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More "Hot Coffee" repercussions

IMO, there's a very real possibility that this could have long term impact on the franchise's future. Many could argue that it will be even more popular and that gamers won't really care either way. But I'd think that parents, the ESRB, retailers, & even Rockstar will be even more cautious and there's a possibility that GTA could become something of a "joke" among some causing long term damage to the brand. It's still going to be big, but I guarantee you that Take-Two is pretty damn pissed at Rockstar at this point and are spending an inordinate amount of time on how they're going to limit the damage related to this.


Taken off of store shelves

http://biz.gamedaily.com/features.asp?article_id=10126&section=feature&email=

Taken off of almost all store shelves: WalMart, Best Buy, Circuit City, Target, & Gamestop have confirmed. All major retail stores are expected to remove it. And the replacement won't be available for months.

Possible SEC & FTC investigation

http://www.gamesindustry.biz/content_page.php?aid=10299

SEC and FTC may choose to look into Take Two's actions over San Andreas sex scenes

US analysts have warned that Take Two may face investigations from the Federal Trade Commission and the Securities and Exchange Commission after the company reduced its Q3 revenue guidance by $40 million in the wake of the Hot Coffee scandal.

Commenting in a research note yesterday, Banc of America Securities analyst Gary Cooper said that "regulatory risks remain for Take Two" and described a class action lawsuit over the matter as "inevitable."

"Some political figures are agitating for an FTC investigation on the grounds of indecency and/or false advertising related to GTA San Andreas and the original product rating," he said, going on to note that the company has not created an exchange or return programme for the 12 million already sold copies of San Andreas, something which the FTC could push it to do.

It's not just the Federal Trade Commission which may look at Take Two now, however; Cooper warned that several stock transactions over the past few weeks could also come under scrutiny from the Securities and Exchange Commission.

"Several TTWO insiders, including Chief Operating Officer Gary Lewis sold common shares recently," he noted. "Lewis sold 20,000 shares on July 13th and filed to sell 40,000 shares on July 19th. The SEC could choose to investigate these sales. It remains unclear as to when the ESRB investigation began."

It's not just these investigations which concern Banc of America Securities, however; in the firm's research note, Cooper also questions whether there could be more far-reaching effects for the GTA franchise as a whole.

"Lots of stakeholders are upset," he commented, "from retailers to 1st party platform providers to the game-rating agency to politicians and regulatory authorities. Rockstar and TTWO might now face a dilemma about the adult-content and risque nature of GTA."

"Will the company soften GTA content?" he asks. "It seems unlikely to us that this will happen. Still, pressures will mount and scrutiny will intensify surrounding the next release of GTA, which is scheduled for October of 2006."

However, Wedbush Morgan Securities' Michael Pachter doesn't agree that the scandal will have a major impact on Grand Theft Auto going forward.

"We do not expect this issue to recur," Pachter said today. "After speaking with company management, we are confident that the company has taken this matter quite seriously, and believe that all employees involved are sufficiently embarrassed and contrite so as to ensure management will carefully vet any proposed controversial content in the future."

Pachter believes that the whole affair does demonstrate that Rockstar's management has been too "lax" in its handling of the incredibly valuable GTA franchise, however.

"We are at a loss to understand the desire to write the sex minigame in the first place," he noted. "While we were not particularly offended by the content, and understand that such content is perfectly acceptable in the United Kingdom (Rockstar North, the developer of the game, is headquartered in Scotland), we question the judgment of the development team in taking such a risk with the crown jewel of the Take-Two empire."

"We again, acknowledge that the decision to omit the content from the commercial version was a prudent one, but question whether the company's management is too lax in its oversight," he concluded.

The scandal has also tarnished the reputation of the ESRB ratings body in North America, which has been forced to retract its M-rating for GTA San Andreas in favour of the far less common AO (Adults Only) rating - an embarrassing and highly public retraction for the body, which has recently been under fire from a number of vocal politicians.

In light of this, the ESRB plans to introduce tougher standards for its ratings, which will demand more detail from publishers so that all content shipped on the disc, regardless of how accessible it is, can be considered in creating the rating for a game.
 
"Will the company soften GTA content?" he asks. "It seems unlikely to us that this will happen. Still, pressures will mount and scrutiny will intensify surrounding the next release of GTA, which is scheduled for October of 2006."

Time frame was not previously known, right?
Also, what about LCS?
 
OK, this is bad new as now the FTC and SEC (who really lack any power imo) are now looking at getting involved.
 
