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[Deleted member 231381]

cledge, n.
1.a. A promissory statement which both the declarant and the intended recipient know to be false, untrue.

 

[SymbiantXenos]

Click Cleggs Cledges

 

[pulsemyne]

Can I just say that the last page in this thread was the worst thing on Neogaf in a long time. We had a picture of Clarkson, a picture of the sun creepy front page, a picture of Richard Littlejohn and the mental image of Littlejohn and Hopkins going at it.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Don't you find it a little worrying that there has only been a single election (2001) in which print media did not endorse the Conservatives? I know you're libertarian, if a little less of one these days, but people's ability to make free and fair decisions is tempered by the information they have available to them. If information-providers have an incentive to only provide certain sorts of information, then other people's freedoms are severely constrained as a result. Obviously there's a problem with dictating to any single individual publication, as each one in their own right does not constitute the problem, but it's the case of the camel's back under a thousand straws - it's not a problem when one publication does it, but when the overwhelming majority of them all do it together, it seems like you should maybe rethink how the system is structured.

Still, the fact people pay money for papers that are openly biased is just sad.

It shouldn't be banned, but we should have a culture that doesn't stand for it.

I'm looking forward to the death of print media a lot.

I don't think you'll need to wait long, RedShift. And Crab, you're right, people's opinion is tempered and formed by the information at their disposal. Aside from anything, I'd say that worrying about the print media's leanings now is rather like worrying if your VHS collection has been adequately dust-protected whilst it's been in the attic for 15 years. Who cares, we're all streaming films now! But really, the "power" of the news media has never been lower than it is today ever since people could, en masse, actually read. Martin Luther could have snuck in a bit about Jesus being, I dunno, less trustworthy than Jimmy Saville, and the people reading the Bible in German would have never known because they had access to no other bible; that's not true today, with the internet and TV and radio and whatnot. BUT even if newspaper were the only source, as long as you have a plurality of views on offer, I don't think it's that much of a problem. You can get both sides if you want to. If you don't, then I don't think any sort of distribution of views (say, 50:50) will compel you to. And finally, there are certain things over which an absolute concensus exists but at which most people don't seem concerned about - there's no major newspaper that actively advocates the privatisation of the NHS, say, or seeking to actively kill immigrants. We accept this lack of diversity on issues because we don't actually consider all views to be equal and so have no problem with fringe, unpopular ideas not having a hearing. Maybe, then, newspapers are such reflecting the fact that Labour's a bit, you know, shit.

Pointing out hypocrisy at the Daily Mail is pointless, and like shooting fish in a barrel, but:

Exhibit A: Labour are not the party who treated Savile like the nation's babysitter.

Not sure Saville is really what you could call a Party Political Issue:

He was who he was, his various activities don't belong to any party. Lord knows they have plenty of their own rapists.

 

[Tak3n]

FFS

even though I am a tory voter they are making it hard, not only did they cost us £800 when they slash working tax credits to 25K a year, on polictics show just now Rachel Reeves said they are going to means test child benefit down to 30K a year...

Ian Duncan Smith did not deny it

squeezed middle is a real thing

 

[Maledict]

FFS

even though I am a tory voter they are making it hard, not only did they cost us £800 when they slash working tax credits to 25K a year, on polictics show just now Rachel Reeves said they are going to means test child benefit down to 30K a year...

Ian Duncan Smith did not deny it

Anyone voting Tory and being surprised or upset that their benefits will go down should look at the numbers posted earlier.

It is not possible to take another £12 billion from the benefits system without touching child benefit or the state pension. We just don't give out enough to the poor, disabled and jobless to make that type of saving. Given how there's absolutely no way the conservatives will touch pensions, you have to expect a hit on the universal benefits. Now you might be fine with that - in the same way I don't object to the higher rates of tax I pay, but it's absolutely going to have to happen.

It's just a numbers game at this point.

