Support NeoGAF

[Karsticles]

God's Beard, another question for S-Kill:
MvC3 assists are far weaker than MvC2 assists, and as such, it was understandable for Dormammu's Purification assist to not have tracking like Blackheart's inferno did in MvC2. However, Strider Hiryu is being given an assist that not only tracks full-screen, but also causes a ground bounce on hit. Is it possible that Dormammu's Purification assist could be upgraded to have tracking?

 

[Parallax Scroll]

Getting "eaten alive by upon landing from your jumps" refers to a problem I had with Taskmaster for awhile. I'd jump in try some stuff and then get destroyed upon landing because they blocked it.
Sixfortyfive and his bunch pointed out that I was completely leaving my "landing strip" unprotected. What they meant was to try to use an assist to keep someone busy so that if my jump in attacks failed they would be stuck in block stun from the assist's attack and be less able to react to me and punish me if I failed to connect.

This is something I need to work on. Landing from jumps is usually when my Zero gets opened up. Also I gotta stop super jumping so much. It's been habit ever since COTA.

 

[smurfx]

parallax you play marvel on live or psn?

 

[shaowebb]

This is something I need to work on. Landing from jumps is usually when my Zero gets opened up. Also I gotta stop super jumping so much. It's been habit ever since COTA.

Yeah, when you super jump you can't summon an assist to cover your landing so I only tend to do it to stay above hypers or with my Ryu whose tatsu tends to keep him safe since its crosses up and redirects.

Holy shit, thanks for all of the advice guys

No problem. We were all new once and no one wants to keep losing without any clue why. If you're gonna be on later we could set up some matches and I can walk you through some of that and demonstrate some of it to. I can make you a non ranked lobby to play in to show it to you.

If you don't mind of course. Don't worry about how bad it looks either. No ones gonna mock it if you can't just suddenly do a Magneto Rom combo or a Dante super swag combo that uses all 41 moves in a row. I'd just like to see more people learn fighters is all.

 

[SolarPowered]

Don't get me wrong, I want Double Lariat to be nerfed like it was. I just want him to be a better point character so that nerf is justifiable. I'm not a fan of "assist tier" characters, especially when we have monsters like Dante, Magneto, and Wesker in the game.

I usually never see you approving of a nerf. Why do you want the lariat nerfed?

 

[Karsticles]

I usually never see you approving of a nerf. Why do you want the lariat nerfed?

I've always said that I want one of two things to happen with invincible assists:
1) We get a lot more of them so there are options.
2) They go away entirely.

I've always been equally happy with either. I think invincible assists remove a huge part of the game and ruin the pace of the game. Invincibility is NOT something that should be given lightly in this game. It's also good that Berserker Slash is losing its invincibility. This is especially important because right now, characters are too oriented toward being assists or viable point characters. Part of what justifies Tron and Haggar as being "assist characters" is these assists. I would much rather see them become viable on point, and see their assists nerfed, than the status quo.

 

[shaowebb]

I've always said that I want one of two things to happen with invincible assists:
1) We get a lot more of them so there are options.
2) They go away entirely.

I've always been equally happy with either. I think invincible assists remove a huge part of the game and ruin the pace of the game. Invincibility is NOT something that should be given lightly in this game. It's also good that Berserker Slash is losing its invincibility. This is especially important because right now, characters are too oriented toward being assists or viable point characters. Part of what justifies Tron and Haggar as being "assist characters" is these assists. I would much rather see them become viable on point, and see their assists nerfed, than the status quo.

I agree that we need to see Haggar become more viable on point, but as Sixfortyfive posted that lariat was vulnerable after the first few swings. Jump ins that blocked it who didn't get crossed up received a happy birthday for scouting it. Those who faked an approach and then air dashed past him got the same treatment.

I understand why they would do it if they wanted to buff him in other ways, but it already removed his health to do this and you couldn't abuse it too much without losing him. I'll approve of the nerf if he suddenly gets a tool that can put him in your face regularly because he could easily be over balanced if handled wrong with buffs.

For now though I got nothing in my future for Haggar except bottom tier. I'm looking into something that was posted about crouching dropkick maybe being an OTG now, but that still needs some kind of high priority jump in move to mean anything for Haggar.

 

[SolarPowered]

I've always said that I want one of two things to happen with invincible assists:
1) We get a lot more of them so there are options.
2) They go away entirely.

