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Metal Gear Community Thread |OT2| © 2015 Konami Digital Entertainment

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Shy

Member
The thing of it is, the gaming industry shouldn't be looked to as any kind of moral authority on anything. Sure, it's ok to criticize the gaming industry, express disappointment, etc... But I find all of it to be rather silly.
It has nothing to with looking at the games industry as a moral authority. it's about not having to feel embarrassed by an industry where all the stories feel like they're written by a bunch of five year olds smashing their fists on their keyboards.

Yes, literature and cinema have poorly written stories, but it's a much lower percentage compared to games.
I've never been bothered by the way the gaming industry has handled any kind of portrayal. It's up to the developers to decide how they want to express their visions, and regardless of how well they handle it, I respect that. If I find something to be terribly off putting, I won't buy it. Plain and simple.
There's tons of porn on the market that I find to be despicable, disgusting, and entirely wrong. But you know what? I choose not to look at it. There's plenty of music I find to be disgusting, but I choose not to listen to it. There's plenty of TV that I feel is terrible, but I don't care because I'm not forced to watch. Same for movies.
i'm not trying to stifle any creator's work. But artistic vision is not an immunity from criticism for something objectionable.

Portrayal is very important, and games, as one of the largest entertainment mediums, should be held to the same the same artistic standards as any other medium.
Regardless whether you agree or not, entertainment (games, music, movies etc) can and does reinforce negative portrayals of groups (minorities etc) and they don't have the luxury of just not engaging with it.
I'm genuinely confused as to why people really care. Who cares how mature the medium is? I don't get it.
Because i care passionately the medium and want to see it become truly great.
 

Sn4ke_911

If I ever post something in Japanese which I don't understand, please BAN me.
No chopper pic again? Well fuck, what am I paying you for, Kojima?

Kojima?!

KOJIMAAAAAAAAARGHHHGHGH 25 MORE WEEKS OMFG GOD HELP US ALL

Well, I was thinking about this. They gotta bug test stuff that hasn't been revealed yet. So that's probably the reason why we didn't get a new pic for days now.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
It has nothing to with looking at the games industry as a moral authority. it's about not having to feel embarrassed by an industry where all the stories feel like they're written by a bunch of five year olds smashing their fists on their keyboards.

Yes, literature and cinema have poorly written stories, but it's a much lower percentage compared to games.


i'm not trying to stifle any creator's work. But artistic vision is not an immunity from criticism for something objectionable.

Portrayal is very important, and games, as one of the largest entertainment mediums, should be held to the same the same artistic standards as any other medium.
Regardless whether you agree or not, entertainment (games, music, movies etc) can and does reinforce negative portrayals of groups (minorities etc) and they don't have the luxury of just not engaging with it.

Because i care passionately the medium and want to see it become truly great.

Really well put.

Further:

The thing of it is, the gaming industry shouldn't be looked to as any kind of moral authority on anything. Sure, it's ok to criticize the gaming industry, express disappointment, etc... But I find all of it to be rather silly.

No one is asking video games to be a moral authority, though, I assume they're asking for some developers to be a little more conscious of their audience. This isn't a niche market for white, Western, male, teenagers anymore.

With expanding budgets come expanding demographics and with that expanding discussions about representation. It's quite normal for a medium to go through this stage. It doesn't mean you'll lose anything. No one is trying to censor anything, they are commenting on things they find problematic.

I've never been bothered by the way the gaming industry has handled any kind of portrayal.

No one is asking you to be.

I think instead of asking "why do you care", the real question should be "why should I care".

You don't have to agree with all or any complaints, I certainly don't. But, it's easy enough for me to see these things from another's point of view and say to myself: "You know what? I think I might feel uncomfortable too if I were X." That's as far as you ever need to go.
 

Skullface

Member
It has nothing to with looking at the games industry as a moral authority. it's about not having to feel embarrassed by an industry where all the stories feel like they're written by a bunch of five year olds smashing their fists on their keyboards.

I'm sorry that you feel embarrassed by the games industry. The way I see it, that's not my or your cross to bear. If there's shame or embarrassment that's rightfully due, it should be those involved in the making the games that feel it. If you truly are embarrassed by playing these games, I really don't understand why you continue to play them. If I felt ashamed after playing a game, or reading a book in a series, I simply wouldn't continue to support this hypothetical franchise.

Yes, literature and cinema have poorly written stories, but it's a much lower percentage compared to games.

