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[DR2K]

They also must not be married, pregnant, and have to fill out a more comprehensive form if they meet the basic requirements.

What the fuck is this Al-Quida, lol? Can private organizations not be sued for discrimination?

 

[SMT]

I can practically hear GAF's keyboards clicking with righteous indignation at this horribly superstitious and unproven statement.

Godspeed, SMT.

Actually, EMPIRICAL Scientific studies of the brains of those who did not feel like they were in the right vessel representative of their gender showed great similarities to those of the 'typical' opposite gender. My reasoning is based on scientific data, it is not unproven. But, widely-known is a different story. I think you are exaggerating, sure people can disagree all they want, it's a forum after all. The only practical noise you hear is due to hallucinations, nothing more. Read the book, it's my field of study, I would know what I'm talking about.

 

[Pollux]

This is probably a very stupid question...but the hormone therapy y'all were talking about earlier...

And I apologize in advance since I really don't know how to word this, but...

If a transgirl, is that the right term?, starts the hormone therapy prior to starting puberty then she would physically develop just like any other girl?

 

[sangreal]

Oh, for goodness' sake:

Spoiler

If you're going to bother typing the umlaut, spell it "naïveté."

That's a diaeresis, not an umlaut.

 

[johnsmith]

This article has more pics http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...erse-Canada-pageant.html?ICO=most_read_module

like the fist of an angry god

 

[squidyj]

Actually, EMPIRICAL Scientific studies of the brains of those who did not feel like they were in the right vessel representative of their gender showed great similarities to those of the 'typical' opposite gender. My reasoning is based on scientific data, it is not unproven. But, widely-known is a different story. I think you are exaggerating, sure people can disagree all they want, it's a forum after all. The only practical noise you hear is due to hallucinations, nothing more. Read the book, it's my field of study, I would know what I'm talking about.

your explanation of the causation of the phenomenon is wild speculation.

 

[SMT]

This is probably a very stupid question...but the hormone therapy y'all were talking about earlier...

And I apologize in advance since I really don't know how to word this, but...

If a transgirl, is that the right term?, starts the hormone therapy prior to starting puberty then she would physically develop just like any other girl?

She would be very akin, the only subtle and difference would be the genitalia.

your explanation of the causation of the phenomenon is wild speculation.

Read the book, it's not for nothing that we have scientists working day and night to explain this phenomena.

 

[Satyamdas]

Actually, EMPIRICAL Scientific studies of the brains of those who did not feel like they were in the right vessel representative of their gender showed great similarities to those of the 'typical' opposite gender. My reasoning is based on scientific data, it is not unproven. But, widely-known is a different story. I think you are exaggerating, sure people can disagree all they want, it's a forum after all. The only practical noise you hear is due to hallucinations, nothing more. Read the book, it's my field of study, I would know what I'm talking about.

Uhhhh, I was referring to this statement you made:

X or Y, doesn't matter, your body is only a vessel to your spirit. Ultimately, we are all wandering souls and chose our respective paths

I even bolded it for you the first time around.

So you have empirical proof of the existence of the soul? You have physical evidence of a spirit residing in our material bodies? Or were you just waxing poetic? Because GAF cannot and will not abide these silly superstitious statements affirming the existence of a spirit or soul. They need to be challenged and mocked on sight.

It's for your own good.

 

[Orayn]

This is probably a very stupid question...but the hormone therapy y'all were talking about earlier...

And I apologize in advance since I really don't know how to word this, but...

If a transgirl, is that the right term?, starts the hormone therapy prior to starting puberty then she would physically develop just like any other girl?

Yeah, the earlier hormones start, the easier and more effective HRT will be, since it means shutting down the competing hormones before they have a chance to make more dramatic changes.

 

[hockeypuck]

This is probably a very stupid question...but the hormone therapy y'all were talking about earlier...

And I apologize in advance since I really don't know how to word this, but...

If a transgirl, is that the right term?, starts the hormone therapy prior to starting puberty then she would physically develop just like any other girl?

Secondary sex characteristics like breast formation and widening of hip bones do occur. Relative muscle mass decreases. No new organ formation, however.

 

[SMT]

your explanation of the causation of the phenomenon is wild speculation.

Uhhhh, I was referring to this statement you made:


I even bolded it for you the first time around.

So you have empirical proof of the existence of the soul? You have physical evidence of a spirit residing in our material bodies? Or were you just waxing poetic? Because GAF cannot and will not abide these silly superstitious statements affirming the existence of a spirit or soul. They need to be challenged and mocked on sight.

It's for your own good.

