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[mollipen]

Wow, I did NOT know that until this day. I assumed bone shape would always remain the same.

Edit: so hormone therapy alone can lead to her having wider hips, breasts, a slighter build, etc.?

From my understanding (in terms of the difference HRT makes at different steps), think about what's already happened, and what hasn't.

If you're a pre-teen going into puberty, and you switch your hormones from one sex to the other, you would then go through the puberty of that new sex. If you're going from male to female, you'll grow breasts, but you wouldn't suddenly grow, say, ovaries or a vagina, because those are things that don't grow at that point. If you're going female to male, your voice would deepen, and you'd grow facial hair (because, again, those are things that hit via puberty).

Then there's things that depend on when you start HRT. If you're born male, and take hormones before your voice deepens, then I think female hormones will stop that from happening. If you start HRT after your voice has broken, it won't magically reverse itself. If taken early enough, then I think bone structure can be altered, because bones are still growing. If you take hormones after your bones have stopped growing, they wouldn't be affected.

However, body shape does change due to fat distribution. Going from male to female, not only can you grow breasts, but fat distribution changes can do things like giving you more shapely hips/ass, soften your face, etc. Muscle mass will also reduce, so you'll end up looking smaller due to that.

Results also totally depend on your genetics. I know some transgirls who barely end up with an A-cup breast-wise—and then I have another friend who ended up with amazing C-cups. So that too can be a major differential in the results people end up with via HRT.

 

[-Plasma Reus-]

They should have just been frank about it. They DQ'ed her for being Canadian. I can't blame them. Self-hating Canadians are our only hope.

 

[squidyj]

I... It speaks to the fact she is really beautiful. But my mind is melting over the fact that she was at one point a man.

My mind is melting and I am now lying dow.

I hope you find your girl.

 

[Forceatowulf]

And I still consider it a disingenuous term since different cultures and places have different attitudes on what constitutes beauty, and rarely are they "natural."

I get where you're coming from. But the term natural beauty is pretty simple in it's meaning to me and the people I've been around. If you don't have a history of cosmetic surgeries and injections you're all natural as far as I'm concerned.

Never been a big fan of make-up. Or push up bras. Or weaves/Hair extensions/Relaxers/perms. Or any of that garbage. Those late night infomercials selling products to hide or enhance a woman's assets has also always bothered me on a certain level.

I've never really been a big fan of any beauty enhancement products when I really think about... I mean, nearly every day I wake up, I shower, I dress, I walk out the door. The only thing I use to enhance my self is combing my hair and trimming my facial hair from time to time. I've always admired women who don't go overboard with the beauty products and are simply well groomed, and are not afraid to just walk out that door the same way I do.

I often find my self checking out those women much more because it's rarer than it should be....

 

[GoldenEye 007]

I hope you find your girl.

I don't get it. Are you implying I was being offensive?

And I have...

 

[squidyj]

I don't get it. Are you implying I was being offensive?

And I have...

well you're one step ahead of JBaird then.

 

[Devolution]

I get where you're coming from. But the term natural beauty is pretty simple in it's meaning to me and the people I've been around. If you don't have a history of cosmetic surgeries and injections you're all natural as far as I'm concerned.

Never been a big fan of make-up. Or push up bras. Or weaves/Hair extensions/Relaxers/perms. Or any of that garbage. Those late night infomercials selling products to hide or enhance a woman's assets has also always bothered me on a certain level.

I've never really been a big fan of any beauty enhancement products when I really think about... I mean, nearly every day I wake up, I shower, I dress, I walk out the door. The only thing I use to enhance my self is combing my hair and trimming my facial hair from time to time. I've always admired women who don't go overboard with the beauty products and are simply well groomed, and are not afraid to just walk out that door the same way I do.

I often find my self checking out those women much more because it's rarer than it should be....

Wish more people were just into genuine looks.

 

[criesofthepast]

I get where you're coming from. But the term natural beauty is pretty simple in it's meaning to me and the people I've been around. If you don't have a history of cosmetic surgeries and injections you're all natural as far as I'm concerned.

Never been a big fan of make-up. Or push up bras. Or weaves/Hair extensions/Relaxers/perms. Or any of that garbage. Those late night infomercials selling products to hide or enhance a woman's assets has also always bothered me on a certain level.

I've never really been a big fan of any beauty enhancement products when I really think about... I mean, nearly every day I wake up, I shower, I dress, I walk out the door. The only thing I use to enhance my self is combing my hair and trimming my facial hair from time to time. I've always admired women who don't go overboard with the beauty products and are simply well groomed, and are not afraid to just walk out that door the same way I do.

I often find my self checking out those women much more because it's rarer than it should be....

*Bro fist*

Feel the same way.

