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Miyamoto: DS wireless Internet a possibility

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Mashing said:
802.11 running in infrastructure mode DOES require a WAP... Ad-hoc does not... which is what the PSP is using.

You can't run in ad-hoc mode to connect to the internet... with the DS or the PSP. I don't think we know for sure what mode they are running in right now.

Adhoc is eqivalent to peer-to-peer networking
Infrastructure is equivalent to connection to a cable/dsl router to connect the outside world.

This is based on my, admittedly, limited knowledge of wireless networking. I've used it a little bit at work, but not very often. Perhaps someone a little more knowledgable with wireless networks can step in and clarify.

PSP willbe able to use both ad-hoc and infrastructure mode: most WiFi cards can do that too (a simple checkbox).

So should DS, but if Miyamoto's comment is true then nintendo will not enable Infrastructure by default.

If one device you are connected to using ad-hoc has direct access to the Web, you should be able to go online.

Example: if you have a Pc connected to another PC through a cross-over cable and the other PC is connected to a Cable Modem/Router then you can use a Software Router like Internet Connection Sharing (ICS) to go on the web with both PCs IIRC.
 
UFC PRIDE said:
It says connect to the Internet - not other DS's - and Nintendo made a big deal out of connecting DS's at E3. He's just speaking of the INTERNET.

So I guess I missed the part about how a DS player in New York City is going to connect with a DS player in LA without using the internet...
 

kaching

"GAF's biggest wanker"
UFC PRIDE said:
It says connect to the Internet - not other DS's
You won't be able to connect to other DS's beyond 100 ft without connecting to the Internet first...unless Nintendo or some 3rd party affiliate is planning a private network of some sort. Still, you'll have to connect to some network to access DS's outside of your immediate 100 ft vicinity.

and Nintendo made a big deal out of connecting DS's at E3. He's just speaking of the INTERNET.
We'll have to see what develops then, but "just" speaking of the INTERNET encompasses much more than just web browsing - email, FTP, bitorrent, HTTP, online gaming, etc..
 

fart

Savant
"We added the wireless LAN (IEEE802.11) to the DS mainly for the handhelds to communicate between each other," said Miyamoto. "But if someone releases appropriate software that allows it to connect to wireless LAN access points, it could also be used to connect to the Internet."
in order to "play with people from different time zones" you're going to have to hit an access point. if they're only planning ad-hoc DS networks with a proprietary nintendo protocol, you will NOT be able to play with anyone farther than say 500 feet. once again, nintendo abandons strategy for stupidity
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
UFC PRIDE said:
It says connect to the Internet - not other DS's - and Nintendo made a big deal out of connecting DS's at E3. He's just speaking of the INTERNET.

Listen again and read my lips:

But if someone releases appropriate software that allows it to connect to wireless LAN access points

You cannot go beyond 100 ft without using Wireless Bridges (which do extend the Wireless LAN effectively) or Wireless Access Points/HotSpots *which allow the device to send data through the web to connect to other devices which are connected to a HotSpot and are in other locations).

Unless you plan to have tons of Wireless Bridges laying around the country, without the possibility of using a Wireless Access Point/HotSpot in infrastructure mode then you are limited to using the device in ad-hoc mode.
 

Mashing

Member
Panajev2001a said:
PSP willbe able to use both ad-hoc and infrastructure mode: most WiFi cards can do that too (a simple checkbox).

So should DS, but if Miyamoto's comment is true then nintendo will not enable Infrastructure by default.

If one device you are connected to using ad-hoc has direct access to the Web, you should be able to go online.

Example: if you have a Pc connected to another PC through a cross-over cable and the other PC is connected to a Cable Modem/Router then you can use a Software Router like Internet Connection Sharing (ICS) to go on the web with both PCs IIRC.

Thank you... I remember that now. So basically if you want to go online you need to hook it up to your network that has internet access (much like the PS2 is now).
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
StrikerObi said:
So I guess I missed the part about how a DS player in New York City is going to connect with a DS player in LA without using the internet...

