Support NeoGAF

[Stephen Colbert]

Also OP should change username. The real Stephen Colbert says witty things and is very likable.

We're having a discussion here, about handheld gaming, next gen gpu contenders, and in particular the pros and cons of smartphones vs handheld gaming devices and what the market wants from these devices.

If you have nothing to add, then I suggest that you troll elsewhere. That goes double for everyone else here trying to derail the discussion rather than contribute to it.

 

[Dabanton]

Another Stephen Colbert tech thread i knew already of the madness contained within and he didn't disappoint.

 

[redmodel]

Project Denver would also be powerful enough to decode HVDs at 4k resolution aka film resolution video. It makes far too much sense for movie studios to use these HVDs to distribute their films to movie theater than the current massive expensive spindles they use now. The more movie theaters that use these discs, the more the costs fall and the more viable it becomes for consumers.

I'm a bit confused by this. Theatres already have a well placed infrastructure for digital cinema.

It's called DCP, digital cinema picture or projection. I can't remember. All those 3d films you're seeing in theatres are digital projections. AMC plans on completely eliminating film projectors within the next 2 years.

DCPs use motionjpg for compression. I can't remember exact numbers. But it's about 70GB for a 2k feature, and I think 200GB or so for a 4k feature.

They ship out in regular hard drives and very sturdy military grade enclosures.

This will not change anytime soon, and it works very well. The systems may eventually go to 6 or 8k, but the distribution of the media will stay the same, and it'll most likely stick with the motionjpg codec.

Is 4k useless at the home? Yes. But I like it because you can get full 1080p Passive 3d with it.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

I agree with that. However, it's not just about time spent playing. You can't concentrate as much when playing on a bus, because you have to keep looking to see if you're at your stop yet. That means games with low concentration requirements are better for mobile play. The traditional hardcore games are very concentration heavy, and my experience is that it's difficult to really get into a game without missing your bus stop.

The Bus isn't the only place to game. And almost all of the successful iOS games (Flight Control, Doodle Jump, Angry Birds etc) require quite a bit of concentration.

The fact is there's plenty of games and genres of games that are a lot of fun in short bursts and yet suck royally with touch controls alone. Fighters, Racers, Platformers with short levels and a number of others all fall in this category.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

DCPs use motionjpg for compression. I can't remember exact numbers. But it's about 70GB for a 2k feature, and I think 200GB or so for a 4k feature.

They ship out in regular hard drives and very sturdy military grade enclosures.

This will not change anytime soon, and it works very well. The systems may eventually go to 6 or 8k, but the distribution of the media will stay the same, and it'll most likely stick with the motionjpg codec.

Is 4k useless at the home? Yes. But I like it because you can get full 1080p Passive 3d with it.

Yes, they work fine, but they are no where near as cheap to mass produce and transport as a simple HVD disc would be. Not a big deal if you're talking about one hard drive in a military grade enclosure. But if you're dealing with distributing your movie to tens of thousands of cinema theaters all over the world, the costs add up.

Eventually, it makes sense for cinemas to transition to HVDs.

 

[clav]

We're having a discussion here, about handheld gaming, next gen gpu contenders, and in particular the pros and cons of smartphones vs handheld gaming devices and what the market wants from these devices.

If you have nothing to add, then I suggest that you take your trolling elsewhere.

I'm not trolling as I don't agree with your assessment.

How likely is it that Sony will choose Nvidia again for its console? If Sony decides to partner with AMD, then your speculation goes out the window. You make it seem like Nvidia is the only one innovating with Denver as AMD has its next gen line of chips called Southern Islands and other unannounced projects. By the sound of it, Denver seems to be a processor for mobile applications only.

In the past gen, consoles have used state-of-the-art ground breaking tech that were not available to mainline PCs until 2-3 years later. I suspect the same thing will happen the next generation as well to compete. This time around, it'll have to be a removal of some bottleneck bridge (possibly everything on one chip, CPU+GPU). We saw an example of this last gen with the Xbox 360 how providing 10 MB eDRAM made AA really easy.

A high-quality all-in-one chip will be a game changer for the whole gaming industry, PC and console gamers alike.

edited after breakfast.

 

[Rolf NB]

Denver is a SoC for phones and tablets. It will never be used in a home console.

