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MMA-GAF |OT5| Father Time Is Undefeated

alr1ght

bish gets all the credit :)
The hammer is being dropped tomorrow. :)

http://middleeasy.com/fighting/item/14925-the-ufc-being-sued-by-a-coalition-of-former-fighters

CCxETrG.png
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
Which is why I'm actually kind of surprised we don't see more Mitrione's. There's gotta be plenty of guys who can only hack a few seasons of the NFL (if that) who still want to hit people for a living.

It's not the hitting people that matters, it's the getting hit back. :p

But yeah, I would consider the only real options for future heavyweight stars being:

1) American Football or Rugby players who fail to make the grade and want to still be an athlete.
2) Heavyweight college wrestlers who don't mind being punched in the face.
3) The odd crazy natural athlete like Jon Jones who doesn't want to do a conventional sport.
4) LHWs and MWs who don't like the taste of broccoli and distilled water.
5) Samoans.
6) Bad MMA never die.
 

MjFrancis

Member
But making the practice squad in the NFL isn't exactly the easiest thing in the world either. I can see why a lot of athletes can give up and pursue careers elsewhere. I for one would love fighter pay to get a nice bump not cause I care about the fighters' welfare but moreso it can attract greater athletes to the sport.
Which is why I'm actually kind of surprised we don't see more Mitrione's. There's gotta be plenty of guys who can only hack a few seasons of the NFL (if that) who still want to hit people for a living.
One of the problems may be that these potential UFC HW candidates get a 4 year education too. If their NFL dreams die they still have a middling white-collar job offer to fall back on that still earns them more money than Uncle Dana is willing to pay them.

Industrian has a lot of good counterpoints as well, but that just goes to show you why they have anyone in the UFC HW division at all.
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
One of the problems may be that these potential UFC HW candidates get a 4 year education too. If their NFL dreams die they still have a middling white-collar job offer to fall back on that still earns them more money than Uncle Dana is willing to pay them.

It's not even "NFL dreams". Look at Cole Konrad. Amazing wrestler and showed signs of developing into a great MMA fighter. But after fighting 7 times in 2010 (when he made his debut), he fought just once in 2011 and once in 2012 and then decided to retire and sell milk on the stock market or some shit because that way he'd actually get some money. I blamed Bjorn for criminally overlooking the Bellator HW division for this, but after reading an interview with Konrad he was a bit uncomfortable with being an MMA fighter, and didn't really like the entertainment side of things (ironic considering he trained with Brock) and, like you said, he had an education to fall back on as well.

The funny side of this is that I trained with a guy who gave up a high-paying job as an investment banker to become an MMA fighter. He's now 5-1 and fights in ONE FC.
 

iddqd

Member
Machida is fighting this weekend! He is fighting.....C.B. Dollaway.... in the main event.....

Wow. Here I am thinking they were done for the year when this barn burner comes around the corner.
It also has Eric Silva crushing someone without a Wiki page, and the weight cut killer Barão.
Oh and Starbuck's own Patrick Cummings is also back.

Good card for the second monitor if nothing else is going on.
 
UFC HW division talent will never rise above mediocrity until they start seriously paying these people. You'd make $107,100 being on an NFL practice squad for a year, while the UFC is generous enough to offer 8k/8k for your first few fights. If you're lucky you'd get 12k/12k or 15k/15k, but don't count on it. These are realistic minimums, though one could argue that since these are professional sports we should use the NFL roster minimum of 420k for comparison.

If you are a collegiate athlete a UFC career is likely not very high on your list of aspirations.


with the way the UFC pays I'm surprised ANY reasonably good athletes of any size focus on MMA. Even the Alpha Male guys could probably find more lucrative careers as jockeys.
 

VoxPop

Member
Hah I'm semi excited for all the shit they're going to dig up on Dana White via this lawsuit. He's done a fantastic job bringing up the UFC from obscurity but I think its about time he steps down and lets someone a little more respectable run the company from here on out. Coker running the UFC? I'm in.

Or bring in Jerry Millen of course
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
Am I missing something? Are they suing UFC because the other MMA organizations were too poorly run to stay afloat and compete with UFC? Uh. Ok.