I cannot believe that all those stores are pulling it from the shelves. It's just so fucking ridiculous. Why won't they carry AO games anyway? It seems incredibly hypocritical that they will carry R-rated and NC-17 that feature content about a million times worse than what's in SA. Shit, Best Buy carries the movie Irreversible!

What stores are left that are actually still selling it? I've been toying with the idea of picking up the PC version anyway...
 
Leave our fucking games alone. This is so crazy. It sounds as if everybody is waking up and "huh? there's violence in videogames? We play games where we blow up shit?".

It's been YEARS guys. FUCKINGS DOZENS OF YEARS.
I really hope this whole story won't influence content in our videogames. Rate them as you want but let us play violent or sexual shit if we feel like it.
 
GTA will be crippled because of this. Lassez-Faire parents now are going to be taking a second look at Billy's new game purchases and will start saying no to some purchases.

Just as well, gaming is a hobby to me.
 
The scandal has also tarnished the reputation of the ESRB ratings body in North America, which has been forced to retract its M-rating for GTA San Andreas in favour of the far less common AO (Adults Only) rating - an embarrassing and highly public retraction for the body, which has recently been under fire from a number of vocal politicians.

In light of this, the ESRB plans to introduce tougher standards for its ratings, which will demand more detail from publishers so that all content shipped on the disc, regardless of how accessible it is, can be considered in creating the rating for a game.
imo, this is becoming VERY serious!

videogames, like films, are self censored from within each industry. anything that undermines these bodies is problematic, because what we don't need is pressure from parents, retail, schools, etc, for an external ratings body, with governmental input.

this dumb rockstar stunt creates unnecessary attention for the content of videogames!

it's play nice, or don't play at all.
 
It's Rockstar's own fucking fault by A) leaving in the code, B) thinking modders are not good enough to find the code, C) lying about how the code was either left in on purpose or by accident, D) being immature fuckwads who think their games are somehow bringing in a "mature" element to videogames by ripping off every rated R movie on the fucking market; if this is "mature" gaming then they can keep it E) pushing us back to the days of Mortal Kombat and Night Trap hearings, thanks alot F) making buggy ass games in the first place G) just being pompous bastards. They deserve whatever they get and I hope they get shutdown. Asshats.
 
Property of Microsoft said:
It's Rockstar's own fucking fault by A) leaving in the code, B) thinking modders are not good enough to find the code, C) lying about how the code was either left in on purpose or by accident, D) being immature fuckwads who think their games are somehow bringing in a "mature" element to videogames by ripping off every rated R movie on the fucking market; if this is "mature" gaming then they can keep it E) pushing us back to the days of Mortal Kombat and Night Trap hearings, thanks alot F) making buggy ass games in the first place G) just being pompous bastards. They deserve whatever they get and I hope they get shutdown. Asshats.


:lol :lol :lol :lol especially at D and F and G. Man, just don't post...
 
You know I used to bitch about Volition's move to edit 'The Punisher' from Adults Only to a Mature rating. I was pissed becuase I thought they caved in, just to get the game on the shelf at Wal-Mart. But now after all this controversy, I can see why they didn't even bother.

I was also wondering why no one has said anything about the hacked version of the Punisher game. Volition left the code for the uber violence in that game, and if you have a modded XBox, you can play the original version (some modders have even gone as far as to add more blood). Maybe I should be quiet or they'll go after them next. ;)
 
I dont think Rockstar need to resort to stunts to sell the game, they cant possibly be THAT greedy to have what would have been (most likely) the top selling game this generation and want more.

I think this is probably the fault of some coders at R* north who just thought it wouldnt be a big deal. I think anyone who has played it can confirm that it is not a big deal, unfortunately there are still a lot of people out there looking to blame all the worlds problems on videogames...and they have jumped on the story, rather than the actual content.

I was also wondering why no one has said anything about the hacked version of the Punisher game.

Because of the retarded opinion of all rating bodies that sex is less acceptable than violence.
 
Wyzdom said:
:lol :lol :lol :lol especially at D and F and G. Man, just don't post...

It is more than a bit ridiculous, isn't it. I'm all for using a well placed expletive to make a point, but damn...

You know what they say about excessive cursing being a sign of a lack of vocabulary. When in doubt, profane.
 
Property of Microsoft said:
Just put me on ignore and the problem is solved.

You opinion was so wrong, biased and uneducated that i came back at your post for the simple sake of humanity. Put me on your ignore list if you want, i'm still pleased to read even the dumbest messages. Sometimes it make you realise stuff (good or not).
 
