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"Ms. Marvel" writer takes issue with New Yorker snarky piece on Marvel's "A-Force"

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Dalek

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AForceLarge-674x1024.jpg

G. Willow Wilson is the writer of Marvel's acclaimed "Ms. Marvel" series and the upcoming "A-Force" which features a female-only superhero team. She's an amazing writer, and the praise for Ms. Marvel is deserved.

Jill Lepore at the New Yorker wrote [URL="http://www.newyorker.com/culture/cultural-comment/marvel-a-force-female-superheroes"]this piece about the upcoming A-Force[/URL] with some heavy snark about the generalizations towards female heroes in comics.

In case you missed it—the announcement was made last year on “The View”—Thor became female because he’s a Norse god and I guess he can be whatever he wants, and Marvel is trying very hard to deal with the fact that its superheroes are mainly men and just turning them into women seemed as good a plan as any. It’s a little hard to keep up, true. But it’s not a bad plan. So it’s weird, and depressing, that “Age of Ultron” and the “A-Force” should have such pervy characters and costumes, since Joss Whedon, who directed both the first Avengers movie and this latest installment, and G. Willow Wilson, one of the creators of “A-Force,” have been on a mission for a while now to re-invent the female superhero. Whedon, who created “Buffy the Vampire Slayer,” once wrote a script for a Wonder Woman movie and has been outspoken about the need for more and stronger female characters in superhero movies. Wilson writes a comic book that features a female Muslim superhero named Kamala Khan and known as Ms. Marvel. Marvel, in other words, is trying to create better female characters. Like … She-Hulk?

Maybe it’s not possible to create reasonable female comic-book superheroes, since their origins are so tangled up with magazines for men. True, they’re not much more ridiculous than male superheroes. But they’re all ridiculous in the same way. Dazzler, Miss Elusive, the Enchantress, She-Wolf, Medusa, She-Hulk. Their power is their allure, which, looked at another way, is the absence of power. Even their bodies are not their own. They are without force.


Today, G. Willow Wilson saw the article and responded on her Tumblr.

Genre–whether it’s action/adventure, romance, scifi, fantasy, or superheroes–largely differentiates itself from “mainstream literature” by its heavy reliance on tropes. The lone survivor in a post-apocalyptic landscape. The reluctant paladin called to defend his or her homeland. The white knight. The savior-sacrifice, who must pay the ultimate price to keep the darkness at bay. Good genre books and films succeed because the authors or artists have manipulated these tropes in a particularly skillful way, either by subverting them or unpacking them or, occasionally, pointing right at them. Some of the most stunning works of SF/F produced in the past couple of decades–those that have shifted the cultural conversation–have been those that rely the most heavily on tropes, on what we think we know about a certain genre, and which then proceed to show us, almost by sleight-of-hand, what we have overlooked. The Walking Dead. Gravity. District 9. The superb Children of Men. What is masterful about each of these is that the creators exhibited no embarrassment whatsoever about their pulpy source material–instead, they dug deep into the ‘how’ and the ‘why’ and the ‘who’ and used tropes we might have considered all played out (the astronaut in trouble, the zombie apocalypse) to illustrate profoundly heartbreaking things about the human condition. That is, perhaps, genre in a nutshell: it is cliche turned on its head.

It’s unfortunate that Dr. Lepore chose to characterize the costumes worn by the women on the cover of A FORCE #1 as ‘pervy’ and pornographic. (The pervy part especially–this may be a generational difference, but these days it’s generally considered old fashioned, if not somewhat bigoted, to use that word in a pejorative fashion. New Yorker style guide editors: take note.) I don’t know what kind of porn Dr. Lepore enjoys, but as far as I know, outside of some niche industry for wrestling singlet kink (I’m sure one exists), most porn stars don’t show up for work in what are essentially full-coverage gymnastics leotards. What is terribly ironic about her critique on this front is that she fails to realize–probably because of her lack of familiarity with any of these characters–that these specific iterations of our heroines’ costumes were purposefully crafted to resemble those of male superheroes. They are, for the most part, fully covered–a profound departure from the teeny bikinis of the 80’s and 90’s, while still cognizant of the fact that these characters are superheroes, and superheroes–male and female alike–wear funky colored latex. If Dr. Lepore is categorically opposed to latex, she should consider trolling a different genre.