From my understanding it's that MMA fighters are basically screwed out of money and career options because of the UFC. They control everything, they crush any competition to them, and they (ab)use their position as a monopoly on MMA competition to make fighters fight for less money.

I'm sure this lawsuit won't lead to anything, but it'll be fun to watch.
 
The only argument that I could see is the one about suppressing income by disallowing outside sponsorship.

Saying the UFC has a monopoly overall, while it may technically be true, would open up other sports to such claims as most professional sports have one league that is dominant (NFL, NHL, NBA, etc...). Even if these organizations escape the straight Monopoly claim by use of teams.. that's still collusion of some sort.

Unless Zuffa is the owner of a lot more organizations than I'm aware of (which they could very well be), the monopoly claim seems excessive. Could've maybe had an argument before the WSOF was created.
 

alr1ght

bish gets all the credit :)
The only argument that I could see is the one about suppressing income by disallowing outside sponsorship.

Saying the UFC has a monopoly overall, while it may technically be true, would open up other sports to such claims as most professional sports have one league that is dominant (NFL, NHL, NBA, etc...). Even if these organizations escape the straight Monopoly claim by use of teams.. that's still collusion of some sort.

Those leagues also have players unions and get paid very well.
 

Gr1mLock

Passing metallic gas
Its going to be interesting to see how much dirt this kicks up. But how do you embarrass a company who pays their fighters 3k.
 
Those leagues also have players unions and get paid very well.

True enough with regards to Unions. Has UFC/Zuffa been union busting fighters previous efforts? And other sports seem to make a lot more money which affords the ability to pay players that well. The closest analogue of Boxers have a huge discrepancy between highest and lowest paid.. much larger a gap than the UFC has. They also risk signing to promotions that don't get them enough fights or the right fights to actually have a decent shot at a career.

What about other fighting organizations(i.e. Kickboxing)? What's their pay like in comparison?
 

Heel

Member
Well, I'm about half way in and I can already tell you that UFC does not want this to see a jury.

For example, the UFC negotiated a deal with THQ, Inc. for the development of a UFC video game. Zuffa required its athletes, for no compensation, to assign exclusively and in perpetuity their likeness rights for video game use. Fighters who wished to negotiate this request were terminated, including Plaintiff Jon Fitch. White also publicly threatened all MMA Fighters, even those not under contract with Zuffa with a permanent ban from competing in the UFC if the Fighter chose to sign with EA Sports.

Additionally, following his victory over Matt Hughes in a welterweight title bout that had been promoted by the UFC, UFC Fighter B.J. Penn informed the UFC that he planned to sign with an actual or potential rival promotion company for a much higher payday than UFC was then offering. In response, the UFC’s Dana White called Penn and threatened that the UFC would ban Penn from fighting for the UFC forever if Penn worked with another promoter. White told Penn that Penn was “f***ing done! You’ll never fight in the UFC again! You’re finished. You’re scorched earth, motherf***er. Scorched earth. Don’t call me crying saying you want to come back because your f***ing done!” White also threatened to remove or blur Penn’s face from UFC videos and promotions and said he would remove his bout with Hughes from the UFC’s DVD library so that Penn “would be forgotten.”
 

dream

Member
"in or about January 2014, [UFC] added provisions—such as, e.g., the “unilateral demotion-in-pay” provision which resets a Fighter’s pay to lower purse levels if a given UFC Fighter loses a bout, and additional restrictions on sponsorship rights—that further enhanced the UFC’s control over its Fighters."

That's so fucked up if true.
 

