LateBloomer
Banned
Its in the same part of the constitution of no shoes no shirt no service lol. Your freedom doesn't mean real freedom in the sense you can do whatever you want, surely you know that! Never has never will.
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Mask Efficacy |OT| Wuhan!! Got You All In Check
- Thread starter keraj37
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Its in the same part of the constitution of no shoes no shirt no service lol. Your freedom doesn't mean real freedom in the sense you can do whatever you want, surely you know that! Never has never will.
diffusionx
Gold Member
That's not how any of this works. The First Amendment isn't a no shirts no shoes no service type of thing. Stop acting like a shill for tyrants.
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LateBloomer
Banned
I'm not? I dont see any tyrants but the ones shooting at civilians in our cities. Masks aren't tyranny, grow up and quit with the tyrannical fear porn. Just man up and do what we need to do to get through this by next March and we will be good to go.
Joe T.
Member
It was ultimately the concern of overcrowded hospitals that required we put in place strong measures to mitigate the spread. If their hospitals are fine then why adopt the fear-driven approach so many others have? Auckland, New Zealand went into another fifteen day lockdown of all "non-essential" businesses this week over 30 or so positive tests. I'd be camped outside the prime minister's residence with pitchfork in hand if that happened here. Aiming for perfection and overreacting the second a few cases pop up is absurd, I don't see the appeal of living like that.
Canada's hardest hit province of Quebec straight up uses fear to motivate people into wearing masks and that didn't start until long after we crushed the curve and reopened which only highlighted the ridiculous state of affairs:
"We don't want to relive this. Wear a mask. Keep your distance."
How about factoring in all the collateral damage from the initial response (social, psychological, economic, etc), admitting a great many mistakes were made and learning from them so we don't suffer more than we need to? Does anyone publicly admit and learn from their mistakes anymore?
Public health advice can be even more dangerous than the virus itself when placed in the hands of elected leaders with myopic views, unwilling to challenge the grossly irresponsible media coverage and activists posing as reporters. Some of those "reporters" spent weeks pressuring the government into mandating face masks here. I salute their zealotry, successfully manipulating the public and pressuring the government to fall in line even when scientific advice, data and studies practically runs counter to the adoption of masks in public spaces.
It's a mad world.
diffusionx
Gold Member
“Just do whatever the government tells you to do, dont question it, just be a man and submit.”
Pathetic.
LateBloomer
Banned
Dude. Its a mask. Chill with the fear porn, I'm still a manly man lol. Same dude as before, just some clothe dDon't act like the apocalypse is coming its embarrassing.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Pathetic
LateBloomer
Banned
I can handle it. NBD bro.
cryptoadam
Banned
LOL its rich of Legault and co to release this when 80% of the deaths were from the LTC's and the disaster that was there. The ad should be about them letting old age homes being abandoned with Aruda and Legault in the background telling everyone not to wear masks like they were back in March/April/May. Those guys killed more people with their incompetence in protecting the old than any non mask wearer. You could play a full season at a packed Bell Center and you probably don't kill as many.
BadBurger
Many “Whelps”! Handle It!
Yea, those two countries aren't looking good. Indonesia as an 8% increase in the last seven days, Philippines a 5%.
I use the WHO data tool here: https://covid19.who.int/
There's not a lot of options but it's effective for quickly getting data on any country by simply hovering over it. It's funny that New Zealand has a 457% change because they got four or five new cases after a hundred days without one, heh.
diffusionx
Gold Member
This is sort of where we get into the question of, do we need to know every fucking case that pops up with mass testing. Do we know every single person who comes down with the flu every year? of course not, but it's not necessary.
If Cambodia, Vietnam, and Thailand are in a situation where they can function fine and have the hospital resources to take care of the people who need it, then why do they need to build up this massive infrastructure to swab everyone with a cough and a fever? And what good does it do for them?
We saw what happened in the US and Europe when testing capacity ramped up massively, the media started treating every case like the end of the world and an excuse for more shutdowns, even if they were all 25 year olds who got over it in a week.