 

[1-D_FTW]

I'm not trolling as I don't agree with your assessment as it just sounds like take the tech coming in the fall in the machine with last gen's design.

How likely is it that Sony will choose Nvidia again for its console? If Sony decides to partner with AMD, then your speculation goes out the window. You make it seem like Nvidia is the only one innovating with Denver as AMD has its next gen line of chips called Southern Islands and other unannounced projects.

In the past gen, consoles in the past have used state-of-the-art ground breaking tech that were not available to mainline PCs until 2-3 years later. I suspect the same thing will happen the next generation as well to compete. This time around, it'll have to be a removal of some bottleneck bridge (possibly everything on one chip, CPU+GPU). We saw an example of this last gen with the Xbox 360 how providing 10 MB eDRAM made AA really easy.

A high-quality all-in-one chip will be a game changer for the whole gaming industry.

It did? Was this memo to the developers lost?

 

[redmodel]

Yes, they work fine, but they are no where near as cheap to mass produce and transport as a simple HVD disc would be. Not a big deal if you're talking about one hard drive in a military grade enclosure. But if you're dealing with distributing your movie to tens of thousands of cinema theaters all over the world, the costs add up.

Eventually, it makes sense for cinemas to transition to HVDs.

You're thinking too much like a consumer. The costs for distribution has already gone down millions.

I don't know what deluxe charges for bulk prints. But I know a single print copied would be about $1500 or so. To ship it, would be about $100 to $200. So times that by 4000 at the most. So they're already saving so much.

All DCP servers have USB and DVD drives. A lot trailers can be quickly sent on either if those.

It's not hard to replace a DVD drive. But there's no way in hell it'll catch on unless those HVD drives come in enclosures like xdcam discs.

But, you're also forgetting that hard drives in military cases get reused.

Also, theatres rarely play any film of the drive. 99.9% of the time it gets copied to the server. You think managers are going to trust copying from an optical media to their server and not be paranoid of dust or scratches. $1000's of dollars are at stake each night.

Xdcam discs are blu rays in an enclosure. Used by professionals. Absolutely had zero affect on what blu ray cost to the consumer.

 

[clav]

It did? Was this memo to the developers lost?

I thought that was a well-known in terms of why 360 games look a tad better than the PS3's for multiplatform releases.

 

[Thirteen]

What about the Cell? nnnnooooooo

 

[Stephen Colbert]

What about the Cell? nnnnooooooo

The cell is probably dead. Either that, or Sony might find a way to embed that into a GPU rather than the a15.

But CGPU is the future. It removes a major bottleneck and the GPU is the bulk of what most modern games use so it makes sense to devote the majority of transistors to that component.

 

[tokkun]

Denver is a SoC for phones and tablets. It will never be used in a home console.

1. It is not an SoC.
2. It is targeted at the high-performance computing segment, not mobile.
3. Nvidia already has a mobile SoC architecture called Tegra.

 

[tokkun]

But CGPU is the future. It removes a major bottleneck and the GPU is the bulk of what most modern games use so it makes sense to devote the majority of transistors to that component.

"Fusion" architectures are fine for low-end graphics, but it's hardly a foregone conclusion that they replace the discrete CPU/GPU architecture any time in the near future. There are still some major hurdles to introducing a full enthusiast-level GPU onto a CPU die: Yield rates, power draw, and heat dissipation for a start.

 

[googleplex]

I thought that was a well-known in terms of why 360 games look a tad better than the PS3's for multiplatform releases.

Oh god..... So much FUD in this thread.

 

[Ninja Dom]

What is killing the Xperia Play at UK retail is the price and positioning.

It sells on £30 contracts, for which you can also get a Samsung Galaxy SII and an HTC Sensation. It isn't available on Business contracts as it isn't considered a "Business phone" by the networks.

At £30 a month for two years, and with no cheap Pay As You Go option, nobody is buying the Xperia Play.

Its too expensive for kids, competes with other Androids at the same price, and isn't considered a "Business Phone". Sales are at almost zero!!

 

[[Nintex]]

What is killing the Xperia Play at UK retail is the price and positioning.

It sells on £30 contracts, for which you can also get a Samsung Galaxy SII and an HTC Sensation. It isn't available on Business contracts as it isn't considered a "Business phone" by the networks.