 

[kmag]

Anyone voting Tory and being surprised or upset that their benefits will go down hasn't read their manifesto or commitments, or the financial stuff I posted earlier.

It is not possible to take another £12 billion from the benefits system without touching child benefit or the state pension. We just don't give out enough to the poor, disabled and jobless to make that type of saving. Given how there's absolutely no way the conservatives will touch pensions, you have to expect a hit on the universal benefits.

It's just a numbers game at this point.

Yep. Dave gave himself just enough wiggle room on child benefit last week to make it sound like wasn't he wasn't planning on cutting it, but in reality he promised absolutely nothing.

 

[King_Moc]

FFS

even though I am a tory voter they are making it hard, not only did they cost us £800 when they slash working tax credits to 25K a year, on polictics show just now Rachel Reeves said they are going to means test child benefit down to 30K a year...

Ian Duncan Smith did not deny it

squeezed middle is a real thing

Yup, both would fuck me too. It's not really a shock though, is it?

 

[Deleted member 231381]

It's child benefit, disability benefit, and housing benefit they'll hit. Too many Conservative voters are on the state pension to really fuck with it at anything more than surface level, but I'm expecting especially child benefit to see some pretty hefty hits.

 

[Real Hero]

I actually can't watch Ian Duncan Smith. He genuinely makes my skin crawl

 

[Mr Git]

I'm definitely in favour of referring to them as cledges from now on!

cledge, n.
1.a. A promissory statement which both the declarant and the intended recipient know to be false, untrue.

It's definitely my favourite English blend in years. I'm hoping it ends up permanently in the lexicon.

 

[CyclopsRock]

Aside from the politics of it, targeting pensions is always hard because it hits the one group who are typically unable to do anything about their circumstances changing. This is true for a lot of other groups too, but at least hope exists for many of them that, at some point, they'll be able to make changes. If you're retired and have an income of £x, then it goes to £x - £200 (even if it's just inflation reducing its real value) then there's not much you can do about it other than literally sell the family silver.

 

[MrChom]

I actually can't watch Ian Duncan Smith. He genuinely makes my skin crawl

Ahh, the Michael Howard effect.

 

[fizzelopeguss]

Segregated seating at a political rally, so much for Harman's pink bus.

Labour will do anything for a vote.

 

[Tak3n]

Aside from the politics of it, targeting pensions is always hard because it hits the one group who are typically unable to do anything about their circumstances changing. This is true for a lot of other groups too, but at least hope exists for many of them that, at some point, they'll be able to make changes. If you're retired and have an income of £x, then it goes to £x - £200 (even if it's just inflation reducing its real value) then there's not much you can do about it other than literally sell the family silver.

OMG that is exactly what IDS just said, almost to the word...... you have found your pension doppelganger

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Aside from the politics of it, targeting pensions is always hard because it hits the one group who are typically unable to do anything about their circumstances changing. This is true for a lot of other groups too, but at least hope exists for many of them that, at some point, they'll be able to make changes. If you're retired and have an income of £x, then it goes to £x - £200 (even if it's just inflation reducing its real value) then there's not much you can do about it other than literally sell the family silver.

On the other hand, you're statistically more likely to be wealthy than any other demographic. I also think you're severely overestimating the extent to which most families can be flexible in response to things like child benefit alterations.

 

[MrChom]

Aside from the politics of it, targeting pensions is always hard because it hits the one group who are typically unable to do anything about their circumstances changing. This is true for a lot of other groups too, but at least hope exists for many of them that, at some point, they'll be able to make changes. If you're retired and have an income of £x, then it goes to £x - £200 (even if it's just inflation reducing its real value) then there's not much you can do about it other than literally sell the family silver.

For the most part this is true, and is exactly why everyone of pension age should be means tested for their benefits. If you can afford a good standard of living we might not want to be giving you the winter fuel allowance for instance.

 

[Tak3n]

Yup, both would fuck me too. It's not really a shock though, is it?

