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[Snuggles]

I imported my ME1 character, but it says my level is 58. I don't really want to start off ME2 a super powerful dude, how does that work?

You're back to level 1 in ME2. You'll just get a few small boosts by importing at a high level. Everything else is just story related, so you don't have anything to worry about.

my dream team for ME3 would be

Lover from ME1 (Ashley/Liara/Kaiden)
Lover from ME2 (if you had one, or if your lover is one of the "dream team" members, Grunt takes their place)
Wrex
Aria
Thane
Garrus
A Hanar/ Elcor party member
A batarian party member
Some obscure side character from one of the first two games
EDI who is in a mech/geth body

These sound good, cept you're missing one I'd miss the most: Tali. Maybe Kasumi could carry over and actually get her own story and dialogue this time.
My idea line up would be half of the greatest hits, like Tali/Wrex/Garrus and Thane or Mordin and the other half could be new people. Anderson should be the human soldier squad mate in the next game.

 

[Samara]

How come no one mentions Miranda? She is like a fucking tank! Can't go anywhere without a Sentinel. Making her so was like giving Wynne's powers to Morrigan :lol

Samara, I'd like to see but I'm sure that

Spoiler

Morinth

is more likely to stay given she has nothing better to do. Area Reave on Arbinger is pure <3

Legion can fuck off. I finish the game then activate him, if not some people die.

 

[Snuggles]

How come no one mentions Miranda? She is like a fucking tank! Can't go anywhere without a Sentinel. Making her so was like giving Morrigan Wynne's powers's :lol

My opinions on the characters tend to be based purely on their personality and not their combat ability, even when it comes to selecting my squad while playing the game. I chose the characters that I want to hear talk.
Then again, I've never played on the insane difficulty so I've never had to stick with the most powerful characters, just the ones I like.

But I would also like to see Samara return, I liked her. I'd take her over the likely choice of Liara for the Asari squadmate.

 

[Enduin]

Spoilers: Does anyone know if I get Legion before Tali if I will still be able to complete her recruitment and both their loyalty missions before I lose my crew and they start to die in the collectors base?

I want to see the dialog changes that occur with both of them around for her recruitment and both of their loyalty missions but I dont want to do so at the cost of losing some of my crew.

 

[Patryn]

my dream team for ME3 would be

Lover from ME1 (Ashley/Liara/Kaiden)
Lover from ME2 (if you had one, or if your lover is one of the "dream team" members, Grunt takes their place)
Wrex
Aria
Thane
Garrus
A Hanar/ Elcor party member
A batarian party member
Some obscure side character from one of the first two games
EDI who is in a mech/geth body

I'm kind of annoyed that they missed the opportunity to include a Batarian in ME2. It seems to me, that if the point of the game was that you're working with the less savory element of the universe, a Batarian would have fit right in.

Then again, there's probably no justifiable reason a Batarian would ever want to save humans alone.

Spoilers: Does anyone know if I get Legion before Tali if I will still be able to complete her recruitment and both their loyalty missions before I lose my crew and they start to die in the collectors base?

I want to see the dialog changes that occur with both of them around for her recruitment and both of their loyalty missions but I dont want to do so at the cost of losing some of my crew.

No.

 

[Snuggles]

I'm kind of annoyed that they missed the opportunity to include a Batarian in ME2. It seems to me, that if the point of the game was that you're working with the less savory element of the universe, a Batarian would have fit right in.

I forget what they're called but I want one of that mongoose humanoid characters in my crew for the 3rd game. For sure.

 

[EatChildren]

I'm kind of annoyed that they missed the opportunity to include a Batarian in ME2. It seems to me, that if the point of the game was that you're working with the less savory element of the universe, a Batarian would have fit right in.

Then again, there's probably no justifiable reason a Batarian would ever want to save humans alone.

Yeah same, especially with the fucking ridiculous line-up of human squad members.

As I've said in this thread a few times now, I'm pretty certain BioWare have shot themselves in the foot *ehem* regarding squad members from ME2 returning as squad members in ME3, entirely due to the nature of the suicide mission.

Coupled with the nature of ME1's squad members, I think the only familiar character across both games that has a likelihood of returning is Liara.