LateBloomer
Banned
But they aren't all 25 year olds who get over it in a week, 170k+ deaths in America alone.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Virtually everyone (>95%) who dies from this is old and with some other existing serious ailment. This is beyond dispute, an objectively true statement. The vast majority of them were already at the end of their life. A bunch of 25 year olds catching it at a bar is not a big deal.
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LateBloomer
Banned
Well then they pass it on and people die, there is actually 200k+ excessive deaths this year compared to 3 year average. Cant pretend forever, but its ok we will survive without an apocalypse.
diffusionx
Gold Member
Everyone is going to pass it on to everyone else eventually, it's a contagious virus. And besides, the idea that somebody may pass it on to somebody else is not a justifiable excuse to force everyone to comply with these insane orders and tank the economy. For example, many of us are intentionally avoiding older family members right now for this reason and live alone, or with a spouse + kids, etc.
Those excess deaths analyses are going to level themselves out over time, because, again, we are talking about people who were overwhelmingly going to die soon anyway. Unless the actual true carnage comes which is tons of deaths not because of COVID but the lockdown (suicide, mental health issues, drug and alcohol abuse, etc.)
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LateBloomer
Banned
Using that logic any catastrophic event even terrorist attacks don't matter because eventually those people would die anyway, may take longer but still. Eventually it levels out, I mean come on man give me break.
diffusionx
Gold Member
If you don’t understand the difference between, for example, a healthy 35 year old father dying and a 85 year with heart disease and COPD dying I don’t know what to tell you.
If this disease was wiping out the former I would be in favor of much more stringent measures. The Spanish flu did this.
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Malakhov
Banned
No shit. Hospital I'm at have very few covid cases now, we're back at out usual daily routine but now we need to wear masks. When it started and it was a shitshow, bosses were telling us not to wear them.
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DeepBreath87
Banned
There is an enormous difference between a disease that kills people at the end of their natural lives and a disease that kills children. It doesn’t take a smart person to understand why that is the case. So... your inability to do so says a lot actually.
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CloudNull
Banned
You’re a troll. I watch the riots every night streamed lived. They are not peaceful. I will not derail this thread but trust me this account doesn’t know shit about Portland.
LateBloomer
Banned
Fake news! I'm literally down here right now! Am almost every night. Not often you get to see shit go down first hand and then see how media and people like you spinning the other way. But I agree keep this to covid.
triplestation
Member
one nice thing that has come out of this pandemic is that people are drinking freely now in restaurants that have been converted into outside restaurants
thats really nice to see
thats really nice to see
NYR
Member
Sure. It’s in the 10th amendment.
All constitutional rights are subject to the goverment’s authority to protect the health, safety and welfare of the community. The 10th amendment provides States police power (bolded so you google it) which gives states the rights and powers "not delegated to the United States." In other words, States are granted the power to establish and enforce laws protecting the welfare, safety, and health of the public. The Supreme Court has long held this to be the case that protecting public health is sufficient reason to institute measures that might otherwise violate the First Amendment or other provisions in the Bill of Rights.
Finally, the most basic understanding of rights is your exercising of your rights can not nor should not endanger others (and in so doing violate their rights) or the public welfare. This is simply another version of the police power doctrine. Long story short - don’t be a cunt because you have the freedom and right to be one.
Based on your ridiculous and simplistic logic, cars and any laws about them such as speeding should be illegal since there was no mention of cars in the Constitution.
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DeepBreath87
Banned
diffusionx
Gold Member
Based on your nonsense, cars should actually be illegal because people get hit by them and die. There’s no “authority to protect the health, safety, and welfare of the community” that supersedes all, and the 10thn amendment doesnt give a state the power to invalidate the first or any other - courts have been very clear on this over the centuries.
That said, It is possible for governments to impose limited restrictions in emergencies, but those restrictions must be LIMITED; in other words, the absolute minimum for the least amount of time possible. This was the reasoning behind the initial lockdown/quarantine which most of us thought were reasonable at the time (albeit it became obvious in the first 2 weeks it was unnecessary).