At £30 a month for two years, and with no cheap Pay As You Go option, nobody is buying the Xperia Play.

Its too expensive for kids, competes with other Androids at the same price, and isn't considered a "Business Phone". Sales are at almost zero!!

Hahahaha oh wow those dumbfucks at Sony never miss a trick.

Let's see how the S1 and S2 will end up.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

Denver is a SoC for phones and tablets. It will never be used in a home console.

Did you just say that Project Denver is for phones and tablets!

HAHAHAHAHAHAHA.

Good god, where did you pull that tidbit of info from!?

 

[zomgbbqftw]

Hahahaha oh wow those dumbfucks at Sony never miss a trick.

Let's see how the S1 and S2 will end up.

Sony Ericsson.

The S1 looks average, but the S2 looks very interesting. Supposedly both ship with 3.2 out of the box as well, so when they release in October they will have a higher version of Android than 90% of Android tablets.

 

[clav]

"Fusion" architectures are fine for low-end graphics, but it's hardly a foregone conclusion that they replace the discrete CPU/GPU architecture any time in the near future. There are still some major hurdles to introducing a full enthusiast-level GPU onto a CPU die: Yield rates, power draw, and heat dissipation for a start.

I wouldn't say it's a ridiculous stretch to consider that Fusion applications are the future as there is still R&D work on that. What's trickling onto the market now is only the beginning.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

We already know for a fact that Vita is using a quad core Power VR series 5 GPU, so you can forget about Power VR Series 6.

No device will be using one of those until at least 2013.

BTW, just a heads up, iSupply's numbers are bullshit.

 

[AranhaHunter]

Isn't 5 already set in stone due to the FCC clearance? Maybe that "+" sign there is because Sony did some customization so that it wouldn't look so dated compared to the 6. I think expecting Vita to have A6 is unrealistic and downright not gonna happen.

 

[bigtroyjon]

Fermi retailed for $299 at launch. The retailer price always include a significant wholesaler markup, a large retailer markup, marketing cost and shipping and packaging costs, which combined usually account for about half the final retail price of any product.

I stopped reading after this part because it shows that all you are doing is making up facts in order to support your ideas because real facts aren't available.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

BTW, just a heads up, iSupply's numbers are bullshit.

Why do you say that? Do you have anything to back up that statement that iSupply is bullshit?

 

[Auto_aim1]

Why do you say that? Do you have anything to back up that statement that iSupply is bullshit?

They said 3DS costs $103.xx to produce. But Nintendo is taking a loss after the price drop to $170, so yeah.

 

[Mr.Squirrel]

They said 3DS costs $103.xx to produce. But Nintendo is taking a loss after the price drop to $170, so yeah.

Stop quoting facts Jesus!!!! You're ruining the thread

 

[Instro]

Why do you say that? Do you have anything to back up that statement that iSupply is bullshit?

Anything pulled from isupply is generally bad guesswork. It's like using [banned chartz site] as data for game sales.

 

[wsippel]

Why do you say that? Do you have anything to back up that statement that iSupply is bullshit?

Simple. They have absolutely no idea how much the parts cost because they don't know the contracts if the parts are not off-the-shelf (which is rather common with embedded systems). They also guess the parts, which tends to go very wrong all the time. And last but not least, they have a vested interest in making any device look as cheap as possible.

 

[Cruzader]

jeff_rigby brother?

Holy shit! Hahahahaha

 

[Stephen Colbert]

They said 3DS costs $103.xx to produce. But Nintendo is taking a loss after the price drop to $170, so yeah.

It could still cost somewhere around $103 to produce.

Shipping, marketing, packaging, paying your employees, replacing broken screens, electricity and rental feels for your factories and warehouses, r&d, media relations, the cut the wholesaler gets, the cut the retailer gets and a dozen other things all add to that price.

A pair of nike shoes only costs a couple of bucks to produce, but the extraneous costs add to that.

 

[zomgbbqftw]

It could still cost somewhere around $103 to produce.

Shipping, marketing, packaging, paying your employees, replacing broken screens, electricity and rental feels for your factories and warehouses, r&d, media relations, the cut the wholesaler gets, the cut the retailer gets and a dozen other things all add to that price.

