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My Hero Academia (Shonen Jump) move over pirates, ninjas, reapers, its Hero time
- Thread starter SalvaPot
- Start date
Semantics. It basically comes down to understanding the reason something happens. With Bakugou, we're just left scratching our heads, because if he is using actual explosions similar to nitroglycerin, then something is not working right here.
But I think what is missed in these debates is that it is almost always a minor point. It is a definite flaw and the manga would definitely be slightly better if we didn't have this confusion over it.
However, I've never read a work where me going "Wait, that's not how it works..." one time was an actual killing stroke for the experience. It's when it happens multiple times, to the point where I can no longer believe in the world presented to me, that I actually get angry over it.
Honestly, the manga handles the powers more realistically than most, I'd say. Not just the powers themselves, but how the world has reacted to them. They became normalized, registered, and a legal system has been designed around them. One for All powers have specific systems that Midoriya is taking care to learn in an intelligent manner.
It's not perfect. I think the premise of "everyone gets superpowers" is impossible to be perfect, to be honest. But it's doing a decent job overall. Bakugou just happens to stick out a bit.
Oh yeah, sorry for not being clear, I'm agreeing with you. What I mean is that series should focus on what the powers do, rather than the reasons they work. Like all you need to know about Cyclops is that he shoots lasers that push people away, the explanation that his eyes are a portal to the punch dimension is silly.
Horikoshi has avoided the latter kind of explanation, and it's a good thing.
Horikoshi has avoided the latter kind of explanation, and it's a good thing.
Wow. Just wow.
Baku having an internal identity crisis due to the All Might fiasco is brilliant writing. I thought it was just the insecurity issues but it's also the guilt. I'm amazed that Baku is not only getting some form of character development, it's also really good character development and analysis.
The character art for both Baku and Deku being elevated is also making this a pure joy.
Baku having an internal identity crisis due to the All Might fiasco is brilliant writing. I thought it was just the insecurity issues but it's also the guilt. I'm amazed that Baku is not only getting some form of character development, it's also really good character development and analysis.
The character art for both Baku and Deku being elevated is also making this a pure joy.
NHarmonic.
Member
That cyclops power explanation read like that. I don't want horikoshi entering that field. I.e Oh Aoyama's navel beam? It's a dimension portal powered by heat that he can concentrate through his fucking navel, and blabla space time shenanigans. No please.
i can't give a precise translation but it seems to be backstory about hoshi coming up with yandere girl and not actually her actual backstory.
I gotta say though, calling it a "punch dimension" is really fun
yeah I just figured people would like the drawing
You are using the worst possible example of how power explanations work to justify not using them at all. It's like saying no one should do Batman movies because Batman Forever did went wrong, or that Supernatural romances can't be good because Twilight, or...basically, anything, because whatever genre, trope, or technique you can think of has had someone fail at it catastrophically.
Take FMA's example: Okay, so you get the law of equivalent exchange, but where does the energy to make the exchange come from?
Answer:
The energy from the earth's tectonic plate movement.
Perfect! It's simple, makes sense, and provides a clear explanation for why transmutation is available to people. The only real concern is how taking energy from the earth would affect it on the long term, but that's okay, since it's not a concern that's part of the story. That's a good explanation for why things work.
Most well done explanations are simple. E=MC2 isn't a complicated equation, but it explains a lot.
Hunter X Hunter is a manga that should be a complete mess....and it kind of is...but it doesn't suffer from it the way it ought to. It does a lot of things stories should just not do, like stop to have the narrator explain whats happening rather than just showing it, but it somehow makes it work.
As for Nen, it was a pretty cool system that should be "Easy to learn, hard to master" in theory, but the specialization aspect of it basically means anything goes. And the way Togashi writes it, I feel he cares very little for sticking to the rules it was established with. He mostly now just uses it as "Uh, okay, so I got this ability that I need to justify, it's uh....specialized Nen. Yeah, sure. And these things. Nen Beasts." and so on.
But he knows how to make a situations tense and compelling for reasons I have trouble pinning down. HxH should be unreadable, but somehow isn't.
Yeah, I can agree with that. Togashi made it fun either way.