I've always been equally happy with either. I think invincible assists remove a huge part of the game and ruin the pace of the game. Invincibility is NOT something that should be given lightly in this game. It's also good that Berserker Slash is losing its invincibility. This is especially important because right now, characters are too oriented toward being assists or viable point characters. Part of what justifies Tron and Haggar as being "assist characters" is these assists. I would much rather see them become viable on point, and see their assists nerfed, than the status quo.

I can completely respect this. It is a favorable outcome compared to numerous assists of this type. Most matches will end in time out in this kind of situation...

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

The thing with Haggar is I think they gotta buff his point game if the assist is not going to be invincible. Plus he shouldn't take red health if its not going to be invincible.

In my experience, smart players with characters would can get under it punish it hard already, they bait it out, and you get happy birthday'd. Plus it was taking red health. You couldn't over use it, or you're getting snapped and are at a huge disadvantage.

I just hope they give him something on point, and not have it take red health, and not be out there so long, since it's not invincible anyways.

 

[Toxicplatypus]

Anyone see the new Cabeza de Fuego shirt for Dormammu (Courtesy of Yipes) from Broken Tier? Pretty cool.

Clicky

There better be a rocket raccoon shirt eventually....

 

[Karsticles]

I agree that we need to see Haggar become more viable on point, but as Sixfortyfive posted that lariat was vulnerable after the first few swings. Jump ins that blocked it who didn't get crossed up received a happy birthday for scouting it. Those who faked an approach and then air dashed past him got the same treatment.

You do me a favor and let me know how Dormammu can "fake an approach". Not every character can dash dance back and forth to bait things. Ground dashing with Dormammu in general is borderline suicide. Mostly though, it's about how the assist completely negates pressure in the game and is an easy way out of resets, and it pisses me off that people who use it force me to back off at the start of the match.

I understand why they would do it if they wanted to buff him in other ways, but it already removed his health to do this and you couldn't abuse it too much without losing him. I'll approve of the nerf if he suddenly gets a tool that can put him in your face regularly because he could easily be over balanced if handled wrong with buffs.

It's still invincible, just not before the active frames - it'll still be very good. Worth his health dropping? Eh, we'll see.

For now though I got nothing in my future for Haggar except bottom tier. I'm looking into something that was posted about crouching dropkick maybe being an OTG now, but that still needs some kind of high priority jump in move to mean anything for Haggar.

Don't be down, it's early. Seth said a lot of characters are getting new moves. I would be surprised if Haggar wasn't one of them. I think a pipe-throw that causes a wall bounce would be hilarious, as would a trash can throw that rolls along the ground with high durability (like 10), but is slow so it's easy to dodge and more about a way for him to cover himself.

I can completely respect this. It is a favorable outcome compared to numerous assists of this type. Most matches will end in time out in this kind of situation...

Yeah, the game just isn't built for these. I mean, as much as I love him, can you imagine if we had Captain Commando in this game? The game would suddenly turn very stupid for a lot of matchups.

The thing with Haggar is I think they gotta buff his point game if the assist is not going to be invincible. Plus he shouldn't take red health if its not going to be invincible.

It's still invincible, just not before it starts. Likely, it's only vulnerable for 1 frame, like Magneto's Force Field assist. That's right, Magneto has a "get off me" assist with only 1 vulnerable frame, but no one ever talks about it...

In my experience, smart players with characters would can get under it punish it hard already, they bait it out, and you get happy birthday'd. Plus it was taking red health. You couldn't over use it, or you're getting snapped and are at a huge disadvantage.

In my experience, smart players don't just stand there while they get baited constantly. They cover the assist as soon as you back off. It's not a free in unless you play a beam character, and of the beam characters, the only one really able to pull this off reliably and kill Haggar with an XFCed double beam is Akuma because he can cancel his dashes, and maybe Sentinel.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

Karsticles, I understand what you are saying, but it seems you are just looking at it from Dorm's perspective.

Lariat assist doesn't own Ammy, Wolvie, Mags, Morrigan, PHX, Wesker. I don't think Wesker's resets are bothered much by the assist. It seem when they are popped into the air, if Wesker gets the air throw, the lariat doesn't hit, and if he waits to the ground, he can get under it (I might be wrong).

Either or, if it's not going to be like it is now, it's all good. I just don't want it to take red life, hehe. Or make it so you can hit him directly on top of the head, but the arms are the semi invincible part, kinda like how it is in SSF4.

And to just confirm, only lariet assist is getting the nerf, or is it getting it too when he is on point?

 

[Karsticles]

Karsticles, I understand what you are saying, but it seems you are just looking at it from Dorm's perspective.