There's no debate here, you are absolutely correct. However, I'm more concerned about gameplay and fun factor in a video game than I am about the quality of its story. A well written story is a plus, but I'm never expecting The Godfather going in to any game. If that's your expectation, I fear you'll be disappointed for many more years to come.

i'm not trying to stifle any creator's work. But artistic vision is not an immunity from criticism for something objectionable.

I agree. But I think a lot of these criticisms that arise as of late are due most in part to a person's sensibilities being hurt more so than an utter lack of quality. But again, if this is the case, I don't know why you or anyone else would continue to support a franchise that offends you or that you feel is of subpar quality

Portrayal is very important, and games, as one of the largest entertainment mediums, should be held to the same the same artistic standards as any other medium.
Regardless whether you agree or not, entertainment (games, music, movies etc) can and does reinforce negative portrayals of groups (minorities etc) and they don't have the luxury of just not engaging with it.

As a sociology major, I disagree that portrayal in videogames is anywhere near as important as you're making it out to be. Particularly in a game like the Phantom Pain that's targeted towards adults. Adults are supposed to know the difference between a fictional portrayal and reality. Sometimes reality is simply less interesting. If we're talking about kids games, maybe portrayal is a little more important. I say "maybe" because we're talking about digital people. When real humans are shown acting in a certain way, it's much more impactful. In the same way that there's no conclusive evidence that violent videogames encourage violent behavior, there's no conclusive evidence that showing that videogames encourage racism.

Because i care passionately the medium and want to see it become truly great.

It's pretty clear to me that the state of the video game industry is far more personal to you than it is to me, so I don't really see us agreeing on much. To me, videogames as a medium were truly great during the 5th generation. Along comes gen 6 and things start to become politicized. It's difficult to come up with unique and interesting material when there's so much pressure to pander to so many sensitive expectations.

We got into this debate by discussing how race portrayal will factor in to PP. Here's what makes this over all debate difficult; When the game finally releases, there will be people that praise how racial conflict was handled. There will people who thought it was awful. There will be people like me that really don't care one way or the other. Who's right? What's the clearly defined standard?
 
We got into this debate by discussing how race portrayal will factor in to PP. Here's what makes this over all debate difficult; When the game finally releases, there will be people that praise how racial conflict was handled.There will people who thought it was awful. There will be people like me that really don't care one way or the other. Who's right? What's the clearly defined standard?

You and me both, brother. Que the implied rape, sexism and tons of other things that people find offensive or "why is it not in there?" threads when it's not the developer's intention of such and such.
 

Skullface

Member
No one is asking video games to be a moral authority, though, I assume they're asking for some developers to be a little more conscious of their audience. This isn't a niche market for white, Western, male, teenagers anymore.

As to the bolded point, I think you're wrong. There are folks that argue that developers need to take responsibility and take a leadership position when it comes to portrayal and characterization. To that, (and I know you're not arguing this point) I say get a clue. It's a business and a form of fictional art. Developers are free to create their vision as they see fit, while at the same time making decisions that they feel will help to sell their games best.

While it's not a niche market anymore, I think that those who weigh in on these issues are the outspoken minority. I doubt that there is anyone that knows an audience and demographic better than publishers.

With expanding budgets come expanding demographics and with that expanding discussions about representation. It's quite normal for a medium to go through this stage. It doesn't mean you'll lose anything. No one is trying to censor anything, they are commenting on things they find problematic.

I think it's silly to find anything truly problematic with a video game, unless we're talking gameplay here. Like I said in my response to Shy, I preferred gaming during the 5th generation when there weren't so many people crying foul about various thing (just so we're clear, I'm not using the phrase "crying foul" to imply that anyone is literally crying). I also think that the overall quantity of quality games has taken a hit due in large part to focus on story and cinematically over gameplay. It's what a lot of people wanted for the future, though. Now that the future is now the present, the issue is representation and characterization. Call me a cranky old man, but I long for the days when these were non issues

No one is asking you to be.

I never said that anyone was asking me to be. I was simply explaining my position.


You don't have to agree with all or any complaints, I certainly don't. But, it's easy enough for me to see these things from another's point of view and say to myself: "You know what? I think I might feel uncomfortable too if I were X." That's as far as you ever need to go.

Here's what I don't get. The GTA games have made me feel uncomfortable ever since GTA3. So I don't buy them. I also don't complain about them either. So why, if you feel continually abused by a franchise, would you continue to support it?

You and me both, brother. Que the implied rape, sexism and tons of other things that people find offensive or "why is it not in there?" threads when it's not the developer's intention of such and such.