A pair of nike shoes only costs a couple of bucks to produce, but the extraneous costs add to that.

All included in the on the shelf price vs cost sum.

 

[wsippel]

It could still cost somewhere around $103 to produce.

It doesn't. The BoM is proven wrong, makes no fucking sense and was pure guesswork to begin with.

 

[Lagspike_exe]

iSupply is a joke.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

You guys don't actually believe Target pays Nintendo $169 for each 3DS they get do you? They get it from a wholesaler for a cost a decent bit cheaper than the retail cost. One of my friends owns a shop and has a wholesalers license, an expensive license that authorizes him to buy a product direct from a wholesaler. He knows how much cheaper a product actually costs vs its retail shelf price. A price that he is prevented by NDAs from disclosing.

That wholesaler in turn gets the device for cheaper than what Target pays them for it.

Also do you think marketing is free, customer support is free, replacing defective systems is free, processing returns is free, importing and selling a device in another country is free?

It doesn't. The BoM is proven wrong, makes no fucking sense and was pure guesswork to begin with.

How do you know that?

People are completely misreading what Nintendo said to fit their own agenda.

Unless I missed a press release, Nintendo never once said that each 3DS costs over $169 to produce.

What they said was that selling the system at a retail price of $169, they stand to lose money on it. That tells us very little about the actual manufacturing costs.

You have no knowledge of how much of that $169+ cost is attributed to actual production costs and how much of it is due to the dozens of costs that exist beyond purely the manufacturing costs.

 

[Unknown Soldier]

It is public knowledge that Vita uses a quad-core ARM Cortex A-9 CPU and a PowerVR SGX543MP4+ GPU.

 

[Pimpbaa]

If you have nothing to add, then I suggest that you troll elsewhere. That goes double for everyone else here trying to derail the discussion rather than contribute to it.

Your thread is one big troll (or you are just incredibly stupid). No point in speculation when you can't even get the facts right.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

Pimpbaa, certainly earned your forum tag didn't you?

The PS Vita's final specs haven't been officially confirmed yet. All we know is what the device at it's iteration back in January was, but the only recent news has been that the PS Vita won't be out in 2011 as previously anticipated (atleast in North America and Europe for sure, it's unclear if it's delayed in Japan as well).

As to why the device isn't making the 2011 holiday window, it's anyone's guess, but revisions is certainly one possibility.

 

[lupinko]

Vita is coming out this year (in Japan) for sure. It's only in the west it's going to be moved into 2012. This is already common knowledge.

 

[Lazy8s]

Series 6 was released in time for end products targeting the latter half of 2012 at the earliest.

No Apple A6. No Vita.

As mentioned, nVidia got an architectural (ARMv7 ISA) license for Denver's general purpose side, not an A15. It should be fine if scaled to a console solution, but a Rogue solution would be better.

Stop paying attention to TSMC's boasts of how far along their new processes are. 28nm will really only be feasible for SoCs in the latter half of 2012 (OMAP5) at the earliest. Do the math for how much longer the next processes after that will be from them.

 

[ofx360]

Pimpbaa, certainly earned your forum tag didn't you?

The PS Vita's final specs haven't been officially confirmed yet. All we know is what the device at it's iteration back in January was, but the only recent news has been that the PS Vita won't be out in 2011 as previously anticipated (atleast in North America and Europe for sure, it's unclear if it's delayed in Japan as well).

As to why the device isn't making the 2011 holiday window, it's anyone's guess, but revisions is certainly one possibility.

I swear you're trolling..... FCC has already cleared the hardware and it is coming out this year in Japan

 

[brain_stew]

I pass a motion that anyone producing that Nnvidia DP performance graph on the gaming side be banned on the spot. How many times..........

 

[Gav47]

That's cool but I can't see any of the three console makers going with anything but AMD, even Nvidia knows it, thats why they are making such a big push into the mobile and tablet markets. I also can't see Sony abandoning the Cell architecture in favor of a ARM one, its still a powerful platform and will continue to be if they update it.

 

[Durante]

And last but not least, they have a vested interest in making any device look as cheap as possible.

Why?

 

[Unknown Soldier]

That's cool but I can't see any of the three console makers going with anything but AMD, even Nvidia knows it, thats why they are making such a big push into the mobile and tablet markets. I also can't see Sony abandoning the Cell architecture in favor of a ARM one, its still a powerful platform and will continue to be if they update it.