I suppose not, but that is a big drop to take...

 

[Mr Git]

I actually can't watch Ian Duncan Smith. He genuinely makes my skin crawl

He's a very unpleasant man. He was recently up north at my friend's workplace, spotted him in a FB picture stood in front of a whiteboard which had explicit dos and don'ts for employment. Strangely, "do not fabricate CV" wasn't on there.

 

[kmag]

For the most part this is true, and is exactly why everyone of pension age should be means tested for their benefits. If you can afford a good standard of living we might not want to be giving you the winter fuel allowance for instance.

Means testing always costs more than you think. It adds a layer of complexity and delay which makes it unsuitable for some benefits. I think Winter Fuel allowance might be a decent candidate for means testing in terms of practicality, I just wonder if it would actually save any real money to make it worthwhile.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

I suppose not, but that is a big drop to take...

And an even bigger drop to take for all those families in a worse situation than yours, who'll be genuinely struggling to provide for the children and themselves.

Spoiler

This a not particularly subtle hint that you shouldn't vote Conservative.

 

[Saiyar]

It's child benefit, disability benefit, and housing benefit they'll hit. Too many Conservative voters are on the state pension to really fuck with it at anything more than surface level, but I'm expecting especially child benefit to see some pretty hefty hits.

They won't touch disability or housing benefit either since a big chunk of that goes to pensioners as well.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

They won't touch disability or housing benefit either since a big chunk of that goes to pensioners as well.

They'll hit the parts that don't, probably by tightening up the qualifications except insofar as those qualifications favour old people.

 

[Goodlife]

Anyone voting Tory and being surprised or upset that their benefits will go down should look at the numbers posted earlier.

It is not possible to take another £12 billion from the benefits system without touching child benefit or the state pension. We just don't give out enough to the poor, disabled and jobless to make that type of saving. Given how there's absolutely no way the conservatives will touch pensions, you have to expect a hit on the universal benefits. Now you might be fine with that - in the same way I don't object to the higher rates of tax I pay, but it's absolutely going to have to happen.

It's just a numbers game at this point.

No, it's just £1 from every £100 of government spending. That's all, don't worry, nobody will even notice it....

Or something like that

 

[kmag]

No, it's just £1 from every £100 of government spending. That's all, don't worry, nobody will even notice it....

Or something like that

I love that little campaign line from the Tories, it all sounds so much more reasonable than 14%-16% of unprotected spending.

 

[PJV3]

Imagine the sex. Imagine it.

This is the sickest filth imaginable, it's Broadmoor for you if you don't control your bizarre sexual appetites.

 

[CCS]

They won't touch disability or housing benefit either since a big chunk of that goes to pensioners as well.

Not really true, they've already fucked over disabled people severely.

 

[jimbobsmells]

If you dont like the consequences of voting for a particular party, then why vote for them?
I don't understand the reasoning of 'I always vote for X or Y'.

 

[Tak3n]

IDS on bedroom tax...

he said it fair as 50,000 people have now moved to smaller properties.... also he claimed the most weird thing

he basically said the government would of been sued if they had not done the bedroom tax, as it already existed in private sector

 

[CyclopsRock]

On the other hand, you're statistically more likely to be wealthy than any other demographic. I also think you're severely overestimating the extent to which most families can be flexible in response to things like child benefit alterations.

Well everyone spends the money they get, eh.

 

[QuicheFontaine]

FFS

even though I am a tory voter they are making it hard, not only did they cost us £800 when they slash working tax credits to 25K a year, on polictics show just now Rachel Reeves said they are going to means test child benefit down to 30K a year...

Ian Duncan Smith did not deny it

squeezed middle is a real thing

Not really related to what you're talking about (other than getting fucked over and I need to vent), but I recently realised I'm going to have to pay £500 in 'NHS Surcharge' at my wife's visa renewal in a couple of months. The visa is £650, now I've got to add another £500.