I expect ME3 to be all about 'rallying the races', kind of like Dragon Age, to fight against the Reapers. I predict that their method of using older squadmates that can die, like Wrex, Tali, Mordin, and the rest of the ME2 crew, many of them if alive will helm the fleets for their associated races.

Easy way for BioWare to remove them from your squad while still trying to shoehorn them into the story in some significant way.

 

[gdt]

Boy...it feel incredibly different from ME1. I also don't know if I like this Cerberus setup. A vague powerful sorta terrorist group...doesn't really seem like Shephard, who's a goddamn hero and a high ranking Citadel figure, not to mention Alliance officer, would drop all that to join Cerberus. I really liked being a badass SPECTRE.

I haven't left the Normandy yet, just explored the whole thing.

I like the combat well enough, and the game is a huge technical leap from ME1. Gotta let all of these changes sink in before I decide if I like them or not.

 

[kai3345]

EDI who is in a mech/geth body

I've been thinking of this more and more since I first wrote it.

She pretty much has to be in ME3. She has everything that a good ME3 squad mate needs.

-Allows a new playable race (Mech)

-It's a character we've seen before, so its not like shes just appearing out of nowhere, we know at least a little about her and shes had some part in the story.

-She wasn't a squad mate in the second game, so its impossible that she could have died in the suicide mission.

 

[ukresistance]

I've been thinking of this more and more since I first wrote it.

She pretty much has to be in ME3. She has everything that a good ME3 squad mate needs.

-Allows a new playable race (Mech)

-It's a character we've seen before, so its not like shes just appearing out of nowhere, we know at least a little about her and shes had some part in the story.

-She wasn't a squad mate in the second game, so its impossible that she could have died in the suicide mission.

EDI already has a body! It's awesome, so sleek, curves in all the right places and has Normandy tattooed on her side.

I can't see her giving it up for one of those flimsy LOKI mech shells.

 

[Wallach]

Man, the new weapons in the DLC are ridiculous.

sogood.jpg

 

[Sir Garbageman]

my dream team for ME3 would be

Lover from ME1 (Ashley/Liara/Kaiden)
Lover from ME2 (if you had one, or if your lover is one of the "dream team" members, Grunt takes their place)
Wrex
Aria
Thane
Garrus
A Hanar/ Elcor party member
A batarian party member
Some obscure side character from one of the first two games
EDI who is in a mech/geth body

Really like both those ideas.

 

[Solo]

Just me and Ash against the galaxy in ME3.

 

[diamondstar]

I really liked being a badass SPECTRE.

This is what I missed most. I was shocked the Spectre story didn't continue much in ME2. Such a fucking let down.

 

[gdt]

God, this game is fucking beautiful.

I'm digging the combat system, thought I'm still wondering if I prefer the old overheating system. I don't like looking around for ammo in the middle of a fight, especially when these weapons can't hold shit right now.

I'm loving this "assemble the team" storyline. That's all I'm doing right now, and sidequests. Just got Arkangel. Also, the characters are a serious upgrade here. Alenko, Tali, Turian dude were all pretty boring in ME1. Miranda is great, Arkangel (I know) is great, Jacob is meh so far though. Zaheed is awesome. Haven't done his loyalty mission though yet.

When does the next (...and final?) DLC come out? Isn't it about the Shadow Broker/Liara?

 

[kai3345]

God, this game is fucking beautiful.

I'm digging the combat system, thought I'm still wondering if I prefer the old overheating system. I don't like looking around for ammo in the middle of a fight, especially when these weapons can't hold shit right now.

I'm loving this "assemble the team" storyline. That's all I'm doing right now, and sidequests. Just got Arkangel. Also, the characters are a serious upgrade here. Alenko, Tali, Turian dude were all pretty boring in ME1. Miranda is great, Arkangel (I know) is great, Jacob is meh so far though. Zaheed is awesome. Haven't done his loyalty mission though yet.

When does the next (...and final?) DLC come out? Isn't it about the Shadow Broker/Liara?

so you hate garrus but you like archangel? hmmmm

and once you get over your initial "Ohmygodthisissoawesome" feeling you'll slowly realize that 1 was the superior game

 

[Subitai]

EDI already has a body! It's awesome, so sleek, curves in all the right places and has Normandy tattooed on her side.

I can't see her giving it up for one of those flimsy LOKI mech shells.

I think more along the lines of uploading part of herself.

What I'm finding I enjoy most in this thread is the wildly varying opinion for each character.

