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[Good Job Bob]

I am afraid that is open to interpretation.

I agree that this person should be free to call themselves female, but I personally as a heterosexual man would not consider this person a woman .... and I believe most heterosexual men would think the same.

I would not sleep with her, I would still consider her to be a man.


Does that matter to this person in question? ..... I hope not and dare say they could not give a fuck about what I think, I fully support their freedom to choose gender reassignment and to be legally considered a woman ......... but biologically I do not consider her to be.

This I believe is the cornerstone of such issues.

Viewpoints such as yours are ultimately hurtful and significantly contribute to the marginalization and discrimination of trans-peoples.

I'm a heterosexual male and I don't just believe this woman to be biologically a woman, I know such is the case via empirical research.

 

[Dacon]

This is one of those tricky situations that people view very differently.

Personally I think the situation certainly sucks for her. However at the end of the day, she's still a man genetically. No amount of surgery and hormone treatment can change that. With that in mind, I think the organizers of the pageant are well within their rights to DQ her.

I kind of agree. Kind of.

 

[Jburton]

You basically just insulted every trans person on the forum, but hey


No biggie

How so?

Sorry, I don't mean to come across as ignorant.

 

[Invisible_Insane]

I just find the whole plastic surgery arguments go to far bogus, too far in terms of what? The whole thing is built around "fake." If there is an endemic of women modifying themselves and dying just to keep up with these things, then by all means. Hell shut the thing down. They just reinforce shitty standards anyway.

But it's exactly analogous to doping in sports!

Insofar as beauty pageants have meaning, allowing surgical enhancements into them would shift them from a display of arbitrarily selected beauty traits at their purported peaks to a display of surgical prowess.

Equally stupid, but they're not the same thing.

 

[Devolution]

Well the "fake" thing to me isn't why I would be okay with the ban... just the fact that it's expensive enough to the point where rich people REALLY have an advantage.

Rich already do in terms of travel, lessons, dresses, etc but I still see your point.

But it's exactly analogous to doping in sports!

Insofar as beauty pageants have meaning, allowing surgical enhancements into them would shift them from a display of arbitrarily selected beauty traits at their purported peaks to a display of surgical prowess.

Equally stupid, but they're not the same thing.

Still not buying this angle frankly. We're not talking athletic ability we're talking standing around looking pretty.

 

[dojokun]

Rich already do in terms of travel, lessons, dresses, etc but I still see your point.

Ya I agree, especially when you factor in paying a personal coach for whatever talent you are presenting... it's just that the rich would have even MORE an advantage if you allowed surgeries.

 

[Orayn]

Why has my post been taken so badly, I tried to not be offensive, I fully support transgender people in their quest for rights ...... I was just trying to give an opinion.

Fair enough, I realize my reply might have been a little more wry than it needed to be.

I respect your right to an opinion, but my own opinion is that yours lacks subtlety. Even biologically, sex isn't defined in absolute terms. There are genetic conditions like androgen insensitivity syndrome that go against the clean "XY = male, XX = female" dichotomy to the point where it's not really a solid basis for an argument.

 

[Rentahamster]

Not when you have Jburton's simplistic gender = sex = chromosomes worldview!

You basically just insulted every trans person on the forum, but hey


No biggie

It's just a personal definition. Some only use criteria like status at birth/chromosome makeup, etc. Others have a more complicated view.

Let's not pile on just because he expressed his opinion. I don't think that fosters a good environment to exchange ideas. Especially given the content of the second part of his post. He's all for legal status, but in his personal views, she's still a man, based on his own criteria. We just happen to disagree on that criteria.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Eh. You're talking about a pageant where the woman who wins has her eyebrows shaped, a brazilian wax, is wearing eye shadow, concealer, lipstick, blush, flattering lingerie, heels, and curled (or straightened) hair. I probably even left some shit out. But plastic surgery? That's too much? Really?

Yeah. People can die in surgery. And it creates unrealistic expectations, I mean, people can get comically large breasts and lips, things just spiral out of control. Runway fashion models can be crazy skinny just because "the look is in." A certain kind of "look" becomes the trend for pageants, then people without that "look" are forced to be that way.

Flip around ESPN2 on a Tuesday at 3:00 in the morning and you'll see women bodybuilders with ridiculous breast implants, because they're demanded to be lean and muscular AND have large breasts. They're undergoing medical procedures to aspire to a standard that's riding both ends of the scale simultaneously.

Do you oppose doping in sports? It's the same idea. Think bodysuits in swimming or track.