Did you miss Reggie stating they were going to drop 20,000+ Wireless Bridges from the East coast to the West Coast ?
 

fart

Savant
pana, the one situation we haven't considered is that the DS could be set up to tunnel a proprietary transport proto over IP, and that he means the DS won't deal in IP by default because they don't want to expose nintendo's grandiosity to the dirty internet.

however i've decided to be pesimistic so chances are it will be ad-hoc and stupid.

honestly i think it's more likely that they're coming up with these hairbrained schemes day by day and have NO roadmap on what they will accomplish by when. it would definitely explain the back and forth on gamecube networking. i just can't believe they're making the same mistakes going into the next generation.
 

Mashing

Member
Wouldn't Nintendo had to file a patent for a new proprietary protocol? Has anything like that been filled recently?
 

fart

Savant
only if it's novel and they want to protect it. "a tunneling network protocol over IP for amusement software" is hardly novel though.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
fart said:
pana, the one situation we haven't considered is that the DS could be set up to tunnel a proprietary transport proto over IP, and that he means the DS won't deal in IP by default because they don't want to expose nintendo's grandiosity to the dirty internet.

however i've decided to be pesimistic so chances are it will be ad-hoc and stupid.

I think Miyamoto is just being a bit confusing:

He does not mean that the DS cannot connect to Wireless Access Points/HotSpots in order to connect to other DS consoles world-wide, he just means that they will not ahve software that allows you to do more than that.

Thsi is not what you read in the quote, this is what you assume he would have wanted to say if you believe that the DS will be able to connect to Access Points/HotSpots and not only other DS consoles in ad-hoc mode.
 

Memles

Member
Admittedly, in first reading this all I thought was web browsing...my reason is that he talks about add-ons, and I can't really think of a reason an add-on was needed. Yes, they'd have to code software to take advantage of it, but what would a hardware add-on do? Can anyone help a generally unknowing guy out and explain what sort of add-on would be needed?

Of course, it could very well be translated oddly. But right now, I'm trying to figure out what exactly this all means.

So...100ft radius for Wireless Multiplayer Gaming? Then what is the Hotspots all about? What exactly does that help? I had thought the 100 was just bluetooth-style, whereas the Local Area Network was more of a hotspot online thingy.

It's all a convoluted mess right now.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
fart said:
only if it's novel and they want to protect it. "a tunneling network protocol over IP for amusement software" is hardly novel though.

What is the point though of a tunnelling protocol over IP ?

It would only be the point if they do plan for the DS to connect to Wireless Access Points/HotSpots in which case Miyamoto was mis-translated/confused.
 

fart

Savant
read my update pana. i really think their plan for this is pretty much ad-hoc. some executives are sitting in boardrooms in seattle going "wouldn't it be great if DS users could instant message each other????!!!" and so someone talks to NOJ and NOJ goes "eh, erm, eh" and so on. so iwata gives an interview and he just has to come up with shit off the top of his head about what the DS can and can't do, because what they have at this point is hardware and games in development, and that's about it.

...unless you have a copy of the DS dev manual that might clear this up
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Memles said:
Admittedly, in first reading this all I thought was web browsing...my reason is that he talks about add-ons, and I can't really think of a reason an add-on was needed. Yes, they'd have to code software to take advantage of it, but what would a hardware add-on do? Can anyone help a generally unknowing guy out and explain what sort of add-on would be needed?

Of course, it could very well be translated oddly. But right now, I'm trying to figure out what exactly this all means.

So...100ft radius for Wireless Multiplayer Gaming? Then what is the Hotspots all about? What exactly does that help? I had thought the 100 was just bluetooth-style, whereas the Local Area Network was more of a hotspot online thingy.

It's all a convoluted mess right now.

Bluetooth would go less than 100 ft while WiFi normally goes from 100 to 500-600 ft.

Without an Access Point/HotSpot you cannot use the internet to carry your data further, but you need to extend the area of the Wireless Lan using Wireless Bridges.
 

fart

Savant
Panajev2001a said:
What is the point though of a tunnelling protocol over IP ?

