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[_Alkaline_]

I'm playing Echoes on my Trilogy disc these days (man, do I love Torvus Bog), trying to get a perfect score. Fantastic level design aside, when the remixed version of the "Brinstar Red Earth" theme from Super kicks in, you know it's all legit. I dunno if I can bring myself to finally 100% Corruption though, the rediculous amount of scans to collect in that game make the first two's log books look like nothing.

I might make an Echoes appreciation thread sometime soon. Been meaning to do it for a while. That game needs more love on these boards.

 

[Refugio]

He didn't make Fusion so I'm going to have to disagree entirely with that one.

That's cause he wasn't. Retro Gamer asked Sakamoto about Yokoi's involvement in an interview a couple of years ago. Aside from scolding the Producer of the game Makoto Kanoh whenever the project missed a deadline he wasn't really involved.

Read Super Metroid interviews and you'll see that the main designers were Sakamoto, Osawa, and Yamane. Sakamoto even calls Yamane the main designer or something of Super Metroid in that interview I think.

 

[Boney]

I straight-up refuse to get into another Other M debate, but this right here is factually wrong.

Go play Prime or Echoes with hints off and then come back here, look my avatar in the eye, and type this.

I think movement, lack of verticality and recognisable room design (this is pretty important in the original Metroid in my opinion) makes the Prime exploration very very different from it's predecesors. Personally, when I played them it basically consisted of checking the map and seeing all the rooms that came to a dead end and checking them to see if my new abilities would help me pass.

It's really similar to Castlevania in this regard, which I don't really think it's similar to Metroid at all.

Plus they have some pretty sick sequence breaking. Especially in Prime NTSC.

This is true and it's quite neat. It's a shame they took them out in all subsequent releases.

I dunno. As much as I like Metroid Other M, I have to say that the combat system felt like a Metroid-skinned wiimote-simplified version of Ninja Gaiden 2's obliteration technique (where you impair an enemy, get up close, press triangle/Y, cut off their head).

They're similar if you just compare the concept of obliteration technique and lethal strikes, but movement and interactions are quite different. Ryu is a goddamn cow compared to Samus and the focus on fending off enemies it's pretty different. NG2's system is better but I think this one fits quite nicely in it's context.

 

[etiolate]

I think movement, lack of verticality and recognisable room design (this is pretty important in the original Metroid in my opinion) makes the Prime exploration very very different from it's predecesors. Personally, when I played them it basically consisted of checking the map and seeing all the rooms that came to a dead end and checking them to see if my new abilities would help me pass.

You haven't actually played the Prime games have you? You've been bullshitting about this from day one, haven't you?

You start off with a general complaint--movement--and then lead into guesses at faults which aren't actually there. Prime is vertical and Echoes maybe even more so. Your summary of how you played is also a general vague statement to be applied to a Metroid game. It could be applied to nearly any Metroid game with a map.

 

[Ledsen]

God damn it this abortion of a game. I'm constantly reminded of the immense disappointment I felt as I played through it and it dawned on me exactly how bad it is. After Metroid Prime lived up to and even far surpassed the legacy of Super, I had some hope for Other M. Then it was released.

 

[fabricated backlash]

He didn't make Fusion so I'm going to have to disagree entirely with that one.

Fusion isn't even remotely on the level of sheer level design, atmosphere and gameplay excellence. It's a nice game and I liked it a lot, but it is also very simplistic and lacking in depth at the same time.

I can see how Fusion became the way it is, because of its handheld, short play session philosophy. In that regard it's pretty damn good.

God damn it this abortion of a game. I'm constantly reminded of the immense disappointment I felt as I played through it and it dawned on me exactly how bad it is. After Metroid Prime lived up to and even far surpassed the legacy of Super, I had some hope for Other M. Then it was released.

I actually played the game twice before putting it aside for some time. And I thought it was mediocre as a game, and horrible as a story...

then I played it a third time some weeks later and I started to hate every single aspect of it. The game is just an insult not only to Metroid but to modern game design as a whole. Let alone character portrayal in games post PS1 era.

It's probably the worst Nintendo produced game I've ever played.

 

[KevinCow]

The Prime games lack in recognizable room design?

...What?

One of the most impressive things about the Primes is how they made every room completely distinct. You could show me a picture of any room in the game, cover up the mini-map, and I'd probably still be able to tell you exactly where it is, what room all the doors lead to, and how to get to the nearest save station.

 

[Boney]

You haven't actually played the Prime games have you? You've been bullshitting about this from day one, haven't you?