 

[JasonUresti]

I get where you're coming from. But the term natural beauty is pretty simple in it's meaning to me and the people I've been around. If you don't have a history of cosmetic surgeries and injections you're all natural as far as I'm concerned.

Never been a big fan of make-up. Or push up bras. Or weaves/Hair extensions/Relaxers/perms. Or any of that garbage. Those late night infomercials selling products to hide or enhance a woman's assets has also always bothered me on a certain level.

I've never really been a big fan of any beauty enhancement products when I really think about... I mean, nearly every day I wake up, I shower, I dress, I walk out the door. The only thing I use to enhance my self is combing my hair and trimming my facial hair from time to time. I've always admired women who don't go overboard with the beauty products and are simply well groomed, and are not afraid to just walk out that door the same way I do.

I often find my self checking out those women much more because it's rarer than it should be....

Huzzah, sir. I agree completely.

 

[SmokyDave]

Fake tits, blonde hair, tan skin...she's basically the ideal woman.

Fixed.

 

[Laughing Banana]

Wow.

Incredible.

 

[dondarm]

Reasonable? When you compare cosmetic surgery to gender reassignment surgery you are not being reasonable.

Were you the one who made some argument about how we don't want them labeling themselves as us? Because that was uncalled for and complete bullshit..

Okay,which one was posted by Timedog?

 

[Devolution]

Okay,which one was posted by Timedog?

After that post I was linked what got him dat gray name for a while.

 

[GraveRobberX]

All I want to know is who does this harm?

Is the SANCTITY of Beauty Pageantry being attacked, just like marriage, and we need to hold the moral high ground and protect it

If the want to really have a Miss Universe, everyone form everywhere should be allowed:

That disqualified contestant is god damn gorgeous

As they say "I would" Pre or Post

Also this is done by Donal Trump company no?, he owns all the pageants doesn't he, the Teen, Mrs. America, Miss Universe
So you're at a disadvantage already with his belief coming into play and fucking it up for someone

Also most of the Beauty Contestants cheat like motherfuckers, through cheap tricks
Water Diet to keep weight down also get a shiny skin coat with different creams/lotions that are pricey as fuck, using high class $$$$ bronzer to show off their tone/physique, vaseline inside their mouth so their pearly white gleam like no fucking tomorrow (most have their teeth whitened, so white, it becomes fakes looking), many more

Don't they allow Boobie Implants now?

 

[Jarmel]

How did nobody notice this before the competition was underway? I mean are all the records burned or something?

 

[Brera]

This article has more pics http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/art...erse-Canada-pageant.html?ICO=most_read_module

like the fist of an angry god

No what that's a dude.

I refuse to believe.

REFUSE!

Someone said she'd be an 8 with better legs...looks top tier as is!

 

[Kabouter]

No what that's a dude.

I refuse to believe.

REFUSE!

Someone said she'd be an 8 with better legs...looks top tier as is!

She isn't a dude, she's a woman.

 

[confused]

If you needed medical assistance whatsoever to get your appearance(this goes for real women(lack of better term)too) you should be disqualified from these types of contests.

I see nothing wrong in this situation.

 

[Brera]

damn right

 

[Zaptruder]

I get where you're coming from. But the term natural beauty is pretty simple in it's meaning to me and the people I've been around. If you don't have a history of cosmetic surgeries and injections you're all natural as far as I'm concerned.

Never been a big fan of make-up. Or push up bras. Or weaves/Hair extensions/Relaxers/perms. Or any of that garbage. Those late night infomercials selling products to hide or enhance a woman's assets has also always bothered me on a certain level.

I've never really been a big fan of any beauty enhancement products when I really think about... I mean, nearly every day I wake up, I shower, I dress, I walk out the door. The only thing I use to enhance my self is combing my hair and trimming my facial hair from time to time. I've always admired women who don't go overboard with the beauty products and are simply well groomed, and are not afraid to just walk out that door the same way I do.

I often find my self checking out those women much more because it's rarer than it should be....

People like the *idea* of natural looks. It plays well to their concept of self, an under current theme that runs through society about purity and naturality.

In practice though, people generally prefer a degree of enhancement that is decidedly unnatural.

I mean it makes sense... people have a preference for a specific type. While the specific type can and does indeed occur naturally, far more are without the genetic gifts to be of that specific type.

Surgery and makeup are things that can get people closer towards that specificness... and if you didn't know, as in the case of good makeup and good surgery, then your preference for that enhanced individual would only be natural.

Of course, if they do a bad job of the makeup/surgery, then, oh well, there's still plenty enough people that don't give a shit about purity/naturalness.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqvYPL1d3UI&feature=player_detailpage#t=473s

Holy crapolas. They're huge! I mean tall. Or everyone else around them are just really short.

Surprisingly, also not the most attractive woman in that video.