It would only be the point if they do plan for the DS to connect to Wireless Access Points/HotSpots in which case Miyamoto was mis-translated/confused.
most public access points will only route IP. if DS's will be able to connect to access points in infrastructure mode such that they can contact other DS's worldwide they will most likely have to handle IP. now, if they don't want to deal in standards (which nintendo is known for not liking) they'll have to tunnel over IP. the reason for this would be to provide a nice library or simplified development system for DS developers, who nintendo tends to assume are idiots.

eta: route ip to the internet? god i'm tired
 

Memles

Member
Panajev2001a said:
Bluetooth would go less than 100 ft while WiFi normally goes from 100 to 500-600 ft.

Without an Access Point/HotSpot you cannot use the internet to carry your data further, but you need to extend the area of the Wireless Lan using Wireless Bridges.

Merci...so in other words...I still have no fucking clue what Miyamoto is actually insinuating.
Fuck.

Ah well.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
fart said:
most public access points will only route IP to the internet. if DS's will be able to connect to access points in infrastructure mode such that they can contact other DS's worldwide they will most likely have to handle IP. now, if they don't want to deal in standards (which nintendo is known for not liking) they'll have to tunnel over IP. the reason for this would be to provide a nice library or simplified development system for DS developers, who nintendo tends to assume are idiots.

So, they need software to do the tunnel and how can they be suire that people have Wireless Access Point that are compatible with their approach ? Unless you could configure the Access Point yourself then you would be in trouble trying to find a compatible Nintendo Access Point.

It could work as Nintendo could collaborate with lots of providers and get them to add this tunnel to their configuration and make easy guides for home users.

That is still a stupid idea when you can just implement standard IP routing.
 

fart

Savant
actually one benefit of going with a proprietary protocol (other than simplicity) is that you can control how the IP part of the equation is done very strictly so that it will be as compatible as possible. a well designed tunnel won't have a problem with any of the wireless "routers" or APs currently on the market. the biggest problem is handling NAT and firewalling, something much harder to regulate per game developer than just solving the problem once and having everyone use your solution.

if they DIDN'T tunnel they would have a major compatibility problem. if they come up with a solid protocol and release standard libraries to developers that handles IP translation, they should be able to ensure that games tend to work. of course, they're going to have to come up with some kind of network infrastructure on top of this. a nintendo matching service and whatnot, but that's why i'm pessimistic about it all. it's must easier for them to put the thing in ad-hoc mode and let the DS's handshake with each other and what? you want to play with your friend in japan? better hop on a plane buddy

note i'm presentin this as a possible solution because nintendo is all about control. they would never just give developers a set of IP libraries and say "go crazy". never. if they do i'll eat my sock.
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Fart,

I disagree.

Assuming you have a Wireless Access Point with DHCP and SSID being broad-casted and no WEP encription: I can take any WiFi card compatible (that is a mattero of standards... 802.11a/g/b) and connect to that freeWan and go online with the connection in infrastructure mode and a proper TCP(UDP)/IP stack in the DS.

//NAT and Firewalling issues remain for both approaches, proprietary tunnelling or not.

If there is WEP and no SSID broadcasted ( say it is my own network ) I can just imput them.

How would you tunnel with the proprietary DS solution if you cannot configure the Access Point manually ?

That plus the fact that Nintendo would have to come up with their own LIVE service make for a big "mmmmmmmhhhhhhh".
 
I've been doing alot of thinking about the reasons Nintendo has decided not to go online with the GC. What came to mine is add-ons, also the design of the GC. I thought of communication(voice), releasing a headset, broadband modem and where would the headset connect on the console.

Xbox Live service was into production before the console released and the controller, console were designed with online gaming as a main factor of their business model. The PS2/GC wasn't designed with online gaming as a main factor but Sony got involved any way because they do fear MS, they didn't want MS to have an advantage.

Nintendo could of went with a wireless headset but it would cost to much for the consumer. I don't think the majority console gamers are into typing while playing online. I just don't see how with the design of the GC where they would be able to connect a headset with out it being a hassle.