In sport, young men are being put upon to be larger and more powerful. The reason for banning steroids in the pros, isn't because the pros can't make real decisions, it's because it's unfair to demand children to dope-up just to be able to compete. Young athletes are dying.

We've got girls starving themselves to death, we've got boys dropping dead on the playing surface. These standards people are chasing for beauty or for athletic dominance are created by the cheaters who dope and get cut.

 

[bengraven]

Maybe beauty pageants that only pertain to women are out-dated.

I'm actually serious: why not make a co-ed beauty pageant with a third category? Or better yet, just combine them all into one class.

 

[Jimothy]

If she had better legs, she'd be at least an 8.

 

[Madao]

if women can compete in stuff that used to be man-only a few years ago, why can't men do the same? this isn't a contest where you pose naked for everyone.

i await for the day a miss universe winner turns out to be male just for the reactions.

 

[Blondie]

It is known that these transwomen have female brains per cat scans. They are women, plain and simple. Understand that and quit discriminating. If their brains are female and they get their bodies to match what's the issue, other than latent transphobia?

 

[Rentahamster]

Still not buying this angle frankly. We're not talking athletic ability we're talking standing around looking pretty.

They are both competitions in which the participants do everything they can (legally and within their budget) to win.

Cosmetic surgery, like illegal doping in sports, carries a statistically higher risk to one's health than makeup, wonder bras, and posture classes.

 

[Devolution]

Yeah. People can die in surgery. And it creates unrealistic expectations, I mean, people can get comically large breasts and lips, things just spiral out of control. Runway fashion models can be crazy skinny just because "the look is in." A certain kind of "look" becomes the trend for pageants, then people without that "look" are forced to be that way.

Flip around ESPN2 on a Tuesday at 3:00 in the morning and you'll see women bodybuilders with ridiculous breast implants, because they're demanded to be lean and muscular AND have large breasts. They're undergoing medical procedures to aspire to a standard that's riding both ends of the scale simultaneously.



In sport, young men are being put upon to be larger and more powerful. The reason for banning steroids in the pros, isn't because the pros can't make real decisions, it's because it's unfair to demand children to dope-up just to be able to compete. Young athletes are dying.

We've got girls starving themselves to death, we've got boys dropping dead on the playing surface. These standards people are chasing for beauty or for athletic dominance are created by the cheaters who dope and get cut.

I understand this more than what he was getting at and have to concede the health angle but when a competition is all about modifying oneself, the whole "it gives them an advantage" in that avenue just makes me shrug.

They are both competitions in which the participants do everything they can (legally and within their budget) to win.

Cosmetic surgery, like illegal doping in sports, carries a statistically higher risk to one's health than makeup, wonder bras, and posture classes.

See above.

 

[squidyj]

How so?

Sorry, I don't mean to come across as ignorant.

seriously? "you're not a real woman" isn't an insult?

I understand this more than what he was getting at and have to concede the health angle but when a competition is all about modifying oneself, the whole "it gives them an advantage" in that avenue just makes me shrug.




See above.

Modifying oneself for performance of tasks is different than modifying oneself to achieve an aesthetic?

 

[lexi]

It's just a personal definition. Some only use criteria like status at birth/chromosome makeup, etc. Others have a more complicated view.

Let's not pile on just because he expressed his opinion. I don't think that fosters a good environment to exchange ideas. Especially given the content of the second part of his post. He's all for legal status, but in his personal views, she's still a man, based on his own criteria. We just happen to disagree on that criteria.

I wasn't piling on, if he was genuine about what he said I could totally be his bro, he said he sees me entirely as a man.

So we could totally shoot the shit, hang out, cruise for girls (real ones of course, not those fucking disgusting trannies)

 

[friskykillface]

That's a shame, she's really beautiful

:/ what a dumb rule

 

[Jburton]

Fair enough, I realize my reply might have been a little more wry than it needed to be.

I respect your right to an opinion, but my own opinion is that yours lacks subtlety. Even biologically, sex isn't defined in absolute terms. There are genetic conditions like androgen insensitivity syndrome that go against the clean "XY = male, XX = female" dichotomy to the point where it's not really a solid basis for an argument.

Fair enough, I mean in my "traditonal" point of view a biological woman has female sex organs, the possiblity for reproduction, breasts (there for fun but in the biological sense they feed the children produced by the women).

I understand that point of view lacks subtlety and I apologize, I understand gender identity is a different thing altogether and that is the part I fail to understand from a transgender persons point of view, because I have not had to deal with what I can only assume to be a very difficult thing to deal with.