There's nothing wrong with the Cell processor. The PS3 has issues with the weak GPU and architectural problems, but the Cell processor was way, way more CPU than the PS3 needed and a multiplied Cell design with 2 PPE's and 16 SPE's would still be a monster for gaming use.

There's no reason to use anything ARM-based in a home console, the thing sits there by or under your TV and doesn't move, a mobile-focused CPU like ARM architecture would be hopelessly underpowered for a home console.

Personally I'd like to see Colbert be offered a ban bet from anybody that the Vita won't have the already publicly-known specs that we've all mentioned here. He won't accept it, which is how we know he's trolling.

 

[makingmusic476]

You guys don't actually believe Target pays Nintendo $169 for each 3DS they get do you? They get it from a wholesaler for a cost a decent bit cheaper than the retail cost. One of my friends owns a shop and has a wholesalers license, an expensive license that authorizes him to buy a product direct from a wholesaler. He knows how much cheaper a product actually costs vs its retail shelf price. A price that he is prevented by NDAs from disclosing.

That wholesaler in turn gets the device for cheaper than what Target pays them for it.

Also do you think marketing is free, customer support is free, replacing defective systems is free, processing returns is free, importing and selling a device in another country is free?



How do you know that?

People are completely misreading what Nintendo said to fit their own agenda.

Unless I missed a press release, Nintendo never once said that each 3DS costs over $169 to produce.

What they said was that selling the system at a retail price of $169, they stand to lose money on it. That tells us very little about the actual manufacturing costs.

You have no knowledge of how much of that $169+ cost is attributed to actual production costs and how much of it is due to the dozens of costs that exist beyond purely the manufacturing costs.

This is true for most hardware devices, but not consoles (at least not in the US). Retailers generally sell hardware at cost, for similar reasons as to why the actual console manufacturers sell units at a loss. They expect to make that money back via games and accessories.

For most hardware, that is not the case, but it definitely is for consoles.

 

[Waikis]

This is true for most hardware devices, but not consoles (at least not in the US). Retailers generally sell hardware at cost, for similar reasons as to why the actual console manufacturers sell units at a loss. They expect to make that money back via games and accessories.

For most hardware, that is not the case, but it definitely is for consoles.

The same thing applies in Australia as well regarding game retailers selling consoles at a really really slim margin.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

JoetheBlow,

You're right. Apple lead while everyone else sat around twiddling their thumbs when it comes to designing a decent OS for smartphones, and Apple are now reaping the rewards of that.

But they are by no means bullet proof, and dozens of smartphones succeed each year that are not made by apple.

It's such a massive and critical market, that it would stupid of Sony Ericsson to sit it out completely. What SE needs to do is lead by doing something unique better than anyone else has.

The Xperia Play is a good idea, but fatally flawed for two reasons...

Lack of actual analog nubs akin to the 3DSs.

Lack of worthwhile software or gaming support, which can easily be fixed by producing an Xperia Play 2 that is capable of playing all Playstation Vita games.

Fix those two things, and I think SE would have a pretty substantial hit on their hands.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

That's cool but I can't see any of the three console makers going with anything but AMD, even Nvidia knows it, thats why they are making such a big push into the mobile and tablet markets. I also can't see Sony abandoning the Cell architecture in favor of a ARM one, its still a powerful platform and will continue to be if they update it.

Sony could easily go with NVIDIA. Doing so and embedding a small cell into the PS4 would be the easiest way to ensure backward compatibility.

If Sony goes with AMD, we can kiss backward compatibility good bye.

Besides, NVIDIA is doing some incredibly innovative stuff in the graphics space and is ahead of AMD in a lot of areas.

 

[Stephen Colbert]

Has the Vita even gotten a release date yet, for anywhere. If it's supposed to be out within 3 months, shouldn't a date have been announced by now?

 

[Cruzader]

Has the Vita even gotten a release date yet, for anywhere. If it's supposed to be out within 3 months, shouldn't a date have been announced by now?

Gamescon? Ain't that next week? Dude, you keep jumping the gun. Use common sense with avaiable information and you'll get a decent timeframe and region. (it's already been said tons of times in this thread)