If Nintendo go back to putting the memory card slots or just put a head set connection on the controller and the necessary hardware in the controllers so that the voice could decoded, going online for Nintendo may be a possiblity.

Going online on the DS will be add-on free, its also designed to be online ready.

Why didn't Sega create their on headset?(PSO1/2 GC)
 

jedimike

Member
OG_Original Gamer said:
Going online on the DS will be add-on free, its also designed to be online ready.

It isn't add-on free... that's what me and pana and others are saying. You have to have a wireless access point to game online. Without that the formula doesn't work and you are limited to the inherent range (~100ft) of 802.11b/g.

I'm taking Iwata's words at face value... meaning that DS will have wireless gaming but not online gaming. He has said before that online gaming is too complicated and expensive for the consumer. Having a wireless connection makes online gaming no less complicated or expensive.
 
jedimike said:
It isn't add-on free... that's what me and pana and others are saying. You have to have a wireless access point to game online. Without that the formula doesn't work and you are limited to the inherent range (~100ft) of 802.11b/g.

I'm taking Iwata's words at face value... meaning that DS will have wireless gaming but not online gaming. He has said before that online gaming is too complicated and expensive for the consumer. Having a wireless connection makes online gaming no less complicated or expensive.

What I meant is that there's no need to buy a ethernet card, as with case for the GC and PS2.
 

Chittagong

Gold Member
fart said:
honestly i think it's more likely that they're coming up with these hairbrained schemes day by day and have NO roadmap on what they will accomplish by when. it would definitely explain the back and forth on gamecube networking. i just can't believe they're making the same mistakes going into the next generation.

I couldn't have said it better myself. No roadmap.

So, my interpretation of the situation is:

(1) What LAN is to GameCube, WLAN is to DS
(2) In other words, Nintendo supports close-range multiplayer only
(3) That said, developers are free to do long-range at their own risk
(4) "Smash World" type of global online setups for Mario Tennis etc. remain fanboy wet dreams.
(5) All criticisms aside, N-Gage is still the only console proven to be able to do Global Wireless Online gaming
 
Also Reggie said it himself, during conference he said, you would beable to play across different timezones. If thats not online gaming then I don't know what is.
 

Buggy Loop

Gold Member
OG_Original Gamer said:
Also Reggie said it himself, during conference he said, you would beable to play across different timezones. If thats not online gaming then I don't know what is.

Shhh, let them be in their bubble ;)
 
Nitpicking the wording of Japanese-to-English translations has a great history of leading to 100% correct analysis, yes?


OG_Original Gamer said:
Also Reggie said it himself, during conference he said, you would beable to play across different timezones. If thats not online gaming then I don't know what is.
Well, if we sit in the right spot we could play a game on the same console and be in separate time zones. :) Of course that is not what Reggie was talking about.
 

jedimike

Member
Buggy Loop said:
Shhh, let them be in their bubble ;)

difficult times are these... who to believe?

Reggie, some PR guy, at E3 May 12th 2004 or....

Miyamoto, the fucking guy making the games, 7/12/2004

Choose your bubble BL.
 
OG_Original Gamer said:
Also Reggie said it himself, during conference he said, you would beable to play across different timezones. If thats not online gaming then I don't know what is.
find a timezone and stand one guy 50 ft on each side...

how exactly would the DS find other DS clients online without some kind of centralized server? magic?

nintendo isn't gonna spend that kind of money on online
 

Panajev2001a

GAF's Pleasant Genius
Buggy Loop said:
Shhh, let them be in their bubble ;)

Buggy, I said that maybe Miyamoto was confused/misunderstood and this statement might not reflect the reality of online gaming on the DS.
 
This news disappoints, but does not surprise me. If more 3rd parties give online play a shot than the GC, it won't bother me too much. There's still decent offline multiplayer, which is what I was probably going to use moreso anyways.

Ah well. PSP definitely wins in this case.
 
jedimike said:
difficult times are these... who to believe?

Reggie, head PR guy, at E3 May 12th 2004 in plain English or....