Don't I wax poetic enough on here for you to know if I'm doing so or not? When you conclude, you're telling me you don't end with something deep?

 

[Pollux]

Yeah, the earlier hormones start, the easier and more effective HRT will be, since it means shutting down the competing hormones before they have a chance to make more dramatic changes.

Interesting. Thanks.

Edit: so hormone therapy alone can lead to her having wider hips, breasts, a slighter build, etc.?

 

[SMT]

Interesting. Thanks.

Edit: so hormone therapy alone can lead to her having wider hips, breasts, a slighter build, etc.?

Yes, slender build and everything else associated. In other words: you won't be able to tell, unless you examine her tanookie with a trained eye.

 

[Wiktor]

Well, she's not a woman, so letting her compete would be pretty silly.

I wonder if they would let her compete in Mister Universe though

 

[bengraven]

Wow, that was single-handedly the fastest fucking ban I've ever seen. This thread is under the protection of a higher power.

Yes, slender build and everything else associated. In other words: you won't be able to tell, unless you examine her tanookie with a trained eye.

Wow, I did NOT know that until this day. I assumed bone shape would always remain the same.

 

[Orayn]

The mods be swift and merciless on this might. I like it!

Interesting. Thanks.

Edit: so hormone therapy alone can lead to her having wider hips, breasts, a slighter build, etc.?

Absolutely, since nearly all of those changes happen during puberty. It's essentially having puberty in the correct gender if it can be started early enough, and it can make a very big difference.

 

[Forceatowulf]

Fuck it, let her compete. I don't want to sound like a dick(but I will) looking at her, there is no way she wins Miss Universe anyways. Because if she's honestly the best looking chick in that competition they've got more problems to worry about...

I honestly think any woman that has plastic surgery should be DQ'd from events like this.

Totally agree with this. Isn't it akin to athletes using steroids? Bring you natural beauty or don't bother showing up. Period.

But with that being said, I don't watch these shows and they're clearly not aimed at my demo. So my opinion on the subject doesn't and shouldn't matter worth a fuck.

 

[Devolution]

Totally agree with this. Isn't it akin to athletes using steroids? Bring you natural beauty or don't bother showing up. Period.

Pageant. Natural beauty. Sure.

 

[DY_nasty]

Its one thing to be clueless... another to be outright disrespectful.

I don't see how they can kick her out though. They essentially made up a rule to do it. :/

 

[GoldenEye 007]

i need to go ly dow

 

[Good Job Bob]

Fuck it, let her compete. I don't want to sound like a dick(but I will) looking at her, there is no way she wins Miss Universe anyways. Because if she's honestly the best looking chick in that competition they've got more problems to worry about...

Hmm, this post made me wonder who's won the past two years.

Miss Universe 2011:

Leila Lopes, Angola

(yum)

Miss Universe 2010:

Ximena Navarrete, Mexico

(pretty nice)

 

[squidyj]

i need to go ly dow

How does that even apply?

 

[thatbox]

I would not sleep with her, I would still consider her to be a man.

So glad we have Jburton available to guide us through these truly confusing times.

 

[Forceatowulf]

Pageant. Natural beauty. Sure.

I don't ever expect it to happen. But then, this show is clearly not for me.

Damn, Leila Lopes is bad. Would wife that in a heart beat.

 

[docbon]

Bring you natural beauty or don't bother showing up. Period.

yes, it would own if they weren't allowed to wear makeup of any kind.

 

[Yaboosh]

How does that even apply?

When in Rome...

 

[Trent Strong]

Biologically we are both male and female, until hormones secreted inside your mother's womb change that facet.
You may have met some girls with the Y chromosome and have been completely oblivious, a great portion of those girls don't even know they have it until they are confirmed to be sterile.
X or Y, doesn't matter, your body is only a vessel to your spirit. Ultimately, we are all wandering souls and chose our respective paths, some people don't allow this and will demonstrate just how conceited and closed-minded people can be.
X or Y doesn't identify gender, that is a 3rd grader's guideline as to what CAN a gender be attributed to, they're only telling you only half the truth. You should read the following book --- Gender : Psychological Perspectives by Dr. Linda Brannon (2009), a really good book on this subject ---

There's no such thing as a spirit or soul, dude.

Don't I wax poetic enough on here for you to know if I'm doing so or not? When you conclude, you're telling me you don't end with something deep?

If you don't believe in a soul, then why would you use that kind of terminology? It just confuses any point you're trying to make.

 

[Devolution]

I don't ever expect it to happen. But then, this show is clearly not for me.