 

[EatChildren]

When does the next (...and final?) DLC come out? Isn't it about the Shadow Broker/Liara?

The Shadow Broker/Liara DLC is next, but doesn't have a release date yet. BioWare have been consistant with a onec-per-month release schedual, and always a Tuesday, so I think we'll get it the first Tuesday of September.

But its not the last DLC. BioWare are building bridging DLC that will tell the story between ME2 and ME3, so there's plenty more to go.

 

[Stallion Free]

But its not the last DLC. BioWare are building bridging DLC that will tell the story between ME2 and ME3, so there's plenty more to go.

Damn them, a couple bucks once a month is spaced enough that I don't really notice and I have really been digging the actual content DLC released so far.

 

[Denzar]

I-I think I'm falling in love with Miranda...

What great character design. Aside from the voluptuousness of her body, it's the imperfections in het digital beauty that get me. Such attention to detail, big hips, imperfect teeth. <3

And boy, Yvonne Strahovski...

So dreamy...

 

[gdt]

so you hate garrus but you like archangel? hmmmm

and once you get over your initial "Ohmygodthisissoawesome" feeling you'll slowly realize that 1 was the superior game

Meaning, that he's much, much more interesting this time around.

Also, it's pretty deluded to tell me how I'll feel :lol . I'm in it 10 hours, I can start formulating opinions at this point.

I also didn't comment on whether or not I like ME2 moreso than 1.

 

[Slermy]

my dream team for ME3 would be

Lover from ME1 (Ashley/Liara/Kaiden)
Lover from ME2 (if you had one, or if your lover is one of the "dream team" members, Grunt takes their place)
Wrex
Aria
Thane
Garrus
A Hanar/ Elcor party member
A batarian party member
Some obscure side character from one of the first two games
EDI who is in a mech/geth body

YES. I want both. Even better if I can assign the Elcor to be my communications officer.

 

[UpperCaseN]

Just started playing this, about 8 hours in. Hot damn! This game is amazing, went ahead and got both Overlord and Kasumi DLC, plus all the free stuff with the Cerberus Network.

Ran into a glitch, was up against a wall fighting some guys when I started floating up the wall and ended up in the ceiling. Squadmates finished the fight below but as I ran around above the level, they followed me up there somehow. Wasn't anyway for me to get back on the ground, had to restart last checkpoint.

 

[EatChildren]

Ran into a glitch, was up against a wall fighting some guys when I started floating up the wall and ended up in the ceiling. Squadmates finished the fight below but as I ran around above the level, they followed me up there somehow. Wasn't anyway for me to get back on the ground, had to restart last checkpoint.

Was it the Krogan recruit mission? I cant play that mission without running into that bug at least once. Literally every single time.

 

[gdt]

I'm 10 hours in, and so far I've recruited Arcangel, Mordin, and Zaheed. I've done some sidemissions, and I'm about to do Zaheed's loyalty missions. Waiting on the points card I ordered from Amazon to download those DLC packs.

 

[kai3345]

I'm 10 hours in, and so far I've recruited Arcangel, Mordin, and Zaheed. I've done some sidemissions, and I'm about to do Zaheed's loyalty missions. Waiting on the points card I ordered from Amazon to download those DLC packs.

Just get Overlord, don't bother with the others

 

[Crazypanda_85]

Had to return my 360 S Model a month back (started to act up on me) and decided to reserve the Halo Reach bundle (I'm not a Halo fan but I really, really like the design of the Reach edition console). Haven't played ME2 in so long and I'm slowly counting the days til H:R comes out... so I can play ME2 By then, I hope the Liara DLC is out. I only had the Cerberus Network DLC so next month I'm buying everything from the costume DLC to the Overlord DLC. Hurry up with ME3 BioWare! Hmm... on second thought, take your time. Don't rush it, make it right.

*****EDIT*****

Nevermind. I ended up canceling my HR 360 S Bundle reserve and bought the 4gb model (I'm a bigger PS3 fan than I am 360 and the system is mainly for the few titles I like on 360 that are not on PS3). I'll buy the ScanDisk thumb drive in a week or two so I can DL the DLC on there but for now, I'm good.

 

[Pancakes]

Finished reading Retribution. It was a pretty good read (If you like the universe) but, I think I preferred Ascension a little more if only because we got to visit the Flotilla .