So basically what you are saying is that all this unwanted attention on the games industry is a good thing? You do realize that if people within the government do not think the ESRB is doing their job that they will step in and do it for them. How can that be a desirable outcome? In an attempt to push the boundries Rockstar has really just shot the whole industry in the foot. But go ahead and make fun of me; my self-opinion is totally dependent on constant approval from a gaming forum.
 
Apharmd Battler said:
You know I used to bitch about Volition's move to edit 'The Punisher' from Adults Only to a Mature rating. I was pissed becuase I thought they caved in, just to get the game on the shelf at Wal-Mart. But now after all this controversy, I can see why they didn't even bother.

I was also wondering why no one has said anything about the hacked version of the Punisher game. Volition left the code for the uber violence in that game, and if you have a modded XBox, you can play the original version (some modders have even gone as far as to add more blood). Maybe I should be quiet or they'll go after them next. ;)

Now I'm interested... :D
 
The Experiment said:
GTA will be crippled because of this. Lassez-Faire parents now are going to be taking a second look at Billy's new game purchases and will start saying no to some purchases.
...for about a month. Then they'll revert back to not giving a shit.
 
Shig said:
...for about a month. Then they'll revert back to not giving a shit.

We have a winner... and that's why I'm not getting all worked up about this... OMG Mature games gov't is gonna step in stuff... MK was suppose to bring about the end of violent gaming in the industry.... and like the energizer bunny... still going.
 
Well, I'm glad I already have my copy of GTA:SA :D

Although, I suppose this will affect my ability to trade it in for credit down the line?
 
Yeah, I saw stacks of GTA:SA at Target taken off the shelves and marked with a recall receipt. It's pretty much history now.
 
Property of Microsoft said:
So basically what you are saying is that all this unwanted attention on the games industry is a good thing? You do realize that if people within the government do not think the ESRB is doing their job that they will step in and do it for them. How can that be a desirable outcome? In an attempt to push the boundries Rockstar has really just shot the whole industry in the foot. But go ahead and make fun of me; my self-opinion is totally dependent on constant approval from a gaming forum.

I couldn't help myself but laugh. I don't want to be mean but i doubt you really thought about what you wrote.

D) being immature fuckwads who think their games are somehow bringing in a "mature" element to videogames by ripping off every rated R movie on the fucking market; if this is "mature" gaming then they can keep it

- GTA open design is unique and well done. It's a great game that clearly influence and will still influence videogames for years. It's unbelievably more mature than most action games.

F) making buggy ass games in the first place

- I hope you work in a videogame develloper. This game is so huge, open design and there's so much stuff going on i can't even figure out how they could have done such a nice job a debugging. I'm sorry but you should thank God there's not more bugs in there.

G) just being pompous bastards. They deserve whatever they get and I hope they get shutdown. Asshats.

- This is just hate. Blatant obvious and wrong. Love or Hate shouldn't even apply to business entities. Rockstar failed at preventing us from accessing the controversial content and lied about not knowing it's in there but it's their only wrong. They shouldn't care about Joe Blow X that may not like the content. There's ratings, use it. Discrimination to AO rating is also just as stupid from big retailers.
 
I see a sharp decrease in the amount of sales for rated M games if actions are taken to keep younger children away from Mature games.

Sorry, no more 8 miller seller GTAs now since the kiddies can't buy it. :lol
 
Minotauro said:
I cannot believe that all those stores are pulling it from the shelves. It's just so fucking ridiculous. Why won't they carry AO games anyway? It seems incredibly hypocritical that they will carry R-rated and NC-17 that feature content about a million times worse than what's in SA. Shit, Best Buy carries the movie Irreversible!

What stores are left that are actually still selling it? I've been toying with the idea of picking up the PC version anyway...
I've never seen an NC-17 rated movie at Walmart or Target. Want to know why? Because they don't fuckin' carry them. An AO rating is like an NC-17 and an M rating is like an R rating. It's not that hard people.

AO--No chance in hell can a kid buy this game until he turns 18.
M--A kid can buy this game, but he has to have a sibling or parents, etc, with him.
 
- This is just hate. Blatant obvious and wrong. Love or Hate shouldn't even apply to business entities. Rockstar failed at preventing us from accessing the controversial content and lied about not knowing it's in there but it's their only wrong. They shouldn't care about Joe Blow X that may not like the content. There's ratings, use it. Discrimination to AO rating is also just as stupid from big retailers.