You start off with a general complaint--movement--and then lead into guesses at faults which aren't actually there. Prime is vertical and Echoes maybe even more so. Your summary of how you played is also a general vague statement to be applied to a Metroid game. It could be applied to nearly any Metroid game with a map.

http://jansenprice.com/metroid/met5_mp/mp_3dmaps.html

http://xevious-solvalou.wifeo.com/images/Metroid-carte-du-jeu..png

They look pretty different to me but *shrugs* I dunno...

what other faults aren't there that I talk about.. combat? scanning?

And well, Super has a few instances were 180º turns going from map to map are necesary, but for the most part there's more going forward because the maps are just designed better. I'm a huge supporter of superior design in all 2d games versus 3d games, that's why Prime, 3D Mario and 3D Zelda are inferior to all of it's 2d counterparts.

And well seeing as both Fusion and Zero Mission are mission based for the most part it's hard to include them in my vague explanation.

I'm all in for discussion man, but you're being a huge baby (teehee) when it comes to discussion.

The Prime games lack in recognizable room design?

...What?

One of the most impressive things about the Primes is how they made every room completely distinct. You could show me a picture of any room in the game, cover up the mini-map, and I'd probably still be able to tell you exactly where it is, what room all the doors lead to, and how to get to the nearest save station.

Oh no, you're confused, I may have expressed myself badly, sorry I guess. It has incredible individual room design and they're instantly recognisable. There were 2 different points.

 

[[Nintex]]

When you first start playing it you kinda like it because it's new. The second time you start to see where it falls apart and the third time I didn't even bother after the first few minutes.

The main problems for me are:
- Boring and bland environments, the same hallways and textures repeated over and over again.
- Searching for 'something' in first person was horrible
- Easy as taking a shit, because you can dodge everything with the magic D-pad button

The game had some neat ideas to be sure but between ruining the DOA tag-mode, putting QTE's in pretty much every Ninja Gaiden 3 combo and finally the hackjob that is Metroid: Other M... Hayashi is such a terrible game designer. I think Nintendo lost interest at some point as well. It was announced with a trailer at E3. Nothing for months, a site with some music pops up, big blowout of media, small delay to salvage the mess and finally the bomba, I mean release.

 

[Ledsen]

The Prime games lack in recognizable room design?

...What?

One of the most impressive things about the Primes is how they made every room completely distinct. You could show me a picture of any room in the game, cover up the mini-map, and I'd probably still be able to tell you exactly where it is, what room all the doors lead to, and how to get to the nearest save station.

Exactly. Prime probably has the most recognizable environment designs I've seen in any game.

 

[Effect]

Edit: NM. See the topic was covered in post a page or so back. Didn't see it before. Was asking about the backlash and if Nintendo had finally responded to it.

 

[Deleted member 30609]

I think movement, lack of verticality and recognisable room design (this is pretty important in the original Metroid in my opinion) makes the Prime exploration very very different from it's predecesors. Personally, when I played them it basically consisted of checking the map and seeing all the rooms that came to a dead end and checking them to see if my new abilities would help me pass.

It's really similar to Castlevania in this regard, which I don't really think it's similar to Metroid at all.

you're out of your mind.

 

[Boney]

you're out of your mind.

uhhhh they're not recognisable then?

Retro probably had the most talented team of artists way back when. They did an outstanding job in that regard.

Maybe I'll bold. They are recognisable, unlike the original Metroid, that's why they are different. Sweet jesus christ people, it's like you only read what you only wanna read.

 

[Ledsen]

uhhhh they're not recognisable then?

Retro probably had the most talented team of artists way back when. They did an outstanding job in that regard.

Maybe I'll bold. They are recognisable, unlike the original Metroid, that's why they are different. Sweet jesus christ people, it's like you only read what you only wanna read.

No it's like your grammar is wrong if that's what you wanted to say. Or at least very easily misunderstood.

 

[CrystalGemini]

Grammatically, your verb "lack" was followed by a list of two, so people will read the clause after "and" as tying back to the "lack" verb.

I hope that helps with the English. It is a pretty wonk language.

Still, the games don't lack vertical structure. The exploration feel of Prime and Super are pretty close. Metroid had a repeating set of areas, like an extended torus level design which can create the sense of similarity, but the areas were individually discernible at some level.

 

[robor]

Fusion isn't even remotely on the level of sheer level design, atmosphere and gameplay excellence. It's a nice game and I liked it a lot, but it is also very simplistic and lacking in depth at the same time.

I can see how Fusion became the way it is, because of its handheld, short play session philosophy. In that regard it's pretty damn good.

You're right, it isn't. It's way above it.