The problem comes post-riot. The government decided not just to endorse the “protests” but in some instances get in on it. And once it did that, the jig was up. The government lost the legitimacy to enforce these restrictions when it allowed mass gatherings day after day. And it made no logical sense to keep these restrictions in place when cases started spiking 1-2 weeks after the protests began. There’s just no justification for the government to tell people they cannot express their first amendment rights in church while it also tells people they can express their first amendment rights throwing bricks through windows outside.
So the question isn’t, “can the government for a short period of time impose some limitations on our rights”, the question is, “can the government, indefinitely, impose a bizarre and incoherent set of restrictions that it selectively enforces, depending on the politics of the participants.” Yes to the first, obviously no to the second.
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Jezbollah
Member
The only way to ascertain if Covid has "gone away" is to compare death rates.
Show all official deaths from this year. Compare against averages from the past few years. Identify excess deaths.
We know about deaths. We do not know about who we don't test, especially if we're dealing with an a symptomous virus.
Show all official deaths from this year. Compare against averages from the past few years. Identify excess deaths.
We know about deaths. We do not know about who we don't test, especially if we're dealing with an a symptomous virus.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Death rates won't tell you much until the USA stops coding everything as a COVID death even when alternate causes are identifiable.
Pantz
Member
Dude I've been watching the Portland protests almost every night because they're fairly entertaining. Every night is the same, the police sit back and don't make a peep, then people start throwing stuff and usually light something on fire, at that point it's declared a riot and THEN they do what they do to disperse the crowd. Lately they've gotten their act together and actually started making arrests. Could be why less people are showing up. And yeah there are plenty of people not wearing masks including the police. Don't forget all the people wearing their masks on their chins.
LateBloomer
Banned
Quit derailing this thread with misinformation about another topic.
Jezbollah
Member
No, you don't do it by classification of deaths, just numbers.
You have a trend of deathrate based on all causes. It'll be roughly consistent year by year. This year it won't be. Thats how you tell.
LateBloomer
Banned
Exactly. 200k+ excessive deaths in US and last I looked basically every state with high covid deaths is also high excessive deaths aka this shit is real. Not the end of the world, But not fake news either. Just need everyone to stay diligent throughout the rest of the year so the inevitable fall push doesn't kill too many more Americans. Sad times.
Joe T.
Member
That only works if life this year carried on as usual. Safe to say that's not the case. There are a long list of drastic changes that contributed to the current death toll, society driven into panic mode being the easiest to spotlight.
Anxiety makes us bad decision-makers. Here’s how to do better | CNN
Anxiety is on the rise globally amid the pandemic, and it can interfere with our ability to make decisions. Experts say, however, there’s a lot you can do to manage anxiety — techniques you can use to feel better and make wise choices. Here’s how.
www.cnn.com
The world's made a lot of bad decisions and we haven't corrected many of them yet because a large chunk of the population is still highly anxious, the media's unbelievably irresponsible reporting keeping them locked in that position.
LateBloomer
Banned
That only works if life this year carried on as usual. Safe to say that's not the case. There are a long list of drastic changes that contributed to the current death toll, society driven into panic mode being the easiest to spotlight.
Anxiety makes us bad decision-makers. Here’s how to do better | CNN
Anxiety is on the rise globally amid the pandemic, and it can interfere with our ability to make decisions. Experts say, however, there’s a lot you can do to manage anxiety — techniques you can use to feel better and make wise choices. Here’s how.
The world's made a lot of bad decisions and we haven't corrected many of them yet because a large chunk of the population is still highly anxious, the media's unbelievably irresponsible reporting keeping them locked in that position.