Heel

Member
I just finished reading. The vast majority of allegations in the complaint are public knowledge or quotes from interviews. A few tidbits that I wasn't aware of, though:

As a result of the UFC’s dominance in the Relevant Markets and as part of its exclusionary scheme, the UFC imposes exclusivity provisions into its physical venue agreements that severely limit, and in some cases remove altogether, the ability of any would-be competitor to hold MMA events at premier venues in the U.S. For example, before and continuing through the Class Period, the UFC has intentionally inserted provisions into its agreements with event venues that prohibit the venues from staging live Elite Professional MMA events promoted by a would-be UFC rival promoter within a specified time either before or after a UFC event at the venue. Throughout the Class Period, the UFC has entered into such exclusionary provisions with top event venues along the Las Vegas Strip and elsewhere. Intending to shut out actual or potential rivals with these “black out” provisions in its venue contracts, the UFC has, for example, staggered its events in such venues along the Las Vegas Strip so that no would-be rival promoter can hold live Elite Professional MMA Promotions anywhere along the Las Vegas Strip—some of the most important and profitable venues for MMA events in the world. As a result of the UFC’s exclusionary conduct, competing MMA Promotions are therefore forced to use second-rate venues, thereby inhibiting their ability to promote successful and profitable events, sell tickets and merchandise, secure major television distribution outlets, attract Elite Professional MMA Fighters, and otherwise generate revenues from MMA events.

HDNet Fights. HDNet Fights was founded in 2007 by billionaire owner of the Dallas Mavericks and HDNet founder, Mark Cuban. HDNet Fights briefly promoted its own live Professional MMA bouts. By 2009, the UFC had forced Cuban to shut down and, instead, become a bondholder in Zuffa.

Anyone thinking this is a groundless hit job or without merit should just read the complaint. It's a pretty damning argument, IMO.
 
I knew UFC was shady as fuck but reading all this is really depressing. Hard to continue to support a company like this. (I will though because I'm weak)

Well, I'm about half way in and I can already tell you that UFC does not want this to see a jury.

Don’t call me crying saying you want to come back because your f***ing done!” White also threatened to remove or blur Penn’s face from UFC videos and promotions and said he would remove his bout with Hughes from the UFC’s DVD library so that Penn “would be forgotten.”

I hate to defend Tito but they did this shit to him. Until just recently they would put up LHW historical stats and completely scrub his accomplishments.
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
What about other fighting organizations(i.e. Kickboxing)? What's their pay like in comparison?

It doesn't matter if you're UFC, Glory, a boxer, kickboxer or even a WWE wrestler. Combat sports pay is shit unless you're a superstar. But I would imagine that entry-level UFC contracts probably pay more than the majority of entry-level fighter contracts.

What's damaging for the UFC though is there is no universal pay. One potential fix for this is a guaranteed monthly salary (separate from show money and win bonuses). But then you're opening a can of worms regarding how you grade that monthly salary (as the UFC rankings are fugazi) and how to judge eligibility for that salary and whether or not being inactive would disqualify you from it. That and some fighters may be so cozy with this salary that they don't actually want to fight.

Done right this could not only pay fighters enough to hold proper camps, to fight on a regular basis and to make all of the damage they're doing to their bodies worthwhile. But I don't trust the UFC to implement anything of this sort in a structured and sensible way.
 
I just finished reading. The vast majority of allegations in the complaint are public knowledge or quotes from interviews. A few tidbits that I wasn't aware of, though:





Anyone thinking this is a groundless hit job or without merit should just read the complaint. It's a pretty damning argument, IMO.

That stuff sounds like it could definitely be Anti-trust violations. That stuff about HDNet Fights sound like conjecture but I suppose if they're making that claim, they have some evidence to back it up.

Overall though it sounds like the case would effect other promotions more than it effects the fighters. Are they trying to make the argument that because other organizations don't have a bigger marketshare due to these practices, fighter pay is defacto lower than it would be? Something like that hinges on the assumption that other organizations would pay better if they were more successful, which I'm not sure is true for the vast majority of fighters.

It doesn't matter if you're UFC, Glory, a boxer, kickboxer or even a WWE wrestler. Combat sports pay is shit unless you're a superstar. But I would imagine that entry-level UFC contracts probably pay more than the majority of entry-level fighter contracts.

What's damaging for the UFC though is there is no universal pay. One potential fix for this is a guaranteed monthly salary (separate from show money and win bonuses). But then you're opening a can of worms regarding how you grade that monthly salary (as the UFC rankings are fugazi) and how to judge eligibility for that salary and whether or not being inactive would disqualify you from it. That and some fighters may be so cozy with this salary that they don't actually want to fight.