The heroines on the cover of A FORCE #1 are also posed in a very specific way. They face us head-on. She Hulk has her arms crossed over her chest. Nobody is in the brokeback pose (I’ll let Dr. Lepore google that one too), nobody has her butt up in the air. None of them are in the sexually objectified contortions that have become standard issue in recent decades. They are, in other words, posed the way their male colleagues are typically posed. They are posed as heroes.

Dr. Lepore provides no answers, and in all likelihood, she never intended to. Her article is a very crisp demonstration of the difference between criticism from within the community–criticism from people who love comics and want to see them succeed–and criticism from the self-appointed gatekeepers of art and culture, who categorically do not give a shit. This is what it looks like, folks! Let every disgruntled fan who’s been punching down on women in comics for the past couple of years read Dr. Lepore’s article and decide which argument they’d rather have.

I have been a little cheeky thus far, so let me close by saying that I imagine Dr. Lepore and I want the same thing: better, more nuanced portrayals of women in pop culture. What I don’t understand is why someone in her position would, from her perch a thousand feet up in the ivory tower, take pot shots at those of us who are in the trenches, doing exactly that.
 

bfwings55

Member
I thought Dazzler had a new look???

tumblr-inline-n7hlprw2uv1rq5p7o-4224b.png


EDIT: Nvm, saw a living adult Jean Grey in the picture and realized this is Secret Wars alternate universe bullshit
 

Mudcrab

Member
Dr. Lepore provides no answers, and in all likelihood, she never intended to. Her article is a very crisp demonstration of the difference between criticism from within the community–criticism from people who love comics and want to see them succeed–and criticism from the self-appointed gatekeepers of art and culture, who categorically do not give a shit. This is what it looks like, folks! Let every disgruntled fan who’s been punching down on women in comics for the past couple of years read Dr. Lepore’s article and decide which argument they’d rather have.

I have been a little cheeky thus far, so let me close by saying that I imagine Dr. Lepore and I want the same thing: better, more nuanced portrayals of women in pop culture. What I don’t understand is why someone in her position would, from her perch a thousand feet up in the ivory tower, take pot shots at those of us who are in the trenches, doing exactly that.

Fucking awesome.
 

Currygan

at last, for christ's sake
reasonable female comic-book superheroes

like, what the fuck does this even mean

response was a damn fine roasting. Good job Willow Wilson
 

Razmos

Member
I have been a little cheeky thus far, so let me close by saying that I imagine Dr. Lepore and I want the same thing: better, more nuanced portrayals of women in pop culture. What I don’t understand is why someone in her position would, from her perch a thousand feet up in the ivory tower, take pot shots at those of us who are in the trenches, doing exactly that.
DAMN, shots fired from the trenches.
 

kirblar

Member
reasonable female comic-book superheroes

like, what the fuck does this even mean

response was a damn fine roasting. Good job Willow Wilson
It means that person's sex-negative and can't understand how a good-looking attractive person can be taken seriously. Any display of skin/sexuality is bad and must be stamped out.
 

Fury451

Banned
She's absolutely right about people in the "ivory tower" who freely judge everyone that's not living in their bubble. This was a great rebuttal to a ridiculously arrogant and ignorant article.

And what exactly are the good doctor's expectations for a reasonable female hero? What a pile of nonsense.

Ms. Marvel rocks by the way, I'd you haven't been reading it, you should be.
 
That's a pretty good smackdown.

I think the underlying thing here that GWW might be missing is how much further things could go in the right direction.
 
The funny thing is that this had been doing the rounds and multiple answers had been published before Wilson even heard about it.
Congrats to Lepore for that own goal I guess.
 