While we're on the topic, quirks are sometimes used as a loose metaphor for the thing Japan has with conformity over individuality, right? I didn't figure it out until recently, but that's literally the word Horikoshi uses in Japanese, kosei "individuality".
edit: and that's why the original translation of Chapter 1 used "individuality", if you guys remember that
While we're on the topic, quirks are sometimes used as a loose metaphor for the thing Japan has with conformity over individuality, right? I didn't figure it out until recently, but that's literally the word Horikoshi uses in Japanese, kosei "individuality".
edit: and that's why the original translation of Chapter 1 used "individuality", if you guys remember that
I honestly don't know. I actually read recently (recently being a few years back) that while this is what Japan traditionally values, the dissatisfaction that the Japanese had with the government as well as a growing sense of multiculturalism from the media has lead to a small but growing movement for individuality.
I have no idea how true that is at all and I take such reports with a massive grain of salt. Talking about Japanese culture is interesting, but honestly, we need an anthropologist that studies it or atleast someone who's there and has their ear to the ground on where the social state of the nation is at to talk about it with any semblance of not just spewing bullshit.
I have no idea how true that is at all and I take such reports with a massive grain of salt. Talking about Japanese culture is interesting, but honestly, we need an anthropologist that studies it or atleast someone who's there and has their ear to the ground on where the social state of the nation is at to talk about it with any semblance of not just spewing bullshit.
I don't live in Japan, but I do live in India, and Todoroki's backstory tipped me off. The analogue with arranged marriages was super obvious, right down to the things another series might brush over. I wouldn't know the details Horikoshi's criticizing in Japanese society, but it's a loose metaphor anyway. And whatever's going on there, Horikoshi's upfront about what he believes.
And hey, if Horikoshi can get away with it, he's got it set up pretty clever. He gets to criticize modern society using quirks as a metaphor, and gave the kids reading Jump a progressive world as a role model, where some issues just aren't anymore.
And hey, if Horikoshi can get away with it, he's got it set up pretty clever. He gets to criticize modern society using quirks as a metaphor, and gave the kids reading Jump a progressive world as a role model, where some issues just aren't anymore.
NHarmonic.
Member
I agree with your points, but still the critique against Bakugou's powers is weird, the author kept it simple, and used nitroglycerin as analogy of a highly explosive liquid substance. Going further than that in the explanation and every quirk (including bakugou's) fails the test; inasa's, shigaraki's, tokoyama's, all of them. IMO Horikoshi's way is perfect, he gives very briefly explanations and make them work (and doesn't go the way DC or Marvel tend to go). We really don't need molecular or atomic/physic explanations of shonen powers.
Funny about your take in HxH, nen is really convoluted
and far more problematic in these terms than the quirks could ever be.
FlowersisBritish
fleurs n'est pas britannique
Eh, I've noticed that Horikoshi's pretty selective with his explanations. He usually doesn't usually try to explain them unless its to justify some other thing. In Baku's case, the "Explodes from my sweat" thing is to justify his grenade cannon thing. If it's not for them to do some cool new thing, he usually won't bother telling us how it works. Which I don't mind, but I could pretty easily understand how that would annoy people because its easy to fall into a slippery slope of thoughts. Like last page, where we talking about how the hell invisible girl work and whether it's a physical mutation and if it is, how the hell does THAT work?
I'm going to take it not a lot of you have ever sat down and watched an anything with a scientist? Which is good, they're insufferable (more so than me) and the thing that typically annoys them the most is scientific inaccuracies and whenever you open up with a super specific chemical like 'nitroglycerin" then you open up a giant can of worms with how nitroglycerin works. Which again, I never fault someone for. I get that way with human psychology. Once you know how something works, it can be pretty irritating to see it used wrong.
Scientists usually don't care about scientific inaccuracies, unless they were already assholes. If you actually know how physics or whatever works, you'll understand that it'd be impossible to tell most stories with real physics.
people who're into science but aren't scientists usually care a lot though, because they don't understand that
people who're into science but aren't scientists usually care a lot though, because they don't understand that
FlowersisBritish
fleurs n'est pas britannique
You and I are obviously drinking with different groups of scientists. But you are right. He is kind of a jerk...
I'm not saying bakugou's powers are neither complex nor simplistic (btw, simple explanations aren't inherently good either. Midiclorians are a simple explanation, and you see how well that went over), just that their description is wrong. Nitroglycerin doesn't act like this. So if they really want to keep that description, writing in some excuse that explains why it's not acting like Nitroglycerin wouldn't be uncalled for. You responded by saying an explanation would overcomplicate things which would apparently automatically be bad, citing the worst case scenerio with that cyclops dimension stuff, but it doesn't have to run in that direction at all. If nothing else, you're using bad logic. Just because something can go wrong doesn't mean it must go wrong.