 

[EatChildren]

Finished Retribution. Overall enjoyed it all things considered (videogame sci-fi slosh), but it was easily my least favourite of the three novels. Spoilering my likes, dislikes, and thoughts.

Spoiler

My first issue is the canon choice of having Udina as the councillor. All Mass Effect content so far has been very careful as to never specify any canon choices. Drew made sure the first two books never did this, and the comics never implied anything either. Drew said Retribution would be the same, but there we go. I knew about this canon choice before I read the novel, but seeing its implimentation was annoying.

At first there's not even a reason to specify who is who, it just blatantly calls Anderson "Admiral Anderson" and Udina "Councillor Udina". It does this for seemingly no reason, and could have been avoided by using more vague titles. Udina has no 'role', only Anderson. Then, despite it being a missed, vague opportunity, it then has Anderson specifically resign from his position. What the fuck? Why complicate shit for potential Mass Effect 3 canon clashing? The entire plot of Retribution could have played out without having Anderson 'resign', and without ever specifying his or Udina's position. Huge avoidable failure there, Drew.

My second issue is with Kahlee. She's a mary-sue. I didn't mind her in Revelation, she was okay in Ascension, but her poor writing and lack of any kind of flaw are exhausted in Retribution. She's just not interesting at all, practically flawless, and an extremely boring protagonist. "Kahlee Sanders is an extremely attractive female human with unique, rare natural blonde hair who is admired for her physical, mental, and personal details by all around her. She is one of the galaxy's greatest scientists, and always gets her way. Are you interested yet?" Also, her relationship Grayson wasn't even remotey convincing. At the end of Ascension Grayson had escaped, but Sanders still dispised him, or at least didn't trust him at all. I'm supposed to believe that after all the shit Grayson put them and Gillian through that a few weekly messages over a couple of years are supposed to make Kahlee give a damn? Come on.

Thirdy, and this is a problem I have with some of Drew's writing, is that he pays way too much attention at times to trivial and often hillariously stupid details. Specifically, at the start of the book, the student Nick hiding his erection from Kahlee. I couldn't believe I was reading such asinine rubbish that had no reason to be included at all. I dont know what Drew's purpose is with stuff like that.

My last issue is not so much with Drew, but my personal issue with children. I literally said "oh my fucking god" outloud when I hit chapter 25, as it started with fucking Nick, the fucking dumbass teenager, doing some dumb fucking shit, that would certainly end in his dumb fucking ass getting hurt. I hate. Hate. Children. I hate kids, I hate them being written into books, and I hate any amount of detail being put towards them unless they are an oblivious side character. Gillian in Ascension was fine, as she was more a gateway to the plot, a device in herself, than a character with much sway. Nick, on the other hand was not. Whenever I read situations like his I'm not thinking "Oh that silly boy I hope no harm comes to him oh no it did I hope he gets help!!!", I think "Fucking moron, I hope he dies quickly". I hate kids.

END RANT OF WHAT I HATE. Phew. Now, for what I liked and the implications I think it will have on Mass Effect 3.

Spoiler

I liked Grayson, as impossible as it was to sypathise with him, and I mostly enjoyed his progression into a Reaper tool. I didnt like it to begin with, as it felt too rushed, but towards the end it got much better. I liked how his mind began to blend with the Reapers on Omega, and I liked at the end how the Reapers were directly communicating with Kahlee. I'm also glad they killed him off and ended his saga.

Oh, I really liked Aria being in the plot too. Not too much, not too little. I liked Cerberus being taken down a notch too. Pulled back the curtain of their self imposed importance and power in Mass Effect 2.

As for implications on the plot of Mass Effect 3, I think it will somehow tie into the Reaper's mind controlling particular individuals, perhaps biotics. Biotics channel dark energy, and Mass Effect 2 made very sure to make dark energy a major theme that was setting up ME3, and Grayson digs into files specifically related to the biotics and the Ascension project. Those are my thoughts for now.

The end.

 

[Stallion Free]

Oh god, the end of you rant segment was hilarious and so fitting, EatChildren.

 

[UpperCaseN]

Was it the Krogan recruit mission? I cant play that mission without running into that bug at least once. Literally every single time.