I hear you. But you know what? I'm locking myself in a room for like, a month straight when PP comes out and staying away from all forums until I 100% it lol I am not getting spoiled or getting involved with other people's complaints at that point

i'm about to go to bed, but i'm gonna respond to your post later tonight Skullface.

It's all good Shy, get some rest man. It's the AM where I am and I just got to work. I appreciate your well thought out reply to my earlier post.
 

Macrotus

Member
Is anyone aware of the rumour that Kojima Production might disband after MGS 5?
The rumour started popping up today and I was wondering if there is a thread for it.

For example, the Koji-Pro logo is gone from the official MGS website.
The Koji-Pro Twitter account is going to be deleted and as moving to a metal gear_jp account.
And lastely Kojimas name is gone from the Konami Personnels list.

Has any website put up an article about this?
I hope this isn't true...
 

brau

Member
Is anyone aware of the rumour that Kojima Production might disband after MGS 5?
The rumour started popping up today and I was wondering if there is a thread for it.

For example, the Koji-Pro logo is gone from the official MGS website.
The Koji-Pro Twitter account is going to be deleted and as moving to a metal gear_jp account.
And lastely Kojimas name is gone from the Konami Personnels list.

Has any website put up an article about this?
I hope this isn't true...

but they are working on Silent Hills.

=\
 

NeoGiff

Member
Is anyone aware of the rumour that Kojima Production might disband after MGS 5?
The rumour started popping up today and I was wondering if there is a thread for it.

For example, the Koji-Pro logo is gone from the official MGS website.
The Koji-Pro Twitter account is going to be deleted and as moving to a metal gear_jp account.
And lastely Kojimas name is gone from the Konami Personnels list.

Has any website put up an article about this?
I hope this isn't true...

I saw this too and didn't make a thread because I presumed someone was already on it. I'm surprised no one has yet, to be quite honest.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
As to the bolded point, I think you're wrong. There are folks that argue that developers need to take responsibility and take a leadership position when it comes to portrayal and characterization.

Straw man aside, we may have a differing understanding of what 'Moral Authority' actually means. Asking for better representation in some games does not put the developer in such a position.

It's a business and a form of fictional art. Developers are free to create their vision as they see fit, while at the same time making decisions that they feel will help to sell their games best.

I'd argue that it is the latter that is all that's important these days. Since their demographics are widening, it would make good business sense to offer better representation, surely?

While it's not a niche market anymore, I think that those who weigh in on these issues are the outspoken minority.

The issues are usually about minority representation so that's a given.

I think it's silly to find anything truly problematic with a video game, unless we're talking gameplay here.

What's the difference between problematic and truly problematic? Where do games like 'Ethnic Cleansing' or 'Cluster's Revenge' fall...?

Like I said in my response to Shy, I preferred gaming during the 5th generation when there weren't so many people crying foul about various thing (just so we're clear, I'm not using the phrase "crying foul" to imply that anyone is literally crying).

As much as people don't have to play or support games they take offense at, you don't have to listen to the complaints.

I also think that the overall quantity of quality games has taken a hit due in large part to focus on story and cinematically over gameplay.

Is it ironic that you are complaining about the focus on story and cinematics in an MGS thread, arguably the game that kickstarted that trend (in b4 "MGS focuses on the gameplay as well")?

I disagree though. Frankly, that's a hugely insular, simplistic and borderline solipsistic view of the industry that boils down to: "I don't like cinematic/story focused games, so the quality of gaming has gone down".

If there were a dip in quality in gaming overall, it would be due to a number of factors, including:

a) Nostalgia/Selective memory - everything was better back when you were a kid.

b) The increased number of games released - statistically, more games means more shit.

c) Increased budgets - having to recoup costs means developers have to make compromises particularly when creating mechanics.

d) Shorter development cycles - To fit into marketing and business strategy, games need to hit certain quarters and dates to maximise sales (see point C), even at the expense of quality.

It's what a lot of people wanted for the future, though. Now that the future is now the present, the issue is representation and characterization. Call me a cranky old man, but I long for the days when these were non issues

But they are issues for some people. Why is that so hard to accept? You don't have to agree with them, just empathise a little.

I never said that anyone was asking me to be. I was simply explaining my position.

It was a figure of speech. You don't need to be bothered about portrayals in videogames, you just need to accept that other people are, and that it's okay for them to be.

Here's what I don't get. The GTA games have made me feel uncomfortable ever since GTA3. So I don't buy them. I also don't complain about them either. So why, if you feel continually abused by a franchise, would you continue to support it?