I dont know where you live but Oregon is basically business as usual with exception of wearing a mask. I just dont think having a strict lock down months ago really made people just drop like flies. The easiest answer is usually the correct answer and the easiest answer is covid makes up the vast majority of those excessive deaths. That's not to say a certain % of those werent from decisions that were made of course, I dont think that's out of the question at all. But not 220k or whatever it is. Not to mention I'm sure there were less deaths in some ways due to lockdown like car crashes. If people are committing suicide at an alarming rate because they have to wear masks or were quarantined for a short time months ago then that points to a much great health issue lol
Jezbollah
Member
That only works if life this year carried on as usual. Safe to say that's not the case. There are a long list of drastic changes that contributed to the current death toll, society driven into panic mode being the easiest to spotlight.
Anxiety makes us bad decision-makers. Here’s how to do better | CNN
Anxiety is on the rise globally amid the pandemic, and it can interfere with our ability to make decisions. Experts say, however, there’s a lot you can do to manage anxiety — techniques you can use to feel better and make wise choices. Here’s how.
The world's made a lot of bad decisions and we haven't corrected many of them yet because a large chunk of the population is still highly anxious, the media's unbelievably irresponsible reporting keeping them locked in that position.
This is he UK's excess death total in 2020.
The only deaths that are not down to COVID that could contribute to the excess death toll would be if people who were ill form other causes were hesitent to access healthcare services - which is very likely to be the reasons for some additional deeaths - but not many that would contribute to the above. As I said - we don't know all the cases, but we will the deaths. And this is about as good an indicator as we will ever have beyond countrywide antibody and t-cell testing.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
It being higher this year has as much to do with the response to COVID (aggressive lockdown measures), rioting, stopping police from doing their full jobs in certain cities, etc. places like NYC and Chicago saw skyrocketing homicide rates this year but you want to just say "there's more death, it's COVID!"
LateBloomer
Banned
Yeah.....the riots caused 200k+ excessive deaths. Right. The mental gymnastics required are mind boggling.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
I was just listing a bunch of things. Doctors have come out and said there's been excess suicides this year due to the mental health crisis caused by this, they're talking about people dying of all sorts of causes from fear of going to a hospital for their symptoms. We also were EXPLICITLY TOLD that anyone who dies with COVID is a COVID death regardless of other causes being apparent.
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Joe T.
Member
This is he UK's excess death total in 2020.
The only deaths that are not down to COVID that could contribute to the excess death toll would be if people who were ill form other causes were hesitent to access healthcare services - which is very likely to be the reasons for some additional deeaths - but not many that would contribute to the above. As I said - we don't know all the cases, but we will the deaths. And this is about as good an indicator as we will ever have beyond countrywide antibody and t-cell testing.
You're oversimplifying a very complex issue. Old age homes were compromised by staff that didn't show up out of fear. Hospital procedures of various types were cancelled or delayed for months. Patients were rushed onto ventilators unnecessarily quickly. Take note that this is coming from the BBC, not exactly a right of center conspiracy theorist source:
Why most Covid-19 deaths won’t be from the virus
From a famine of “biblical” proportions to a deluge of undiagnosed cancers, while we’re all worrying about the coronavirus, most fatalities could be collateral damage.
www.bbc.com
None of this should be a surprise to anyone that's been paying close attention to the reporting.
Remember "the cure cannot be worse than the disease"? I think that in some areas of the world it has been, like here in the hardest hit part of Canada. That argument can probably be made in a lot of other places, too. As the article goes on to say, it'll be felt much harder in poor areas of the world.
LateBloomer
Banned
You listed everything but covid lmao. Let's just say 180k were from covid and 20k from other shit. Covid is still a thing! And there is a bunch of states that dont report it that way fyi. One state was reporting deaths that way because it helps with tracking but a bunch of Karen's cried about it so they switched it and they changed a total of 7 deaths out of over 1k. So again you are focusing on the 1% and trying to make it sound like its 90% of the issue. Severely misinformed.
Explosive Zombie
Banned
Asymptomatic COVID cases that die from causes like... getting hit by a fucking car... count as COVID and you're going to sit here and tell me the death rate isn't being inflated, LOFL. The excess deaths BS assumes everything else is normal, the worst states for COVID deaths are the ones that put COVID positive people into nursing homes, artificially inflating the number through sheer incompetence or even worse... actual malice/political maneuvering.