 

[Invisible_Insane]

Still not buying this angle frankly. We're not talking athletic ability we're talking standing around looking pretty.

Athletic ability isn't the relevant issue, though. It's a question of deciding which elements of technology are fair to include in competition and which aren't. Do you think there are good reasons for thinking that certain medical interventions should not be allowed into competitive events? ...

Yeah. People can die in surgery. And it creates unrealistic expectations, I mean, people can get comically large breasts and lips, things just spiral out of control. Runway fashion models can be crazy skinny just because "the look is in." A certain kind of "look" becomes the trend for pageants, then people without that "look" are forced to be that way.

Flip around ESPN2 on a Tuesday at 3:00 in the morning and you'll see women bodybuilders with ridiculous breast implants, because they're demanded to be lean and muscular AND have large breasts. They're undergoing medical procedures to aspire to a standard that's riding both ends of the scale simultaneously.

In sport, young men are being put upon to be larger and more powerful. The reason for banning steroids in the pros, isn't because the pros can't make real decisions, it's because it's unfair to demand children to dope-up just to be able to compete. Young athletes are dying.

We've got girls starving themselves to death, we've got boys dropping dead on the playing surface. These standards people are chasing for beauty or for athletic dominance are created by the cheaters who dope and get cut.

Like so. I don't find this argument particularly compelling, as I think if doping was sanctioned and included, we would have much more sophisticated ways of measuring its effects on performance and including it in the rules and regulations of the sport. Nonetheless, this is a legitimate rationale for thinking that the introduction of surgical interventions into pageants could be potentially dangerous.

 

[Rentahamster]

I wasn't piling on, if he was genuine about what he said I could totally be his bro, he said he sees me entirely as a man.

Which is why it's important to explain that it's not as simple as that, if he's open to it. Derision may feel good, but it's not the best way to change minds.

 

[fireside]

How so?

Sorry, I don't mean to come across as ignorant.

I would not sleep with her, I would still consider her to be a man.

Considering a trans person to be their biological sex instead of their gender identity is demeaning. It is telling them that their own thoughts and feelings, and most likely brain make-up, is incorrect. It is telling them that no matter what they do, they are never going to really be a woman (or man); that they are just pretending and that they should get over themselves.

It's just a personal definition. Some only use criteria like status at birth/chromosome makeup, etc. Others have a more complicated view.

Let's not pile on just because he expressed his opinion. I don't think that fosters a good environment to exchange ideas. Especially given the content of the second part of his post. He's all for legal status, but in his personal views, she's still a man, based on his own criteria. We just happen to disagree on that criteria.

His opinion is insulting. I am going to point out his insulting opinion so people know it’s insulting.

 

[flem1]

Well that's obvious. You need to be born with a vagina or a natural woman in order to join.

 

[SpiffyG]

Well that's obvious. You need to be born with a vagina or a natural woman in order to join.

How is that obvious?

 

[Jburton]

I wasn't piling on, if he was genuine about what he said I could totally be his bro, he said he sees me entirely as a man.

So we could totally shoot the shit, hang out, cruise for girls (real ones of course, not those fucking disgusting trannies)

I apologise, I sincerely did not mean to offend .... which I have, I am sorry.

 

[Orayn]

Well that's obvious. You need to be born with a vagina or a natural woman in order to join.

I really don't see why that needs to be the case. It's a weird caveat to have in a contest where the differences don't really come into play.

 

[Devolution]

Modifying oneself for performance of tasks is different than modifying oneself to achieve an aesthetic?

Yes. If the competition is literally about who looks best to me it's just another extension of it. They don't outlaw other advantages why this one? And I already said I agree with economical and health reasons, I just don't buy this one.

 

[Jburton]

Considering a trans person to be their biological sex instead of their gender identity is demeaning. It is telling them that their own thoughts and feelings, and most likely brain make-up, is incorrect. It is telling them that no matter what they do, they are never going to really be a woman (or man); that they are just pretending and that they should get over themselves.



His opinion is insulting. I am going to point out his insulting opinion so people know it’s insulting.

Thats not what I meant at all, not at all.

 

[squidyj]

I apologise, I sincerely did not mean to offend .... which I have, I am sorry.

You apologize a lot but I have to be honest I'm not convinced you really understand what it is that you did.

Yes. If the competition is literally about who looks best to me it's just another extension of it. They don't outlaw other advantages why this one? And I already said I agree with economical and health reasons, I just don't buy this one.