 

[Forceatowulf]

She isn't a dude, she's a woman.

Well that's your opinion.

And she would indeed be top-Tier with better legs. I'm a leg man my self, so I know these things.

 

[SpiffyG]

Well that's your opinion.

And she would indeed be top-Tier with better legs. I'm a leg man my self, so I know these things.

I think it has less to do with opinion and more to do with respect.

 

[Jarmel]

If you needed medical assistance whatsoever to get your appearance(this goes for real women(lack of better term)too) you should be disqualified from these types of contests.

Exactly any sort of cosmetic surgery should automatically disqualify you.

 

[whitehawk]

Why?

Better question, whose fucking business is it as a way to disqualify someone?

The people who organize the contest? I'm not saying I agree with their decision, but they make the rules.

 

[confused]

Exactly any sort of cosmetic surgery should automatically disqualify you.

Not only surgery, any medical assistance. This covers everything from bleaching the teeth to hormone intake.

 

[Forceatowulf]

I think it has less to do with opinion and more to do with respect.

I personally agree with that completely. But at the same time I'm not going to tell a person who thinks she's still a man that they're wrong to believe that.

 

[Platy]

Body/Soul, Fake/Real Beauty AND transgender discussion on the same thread ?

popcorn.gif

But I love that this is a desqualificating factor ... it makes it look like an advantage that she has against the other girls ... wich in reality is more like the inverse.

Without knowing anything else,

Someone give her surgeon a prize. He does pretty good work.

Actualy ....

What a shame.

She's really pretty too:

That is a very bad boob job =P

If you needed medical assistance whatsoever to get your appearance(this goes for real women(lack of better term)too) you should be disqualified from these types of contests.

I see nothing wrong in this situation.

How about the fact that this is nowhere to be found in the rules ?

Not only surgery, any medical assistance. This covers everything from bleaching the teeth to hormone intake.

Got a flu ? I'm sooooo soooorryy, you had such a promising carreer =/

 

[SmokyDave]

That is a very good boob job =P

Fixed. Those bad boys look ready to play.

 

[CHEEZMO™]

Fixed.

When I saw that I was seriously gonna edit it to say "SmokyDave's" but you just had to get there first didn't you?

 

[twobear]

well, this is shitty

 

[SmokyDave]

When I saw that I was seriously gonna edit it to say "SmokyDave's" but you just had to get there first didn't you?

I could taste her boob-job all the way from Gaming side. Yummy.

 

[confused]

Got a flu ? I'm sooooo soooorryy, you had such a promising carreer =/

Yeah, and fucking vitamins too.

Please don't be obtuse, we were talking about medical assistance in aesthetic. How does cough medicine assist in your looks ?

 

[Zoe]

The problem I have with comments like this is that it isn't just surgery. Some transgirls have operations for things like re-shaping the bone structure of their faces or whatnot, but others are the way they are simply due to hormones and/or lucky genetics.

Jenna started hormone replacement therapy at the age of 14, meaning that she probably went through little to no male puberty. That would be far more responsible for her looks than any downstairs surgery—something that would do nothing for changing how passible she looks when you see her.

That's also what really makes this story worse in my mind—her transitioning in early puberty. If we want to make the argument that there's some "realness" scale, then she would certainly count as being more "real" due to that point.

Interesting. Thanks.

Edit: so hormone therapy alone can lead to her having wider hips, breasts, a slighter build, etc.?

Yes, slender build and everything else associated. In other words: you won't be able to tell, unless you examine her tanookie with a trained eye.

Couldn't it be argued that receiving hormone treatments would give a competitive advantage as well?

What if a biological female had taken hormones in puberty to grow larger breasts and curvier hips to match the pageant standard?

 

[dose]

Eh. You're talking about a pageant where the woman who wins has her eyebrows shaped, a brazilian wax, is wearing eye shadow, concealer, lipstick, blush, flattering lingerie, heels, and curled (or straightened) hair. I probably even left some shit out. But plastic surgery? That's too much? Really?

Yep, I'd say it was too. Physically changing features is a major step from putting some makeup on.

 

[lexi]

Yeah I wonder what's the point of disqualifying her, she should get a handicap if anything

 

[Inanna]

Eh. You're talking about a pageant where the woman who wins has her eyebrows shaped, a brazilian wax, is wearing eye shadow, concealer, lipstick, blush, flattering lingerie, heels, and curled (or straightened) hair. I probably even left some shit out. But plastic surgery? That's too much? Really?

Besides too much cakey make-up that most these contestants have to put on can also contribute to the whole "The plastic surgery" look, you don't have to go under the knife to look like you did.

 

[The Faceless Master]

wow, she's pretty hot. add like 10lbs and she's be smokin'! i guess starting hormone therapy at 14 was a big factor in her success. i still remember that other thread where people were upset at the parents over delaying their child's puberty.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

well you're one step ahead of JBaird then.