Can't you see the logical minefield you're walking? Why don't you ignore the complaints that annoy you, as you advise complainers to ignore the games that offend them...?
 

strafer

member
This thread is about to get fired up.

Kojima leaves.

What the fuck is going to happen. Do they expect The Phantom Pain to bomb?
 

brau

Member
68GOTH3.png


wth is going on?
 

Skullface

Member
Straw man aside, we may have a differing understanding of what 'Moral Authority' actually means. Asking for better representation in some games does not put the developer in such a position.

What strawman? I freely admit that this wasn't a point that anyone was arguing. More of a peeve of mine. Also, this debate started with Shy as to whether or not the race theme would be addressed in an acceptable manner, not over representation. But if you want to discuss representation, I have no real feeling on the issue. I don't care one way or the other.

I'd argue that it is the latter that is all that's important these days. Since their demographics are widening, it would make good business sense to offer better representation, surely?

Not if it means potentially alienating your majority base


The issues are usually about minority representation so that's a given.

Right, while the silent majority is OK or apathetic about current portrayal and characterization


What's the difference between problematic and truly problematic? Where do games like 'Ethnic Cleansing' or 'Cluster's Revenge' fall...?

When it comes to artistic expression there is no such thing as problematic, at least not in a country where free speech exists

As much as people don't have to play or support games they take offense at, you don't have to listen to the complaints.

While you're correct, this is a debate that was initiated by elder's question about if any upset caused by the Paz tapes were justifiable or if it's just a few folks being over sensitive. In my opinion, I believe people that are genuinely upset are being over sensitive. Make of that what you will, but I simply can't empathize with someone who allows themselves to be vocally upset because of a videogame, or fiction in general.

Is it ironic that you are complaining about the focus on story and cinematics in an MGS thread, arguably the game that kickstarted that trend (in b4 "MGS focuses on the gameplay as well")?

I'm aware of this, but I'm excited that we're going from a cutscene oriented cinematic experience to a gameplay oriented sandbox. I can see the irony in it, but what's your point?

I disagree though. Frankly, that's a hugely insular, simplistic and borderline solipsistic view of the industry that boils down to: "I don't like cinematic/story focused games, so the quality of gaming has gone down".

It is an over simplification, being that I was trying to keep up with being tagteamed and I'm responding on my cellphone, but that is pretty much the gist of it. Although you have a means of twisting words to favor your argument with your reinterpreted quotes. That's a poor debate method

"If there were a dip in quality in gaming overall, it would be due to a number of factors, including:

a) Nostalgia/Selective memory - everything was better back when you were a kid.

b) The increased number of games released - statistically, more games means more shit.

c) Increased budgets - having to recoup costs means developers have to make compromises particularly when creating mechanics.

d) Shorter development cycles - To fit into marketing and business strategy, games need to hit certain quarters and dates to maximise sales (see point C), even at the expense of quality."

I'm not even sure what to say to this, other than that I can give you a litany of games that I enjoyed during the 5th generation of gaming, and short lists from gen 6 to current that get shorter for each successive generation

But they are issues for some people. Why is that so hard to accept? You don't have to agree with them, just empathise a little.

Not only do I not have to agree with them, I don't have to empathize either. I just can't empathize with someone who finds themselves genuinely offended by a work of fiction. Before you bring up GTA with me on this point, I was never offended by the game. Just made to be slightly uncomfortable, enough to the point where I decided it wasn't my thing.


It was a figure of speech. You don't need to be bothered about portrayals in videogames, you just need to accept that other people are, and that it's okay for them to be.

It's not simply a figure of speech. It's a dismissive debate tactic. Truthfully, I'll never accept that someone will allow themselves to be bothered by videogames. In the grand scheme of life, I think that there are more important things. At least to me.


Can't you see the logical minefield you're walking? Why don't you ignore the complaints that annoy you, as you advise complainers to ignore the games that offend them...?

I'm not walking any such logical minefield. I do ignore the complaints that annoy me. If you check out my posting history, you'll see that the only place I've adressed these topics are here in the past day or two with you and Shy.
 

Screaming Meat

Unconfirmed Member
What strawman? I freely admit that this wasn't a point that anyone was arguing. More of a peeve of mine. Also, this debate started with Shy as to whether or not the race theme would be addressed in an acceptable manner, not over representation. But if you want to discuss representation, I have no real feeling on the issue. I don't care one way or the other.

Race and representation are very obviously linked.

Not if it means potentially alienating your majority base

Why do you feel better representation would alienate the majority fanbase...?

Right, while the silent majority is OK or apathetic about current portrayal and characterization

How do you know when they remain silent...?