Just sayin' plastic surgery isn't the only non-natural thing in the mix when it comes to pageant beauty. In fact I wish the phrase natural beauty would fuck right off entirely. There is a set beauty standard and it is not natural. Even women who don't wear makeup still conform, like myself, shaving and plucking. Still not natural in any sense.

 

[DY_nasty]

So glad we have Jburton available to guide us through these truly confusing times.

That's his opinion. It may be a naive and confused one, but its not like transgender issues are something that people encounter regularly. He isn't coming out like "fuk all of em". He's expressing a viewpoint that isn't uncommon by any means and he's speaking solely for himself - not declaring his views as law. Hell, he even says he's clueless.

Jumping down his ass sideways ain't helping.

edit: btw, shidoshi - continuous props.

 

[Forceatowulf]

yes, it would own if they weren't allowed to wear makeup of any kind.

Even better! I'm not even joking.

I mean, shit, If you really want to see who's the best looking chick in the universe, why not judge them by what they really look like?

 

[Gaborn]

Well, she's not a woman, so letting her compete would be pretty silly.

I wonder if they would let her compete in Mister Universe though

She is a woman, although, I'm honestly not sure how reasonable or unreasonable it is strictly to the issue of allowing someone to compete after they've had plastic surgery done. I think the surgery is necessary for medical reasons since gender identity disorder is a documented medical condition with the recommended treatment of HRT and SRS but I'm not sure that matters for a beauty pageant.

My guess is beauty pageants still allow things like breast enlargements for competitors (I SEEM to remember that was the case with Carrie PreJean, that runner up a few years back that was against gay marriage) and so I wouldn't have an issue with the woman here competing.

I think it would probably be even more controversial if she had AIS and never surgery in the first place though.

My personal view though is that beauty pagents SHOULDN'T allow any sort of modification to a person. But I suspect no beauty pageant has that rule because it would be too limiting. Beauty pagents are sort of silly anyway though.

 

[ripastraea]

She's still my Miss Canada

 

[BocoDragon]

Well, she's not a woman, so letting her compete would be pretty silly.

There is probably a place to state that, or have that debate... but as I've discovered recently from a 2 week ban myself, GAF is not that place. The party line here is that male/female designation is a choice, period.

 

[Forceatowulf]

Just sayin' plastic surgery isn't the only non-natural thing in the mix when it comes to pageant beauty. In fact I wish the phrase natural beauty would fuck right off entirely. There is a set beauty standard and it is not natural. Even women who don't wear makeup still conform, like myself, shaving and plucking. Still not natural in any sense.

Well, natural beauty to me is anyone who hasn't had their body sliced open to enhance themselves or had substances injected into their bodies to do the same.

And there's a difference between grooming your self and having surgery.

 

[SMT]

Wow, that was single-handedly the fastest fucking ban I've ever seen. This thread is under the protection of a higher power.




Wow, I did NOT know that until this day. I assumed bone shape would always remain the same.

Well, essentially you are inhibiting her form from taking that of a male build by blocking the secretion of male hormones.

It's quite beautiful.

---

We don't know if the woman has had beauty enhancement surgery, where did you guys come up with this? Gender change surgery is but a parallel movement at its best.
Even if she did have beauty enhancement surgery, where are the rules stating that she is exempt from competing?

It's not like a miracle drug that one can take to make them progressively better minus the suffering of going under the knife. If you shattered your knee, and the doctor's were able to hypothetically reconstruct it even better than it was before, would you be exempt from competition in the track & field portion of the Olympics? I think not, many people would praise your success story and the courage that propelled you to your choice/decision.

Politics like that of a beauty pageant are rigged, what is beauty? It's in the eyes of the beholder, that's what. Relativity is based on the subjective.

If I did believe in a soul, I would attribute it to one's conscience. I'm not sorry if this confuses you further, but then again this isn't about philosophy. We can debate that in another thread.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Just sayin' plastic surgery isn't the only non-natural thing in the mix when it comes to pageant beauty. In fact I wish the phrase natural beauty would fuck right off entirely. There is a set beauty standard and it is not natural. Even women who don't wear makeup still conform, like myself, shaving and plucking. Still not natural in any sense.

That's the "where do you draw the line," point again. I think it's pretty easy to draw a line at surgery.

The only problem is then you encourage underground surgery I guess.

And there's a difference between grooming your self and having surgery.

Beaten.

 

[Gaborn]

Well, natural beauty to me is anyone who hasn't had their body sliced open to enhance themselves or had substances injected into their bodies to do the same.

And there's a difference between grooming your self and having surgery.

Except this is the same company that loaned Carrie Prejean $5200 for breast implants and then sued her for not paying them back.