What are you even talking about?

 

[SquiddyCracker]

As someone else stated, protest against the discrimination against the pregnant women aswell, shit there is no greater display of a woman than a pregnant woman ...... it is the distillment of womanhood.

Totally gotta disagree with you there buddy, as the implication of that would be that a woman who chose not to, or cannot, become pregnant isn't as much of a woman as someone that is

On the whole "it's their contest, their rules", I think it's a bit of red herring. Of course they have the choice to set up their own arbitrary rules, but people don't at all have to accept it and can through public outcry and demands of change influence the contest runners.

When you say that it is their rules, their contest, it looks like a very defeatist attitude.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Please don't be obtuse, we were talking about medical assistance in aesthetic. How does cough medicine assist in your looks ?

You argued "teeth whitening" was unacceptable.

How do you feel about people brushing their teeth? Or going to the dentist and getting regular cleanings? Or using over-the-counter teeth whiteners? Or when a kid trips up and cracks off a tooth and gets a veneer? Or getting fillings in cavities? All of these contribute to the cosmetic appearance of the teeth, and they're all optional behaviours (although we should certainly hope people brush their teeth!)

 

[confused]

You argued "teeth whitening" was unacceptable.

How do you feel about people brushing their teeth? Or going to the dentist and getting regular cleanings? Or using over-the-counter teeth whiteners? Or when a kid trips up and cracks off a tooth and gets a veneer? Or getting fillings in cavities? All of these contribute to the cosmetic appearance of the teeth, and they're all optional behaviours.

Wow, talk about taking arguments to extremes.

Yeah, most of those will be done by normal people, too and are mostly part of regular dental hygiene, nothing wrong with that. But if you go to a dentist and bleach your teeth just a few days before the pageant it's on the same level as padding your bra. It's wrong. Normal people don't do that.

Also, I have nothing against people wearing retainers to straighten their teeth.

 

[Steelrain]

What are you even talking about?

He's talking about your "ly dow" joke. Unless you actually misspelled "down".

In that case, he's refrencing the Jbaird thread and assuming you know what that is.

 

[GoldenEye 007]

He's talking about your "ly dow" joke. Unless you actually misspelled "down".

In that case, he's refrencing the Jbaird thread and assuming you know what that is.

Oh, I know that ly dow came from GAF. But I don't remember the circumstances behind it or anything.

I just remember someone posting it and everyone going crazy over it.

 

[Stumpokapow]

Wow, talk about taking arguments to extremes.

Yeah, most of those will be done by normal people, too and are mostly part of regular dental hygiene, nothing wrong with that. But if you go to a dentist and bleach your teeth just a few days before the pageant it's on the same level as padding your bra. It's wrong. Normal people don't do that.

Also, I have nothing against people wearing retainers to straighten their teeth.

This basically sounds like you've made a decision about what you think is normal based on the things that you do or have done, and other things are abnormal.

Ask your dentist whether or not teeth whitening is common, and I suspect she or he will say that amongst some groups of people--businessmen, politicians, models, actors, pretty much anyone who makes a living based in part on their personal image--it is. The existence of cut-rate over-the-counter whiteners like Crest Whitestrips makes this even more obvious.

 

[confused]

This basically sounds like you've made a decision about what you think is normal based on the things that you do or have done, and other things are abnormal.Ask your dentist whether or not teeth whitening is common, and I suspect she or he will say that amongst some groups of people--businessmen, politicians, models, actors, pretty much anyone who makes a living based in part on their personal image--it is. The existence of cut-rate over-the-counter whiteners like Crest Whitestrips makes this even more obvious.

Why yes, it's called an opinion.....

Let me re-iterate that for you : I am of the opinion that if you use medical assistance to improve your looks for a contest based on appearance you are cheating. Much like athletes that use performace enhancing drugs to enhance their performance in contests that are based on performance are cheating

 

[TouchMyBox]

Am I the only one who read the thread title and thought "why is there controversy about someone getting rewarded with Dairy Queen"?

 

[Log4Girlz]

I'm against people trimming their toe nails. What?

 

[CHEEZMO™]

I'm against people trimming their toe nails. What?

I bite mine.

 

[Platy]

Yeah, and fucking vitamins too.

Please don't be obtuse, we were talking about medical assistance in aesthetic. How does cough medicine assist in your looks ?

You can look like SHIT when you have some fever =P

Also, symmetric faces (a classic example of beauty) is strongly tied to a healthy appearence

Hell, even sleepping poorly can destroy the way you look =P

 

[Gregorn]

Guys you shouldn't need to worry about this at all, it's just a beauty competition, which are inherently wrong to begin with.