I don't follow that reasoning, if the competition is about who is the strongest then you train and modify yourself to become stronger to win the competition but at the same time there are limits placed on what you can do to modify yourself. Likewise for a contest of beauty. I'm not convinced the forms of modification present in a beauty pageant are sufficiently 'different' to that one would see in a physical competition to warrant that sort of a distinction.

 

[Devolution]

Thats not what I meant at all, not at all.

It's a touchy subject because when you say women are only those born with a vagina or hell can get pregnant you're excluding a whole gamut of people who are in fact women.

 

[Invisible_Insane]

Yes. If the competition is literally about who looks best to me it's just another extension of it. They don't outlaw other advantages why this one? And I already said I agree with economical and health reasons, I just don't buy this one.

Some people like their artifice uncompounded; like I said before, it shifts the competition from one of meeting an admittedly arbitrary checklist by lot to one of a display of surgical prowess. They may be comparing the same things, but the means by which they are achieved is relevant.

 

[mollipen]

His opinion is insulting. I am going to point out his insulting opinion so people know it’s insulting.

The problem I have is that I think we really need to be careful to separate those who are purposely trying to be insulting, and those who just haven't had enough experiences with people who are trans to see the issue from the other side.

I honestly don't think Jburton was trying to be insulting. Do I agree with or like his opinion? No, not at all. I'd just rather try to explain the other side of things, and hope that he might reconsider his thinking—versus just jumping all over him, assuring that he'll never get into another trans-related discussion (and thus have the chance to have that opinion changed).

We have to remember that opinions that we may find insulting often times come out of ignorance—and not intentional ignorance.

That's why I always enjoy when both lexi and I are in the same thread—I'm the one begging for peace, she's the one reloading her guns so that she can gun everyone down while laughing maniacally. *heh*

 

[Jburton]

You apologize a lot but I have to be honest I'm not convinced you really understand what it is that you did.

I think I am beginning to comprehend what it was I stated that has caused offence.

I can only say it was from naïvety and not malice, I have no wish to diminish anyone.

 

[fireside]

Thats not what I meant at all, not at all.

That may not be what you meant, but that’s the implication of what you said.

 

[lexi]

I apologise, I sincerely did not mean to offend .... which I have, I am sorry.

I appreciate you may not wish to offend, but when I see those kinds of statements I'm a bit struck by how unrealistic it is It's like those 'Bathroom Bills' that state trans people must use the bathroom of their birth sex. I see things like that exactly the same as I see your statements.

How well do you think it's gonna go down if I use male bathrooms?

 

[Invisible_Insane]

I think I am beginning to comprehend what it was I stated that has caused offence.

I can only say it was from naïvety and not malice, I have no wish to diminish anyone.

Oh, for goodness' sake:

Spoiler

If you're going to bother typing the umlaut, spell it "naïveté."

 

[squidyj]

I think I am beginning to comprehend what it was I stated that has caused offence.

I can only say it was from naïvety and not malice, I have no wish to diminish anyone.

well alright then. Also, naïveté

GODDAMNIT INVISIBLE.

 

[Jburton]

Oh, for goodness' sake:

Spoiler

If you're going to bother typing the umlaut, spell it "naïveté."

Damn iOS correction lol. ( thats what I am sticking with)

 

[Dr.Acula]

Yes. If the competition is literally about who looks best to me it's just another extension of it. They don't outlaw other advantages why this one? And I already said I agree with economical and health reasons, I just don't buy this one.

No way, it's about who most conforms to a standard. There's a reason that film starlets do not look like runway models. Models do not "look best." Their look is specific to the industry. When you standardise an aesthetic, then people start thinking about surgery. Same thing happened in porn in the 90s.

 

[Devolution]

No way, it's about who most conforms to a standard. There's a reason that film starlets do not look like runway models. Models do not "look best." Their look is specific to the industry. When you standardise an aesthetic, then people start thinking about surgery. Same thing happened in porn in the 90s.

Fair enough. Just another reason it should fall by the wayside then. I mean you could ban plastic surgery but where do you draw the line?

 

[Dr.Acula]

Fair enough. Just another reason it should fall by the wayside then. I mean you could ban plastic surgery but where do you draw the line?

Putting Donald Trump on a shuttle and blasting it into the Sun?

 

[SMT]

I am afraid that is open to interpretation.

I agree that this person should be free to call themselves female, but I personally as a heterosexual man would not consider this person a woman .... and I believe most heterosexual men would think the same.

I would not sleep with her, I would still consider her to be a man.