 

[DragonGirl]

Fusion, frankly, was my least favorite Metroid prior to Other M's release. I disliked how the game corralled me rather than letting me freely explore and the story, specifically the characterization of Samus bugged me. I grew worried when I learned the same man would be writing the plot for Other M...

On the other hand, the SA-X encounters were wonderfully intense. On the other, other hand, I hated the garish, covered in bubblegum look of the Fusion Suit.

 

[fabricated backlash]

You're right, it isn't. It's way above it.

Care to elaborate? Cause I simply can't see how Fusion is better in any objective criteria.

 

[Mael]

I suggest you play it again then and get lost in the infinity of awful designed levels and samey hallways.

Why would you suggest he submit himself to another horrible playthrough of Other M?

Let's just hope they won't miss the 30th birthday of Metroid :/

 

[Ollie Pooch]

I'm playing Echoes on my Trilogy disc these days (man, do I love Torvus Bog), trying to get a perfect score. Fantastic level design aside, when the remixed version of the "Brinstar Red Earth" theme from Super kicks in, you know it's all legit. I dunno if I can bring myself to finally 100% Corruption though, the rediculous amount of scans to collect in that game make the first two's log books look like nothing.

The best moment in all the Prime games, for me.

 

[robor]

Care to elaborate? Cause I simply can't see how Fusion is better in any objective criteria.

I was exaggerating when I said "way". I love Super Metroid, but I love Metroid Fusion more.

You can't see it because you're bounded by your personal tastes just as I am mine.

 

[fabricated backlash]

I was exaggerating when I said "way". I love Super Metroid, but I love Metroid Fusion more.

You can't see it because you're bounded by your personal tastes just as I am mine.

Fusion has less content, simplified/dumbed down gameplay, is more linear, shorter, uses handholding for about the whole game, the sound isn't anywhere near as good.. there are criteria one can use to examine both games independently of taste.

I guess I have to also add that I am convinced that Super Metroid would never be as good a handheld title as Fusion is. And vice versa.

 

[robor]

Fusion has less content, simplified/dumbed down gameplay, is more linear, shorter, uses handholding for about the whole game, the sound isn't anywhere near as good.. there are criteria one can use to examine both games independently of taste.

Except that every single thing (other than linearity [which again seems like a complete cop out to degrade something]) you said is completely bias to an opinion.

 

[fabricated backlash]

Except that every single thing (other than linearity [which again seems like a complete cop out to degrade something]) you said is completely bias to an opinion.

So less content, worse sound and less detailed graphics is a biased opinion... sure.

 

[grandjedi6]

Let's just hope they won't miss the 30th birthday of Metroid :/

Of course they will, because then it will be Zelda's 30th birthday too! Metroid just picked an awful year to be born; doomed to always play second-fiddle to its more popular brother.

 

[Unicorn]

So less content, worse sound and less detailed graphics is a biased opinion... sure.

Worse sound could be opinion if you didn't like the music. Detailed graphics isn't an argument either. Fusion was detailed. Maybe you didn't like the art style, and that's valid, for opinion.

I liked Fusion, but it did feel a lot more linear than Super Metroid. It took place on a ship, so it's not like exploring a planet like Super, so yeah, it'll be more linear because of that.

 

[Nessus]

I recommend taking a break for a week, and then coming back, possibly starting a new game. For some reason, after I had a really negative first impression, I took a break from the game for a month or so, came back to it, started a new game, and found it to be pleasantly fast paced and enjoyable, as I already knew the controls.


I dunno. As much as I like Metroid Other M, I have to say that the combat system felt like a Metroid-skinned wiimote-simplified version of Ninja Gaiden 2's obliteration technique (where you impair an enemy, get up close, press triangle/Y, cut off their head).

It may be simplistic, but damn do you feel powerful once you really learn how to use dodge properly.

That mini boss on the elevator took me so many tries, but it forced me to finally learn the combat system.

 

[robor]

So less content, worse sound and less detailed graphics is a biased opinion... sure.

Woah you missed out on gameplay too right? Oh wait that IS bias to an opinion. And now we're judging a game by it's limitations due to the hardware it was designed for? Thanks for wasting my time.

Though I don't see the less detailed graphics critique at all.

*edit* No wait, I also can't hear the worse sound critique either.

 

[Nessus]

Maybe I'll bold. They are recognisable, unlike the original Metroid, that's why they are different.

Super Metroid, on the whole, had pretty recognizable rooms.

And I don't really care if Metroid Prime isn't like the original Metroid, as the NES Metroid is the weakest game in the series (aside from Hunters).

 

[Mael]

Of course they will, because then it will be Zelda's 30th birthday too! Metroid just picked an awful year to be born; doomed to always play second-fiddle to its more popular brother.