As for the other quirks, as far as I know, no one of them have established a real world explanation for how they act that doesn't work. I mean, Tokoyomi's shadow beast, we don't even know what that thing is made of. If you were to tell me that it's sentient substance he produces through unknown means, sure, I buy that. But once you give me a real substance to work with, that means I can ask questions to falsify what it is and how it works.
Yeah, to be honest, it's not like I don't call bullshit on some of what HxH does, but the thing it has going for it is that it does interesting things with it's powers and also has strong characterization for it's story. Like I said, inconsistencies like what we're talking about do hurt a story, but not by much. They'd need to be in aggregate. And HxH doesn't have as much of that. For example, I don't question that Kurapika can materialize his chains, since it's established that's a rule of the universe, conjurer's can materialize stuff. What I do question is how deals are made to enhance his Emperor time mode. The given explanation is that he placed conditions on himself to use it, but that's not how natural forces work. You can't make a deal with gravity to float for 5 seconds if it means it'll apply twice as much gravity for the next 5 afterwards.
I can attest to this personally.
My experience is that most scientists will just go "That's bullshit" and continue watching the movie. But it does enhance the experience for when the writers do get it right.
When they were writing Breaking Bad, they asked a lot about how actual meth was made, and that lent authenticity to the work done. Iirc, one of the few purposeful deviations was making it the color blue, since they wanted to give Walt a signature for his product, but otherwise, the meth making process is apparently pretty accurate.
Similarly, the first avengers movie, when they were talking about about the teleporter, used actual terms and theories for how a teleporter would work. It wasn't just scientific sounding babble, and in some small, almost imperceptible way, that just enhances the work, makes it just a tad more real.
There are points where you have to deviate from real physics, or even points where you don't but it'd be helpful toward the story, but when writers just shrug their shoulders and say "don't need to be real" without even making the attempt, that's just laziness.
it's pretty fun to come up with stupid theories if you don't take it seriously, though
Like you know Wolverine's regeneration? Where does the matter come from? Obviously, since we have the punch dimension, his cells each have a portal to the meat dimension, a universe of infinite meat.
Like you know Wolverine's regeneration? Where does the matter come from? Obviously, since we have the punch dimension, his cells each have a portal to the meat dimension, a universe of infinite meat.
Yeah, that's fun.
I don't read X-men, so I don't know if this punch dimension bullshit even deserves the hate or not. It sounds stupid on paper, but a lot of things do when they are taken out of context, but work really well in the actual story.
It probably is stupid though. The worldbuilding of serialized comic books is one of the worst things of the medium.
It probably is stupid though. The worldbuilding of serialized comic books is one of the worst things of the medium.
FlowersisBritish
fleurs n'est pas britannique
I mean, I suppose you're not wrong, but at the same time I don't think their nitpicks are invalid. I get annoyed at portrayals of mental diseases all the time for being inaccurate, and yeah, I'd probably nitpick something else, but doesn't change the fact that's not how a lobotomy works. We all have things that get to us and it's not like Boku no Hero is perfect, it can't scratch everyone's itches. If it tried, it probably wouldn't be as good and focused as it is.
Generally speaking, the more you actually know about something, the more you are annoyed at everyone else getting it wrong. I'm not even talking about stories. In any given situation, when you devote yourself to some area of study and someone talks out their ass about it, the more you have the urge to grab them and go "No, fuckstick, this is how it works". You talk to a shoe cobbler, they'll slap your shit for talking wrongly about making shoes.
Edit: actually, I got a better example. Anyone here who plays videogames, just sit down and have your parents try and play a game. Any game. See how long before that urge to tell them how to do it right comes up.
Edit: actually, I got a better example. Anyone here who plays videogames, just sit down and have your parents try and play a game. Any game. See how long before that urge to tell them how to do it right comes up.
Yeah, the punch dimension is pretty stupid.
I understand being bothered by inaccuracies, yeah, it's fine if you aren't extreme about it.
I used to hang around some guys who argued quite angrily that all fiction was terrible unless it was scientifically 100% accurate...but they still liked a lot of unrealistic things, so they bent over backwards to prove that their favorite sci-fi concept was completely realistic, no matter how silly.
I lost all interest in criticizing shows for realism after that, lol
I understand being bothered by inaccuracies, yeah, it's fine if you aren't extreme about it.