Dalek

Member
She's absolutely right about people in the "ivory tower" who freely judge everyone that's not living in their bubble. This was a great rebuttal to a ridiculously arrogant and ignorant article.

And what exactly are the good doctor's expectations for a reasonable female hero? What a pile of nonsense.

Ms. Marvel rocks by the way, I'd you haven't been reading it, you should be.


.
 

Shaanyboi

Banned
Cheers to Wilson. That was a damn fine response to a critique without any real ammunition or understanding of the subject-at-hand.
 

Aceun

Member
Really happy to see this response. And happy to be an avid supporter/reader of Ms. Marvel. It's quite awesome and does exactly what the New Yorker article is supposedly fighting for.
 

Fury451

Banned
I think the underlying thing here that GWW might be missing is how much further things could go in the right direction.

It really is leaps and bound better than 10 years ago even.

But Dr. Lepore seems to think that Rescue is equivalent to a girlfriend wearing her boyfriend's shirt because she has a suit of Iron armor if I understood that quote correctly, so you'll never convince everyone no matter the progress.

The funny thing is, Jill Lepore just wrote a book last year about Wonder Woman and what an important feminist milestone her creation was, and how her creator deserves a ton of credit for it:

http://www.theguardian.com/books/2014/dec/28/secret-history-wonder-woman-jill-lepore-observer-review

So... i don't know.

She seems to speak more positively of DC, and Wonder Woman in the article because she isn't a "knock-off" of a male counterpart. She seems convinced that these Marvel characters are only gender swapped versions of men, and therefore of lesser merit.
 

fallengorn

Bitches love smiley faces
Pretty great response.

Reading the original Op-Ed piece, it was like the New Yorker needed to fill up some space.
 

Isak_Borg

Member
It really is leaps and bound better than 10 years ago even.

But Dr. Lepore seems to think that Rescue is equivalent to a girlfriend wearing her boyfriend's shirt because she has a suit of Iron armor if I understood that quote correctly, so you'll never convince everyone no matter the progress.

I think most of the individuals in here have either never picked up a New Yorker or are unfamiliar with who Dr. Lepore is.
 

marrec

Banned
Dr. Lepore is likely well intentioned. Hearing her do interviews about the book she wrote on Wonder Woman and it's creators, you can tell she takes this medium very seriously... however she should probably be more aware of the current comic political climate before trying to take pot-shots at A-Force.

Wilson's Marvel is exactly what Dr. Lepore is lamenting for and it seems she gives very little credence to the idea that her helming A-Force is representative of a sea change at Marvel.
 

nicanica

Member
I'm more than happy to read an all fem-team again.

Lady Liberators (wished they formed an actual on-going after She-hulk)

Lady Defenders (The world needs Misty Knight back)

New-Xmen is pretty bad.
Why is Rogue such a bitch like in every issue?

Also, using Kamala as a jumping off point to make a statement of failure in creating interesting characters?

The fuck is this girl's problem?
 

Isak_Borg

Member
I'm more than happy to read an all fem-team again.

Lady Liberators (wished they formed an actual on-going after She-hulk)

Lady Defenders (The world needs Misty Knight back)

New-Xmen is pretty bad.
Why is Rogue such a bitch like in every issue?

Also, using Kamala as a jumping off point to make a statement of failure in creating interesting characters?

The fuck is this girl's problem?

The fact that you're calling a women with a PHD a girl might be part of the problem.
 
She seems to speak more positively of DC, and Wonder Woman in the article because she isn't a "knock-off" of a male counterpart. She seems convinced that these Marvel characters are only gender swapped versions of men, and therefore of lesser merit.

Yeah, i guess that's it. she feels She Hulk is automatically cheaper as a character because there's a Hulk, whereas Wonder Woman wasn't derivative of a specific male counterpart. What a weird thing for her to get so hung up on.
 