£500 :-(

 

[King_Moc]

IDS on bedroom tax...

he said it fair as 50,000 people have now moved to smaller properties.... also he claimed the most weird thing

he basically said the government would of been sued if they had not done the bedroom tax, as it already existed in private sector

Just read that. Would love an explanation as to what he meant.

 

[liquidtmd]

IDS on bedroom tax...

he said it fair as 50,000 people have now moved to smaller properties.... also he claimed the most weird thing

he basically said the government would of been sued if they had not done the bedroom tax, as it already existed in private sector

Wait, what?

 

[Tak3n]

Just read that. Would love an explanation as to what he meant.

someone just tweeted that it is a lie, and said this

"He's lying, it applies to pensioners in private sector but not in public."

but I still can not see how the government could of been sued for not implementing it


https://twitter.com/Rob_Merrick/status/595584223081308160

 

[Par Score]

Not sure Saville is really what you could call a Party Political Issue

Tell that to the Daily Mail.

There's a reason why all their attacks are focussed on Savile's relationship with the BBC, and not with Thatcher and the 80's Tory government. I'm pretty sure Blair never invited him to spend New Year's at Chequers.

 

[King_Moc]

someone just tweeted that it is a lie, and said this

"He's lying, it applies to pensioners in private sector but not in public."

but I still can not see how the government could of been sued for not implementing it


https://twitter.com/Rob_Merrick/status/595584223081308160

Yeah, would make no sense. Like saying the private sector could be sued for not offering to sell properties at 80% of their value because of right to buy.

 

[Tak3n]

If you dont like the consequences of voting for a particular party, then why vote for them?
I don't understand the reasoning of 'I always vote for X or Y'.

I use to vote Labour, I switched after the 1997 (which I voted labour) as I use to run a warehouse 2003 and no joke I could never get any of my forklift guys to do a jot of overtime, all I ever got was that they could not earn over xx amount because of tax credits...

and I thought at the time this is the craziest system

 

[Tak3n]

Yeah, would make no sense. Like saying the private sector could be sued for not offering to sell properties at 80% of their value because of right to buy.

agreed I am still on the bench of that is one of the stupidest things I have heard a senior politician say

 

[CyclopsRock]

Tell that to the Daily Mail.

There's a reason why all their attacks are focussed on Savile's relationship with the BBC, and not with Thatcher and the 80's Tory government. I'm pretty sure Blair never invited him to spend New Year's at Chequers.

Well yeah, I don't think that's a fair comparison since the charge against the BBC is that they actively aided in covering it up for decades, where as the politicians aren't accused of much more than being celebrity-obsessed bores.

 

[Hellers]

According to the Guardian live blog Newsnight reckons if we'd got AV during the referendum the Tories would be 30 seats up.

I did a little lol at that.

 

[Deleted member 231381]

According to the Guardian live blog Newsnight reckons if we'd got AV during the referendum the Tories would be 30 seats up.

I did a little lol at that.

Almost certainly, yeah. Labour would probably take a few seats back from the SNP from Unionist second preferences, and the Liberal Democrats in Con-Lib races might prove rather more resilient, but AV would be much more to the Conservative benefit this election.

 

[dalyr95]

FFS

even though I am a tory voter they are making it hard, not only did they cost us £800 when they slash working tax credits to 25K a year, on polictics show just now Rachel Reeves said they are going to means test child benefit down to 30K a year...

Ian Duncan Smith did not deny it

squeezed middle is a real thing

But your personal allowance has gone up, so surely you got money back via that?