Does that matter to this person in question? ..... I hope not and dare say they could not give a fuck about what I think, I fully support their freedom to choose gender reassignment and to be legally considered a woman ......... but biologically I do not consider her to be.

This I believe is the cornerstone of such issues.

Biologically we are both male and female, until hormones secreted inside your mother's womb change that facet.
You may have met some girls with the Y chromosome and have been completely oblivious, a great portion of those girls don't even know they have it until they are confirmed to be sterile.
X or Y, doesn't matter, your body is only a vessel to your spirit. Ultimately, we are all wandering souls and chose our respective paths, some people don't allow this and will demonstrate just how conceited and closed-minded people can be.
X or Y doesn't identify gender, that is a 3rd grader's guideline as to what CAN a gender be attributed to, they're only telling you only half the truth. You should read the following book --- Gender : Psychological Perspectives by Dr. Linda Brannon (2009), a really good book on this subject ---

 

[Rentahamster]

I mean you could ban plastic surgery but where do you draw the line?

The definition of "invasive surgery" is specific enough to have that as the line.

( or "minimally invasive procedure", to be more specific)

 

[Jburton]

Putting Donald Trump on a shuttle and blasting it into the Sun?

With that hair of his he has some balls being anywhere near a beauty pagent.

 

[Invisible_Insane]

Putting Donald Trump on a shuttle and blasting it into the Sun?

After which we would discover that blowhards could extinguish fusion reactions.

Fair enough. Just another reason it should fall by the wayside then. I mean you could ban plastic surgery but where do you draw the line?

Do people honestly care about beauty pageants anymore? Other than the tiny part of the population that gets involved in them?

 

[Satyamdas]

Biologically we are both male and female, until hormones secreted inside your mother's womb change that facet.
You may have met some girls with the Y chromosome and have been completely oblivious, a great portion of those girls don't even know they have it until they are confirmed to be sterile.
X or Y, doesn't matter, your body is only a vessel to your spirit. Ultimately, we are all wandering souls and chose our respective paths, some people don't allow this and will demonstrate just how conceited and closed-minded people can be.
X or Y doesn't identify gender, that is a 3rd grader's guideline as to what CAN a gender be attributed to, they're only telling you only half the truth. You should read the following book --- Gender : Psychological Perspectives by Dr. Linda Brannon (2009), a really good book on this subject ---

I can practically hear GAF's keyboards clicking with righteous indignation at this horribly superstitious and unproven statement.

Godspeed, SMT.

 

[LuchaShaq]

I appreciate you may not wish to offend, but when I see those kinds of statements I'm a bit struck by how unrealistic it is It's like those 'Bathroom Bills' that state trans people must use the bathroom of their birth sex. I see things like that exactly the same as I see your statements.

How well do you think it's gonna go down if I use male bathrooms?

Personally would turn leave asap, because in my experience if someone is in the bathroom that doesn't look male they are about to have sex and I don't want to interrupt and ruin the moment for them.

Spoiler

I am assuming I didn't say anything offensive, but I'm a dumb ass so odds are I did so I apologize because it certainly wasn't intentional.

 

[Devolution]

Do people honestly care about beauty pageants anymore? Other than the tiny part of the population that gets involved in them?

Some people sure do like watching the swimsuit competition on those big ones.

 

[fireside]

The problem I have is that I think we really need to be careful to separate those who are purposely trying to be insulting, and those who just haven't had enough experiences with people who are trans to see the issue from the other side.

I honestly don't think Jburton was trying to be insulting. Do I agree with or like his opinion? No, not at all. I'd just rather try to explain the other side of things, and hope that he might reconsider his thinking—versus just jumping all over him, assuring that he'll never get into another trans-related discussion (and thus have the chance to have that opinion changed).

We have to remember that opinions that we may find insulting often times come out of ignorance—and not intentional ignorance.

That's why I always enjoy when both lexi and I are in the same thread—I'm the one begging for peace, she's the one reloading her guns so that she can gun everyone down while laughing maniacally. *heh*

I don’t disagree with any of this. I’m always open to discuss things with people who have an open mind.

And yes, snarky comments probably don’t help very much in communicating that.

 

[PhoenixDark]

I appreciate you may not wish to offend, but when I see those kinds of statements I'm a bit struck by how unrealistic it is It's like those 'Bathroom Bills' that state trans people must use the bathroom of their birth sex. I see things like that exactly the same as I see your statements.

How well do you think it's gonna go down if I use male bathrooms?

Couldn't have been stated better