So their not telling the ESRB that the content was on the disc, DENYING they had anything to do with it, trying to blame "hackers" for making it, then having to rescind those comments, all the while casting the entire industry into a bad light, is just hate? Give me a break. I used to crusade against politicians and angry mothers, too, saying that we should have the right to play what we want and curse them for censoring us. Blah, blah, blah. This is pure irresponsibility on Rockstar's part, and the company knows it. And you know it as well. Whether they had hackers release the codes or patches, or whether they didn't, the developers still knew full well that content was on the disc, and that there are people who search for those things.

They've completely undermined the ESRB ratings system, which for years people have been championing. "IF YOU DON'T LIKE THE RATING, DON'T BUY IT FOR YOUR KIDS." But if even the ratings don't have full knowledge of the content, how can you say that anymore? This is a complete joke.
 
AirBrian said:
Yep. The only thing that will result because of all this is a nice waste of taxpayers' money.

It's going to KILL the Xbox & PC version sales. Resumed sales in ~3 months will not make up for losing a good part of the second months availability and all of it's 3rd.

At least they got these versions out for a month though. They could have been in much deeper doo-doo if the ESRB had been able to do this in early June.
 
sonycowboy said:
It's going to KILL the Xbox & PC version sales. Resumed sales in ~3 months will not make up for losing a good part of the second months availability and all of it's 3rd.


<snaps fingers> I've got it... this was a Sony plot all along! They infiltrated the Rockstar programmer team, paid off a programmer to stick this content in, then more recently they had someone release information how to access it....
 
sonycowboy said:
It's going to KILL the Xbox & PC version sales. Resumed sales in ~3 months will not make up for losing a good part of the second months availability and all of it's 3rd.

Hmmmmmm. Maybe I can fetch a pretty penny on eBay for my copy? :lol

I can wait to play the game again or not play it at all anymore.
 
DarienA said:
We have a winner... and that's why I'm not getting all worked up about this... OMG Mature games gov't is gonna step in stuff... MK was suppose to bring about the end of violent gaming in the industry.... and like the energizer bunny... still going.
the difference is when mortal kombat first hit consoles most games weren't mature [as we understand the term today], and graphics were limited it how realistic they could be.

today many games are mature, and graphics can create more realism, even more next gen, i.e. november!

the reality is most parents don't know what their kids are playing, and if they did, they wouldn't like it.

i'm for keeping videogames as they are, i don't want them toned down, however, stunts like 'hot coffee' are stupid. we don't need press like 'The scandal has also tarnished the reputation of the ESRB ratings body'...
 
Mallrat83 said:
I've never seen an NC-17 rated movie at Walmart or Target. Want to know why? Because they don't fuckin' carry them.

Where did I refer specifically to Walmart or Target? I didn't. Best Buy and Circuit City, which were both mentioned in the original post, do in fact carry them though. You may want to work on your reading comprehension.

An AO rating is like an NC-17 and an M rating is like an R rating. It's not that hard people.

It's not a 1-to-1 comparison though. Content that's been present in both M and AO-rated games wouldn't be out of the ordinary in an R-rated film. To the best of my knowledge, there really hasn't been a game with content that would require an NC-17 rating were it a film.
 
I'm sure all the recalled copies will show up on ebay from "anonymous" seller "not related" to R* at all.

Edit: Some companies have "unrelated" entities to do things like that. I wouldn't be surprised if R* does it. Nothing illegal since it's just a stupid loophole. On paper Take-Two's earning will still be affected but the other entity recope the lost for it.
 
This be ridiculous, the entire system in this nation proves ever more how incapable, how unfit it is. Someday this system will most likely be undone and rebuilt, by those conservatives fear most.
 
Minotauro said:
Where did I refer specifically to Walmart or Target? I didn't. Best Buy and Circuit City, which were both mentioned in the original post, do in fact carry them though. You may want to work on your reading comprehension.



It's not a 1-to-1 comparison though. Content that's been present in both M and AO-rated games wouldn't be out of the ordinary in an R-rated film. To the best of my knowledge, there really hasn't been a game with content that would require an NC-17 rating were it a film.



its because the game industry is still very immature in my opinion, in that ZOMG sex ZOMG ITS X it HAS TO BE, where as movies which have been around for awhile and even (cable) and now network tv can show some pretty risque stuff compared to 10 years ago without being called porn.
 
ziran said:
the difference is when mortal kombat first hit consoles most games weren't mature [as we understand the term today], and graphics were limited it how realistic they could be.

today many games are mature, and graphics can create more realism, even more next gen, i.e. november!

the reality is most parents don't know what their kids are playing, and if they did, they wouldn't like it.

i'm for keeping videogames as they are, i don't want them toned down, however, stunts like 'hot coffee' are stupid. we don't need press like 'The scandal has also tarnished the reputation of the ESRB ratings body'...