LateBloomer
Banned
Asymptomatic COVID cases that die from causes like... getting hit by a fucking car... count as COVID and you're going to sit here and tell me the death rate isn't being inflated, LOFL. The excess deaths BS assumes everything else is normal, the worst states for COVID deaths are the ones that put COVID positive people into nursing homes, artificially inflating the number through sheer incompetence or even worse... actual malice/political maneuvering.
Yes you're right. 200k people have tested positive for covid then turned around and died from a car accident. I guess this whole time all we have had to do was take peoples cars away after testing positive and we would be good! I could show plenty of reports showing the virus is ALSO under counted in many areas which leads to any normal human without an agenda to realize the #s are most likely accurate within a certain acceptable % which could go either way in reality! Welcome to reality buddy! Might feel weird at first but you will get used to it.
NYR
Member
Read case law. You’re an idiot.
Two centuries of law guide legal approach to modern pandemic
As COVID-19 continues its assault on the country, residents in more than 10 states have been ordered to stay home and businesses, including restaurants, health clubs and entire malls, have been closed as governors nationwide take extraordinary steps in an effort to protect public health. Under...
Under the U.S. Constitution’s 10th Amendment and U.S. Supreme Court decisions over nearly 200 years, state governments have the primary authority to control the spread of dangerous diseases within their jurisdictions. The 10th Amendment, which gives states all powers not specifically given to the federal government, allows them the authority to take public health emergency actions, such as setting quarantines and business restrictions.
cryptoadam
Banned
If you are under 60 with 1 or less comorbidities then you have 1% or less chance of kicking the can from COVID.
Now this is from Denmark. So I think the one disadvantage the USA has is that they have too many fatties. COVID feast on fatties. But if you are fat most likely you will have another underlying condition like diabetes, hypertension etc...
LateBloomer
Banned
If you are under 60 with 1 or less comorbidities then you have 1% or less chance of kicking the can from COVID.
Now this is from Denmark. So I think the one disadvantage the USA has is that they have too many fatties. COVID feast on fatties. But if you are fat most likely you will have another underlying condition like diabetes, hypertension etc...
What you dont get is even 1% is high! If half of America got it with a 1% death rate how many deaths is that? Yeah a fuck ton. Hence doing what we need to do, mask and social distance to hopefully get that death % down way lower then that through improved treatment. Onviously we handle it better now then we did 4 months ago so the longer we push the spread out the more lives we can save. Its literally that simple.
LateBloomer
Banned
For some context the Spanish flu is around 2% death rate with 600k Americans dying.
cryptoadam
Banned
1% is if you have underlying conditions. For those under 50 its less than 1%, probably around .05%. And the younger you are the less it gets.
My point was that for people who aren't old the virus isn't a destroy society virus. Take precautions, don't spend 10 weeks rioting, isolate the old and you will get past the virus. Where I live we had 18 cases yesterday, 11 2 days before that. Been hovering in the 40-80 range for weeks even though at the start of this we were equal to Italy and NYC. 86% of our deaths were in old age homes because our government totally failed us and left them to die in their own shit.
The US though have too many fatties and its probably one of the bigger reasons why they are getting hit a bit harder in the under 55 age range. Still only about 13K deaths over 8 months. AIDS, Malaria, and Obesity put up numbers like that too and society hasn't been shut down over those.
LateBloomer
Banned
I've been saying the whole time just wear masks and social distance and we can get through this. I'm arguing against the people who claim covid isn't real and hasn't killed anyone and masks dont work. The reality is 170k Americans have died and this fall could be even worse if people don't do what needs to be done. And singling out the couple hundred people protesting outside wearing masks is just showing your agenda. Facts and reality don't care what your opinions are. The majority of outbreaks are workplace and linked back to indoor gatherings with no masks.
pel1300
Member
1. You're arguing against a straw man/invisible opponent
2 You can't seriously trust the 170k figure knowing how deaths have been reported + looking at worldwide statistics
3. A coupe hundred protesters? You're obtuse.
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