Yes, I am. So what? Not everyone wants to put a Wolverine or some other "mash c.L while you duck under Double Lariat with your small hitbox" character on their team. My main team for a long time was Sentinel/Dormammu/Doom. Guess what none of those characters can do?

Lariat assist doesn't own Ammy, Wolvie, Mags, Morrigan, PHX, Wesker. I don't think Wesker's resets are bothered much by the assist. It seem when they are popped into the air, if Wesker gets the air throw, the lariat doesn't hit, and if he waits to the ground, he can get under it (I might be wrong).

You're right, Double Lariat doesn't do much against the short list of top tier characters with absolutely no bad matchups. That's not much of an argument.

Wesker's resets absolutely are bothered by the assist, because his resets are based on the presumption that he has two options:
1) j.L into air juggle series.
2) Air throw into Samurai Edge, etc.

If you mash Double Lariat as soon as you recover, it removes the threat from 1). Therefore, you just have to tech the throw (mash b.H, basically) and you survive the reset.

Either or, if it's not going to be like it is now, it's all good. I just don't want it to take red life, hehe. Or make it so you can hit him directly on top of the head, but the arms are the semi invincible part, kinda like how it is in SSF4.

I'm fine with him not losing red life with this nerf, personally.

And to just confirm, only lariet assist is getting the nerf, or is it getting it too when he is on point?

Lariat assist behaved differently from every other assist aside from Tron Bonne's Gustaff Fire in the game. It just lost that special behavior - Double Lariat on point is unchanged as far as is known.

 

[Dahbomb]

As a Wesker player, Haggar assist really bothers my reset game. Karsts hit the nail on the head, with Haggar you can just option select f+H and assist button and just mash them. You cannot got for resets with a Haggar assists on the opponent team.

It's also bothersome for the other top tier characters especially for Wolverine who has to be more careful with Dive Kicks and B Slash.

I don't know what the argument here is but Haggar assist is/was a GOD TIER assist in vanilla MVC3. There is no question about it, it dictated the pace of the match much like Tron assist did but lead to way higher damage upon connection.

Haggar and Tron assists getting nerfed is an indirect BUFF to Hsien Ko as she is now the only true invincible assist in the game (unless more ones pop up from the newer characters). But you need to set it up to get the benefits so I guess that's alright.

 

["God's Beard!"]

I wish every character in the game had Dr.Doom's dashes. So godlike ^_^

Especially down-forward, upforward, down-forward. Instant tridash that's faster than anything else I know in the game.

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

I don't think the argument was if it is/was a godly assist. It is. I guess the argument was (or mine), is that a bad thing? Yes, he changes the pace of a match, but is that so bad? I play Gief in SF, Sim changes the pace of a match for me. Plus when I play other people, it changes their pace. Depending on character match ups, pace changes all the time. It's all good. Pace change is alright. I play Sent. When I play against Ammy or Dante, I have to play different that against Dorm or She-Hulk

Especially concerning the trade offs you had to make if you picked him, and if you get snapped in.

But whatevers. We shall look to the future!! I am okay with the Lariat nerf.

I hope he can throw trash cans or pipes. I hope he doesn't take red life away for doing lariat. Give him armor or something. Maybe make the lariat a hold button move. Just push the buttons to do one rotation of swinging. Holding them down make him spin 2 more times.

I am a grappler fighting game player mostly, so I will always play those types. I will still use Haggar. It was nice that he had that assist. But if he doesn't, I hoep they flesh him out more so he has more options.

And yes, I would like if more assists with invincibility at certain points. so like Ryu DP would have the invincible frames right when he comes out on the ground, but not all the way up in the air.

 

[Dahbomb]

First of all, I still think it's a very good assist in UMVC3 you just need to be more careful about using it.

Secondly, I am more in favor of characters being more viable as point characters rather than just being assist characters. That needs to die with MVC2. What also needs to die is characters having most of the time only one useful assist when they have 3 to choose from. This will probably not get fixed in UMVC3 but I have always wanted a MVC game where characters had all 3 assists be good (like Doom).

Haggar deserves buffs in his point game irregardless of him having a very good assist or not.

 

[Karsticles]

I don't think the argument was if it is/was a godly assist. It is. I guess the argument was (or mine), is that a bad thing? Yes, he changes the pace of a match, but is that so bad? I play Gief in SF, Sim changes the pace of a match for me. Plus when I play other people, it changes their pace. Depending on character match ups, pace changes all the time. It's all good. Pace change is alright. I play Sent. When I play against Ammy or Dante, I have to play different that against Dorm or She-Hulk

There's a difference between games and characters though. Haggar assist makes the game slow and boring, and Marvel is all about constant high-speed insanity. It's not such a bad thing when a game like Street Fighter, which is very slow and poke-based, has a character that forces you to take it slow. For Marvel, it ruins the pace entirely.