Done right this could not only pay fighters enough to hold proper camps, to fight on a regular basis and to make all of the damage they're doing to their bodies worthwhile. But I don't trust the UFC to implement anything of this sort in a structured and sensible way.

This is interesting information. Thanks for posting it. Out of the examples you've listed the only Org that salaries like that is WWE right? But that's considered entertainment rather than sport as the outcomes are pre-determined. I'm not sure how exactly this lawsuit is going to help these fighters get paid better if comparable positions in other combat sports don't pay as well on average. This thing may damage the UFC but could also open up other organizations to similar lawsuits that could be even more damaging to them. We'll see how it pans out though.
 
I just finished reading. The vast majority of allegations in the complaint are public knowledge or quotes from interviews. A few tidbits that I wasn't aware of, though:





Anyone thinking this is a groundless hit job or without merit should just read the complaint. It's a pretty damning argument, IMO.

That first example, regarding the venues, won't amount to anything. It's perfectly legal.

Concert promoters, acts, and venues have been exploiting so-called "radius clauses" for years which are much more restrictive than what the UFC seems to be doing. The Harlem Globetrotters, Ringling Bros. Circus and others have also used similar venue clauses as the UFC (restricting venues 8 weeks before and 4 weeks after) for decades. Those contracts have come under examination from various entities like states' AGs' offices many times, and have never been successfully defeated. UFC did not create this system, they are mearly following the lead of other successful touring promotions.
 

Heel

Member
The thing about BJ, wasn't he under contract when he jumped ship to K-1? Wasn't he sued? I guess this all circles back to the complaint in regard to the contracts themselves, but seemed like a pretty selective statement.
 

industrian

will gently cradle you as time slowly ticks away.
This is interesting information. Thanks for posting it. Out of the examples you've listed the only Org that salaries like that is WWE right? But that's considered entertainment rather than sport as the outcomes are pre-determined. I'm not sure how exactly this lawsuit is going to help these fighters get paid better if comparable positions in other combat sports don't pay as well on average. This thing may damage the UFC but could also open up other organizations to similar lawsuits that could be even more damaging to them. We'll see how it pans out though.

Another option is for the UFC to pay a stipend to cover fighter training camps. With up to 3 training camp costs covered per year, I'm sure a lot of fighters would be more interested in fighting.

But, again, I don't trust the UFC to make a system like this. Knowing them they'd deduct this stipend from their sponsorship money or bonuses or something.

At the end of the day, I don't trust a for-profit organization that makes its own rules to make a rule that may financially hurt it. I'd say that MMA needs a global non-profit commission to make and enforce the rules as well as ensuring that fighters and organizations throughout the world are treated fairly, but FIFA and the IOC laugh in the face of that idea.
 

Gr1mLock

Passing metallic gas
UFC is just another establishment that thinks the house is more important than the talent. If they ever had local competition on the same scale of Pride they'd find out people aren't tuning in for the fox robots and public access channel circa 98 graphics.
 

Heel

Member
UFC is just another establishment that thinks the house is more important than the talent. If they ever had local competition on the same scale of Pride they'd find out people aren't tuning in for the fox robots and public access channel circa 98 graphics.

You ain't lying, friend. Directly from the complaint:

The UFC asserts that the “UFC brand is more recognizable than the sum of its individual fighters, as evidenced by its ability to nearly sell out venues even before announcing the main card to the public.” According to Lorenzo Fertitta, “Zuffa has built the UFC into an international brand that, in many instances, has been synonymous with the rapidly growing sport of MMA.”
 
My heart goes out to all of the fighters on the roster. I've known some of them and I've been hearing for years how badly they get fucked in the big leagues.

The UFC had this coming for years. They could have easily done business the honest way, compensated the fighters what they deserve, and stop gambling the millions they make each year in fucking casinos, bragging about it while even the middle tier guys competing can barely make rent in a shitty apartment in a shitty neighborhood.

Dana and his buddies need to realize they exist because of the fighters, not the other way around.
 
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