I used to hang around some guys who argued quite angrily that all fiction was terrible unless it was scientifically 100% accurate...but they still liked a lot of unrealistic things, so they bent over backwards to prove that their favorite sci-fi concept was completely realistic, no matter how silly.
I lost all interest in criticizing shows for realism after that, lol
FlowersisBritish
fleurs n'est pas britannique
I'l be honest, I usually love stupid shit, and that Punch Dimension sound so much like my Jam I want to spread it on some toast.
This example is so god damn good I am going to save it in my pocket for later bits in life. Thank you Veelk.
This example is so god damn good I am going to save it in my pocket for later bits in life. Thank you Veelk.
If you're dissecting the powers too much none of its going to make sense since most of the characters break the laws of physics. Midoriya somehow had a 1 million percent punch and that makes no sense and somehow he didn't explode into a fine mist nor did the guy he punched either. I hope some of you don't watch Tengen Toppen Gurren Laggan because Spiral Energy will fry your brain trying to figure out what seems to be the power of pure charisma and is linked to our spiral shaped DNA.
I watched and loved TTGL
That is a show that can't function without nonsensical powers because it's thematic premise is that nonsensical optimism triumphs all.
It falls into that rare catergory where sometimes breaking the rules is the better storytelling mechanic. That's the exception though. Most of the time, it's beneficial to be as close to real as possible
I mean, I still don't like it on the basis that it's was a "Shit, I'm fucked! I better use this never foreshadowed, super attack that is more either more than 100% or I've been fucking with all of you this whole time!"
It was one of the few clear and very blatant tactical storytelling faults of the battles so far.
It wasn't perfect, but I'm alright with it since it had such serious consequences, and effectively can't happen again, not when Deku would cripple himself. I disagree that it wasn't foreshadowed, though maybe not foreshadowed enough.
The fan translations kind of fucked up too. The original pages showed that Deku's blew up his arms enough that the bones were visible underneath, and they edited that out while cleaning up the scanned pages. So the consequences were originally immediately apparent, but the bad quality made it look it it wasn't a big deal.
The fan translations kind of fucked up too. The original pages showed that Deku's blew up his arms enough that the bones were visible underneath, and they edited that out while cleaning up the scanned pages. So the consequences were originally immediately apparent, but the bad quality made it look it it wasn't a big deal.
fwiw, I thought it was implicitly clear that Deku's 100% punches weren't his full possible strength, even before that chapter came out. All Might does things that are more impressive than Deku, yet he's said to be weaker than he was at his prime? And that's when Deku's supposed to be stronger than him?
So it didn't feel like a complete asspull, especially once Horikoshi settled that "one million" was an exaggeration. And the consequences that followed were serious. He still could've set it up better, but yeah, I'm okay with it
So it didn't feel like a complete asspull, especially once Horikoshi settled that "one million" was an exaggeration. And the consequences that followed were serious. He still could've set it up better, but yeah, I'm okay with it
1. U: "That cloud is..."
D: "Oh, well then-"
2. U: "Eh?"
3. U: Too close!
4. SFX: Uh...
5. "AHHHH WE'RE FLOATING!"
"I'm falling I'm FALLING"
6. U: "Sorry... Sorry Deku..."
D: "It's fine!"
"SMASH!"
"I also wanna look like Deku!"
"Hey Ochako, I'm bac-"
1. D: "Hey, how do you release your floating?"
2. D: "Right, first you gotta put your hands like this, righ-"
3. U: "Wahhh!"
D: "Ahhh, Ochako, wait!"
Speaking of powers what exactly is One for All. Does Midoriya just become more and more proficient in using it till he can activate 100% at a level beyond what All Might achieved or does he starting actually transforming into a Superhero version of his normal form like Billy Batson in Captain Marvel/Shazam? If its not an actual transformation into a superior form then what exactly is All Might doing when he shifts between his normal weakened state and his hero one? I know he talked about it as similar to a guy sucking his gut in and flexing at the beach to show off but that doesn't really seem to fit for actually transforming.
I get the impression that the way All-Might was using it was unique and necessary to put on an inspiring appearance.
Perhaps she pulls a Biscuit from HxH and turns into a form fit for Jojo.
When it comes to how their quirks work, I don't think about how they work realistically (real science) since you'll just think about too much and it'll sour the experience. I mean it's a cartoon in the end, right? I just think of the rules of their quirk. What is the extent of their abilities and how they clash with other quirks.
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