No, it was the Archangel recruiting mission... I'll keep an eye out during the Krogan one

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Ran into a glitch, was up against a wall fighting some guys when I started floating up the wall and ended up in the ceiling.

That happened to me on the Citadel, right around the Japanese food stand; I had gotten lucky and it fixed itself. Good thing too because I hadn't saved the game in a while.

 

[Pancakes]

Finished Retribution. Overall enjoyed it all things considered (videogame sci-fi slosh), but it was easily my least favourite of the three novels. Spoilering my likes, dislikes, and thoughts.


The end.

Spoiler

I had the same reaction once I reached chapter 25.

Speaking of asinine moments, was it just me or were there like 50 instances of people trying to get a reaction out of other people (Drew basically spells it out)?

There was one moment I found particularly hilarious in Retribution. When Grayson is rescued by the Turians, Drew goes into specific detail about how he was scrunching his face while he was trying to fight off the Reapers control. And then out of nowhere proceeds to smash the Turian commander's (helmet clad) skull in with his bare fist. I was laughing for a good 5 minutes.

Anyway it was an enjoyable read.

 

[Fowler]

Spoiler

My first issue is the canon choice of having Udina as the councillor. All Mass Effect content so far has been very careful as to never specify any canon choices. Drew made sure the first two books never did this, and the comics never implied anything either. Drew said Retribution would be the same, but there we go. I knew about this canon choice before I read the novel, but seeing its implimentation was annoying.

At first there's not even a reason to specify who is who, it just blatantly calls Anderson "Admiral Anderson" and Udina "Councillor Udina". It does this for seemingly no reason, and could have been avoided by using more vague titles. Udina has no 'role', only Anderson. Then, despite it being a missed, vague opportunity, it then has Anderson specifically resign from his position. What the fuck? Why complicate shit for potential Mass Effect 3 canon clashing? The entire plot of Retribution could have played out without having Anderson 'resign', and without ever specifying his or Udina's position. Huge avoidable failure there, Drew.

Spoiler

Don't get me wrong... I think this was entirely avoidable. But I think it's also setting up ME3, where Anderson takes over the Illusive Man as Shepard's "handler" or whatever you want to call him. He and the Illusive Man say at the end he's dedicating himself to the fight against the Reapers. ME3 simply either needs to begin with him saying he resigned from the Council to do this job, or he resigned from his (name random position here) duties to do it.

Still: I agree that he easily could have written the book to avoid mentioning whether he or Udina was the real human Councilor. It's written vaguely enough everywhere else.

 

[Subitai]

I'm having trouble getting my friends who I know would love these games to take a break from what they're playing to try them out. Have any you been able to overcome this?

 

[EatChildren]

Spoiler

Speaking of asinine moments, was it just me or were there like 50 instances of people trying to get a reaction out of other people (Drew basically spells it out)?

Spoiler

Yeah, there were. I swear I read "so-and-so bit there lip" a hundred times. There were also a lot of "luckily" moments, where characters lucked out in an otherwise terrible situation.

Spoiler

Don't get me wrong... I think this was entirely avoidable. But I think it's also setting up ME3, where Anderson takes over the Illusive Man as Shepard's "handler" or whatever you want to call him. He and the Illusive Man say at the end he's dedicating himself to the fight against the Reapers. ME3 simply either needs to begin with him saying he resigned from the Council to do this job, or he resigned from his (name random position here) duties to do it.

Still: I agree that he easily could have written the book to avoid mentioning whether he or Udina was the real human Councilor. It's written vaguely enough everywhere else.

Spoiler

I expect that too and am cool with it. Anderson is the man, and if he's 'The Illusive Man' for Mass Effect 3 then I'm all for it. But yeah, it was moreso the way Drew presented the characters and their titles that annoyed me so. He could have still had Anderson go on the mission with Kahlee and resign without ever specifying that he is an Admiral and Udina is the Councillor. Damn you Drew. Damn you.

I'm having trouble getting my friends who I know would love these games to take a break from what they're playing to try them out. Have any you been able to overcome this?

Try and rope them into playing the demo maybe? If they're into digital distribution, Steam sales and the like are a good way to rope people in. I know a handful of people who never played the first game and initially wrote the series off as it looked cheap, tacky, and aimed at teenagers, but were swayed once they got the games cheap and gave them a go.

 

[DodgerSan]

For god's sake, think about what you just wrote. Really think about it. I do not think it means what you think it means.