Actually I'm more sure that it has to do with the tepid performance of its last installment.
After all they did some pretty nice thing for the revival of the series (and by that I mean it trounces what the hell they're doing with Starfox now).
Funny that now that they're turning toward the 'hardcore' they totally forget one of the most beloved series they have...
That or NoA just blows.

 

[robor]

Other M has one thing going for it: the camera system and it's use of object transparency.

I hope devs take some inspiration from that.

 

[Mael]

Other M has one thing going for it: the camera system and it's use of object transparency.

I hope devs take some inspiration from that.

Awesome it's now on par with some n64 fighters!
I don't get the praise for the camera system, most early 3d ps1 games have the very same overhead view it's nothing special.
We didn't praise Fighting Force for that.

 

[_Alkaline_]

Mael, your schtick ran out of juice a long time ago.

 

[Mael]

Mael, your schtick ran out of juice a long time ago.

you hate my new avatar?

 

[_Alkaline_]

you hate my new avatar?

You have no avatar.

 

[shadyspace]

I might make an Echoes appreciation thread sometime soon. Been meaning to do it for a while. That game needs more love on these boards.

Do it. I'd love a thread of people convincing me to play it. Pretty much the only Metroid I haven't touched (outside of that demo disc).

 

[robor]

Awesome it's now on par with some n64 fighters!
I don't get the praise for the camera system, most early 3d ps1 games have the very same overhead view it's nothing special.
We didn't praise Fighting Force for that.

What? Did you notice any of the variations of shot composition when enemies come onto the screen or when you change facing directions? Or what about the seamless transitions from tps to fps and the small slow down that assists the player's orientation?

Comparing it to Fighting Force suggests that you missed this entirely.

 

[_Alkaline_]

Do it. I'd love a thread of people convincing me to play it. Pretty much the only Metroid I haven't touched (outside of that demo disc).

There's some spoilers though. Mostly environment stuff.

I might segment it for blokes like you who haven't played it yet, just so you know what to read and what not to.

 

[Mael]

You have no avatar.

that was kinda the point.

If you ask me what's getting old is the lack of new powerups in Metroid games as off late but hey.

What? Did you notice any of the variations of shot composition when enemies come onto the screen or when you change facing directions? Or what about the seamless transitions from tps to fps and the small slow down that assists the player's orientation?

Comparing it to Fighting Force suggests that you missed this entirely.

Nothing in this is even worth mentionin IYAM, the way the camera moves when you're facing a new direction is not of any help considering how badly the character moves (thanks to the 8 ways movements of the Dpad).
the seamless transition from tps to fps is one of the worst thing in the game, if you have motion sickness it's guarranty that your meal will be in first person view too.
And I never did see that slowdown you speak off, I wouldn't mind a more visible example of what you speak of.

 

[_Alkaline_]

that was kinda the point.

If you ask me what's getting old is the lack of new powerups in Metroid games as off late but hey.

Still, better to make the most of established powerups than bring in a bunch of news ones and use them only once or twice like Corruption did.

 

[shadyspace]

I can barely remember anything from Corruption. I recall enjoying it, however.

 

[Mael]

Still, better to make the most of established powerups than bring in a bunch of news ones and use them only once or twice like Corruption did.

no it's not.
Because by the time you reach a third of the game and you realize there's nothing new you can basically drop the game because you know how it'll all unfold.
It's not a problem for a retread or a remake but for a brand new game it's horrenduous.
And since that game has nowhere near the quality of your average Zelda game...

 

[_Alkaline_]

I can barely remember anything from Corruption. I recall enjoying it, however.

It's a great game. There's a few things about it that irk me, but it's still probably the most 'fun' game of the trilogy, even if it's not as complex or satisfying as its predecessors.

 

[robor]

Nothing in this is even worth mentionin IYAM, the way the camera moves when you're facing a new direction is not of any help considering how badly the character moves (thanks to the 8 ways movements of the Dpad).

So it's a tactile-interface problem and not the camera system itself. Sweeeeeeeet.

the seamless transition from tps to fps is one of the worst thing in the game, if you have motion sickness it's guarranty that your meal will be in first person view too.

So it's not about the seamless transition itself being the problem but rather the use of tps and fps in the game (I won't even touch upon the "humor" you included in that critique). Aaaaaaawesome.

And I never did see that slowdown you speak off, I wouldn't mind a more visible example of what you speak of.

Play the game.

 

[Mael]

So it's a tactile-interface problem and not the camera system itself. Sweeeeeeeet.

Nope I'm saying it's pointless as it is because the camera can only pan in 8 directions at best.
This level of control over the camera is ridiculously low in this day&age.
There's nothing spectacular in how the camera moves seriously it's not Mario Galaxy in that regard.