When it comes to artistic expression there is no such thing as problematic, at least not in a country where free speech exists

Games are very rarely Art. The majority are product.

Free Speech doesn't give you free reign to say what you like without being criticised.


While you're correct, this is a debate that was initiated by elder's question about if any upset caused by the Paz tapes were justifiable or if it's just a few folks being over sensitive. In my opinion, I believe people that are genuinely upset are being over sensitive. Make of that what you will, but I simply can't empathize with someone who allows themselves to be vocally upset because of a videogame, or fiction in general.

How can you tell people are "genuinely" upset about it rather than simply uncomfortable?

I'm aware of this, but I'm excited that we're going from a cutscene oriented cinematic experience to a gameplay oriented sandbox. I can see the irony in it, but what's your point?

Highlighting the inherent contradiction.

I'm not even sure what to say to this, other than that I can give you a litany of games that I enjoyed during the 5th generation of gaming, and short lists from gen 6 to current that get shorter for each successive generation

Anecdotal. This backs up what I said about your view of gaming as a whole being rather myopic. A game isn't inherently worse in quality if it focuses on story.

Not only do I not have to agree with them, I don't have to empathize either. I just can't empathize with someone who finds themselves genuinely offended by a work of fiction.

Again, how do you know they are "genuinely" offended and not simply expressing an opinion because what they are playing makes them feel uncomfortable?

Before you bring up GTA with me on this point, I was never offended by the game. Just made to be slightly uncomfortable, enough to the point where I decided it wasn't my thing.

Maybe that's how others feel about the games they are criticising? Maybe the internet distorts and amplifies opinions through the lens of whoever is on the other end's subjective reading of the text? You know, like how you took my joke in the wrong way.

It's not simply a figure of speech. It's a dismissive debate tactic.

We'll agree to disagree, mate.

Truthfully, I'll never accept that someone will allow themselves to be bothered by videogames. In the grand scheme of life, I think that there are more important things. At least to me.

Simply because people are bothered by certain aspects of gaming that they indulge in, potentially frequently, doesn't mean it's the most important issue in the world to them. We are, after all, on a videogame forum.

I'm not walking any such logical minefield. I do ignore the complaints that annoy me. If you check out my posting history, you'll see that the only place I've adressed these topics are here in the past day or two with you and Shy.

Why do they bother you so much if you're ignoring them?
 

Skullface

Member
Race and representation are very obviously linked.

Wrong. In PP, we're talking about race as a theme. It's a little different


Why do you feel better representation would alienate the majority fanbase...?

This would need to be a separate discussion in and of itself. When you change something that a majority enjoys to accommodate something a minority demographic, you have a good chance of alienating a few people in between



How do you know when they remain silent...?

Again, this would require it's own separate discussion


Games are very rarely Art. The majority are product.

Who decides whether or not a game is art? I consider most games to be art.

Free Speech doesn't give you free reign to say what you like without being criticised.

I never said it did. What I said was that neither of these games were problematic. You could argue otherwise, but I disagree.

How can you tell people are "genuinely" upset about it rather than simply uncomfortable?

When you see users in forums or blogs explain that they're "pissed" I'd say that's a step beyond "uncomfortable"



Anecdotal. This backs up what I said about your view of gaming as a whole being rather myopic. A game isn't inherently worse in quality if it focuses on story.

How would you measure the quality of games? Graphics? What? I still think that big budget games of today have lost something compared to the 5th generation. The whole reason this comes up is because I consider that to be an industry peak. Opinion? Sure


Maybe that's how others feel about the games they are criticising? Maybe the internet distorts and amplifies opinions through the lens of whoever is on the other end's subjective reading of the text? You know, like how you took my joke in the wrong way.

Perhaps you're right. But then we have figures like Anita Sarkeesian.


Simply because people are bothered by certain aspects of gaming that they indulge in, potentially frequently, doesn't mean it's the most important issue in the world to them. We are, after all, on a videogame forum.

Anita Sarkeesian. No, but really, I wasn't speaking specifically about GAF.



Why do they bother you so much if you're ignoring them?

It's more of a pet peeve and less of a bother. If you visit any forum that's gaming related or that happens to discuss games, you'll come across folks with rustled jimmies over certain aspects of nearly every game released over the past 5 years.
 

Lernaean

Banned
If someone told me in 2014, that on March 2015 Capcom would release one of the best RE games ever, Nintendo would go mobile and Konami would disband KojiPro and erase Kojima's name from his games, I'd be like 'yeah, cool story bro!'
 
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