SORRY GAF THIS IS MAKING ME CRAZY

Dear America...

 

[industrian]

This may or may not be a stupid question:

Do brand new versions of the 360 ME2 still come with the free DLC or was that just a launch bonus thing?

 

[EatChildren]

This may or may not be a stupid question:

Do brand new versions of the 360 ME2 still come with the free DLC or was that just a launch bonus thing?

Its still advertised on the website and it still comes with digital copies so I'm guessing yes. As long as you buy it new and retail, it will come with the code. Its just a way to screw people buying second hand.

 

[gdt]

So, I'm 22 hours in, and I'm totally loving this game. At first, I was a bit unsure about the major overhauls, but for the most part, I think it was the right choice.

Too much fucking probing though. I'm an asshole, so I'm fucking scanning EVERYTHING. And it sucks. Balls.

 

[Easy_D]

So, I'm 22 hours in, and I'm totally loving this game. At first, I was a bit unsure about the major overhauls, but for the most part, I think it was the right choice.

Too much fucking probing though. I'm an asshole, so I'm fucking scanning EVERYTHING. And it sucks. Balls.

There is an update you can buy for your ship that makes scanning twice as fast, still a bore though. (Pun intended?)

 

[Wiggum2007]

Too much fucking probing though. I'm an asshole, so I'm fucking scanning EVERYTHING. And it sucks. Balls.

:lol You should have seen it before they patched it.

 

[Sir Garbageman]

Just DL'ed Kasumi and the Overlord DLC. Almost forgot how awesome this game is. I plan on replaying ME1 and ME2 as an evil fem Shep ASAP.

 

[gdt]

There is an update you can buy for your ship that makes scanning twice as fast, still a bore though. (Pun intended?)

Yeah, I bought that.

My method is to work my way down the planet by levels. I scan the top 1st level by just pinning both thumbsticks to the right. Soon as that level is done, move to the next one, and etc etc etc.

Still not fast enough.

 

[EatChildren]

Dont scan them all, and dont deplete planets of resources entirely. You're just wasting your time.

Only scan planets that are either "Good" or "Rich" in resources. Its easier and faster to find high peaking scans, and once you get the planet down to "Moderate" there's not much point sticking around. The lower the resources, the harder it is to find high peaks.

There's tons of planets in the game, and tons of them are catagorised as "Good" or "Rich" in resources. Just use them, and dont waste your time scanning the whole thing.

 

[gdt]

I'm 30 hours in, and I'm pretty safe in saying I prefer this to the original, so yay for me! 2 of my favorite games ever, and probably my favorite RPGs. Bioware has owned me with everything they've done (I own DA:O, I'll start it after ME2), I haven't played the BG games though.

Anywho, I just completed the Collector Ship mission, but I'm still gathering my crew/loyalties. I downloaded the two DLCs, I'll start on those too.

Too many good choices for romance though . I think I'm going with Miranda this playthrough.

Question about Liara/ME1. (please keep as minimally spoilery as possible):

Spoiler

I choose Liara with this particular Shephard in ME1. Will I get to further this in this game? Her picture is in my quarters, btw.

 

[Fimbulvetr]

Question about Liara/ME1. (please keep as minimally spoilery as possible):

Spoiler

I choose Liara with this particular Shephard in ME1. Will I get to further this in this game? Her picture is in my quarters, btw.

Spoiler

Not really, you can choose to be faithful to her or pick a new crewmate for a romance. So, presumably, if you stay faithful your relationship could be built upon in ME3. Maybe.

 

[gdt]

Spoiler

Not really, you can choose to be faithful to her or pick a new crewmate for a romance. So, presumably, if you stay faithful your relationship could be built upon in ME3. Maybe.

Aw fuck.

 

[kai3345]

Currently replaying ME1 on Veteran with a FemShep, I plan on importing her into 2 and beating that on veteran as well.

Also FemShep Voice > MaleShep Voice

 

[Garcia el Gringo]

Michael Gamble, The Associate Producer of Mass Effect 2, had this to say about the release date of the upcoming Lair of the Shadowbroker DLC on the Bioware Forum.

Hi folks,



What I can tell you is this....



Once we actually announce the release date, you likely won't have to wait long before you all have it in your hands

Not much said, but an update is an update.