That article was painful to read. I mean, I think there is an arguement to be made that too many female heroes exist as add-ons or gender-flipped versions to previous heroes, but that is a product of the time in which they were created and it's exceedingly difficult to recreate those characters or to jump start new ones who don't have that baggage. You can't just throw away characters with histories to them because of that. You just have to continue to forge ahead and make them interesting and compelling both on their own and as full fledged partners in the Superhero mythos. Ms. Wilson is absolutely correct in that regards.
 

marrec

Banned
Dr. Lepore is not coming at this particular issue in good faith I fear:

Dr. Lepore said:
...so I decided to consult the experts: I went to see [Avengers: Age of Ultron] with a bunch of ten-year-old boys...

It's especially odd considering how reverently she treated the creation and writing of the original Wonder Woman comics.
 

nicanica

Member
The fact that you're calling a women with a PHD a girl might be part of the problem.

Please enlighten all of us by pointing out who Dr. Lepore is? Or please educate us on how to properly interpret the New Yorker instead of letting this thread turn into a bash fest, then.

Until then, I'll do to this article what she does to this comic in its opening paragraph: Judge it by its surface appearance
 

marrec

Banned
I kind of see where she is coming from concerning the cover. Wilson's defense isn't exactly bulletproof.

I'm not sure about that, the only thing overtly sexual about that cover is the fact that the women on it aren't covered from head to toe. It's a fairly sex-negative judgement.

Of course, it depends on how you view sex and feminism I guess.
 
I think most of the individuals in here have either never picked up a New Yorker or are unfamiliar with who Dr. Lepore is.

Yup. That tumblr response is pretty sad and maligned as well. The last paragraph where she basically proclaims that everyone who isn't an established comics geek that attempts to criticize or analyze the medium "don't give a shit" and are just snobby "cultural gatekeepers" is laughable and ironic considering she seems to be the one doing the gatekeeping with regards to who is allowed to be listened to on this matter. This quote makes my blood boil too:

I have been a little cheeky thus far, so let me close by saying that I imagine Dr. Lepore and I want the same thing: better, more nuanced portrayals of women in pop culture. What I don’t understand is why someone in her position would, from her perch a thousand feet up in the ivory tower, take pot shots at those of us who are in the trenches, doing exactly that.

What is this masturbatory crap? "I write a comic about a female superhero, I am obviously without a doubt providing an undeniably nuanced and superior representation of women in the process." Uhhh, no, that's not a universal truth nor is it up to you to decide. And that's the entire point of Lepore's aritcle, which she and most people in this place have missed completely. Yes, there's an increasing number of female superheroes being created in response to the age old entrenched sexism of the medium. That's a great thing, but it absolutely does not mean that every female super hero that is created is inherently a shining beacon of feminist advancement without any possible flaw or problem worth noting. Attempting to point stuff like this out is not "snobbery from gated ivory towers" or whatever other nonsense she is trying to label it as.
 
Lepore's opinion seems to echo what general people think about comic books. It's why comic books are still not reaching that mainstream level. It is what it is.
 

Data West

coaches in the WNBA
Moondragon is literally the only revealing costume on that cover.

Unless it's the 1920s again and we should shame She-Hulk for showing her legs.
 
The fact that the author tries to use She-Hulk as a flippant example of how women aren't portrayed well in comics just shows that she probably never read a comic in the first place. She-Hulk is one of the most fleshed out, enjoyable females from either of the major comic companies. It's like she just heard the name She-Hulk and automatically assumed that she wasn't worth a shit because she's a female version of Hulk.
 
Lucy in the Sky AND Nico, but no mother fucking PRINCESS POWERFUL?

A-Force cover sucks. Shut it down, it's all over.


Seriously though, I should really get back into current comics.
 

Fury451

Banned
Lepore's opinion seems to echo what general people think about comic books. It's why comic books are still not reaching that mainstream level. It is what it is.

No, I would wager the impenetrable and intimidating continuity and canon of comics is why they're not reaching mainstream level. I love comics, but they can be crazy intimidating to get into.

You either catch a #1 issue (even then, no guarantees) or you're completely screwed without doing research into your character or book of choice to figure out what's going on. Heaven help you if you pick up part of an event comic by mistake.
 
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