 

[Orayn]

There is probably a place to state that, or have that debate... but as I've discovered recently from a 2 week ban myself, GAF is not that place. The party line here is that male/female designation is a choice, period.

You're grossly misunderstanding the "party line" if you think you got banned for denying that gender is a choice.

 

[Devolution]

Well, natural beauty to me is anyone who hasn't had their body sliced open to enhance themselves or had substances injected into their bodies to do the same.

And there's a difference between grooming your self and having surgery.

Yes but grooming oneself and even the standards in which the women are judged is not "natural." They're wearing heels, hair is treated, eyebrows shaped, legs shaven etc. There is a set standard here that's not "here's my morning face and body."

The only problem is then you encourage underground surgery I guess.

That's what I was thinking earlier too =/.

 

[Forceatowulf]

Except this is the same company that loaned Carrie Prejean $5200 for breast implants and then sued her for not paying them back.

Umm I'm not defending this company. I think it's pretty horrible.

I'm just throwing out shit that would get me interested in this type of competition. True natural beauty being one of them.

 

[evil solrac v3.0]

I honestly think any woman that has plastic surgery should be DQ'd from events like this.

then all the girls, let me repeat, ALL the girls would be disqualified.

 

[BocoDragon]

You're grossly misunderstanding the "party line" if you think you got banned for denying that gender is a choice.

I was having the reasonable philosophical conversation about what is or is not a man/woman. That was apparently not a reasonable discussion to have around here.

 

[Dr.Acula]

Except this is the same company that loaned Carrie Prejean $5200 for breast implants and then sued her for not paying them back.

They should just allow bra-stuffing in pageants and move on. Unless they do already?

 

[Devolution]

I was having the reasonable philosophical conversation about what is or is not a man/woman. That was apparently not a reasonable discussion to have around here.

Were you the one who made some argument about how we don't want them labeling themselves as us? Because that was uncalled for and complete bullshit.

Umm I'm not defending this company. I think it's pretty horrible.

I'm just throwing out shit that would get me interested in this type of competition. True natural beauty being one of them.

Again, no such thing.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

How does that even apply?

I... It speaks to the fact she is really beautiful. But my mind is melting over the fact that she was at one point a man.

My mind is melting and I am now lying dow.

 

[Gaborn]

They should just allow bra-stuffing in pageants and move on. Unless they do already?

Since I'm gay I really don't care whether they do or not, I just think it's ironic that we're discussing some mythical beauty pagent that doesn't allow contestants to enhance themselves with surgery when the specific company we're talking about is on the record as paying for a contestant to get breast implants.

 

[Grinchy]

I don't really understand the debates going on in here. The quote in the OP claims that there's no rule against having cosmetic surgery or reassignment surgery. On what grounds was she disqualified, then?

It can't be because she got fake tits or changed gender, because there are apparently no rules stating that's not allowed. So what's the point of debating that she should have been disqualified because of those reasons?

 

[Forceatowulf]

Yes but grooming oneself and even the standards in which the women are judged is not "natural." They're wearing heels, hair is treated, eyebrows shaped, etc. There is a set standard here that's not "here's my morning face and body."

Well as I said above, if I had things my way they wouldn't be allowed to do some of those things either.

But listen, when someone says "natural beauty" they're usually talking about people with no history of plastic surgeries and injections. Not people who get haircuts and shave their arm-pits and the such. I mean that's like someone saying an athlete is "juicing" because they drink protein shakes and eat granola Bars. It's not the same thing...

 

[Devolution]

I was having the reasonable philosophical conversation about what is or is not a man/woman. That was apparently not a reasonable discussion to have around here.

Reasonable? When you compare cosmetic surgery to gender reassignment surgery you are not being reasonable.

Well as I said above, if I had things my way they wouldn't be allowed to do some of those things either.

But listen, when someone says "natural beauty" they're usually talking about people with no history of plastic surgeries and injections. Not people who get haircuts and shave their arm-pits and the such. I mean that's like someone saying an athlete is "juicing" because they drink protein shakes and eat granola Bars. It's not the same thing...

And I still consider it a disingenuous term since different cultures and places have different attitudes on what constitutes beauty, and rarely are they "natural."

 

[SMT]

Since I'm gay I really don't care whether they do or not, I just think it's ironic that we're discussing some mythical beauty pagent that doesn't allow contestants to enhance themselves with surgery when the specific company we're talking about is on the record as paying for a contestant to get breast implants.

You make a great point, unearthing such information undermines the pageant's resolve. I would thumbtack this all over the judges' faces.