Actually you've missed another difference and it's one alot of folks here keep missing... many more adults are buying games than during the 16bit era.

Sorry I don't see any long term damage from this... I simply see lots of short term saber rattling by politicians, and perhaps an investor lawsuit, as well as some firings at Rockstar.
 
There's zero way that any hipster PR talk resulting from this could offset the massive amount of money they will lose from not having the game out on the shelves.

The real mistake wasn't that the development team didn't remove the testing hook (the "hot coffee" code) that was in place for the objectionable content when the content got severed. Without that entrypoint, there would be no way to get to that sequence of the code-at that point, it just becomes embedded art assets and dead code in the game.

That being said, I'm amazed that they greenlighted work on this kind of crap at all, even if they did pull it out of the game later. Stupid, stupid, stupid.
 
yeah having seen the video online (even though i own the pc and xbox versions OMG!), i can say its just stupid and a bit embarrassing to watch (ask an average person on the street how cool and edgy simulating sex in a video game makes you).
 
Divus Masterei said:
This be ridiculous, the entire system in this nation proves ever more how incapable, how unfit it is. Someday this system will most likely be undone and rebuilt, by those conservatives fear most.
Umm...
*saves and bookmarks for eventual FBI questioning*
 
Fragamemnon said:
There's zero way that any hipster PR talk resulting from this could offset the massive amount of money they will lose from not having the game out on the shelves.

The sales wouldn't have been that great over the next 3 months. What's going to hurt is the returns on existing product for the PS2, Xbox, & PC versions which could be well over 1M units all told.

Also, I have to wonder what the European regulation group will think of all of this. It's obviously in that version as well and that could be another big dollar amount of returns.

Finally, Take-Two relies on their distribution company for quite a bit of profit. The distribution company is essentially the only way to get R* games and without the need for that, retailers could order the other games offered from other distributors.
 
This pull shows how stupid double standards can be in America. Yeah, we won't pull the game off the shelves because of the massive violence. We'll pull it off the shelves due to the sex scene 1 percent of the people with the game can access!!!
 
ignorance on overdrive is bad!

parent's thinking 'what else have developers put in little jonny's game', will start videogames being blamed for every conceivable evil.
 
Also, I don't think this will have a huge impact on future versions. Rockstar will just make sure to have this spicy content edited out. In fact, I wouldn't be surprised if the content from San Andreas has been removed and the game will get repressed to keep the M rating when it ships back to stores. Rockstar may have to dump some GTA:SA copies underground ET style, now! Or maybe sell the extras on ebay! :D
 
sonycowboy said:
Also, I have to wonder what the European regulation group will think of all of this. It's obviously in that version as well and that could be another big dollar amount of returns.

According to the Gameindustry biz article we know for starters that the BBFC(British Board of Film Classification) doesn't give a care about the hidden content. Many parts of Europe don't have the sexual hangups that this country does so I don't see there being much impact there...
 
ziran said:
the reality is most parents don't know what their kids are playing, and if they did, they wouldn't like it.
As almost everyone that has worked gaming retail can tell you, in a majority of cases if they've told a parent about questionable content in a game, or even explicitly told the parent that it's not suitable for their 10 year old, they will shrug that all off and buy it for them anyway.

Most parents only care about buying what it takes to shut their kids up.

Oh, they'll feign shock and concern when the possibility of a class-action lawsuit presents itself, to get a piece of that pie. But they don't really care.
 
Property of Microsoft said:
It's Rockstar's own fucking fault by A) leaving in the code, B) thinking modders are not good enough to find the code, C) lying about how the code was either left in on purpose or by accident, D) being immature fuckwads who think their games are somehow bringing in a "mature" element to videogames by ripping off every rated R movie on the fucking market; if this is "mature" gaming then they can keep it E) pushing us back to the days of Mortal Kombat and Night Trap hearings, thanks alot F) making buggy ass games in the first place G) just being pompous bastards. They deserve whatever they get and I hope they get shutdown. Asshats.


:lol :lol :lol :lol at D, F and G...because they're so true! I hate Rock* and their games do about as much good for gaming as the most hardcore fanboys ie it's their fault for dragging gaming into the sewer
 
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