Especially concerning the trade offs you had to make if you picked him, and if you get snapped in.

Do you think Haggar fans like him being assist tier though? It's not fun wanting to main an "assist" character.

I hope he can throw trash cans or pipes. I hope he doesn't take red life away for doing lariat. Give him armor or something. Maybe make the lariat a hold button move. Just push the buttons to do one rotation of swinging. Holding them down make him spin 2 more times.

Those would be nice changes.

And yes, I would like if more assists with invincibility at certain points. so like Ryu DP would have the invincible frames right when he comes out on the ground, but not all the way up in the air.

The DP has enough priority that it's not too big of a deal for it to be not invincible. I've never seen it stuffed when used at the proper angle, at least.

Secondly, I am more in favor of characters being more viable as point characters rather than just being assist characters. That needs to die with MVC2. What also needs to die is characters having most of the time only one useful assist when they have 3 to choose from. This will probably not get fixed in UMVC3 but I have always wanted a MVC game where characters had all 3 assists be good (like Doom).

Damn straight. Get rid of Dormammu's Liberation and Purification assists, and give him Flame Carpet and Dark Matter. Alternatively, make Purification tracking...*drool*

 

[ThatCrazyGuy]

I would love love Haggar to be more than an "assist" character. I still have some MVC2 in me, so part of me was okay with it.

I am totally fine if his lariat assist just had good enough priority for the type of move it was (a get off me move), and he was more fleshed out as a point character, because I like using him.

 

[smurfx]

i would gladly accept a nerf to his lariat if he was made a good character. haggar is one of my fav characters of all time.

 

[shaowebb]

I am absolutely loving all you guys for coming out of the woodwork to support the fact that Haggar needs some kind of new move or properties to improve his approach.

If he threw anything at a person I would go nuts seeing him with a projectile. As much as I'd enjoy him with a wall bounce projectile I'll be the first to say that this would be taking improving his point game too far.

You give me the ability to start a combo with his damage output with a wallbounce and I already know how to reset it via OTG for him and finish with an air grab. The old version of this was nearly 500K, but add in a bounce and any air x-factor and he would suddenly have the easiest assist free character kill in the game. Id spam that setup like crazy.

An approach is cool by me, but if I got a wall bounce property on a Haggar projectile I guarantee you that if someone as low tier as me could swag it then he would destroy people in the hands of pro players. Also Keits would constantly be playing erect and no one wants to see him get that excited for one of his combos. lol

 

[LakeEarth]

I do like the idea of the trashcan throwing. I imagine it as a slow moving projectile rolling on the ground, allowing Haggar to move forward. That would be really helpful.

I don't think air xfactor is going to change anything for him.

 

[kirblar]

They said prior to the game's release that they didn't want "Assist Tier" characters, and nerfing Tron/Haggar's assists is certainly in line with that philosophy. Look at Timothy's (I hope I'm remembering the right name) team, where he rotates Haggar into point in certain scenarios, or Kerahime's Tron-on-point team from UFGT7.

 

[shaowebb]

Changed my mind. Give Haggar that projectile that causes wall bounce. I think I like the idea of taking him all the way to the top

Me an Keits can 80's freeze frame high five in between combos off it and give Haggar his own troll tier.

Feels good man.

 

[Neki]

They said prior to the game's release that they didn't want "Assist Tier" characters, and nerfing Tron/Haggar's assists is certainly in line with that philosophy. Look at Timothy's (I hope I'm remembering the right name) team, where he rotates Haggar into point in certain scenarios, or Kerahime's Tron-on-point team from UFGT7.

Yeah, that's certainly true, but then why would they nerf Tron's main option as a point character for getting in?

 

[kirblar]

Yeah, that's certainly true, but then why would they nerf Tron's main option as a point character for getting in?

Yeah, I don't understand that one.

 

[Neki]

The only reasoning I can see is they want to reduce the long combos that do moderate damage, or they want people to actually do different attacks instead of spamming one attack. Hence the Magneto BnB nerfs (combos are much shorter midscreen) and the possible Dante nerfs on some of his moves.

 

[QisTopTier]

Honestly, I hope they nerf all the one button wonder characters. With that said, I want them to make their other attacks have proper uses outside of combos.