So it's not about the seamless transition itself being the problem but rather the use of tps and fps in the game (I won't even touch upon the "humor" you included in that critique). Aaaaaaawesome.

Now, the way the camera moves in particular IS the problem.
It's not the only game that does seamless transition between fps and tps.
Rare did it better with JFG already on the n64.

Play the game.

Once is more than enough for a lifetime.

 

[robor]

Nope I'm saying it's pointless as it is because the camera can only pan in 8 directions at best.
This level of control over the camera is ridiculously low in this day&age.

The point is to NOT have control over the camera.

There's nothing spectacular in how the camera moves seriously it's not Mario Galaxy in that regard.

So now not only are we comparing oranges with apples, we are also dealing with perceived value. Meaning this discussion is largely useless.

Now, the way the camera moves in particular IS the problem.
It's not the only game that does seamless transition between fps and tps.
Rare did it better with JFG already on the n64.

No. Fucking. Shit.

Once is more than enough for a lifetime.

Google, Youtube, the internet.

 

[Mael]

The point is to NOT have control over the camera.

What is your point then?

So now not only are we comparing oranges with apples, we are also dealing with perceived value. Meaning this discussion is largely useless.

You're speaking about a camera one shouldn't have any need for adjustment and how they did terrific work with it, I object and present you something they really did work in making a working camera.

[img ]http://sorgatronmedia.com/chachisays/files/2011/04/mdk1.jpg[/img]

No. Fucking. Shit.

And so why are you praisin Other M for badly implementing something that's been done 10 years before it?

It's hillarious seeing that kind of praise for something so mundane, seriously I can understand how some can find the controls to their liking but the camera?
Might as well praise Super Paper Mario too for that.

 

[robor]

What is your point then?

What? Did you notice any of the variations of shot composition when enemies come onto the screen or when you change facing directions? Or what about the seamless transitions from tps to fps and the small slow down that assists the player's orientation?

Comparing it to Fighting Force suggests that you missed this entirely.

You're speaking about a camera one shouldn't have any need for adjustment and how they did terrific work with it, I object and present you something they really did work in making a working camera.

As I said, perceived value which means this discussion is useless.

And so why are you praisin Other M for badly implementing something that's been done 10 years before it?

As I said, perceived value which means this discussion is useless.

It's hillarious seeing that kind of praise for something so mundane, seriously I can understand how some can find the controls to their liking but the camera?
Might as well praise Super Paper Mario too for that.

Maybe because there is an art to how a camera system can function on an interactive basis as well as complimenting the atmosphere in the game? I honestly don't understand why this is so complicated to you.

I should of realized that your sarcastic tone in your first response to me is that of a typical elitist "it's OBVIOUS why this sucks" mentality that only drives us home to the "I know you are but what am I?" conclusion.

Hence why so far I've had to constantly spell everything out for you.

 

[Mael]

Maybe because there is an art to how a camera system can function on an interactive basis as well as complimenting the atmosphere in the game? I honestly don't understand why this is so complicated to you.

But there's no art here, it's been done before.
there's basically no way it could have been done another way.
I'm all for praising engineers when they don't screw up but really such praise should be given on non obvious matters.
In this matter, I fail to see how one could praise this particular aspect and not praise pretty much 90% of what's been done in the business for the last 10 years.

I should of realized that your sarcastic tone in your first response to me is that of a typical elitist "it's OBVIOUS why this sucks" mentality that only drives us home to the "I know you are but what am I?" conclusion.

I'm not even saying that it suck, the camera is competent but nothing to write a thesis over either.
Unless you were the one being sarcastic and you're praising the camera because the rest sucks so much that it's the only redeeming quality you could find.

 

[robor]

But there's no art here, it's been done before.
there's basically no way it could have been done another way.
I'm all for praising engineers when they don't screw up but really such praise should be given on non obvious matters.
In this matter, I fail to see how one could praise this particular aspect and not praise pretty much 90% of what's been done in the business for the last 10 years.

Once is not enough for you but you're too stubborn to play it again. Not my problem. There are only 3 dimensions, there are also only a finite number of ways to approach viewing angles in 3D space. I never said it was the first to use this camera system, I'm saying that I think it's execution in said camera system is of great elegance and is one of the best auto-camera systems I've seen. I also love how they implemented object transparency. Their interpretation of this existing camera system is what makes it great in my eyes. THAT's what I'm praising.

Unless you were the one being sarcastic and you're praising the camera because the rest sucks so much that it's the only redeeming quality you could find.

No sarcasm here and yes, it is the only redeeming quality.