Miyamoto, the fucking guy producing the games, in an unclear comment translated from Japanese-to-English 7/12/2004

Choose your bubble BL.

Fixed.


These comments don't seem to change anything as we already knew it.

"We added the wireless LAN (IEEE802.11) to the DS mainly for the handhelds to communicate between each other," said Miyamoto. "But if someone releases appropriate software that allows it to connect to wireless LAN access points, it could also be used to connect to the Internet."
English-to-English translation: We intended the DS to be used to connect with other DSes. But if the software uses the wireless LAN access points, nothing prevents them from doing other things online.

“The one thing we don’t want to do is to add this and that and every connection and capability [to the DS]. We want to make the DS enjoyable, by itself, as far as we can."
English-to-English translation: Look, we're not going to build in web browsers, IRC clients, and Trillian. Our focus is on natively DS games.
 

GDGF

Soothsayer
Isn't he saying pretty much what we've known all along? That to play on the internet, you would need access through a wireless hot spot?
 
JoshuaJSlone said:
English-to-English translation: We intended the DS to be used to connect with other DSes. But if the software uses the wireless LAN access points, nothing prevents them from doing other things online.


English-to-English translation: Look, we're not going to build in web browsers, IRC clients, and Trillian. Our focus is on natively DS games.



True nuff. Really not sure where everyone getting the doom n gloom stance from...
 

Keio

For a Finer World
True nuff. Really not sure where everyone getting the doom n gloom stance from...
Hey, it's Nintendo! It's d00m3d! They'll suck this winter! They have no good games! They can't implement online gameplay!

Or maybe it's just insecurity that makes it hard to face the fact that Nintendo has once again managed to bring something new and interesting into portable gaming.
 
Mashing said:
HETEROGENOUS GOODS!

trumpcardholo.jpg
 
Ahem. Here's a more accurate translation courtesy of Kitsune via another forum:

Question: Its more of a question of technology than as a game fan, but according to what the announcement said, that DS will also support a wireless LAN standard (IEEE802.11), you could say it can be used to connect to the net as well.

Miyamoto: That's right. Well, for Nintendo, we're definitely thinking about the subject of connecting DSes, but if something that interacted with an OS or application came out, because it can also connect to your home's wireless LAN, there's also the possibility of using it as an internet computer terminal.

Question: If some maker wanted to use the DS to connect to the internet, the machine's specs would be enough to handle it.


Miyamoto: Technologically, its a possibility. But, well, as Nintendo has said until now, "if you don't use that, you can't do this," "unless you have this one of these, then it's a no-go," that type of thing, as much as possible, we don't want to do. As much as we can, we want to do it so you can have fun, if you just buy the machine and that's all you need to have a new play experience. And in that way, we had many more ideas that crammed in more functions, but after all, we were coming from a feeling of wanting to sell it at, "A suitable price for playing." It settled down to the types of things we announced.

When accurately translated, it sure sounds to me like he's talking about Internet was in www and email.
 
Traumahound said:
When accurately translated, it sure sounds to me like he's talking about Internet was in www and email.
That sounds a little closer to what I saw at 1101. This makes it pretty clear.
 

GDGF

Soothsayer
You should all be ashamed of yourselves :p

(as Kitsune proves his posts worth reading, even across forums)
 

TekunoRobby

Tag of Excellence
I'm very glad I initially ignored this thread.

I will still kill if I don't get an online-enabled Animal Crossing however. Blood raining from the skies, bodies strewn about the streets, victims yelling in horror. That type of stuff.
 

ge-man

Member
Lost Weekend said:
You should all be ashamed of yourselves :p

(as Kitsune proves his posts worth reading, even across forums)

It will only get worse the closer we come towards the DS's launch.

off topic--Why in the hell is Kitsune not posting on the GAF anymore?
 
D

Deleted member 284

Unconfirmed Member
Question. I'm being lazy and not reading this thread. But did anyone think/imply that the DS would be harder to go online rather than the PSP? Or that the DS would require more hardware?
 
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