 

[shaowebb]

Honestly, I hope they nerf all the one button wonder characters. With that said, I want them to make their other attacks have proper uses outside of combos.

Ammy and Hulk on Blast.

Hulk's gonna be nuts though. If you thought he was bad before with standing H and jumping S leading to a dead character you should know it now has a full 3 hits of super armor.

 

[Parallax Scroll]

all haggar needs is a dive kick, a teleport, and flight mode.

 

[QisTopTier]

all haggar needs is a dive kick, a teleport, and flight mode.

and the ability to throw sharks

 

[Parallax Scroll]

homing sharks

 

[Professor Beef]

homing sharks

And they should transfer health from the opponent to you.

 

[shaowebb]

all haggar needs is a dive kick, a teleport, and flight mode.

and the ability to throw sharks

homing sharks

And they should transfer health from the opponent to you.

 

[Karsticles]

The only reasoning I can see is they want to reduce the long combos that do moderate damage, or they want people to actually do different attacks instead of spamming one attack. Hence the Magneto BnB nerfs (combos are much shorter midscreen) and the possible Dante nerfs on some of his moves.

I actually wonder if part of it is them wanting to kill off flowcharting in general. For example, what if the goal with Dante isn't to make us figure out new combos, but instead have him with several options that lead into various combos in different situations? Along with the Swiss Cheese! move, maybe they want to affect how we operate?

Just a half-thought-out hypothesis.

 

[mr. puppy]

so who is everyone rooting for at evo?

 

[Anth0ny]

so who is everyone rooting for at evo?

not phoenix

 

[Professor Beef]

so who is everyone rooting for at evo?

AMERICA

 

[enzo_gt]

so who is everyone rooting for at evo?

Chris G, MarlinPie, MastaCJ if he makes it, Yipes, Ryan Hunter, Combofiend, Nerdjosh etc.

As a stream monster, pretty much every fan favourite. Who I'd like to take it all? Chris G.

 

[shaowebb]

I'm rooting for Combofiend because he has an interesting team and is unique. If not him I want that guy rocking Spencer/Haggar/Sentinel to body everyone.

I'm betting that Justin Wong will rock the house though.

 

[enzo_gt]

I'm rooting for Combofiend because he has an interesting team and is unique. If not him I want that guy rocking Spencer/Haggar/Sentinel to body everyone.

I'm betting that Justin Wong will rock the house though.

I'm not rooting for Combofiend as much because I officially declare he has an illegal amount of synergy in his team and thus he should be BANNED.

 

[QisTopTier]

You know what I really hate the way they took away caps inf. I actually had a pretty damn good combo with him that didnt use it, but because of the hit stun change the combo stopped working and he turned to even more shit

ps. rooting for jwong

 

[Parallax Scroll]

jwong

 

[Neki]

Honestly, I hope they nerf all the one button wonder characters. With that said, I want them to make their other attacks have proper uses outside of combos.

I use sword ammy so I can't be a one button wonder. oh shiiiiiii

 

[Lazy vs Crazy]

I want to see Marn, MastaCJ and MarlinPie make top 8.

Marn just for the lol factor that follows him and the other two because they are super entertaining to watch.

 

[Karsticles]

As much as I like Justin Wong as a player, I like the idea of Combofiend winning with three characters that aren't considered to be in the top 5. I don't want a Dormammu player to win, because it would probably mean nerfs in Ultimate. :-X

Edit: I also like the idea of a foreigner winning (any one, really) just because it will upset people so much.

 

[enzo_gt]

How can y'all root for anti-hype? Anyone that uses Phoenix or Wolverine is anti-hype. Wong is anti-hype

 

[Neki]

As much as I like Justin Wong as a player, I like the idea of Combofiend winning with three characters that aren't considered to be in the top 5. I don't want a Dormammu player to win, because it would probably mean nerfs in Ultimate. :-X

Taskmaster and She-Hulk are close to top 5 though, along with Ammy/Storm.

 

[Anth0ny]

Tokido or Daigo has to make it to the finals. Max hype will be reached when it's USA vs. Japan.

Phoenix team vs. non-Phoenix team would be nice too =)

 

[Karsticles]

Taskmaster and She-Hulk are close to top 5 though, along with Ammy/Storm.

Let me do a better job of conveying my position:
Outside of Combofiend, every player we think has a chance of taking it used Phoenix, Wolverine, or both. When it's over, everyone will say "Well yeah, he used Phoenix/Wolverine, of course he'd win". I want people's ideas of dominance to be overturned, and I think of all the players we know of, Combofiend is the best chance of making that happen.