Annual salary | Tax paid at 2014/15 rates | Tax under under proposed rates | Income tax saving

10,000 - - -
11,000 200 - 200
12,000 400 - 400
13,000 600 100 500
14,000 800 300 500
15,000 1,000 500 500
20,000 2,000 1,500 500
25,000 3,000 2,500 500
30,000 4,000 3,500 500
35,000 5,000 4,500 500
40,000 6,000 5,500 500
45,000 7,627 6,500 813
50,000 9,627 7,500 1,313

1. A one earner couple with two children earn £25,000. They would lose out on an extra £75.40 in child benefit and £420 in tax credits, including Child Tax Credit and Working Tax Credit. So they will not get an increase of £495.40 in total. But they will gain £500 from the increase in the personal allowance to £12,500, meaning an overall gain of £4.60.

2. A single person aged 30 is earning £12,000 a year, working over 30 hours a week. In 2017/18 they would lose out on an extra £120.00 in Working Tax Credit. But they will gain £400 from the increase in the personal allowance to £12,500, meaning a gain of £280.

3. A couple are both working earning £13,000 a year and have one child. Both of them are earning £13,000 a year, and both are working over 30 hours a week.
They lose out on an extra £44.20 a year in child benefit and £310 in child tax credit and working tax credit. So they will not get an increase of £354.20 in total. But they will gain £1,000 from the increase in the personal allowance to £12,500, meaning a gain of £645.80.

http://www.thisismoney.co.uk/money/...-better-rise-personal-allowance-40p-band.html

Admittedly they are based on the Tory maifesto promise, but they've raised the personal allowance to from £6k to £10,500 already.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personal_allowance

 

[jimbobsmells]

I use to vote Labour, I switched after the 1997 (which I voted labour) as I use to run a warehouse 2003 and no joke I could never get any of my forklift guys to do a jot of overtime, all I ever got was that they could not earn over xx amount because of tax credits...

and I thought at the time this is the craziest system

Yeah I agree if the system in place actively discourages people from working then that's totally wrong.

This wouldn't be the same tax credits as in your other post, would it? Sorry I'm not clued up on this stuff.

even though I am a tory voter they are making it hard, not only did they cost us £800 when they slash working tax credits to 25K a year, on polictics show just now Rachel Reeves said they are going to means test child benefit down to 30K a year...

 

[Crispy75]

Tax Credits are (seem to me to be) just a subsidy to business to keep wages down.

 

[jimbobsmells]

1. A one earner couple with two children earn £25,000. They would lose out on an extra £75.40 in child benefit and £420 in tax credits, including Child Tax Credit and Working Tax Credit. So they will not get an increase of £495.40 in total. But they will gain £500 from the increase in the personal allowance to £12,500, meaning an overall gain of £4.60.

2. A single person aged 30 is earning £12,000 a year, working over 30 hours a week. In 2017/18 they would lose out on an extra £120.00 in Working Tax Credit. But they will gain £400 from the increase in the personal allowance to £12,500, meaning a gain of £280.

3. A couple are both working earning £13,000 a year and have one child. Both of them are earning £13,000 a year, and both are working over 30 hours a week.
They lose out on an extra £44.20 a year in child benefit and £310 in child tax credit and working tax credit. So they will not get an increase of £354.20 in total. But they will gain £1,000 from the increase in the personal allowance to £12,500, meaning a gain of £645.80.

Hooray! Everyone's a winner!

 

[pulsemyne]

Fuck me they are desperate now
"WTF? £100 for your positive Tory story? @TheSunNewspaper perilously close to trying to buy votes this election"

 

[Deleted member 231381]

Fairly blatant, yeah.

 

[King_Moc]

Fuck me they are desperate now
"WTF? £100 for your positive Tory story? @TheSunNewspaper perilously close to trying to buy votes this election"

Evenhanded, balanced journalism.

 

[RedShift]

Fuck me they are desperate now
"WTF? £100 for your positive Tory story? @TheSunNewspaper perilously close to trying to buy votes this election"

Note to self: renew hunt for Murdoch's horcruxes.

 

[Miles Quaritch]

The before 3pm deadline is so ridiculously blatant in its intent.

Will anyone bother to report on it?

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Murduch is scared as fuck it seems.