fairness" issue has been dealt with do. You're not selling extra costumes to the tournament crowd, anyway, but the casual player? He'll buy them. If he hasn't given up on the game yet.

I'm not saying that it's a healthy situation for the game, because I don't think it is, but the reasoning is sound, in a somewhat twisted way. It works all too well for Call of Duty, for instance. It's also my least favorite thing about the current generation of consoles, but that's for a whole other topic.

So is it okay to have bad netcode? If they really cared about online players, pretty sure we'd have a better one right now.

 

[corrosivefrost]

Wow. I'm a bit stunned at how pissed off some of you are getting about a *theory* about why Sentinel was nerfed. What's the point in getting so worked up over a hypothetical situation?

Until someone, somewhere CONFIRMS that Sentinel was nerfed because casual online players cried out in unison or because the statistics gathered from online play data were skewed, everything being argued is entirely guesswork.

Essentially, people are getting their knickers twisted for nothing. At least until someone like Seth K is asked about how the nerf came about and gets a straight answer.

 

[Grifter]

this thread has been hating fun for a few days now, even despite the steady flow of sentinel tears.

 

[Prototype-03]

Wow. I'm a bit stunned at how pissed off some of you are getting about a *theory* about why Sentinel was nerfed. What's the point in getting so worked up over a hypothetical situation?

Until someone, somewhere CONFIRMS that Sentinel was nerfed because casual online players cried out in unison or because the statistics gathered from online play data were skewed, everything being argued is entirely guesswork.

Essentially, people are getting their knickers twisted for nothing. At least until someone like Seth K is asked about how the nerf came about and gets a straight answer.

No prob, the fix to the health reduction is to make sent Ammy sized. A tiny robot with less health makes a lot of sense. BUT KEEP HIS DAMAGE!